Lats & Benching

[ExtraMile]

Was at the gym today, has one of the worst sessions in a long time. Anyway I finished a set of 175lbs x 4 on the flat bench. My gym owner who Im pretty friendly with comes up to me asking why i benched with an arched back. I explained it helps use more of the body in the lift and let u use hip drive, also the powerlifting style of benching I use lets me use the lats as the foundation to press from. He asked what I meant by that and I said about being a PL bench you keep the elbows in contracts the lats and then they act kind of like a spring board to explode from your chest. He told me this is BS and started askin me shit like well is that eccentric contraction or concentric.

Loads of this shit about the lats activating in a benchpress isnt anatomicaly possible. I told him I didnt mean the lats contract more like compress so as to speak. He said benching with an arc is just a powerlifters way to cheat on the bench cuz you dont have to press as far and he spent like 5 mins arguing with me telling me why is it impossible for lats to move in bench. He said if the lats activated then why dont u get a big back from benching. I tryed to explain i dont mean they contract and relax but he just wouldnt have it.

Then he went on to say me doing weighted situps is a waste of time and also my deadlift work is shit. I posted a video of my form in my journal if anyone wants to check it out. He said the way I get my knees under the bar slightly and slide the bar up my knees (i do this so I can situp straight more) will damage my back.

I told him that my just pulling all the way up (like he demonstrated) just made my back round and not be able to take the load and he said that might well be from benching with an arched back.

Then I went on to do 1 more set of lighter bench and got pinned under the bar lol.

So what does everybody think about deadlift form and lats and benching? Its real hard to know who to trust the people in the gym or the people on here...

 

[ExtraMile]

btw Im thinking of getting a starting strength book by rippetoe and using that as my guide from now seeing how that goes... which one should I get if any?

 

[bblazer]

Buy two copies of the book. One for you and one for the gym owner.

Don't sweat it. There are lots of people in gyms that have opinions. There is a lot of what I like to call "bro-ology" there. Very few people take the time to actually understand what they are doing and why. Most just do what their buddy told them to, or what they read in Muscle & Fiction magazine.

In short, you are fine, keep doing what you are doing and don't worry about it.

B-

 

[SouthernLord]

I have an online degree in Broscience from Bromo University

You should really buy Starting Strength! Great book.

 

[SaiBoT]

That's why you had a bad workout today. Yes buy the Starting Strength by Rippetoe and Only the Strong Shall Survive by Bill Starr.

The downside of making friends at the gym it's people start to think they can impose their will over yours and you start feeling bad working out while they are around, it happened to me on my early years, but later when people started giving me shit about why do I go all the way down on squats and why I do deadlifts if isn't it bad for the spine, shit like that I say, either one of two things 1- did ask you for advice, if I'm really pissed off or 2) sometimes I have these kind of workouts to push myself, you should try it sometime

 

[fortunatesun]

This is where he gets the idea that you can't activate lats when benching:

It's a concept based on the scientific work of Sir Charles Scott Sherrington, who won the Nobel Prize in 1932 for his contributions in physiology and neuroscience. Sherring-ton's law of reciprocal innervation states that "for every neural activation of a muscle, there is a corresponding inhibition of the opposing muscle." This means when you work your chest muscles, the opposite back muscles are forced to relax, thereby resting.

Entire article:Muscle Building - Men's Health

In the eccentric part of the lift, when you're bringing the bar down, is when the lats come into play. Sometimes it's said that what you want to do is to 'row' the bar down. Obviously, then, the stronger your lats, the better you can do this and the stronger your rep will be.

It's impossible to diagnose what's wrong with your bench w/o seeing it but I'm wondering about your shoulder blades. Remember to bring them together and down. This is the counterpart to keeping your hips tight on the bench and ensures that your arch will be a tight one.

 

[ExtraMile]

bblazer - thankyou, Ill carry on doing what I do, restart this week and just eat like an animal this weekend and bust my ass on monday. The main reason the gym owner was talking to me was because he was doing the rowing machine which is right next to the benchpress and i had no collars on with my warmup sets so he stopped and told me to put them on then started talkin about arch... lats... then telling me my DL's were BS and shit like that. He is an ex pro soccer player too lol.

SL - I really think I will, which version? 1 or 2?

Korin - its real hard though to just ignore people. I know the owner quite well I did some work experience with him. Its also hard when 3 people have told me so far not to bench with an arch and in this gym theres nobody to back me up lol, I wish I could train withsome of you guys, doing all this person to person would be so much easier....

fortunate - whats wrong with my bench is my rotator cuff is fucked so Iv had to stay off tricep work for 3 weeks and my chest strength has been going thruogh the roof lately and the triceps are just so far behind i cant lock my reps out. I also ate like a pussy today which didnt help.


In all Ill keep doing what Im doing and try get a better quality camera to film some more shit and show you guys, thanks alot

 

[Hellawulf]

I watched video 2 of you deadlift form, the one you tought was better, I don't think you have bad form, I think your somewhat bouncy and sometimes your butt comes up faster than your back or your back comes up faster than your butt, but overall its good.

 

[SouthernLord]

bblazer - thankyou, Ill carry on doing what I do, restart this week and just eat like an animal this weekend and bust my ass on monday. The main reason the gym owner was talking to me was because he was doing the rowing machine which is right next to the benchpress and i had no collars on with my warmup sets so he stopped and told me to put them on then started talkin about arch... lats... then telling me my DL's were BS and shit like that. He is an ex pro soccer player too lol.

SL - I really think I will, which version? 1 or 2?

Korin - its real hard though to just ignore people. I know the owner quite well I did some work experience with him. Its also hard when 3 people have told me so far not to bench with an arch and in this gym theres nobody to back me up lol, I wish I could train withsome of you guys, doing all this person to person would be so much easier....

fortunate - whats wrong with my bench is my rotator cuff is fucked so Iv had to stay off tricep work for 3 weeks and my chest strength has been going thruogh the roof lately and the triceps are just so far behind i cant lock my reps out. I also ate like a pussy today which didnt help.


In all Ill keep doing what Im doing and try get a better quality camera to film some more shit and show you guys, thanks alot

I have the second edition

 

[SouthernLord]

bblazer - thankyou, Ill carry on doing what I do, restart this week and just eat like an animal this weekend and bust my ass on monday. The main reason the gym owner was talking to me was because he was doing the rowing machine which is right next to the benchpress and i had no collars on with my warmup sets so he stopped and told me to put them on then started talkin about arch... lats... then telling me my DL's were BS and shit like that. He is an ex pro soccer player too lol.

SL - I really think I will, which version? 1 or 2?

Korin - its real hard though to just ignore people. I know the owner quite well I did some work experience with him. Its also hard when 3 people have told me so far not to bench with an arch and in this gym theres nobody to back me up lol, I wish I could train withsome of you guys, doing all this person to person would be so much easier....

fortunate - whats wrong with my bench is my rotator cuff is fucked so Iv had to stay off tricep work for 3 weeks and my chest strength has been going thruogh the roof lately and the triceps are just so far behind i cant lock my reps out. I also ate like a pussy today which didnt help.

In all Ill keep doing what Im doing and try get a better quality camera to film some more shit and show you guys, thanks alot

What are you doing to address the rotator cuff situation? What kind of upperbody warm up are you doing prior to training?

 

[ExtraMile]

I watched video 2 of you deadlift form, the one you tought was better, I don't think you have bad form, I think your somewhat bouncy and sometimes your butt comes up faster than your back or your back comes up faster than your butt, but overall its good.

Yah my whole problem is that if I just pull then my legs straighted and instead of the power being transmitted to the bar and my back pulling backwards at the same time my hips and ass just shoot up high so I end up in a position kind of like a RDL. To be able to pull my back up at the same time I have to really sit back but doing that all the work is on my quads and not back. I have no idea how I got like this or how it happened either. My spinal erectors are pretty thick too so I have no idea what is the weak link...

SL - whats the differance between 1&2 ?

 

[SouthernLord]

Yah my whole problem is that if I just pull then my legs straighted and instead of the power being transmitted to the bar and my back pulling backwards at the same time my hips and ass just shoot up high so I end up in a position kind of like a RDL. To be able to pull my back up at the same time I have to really sit back but doing that all the work is on my quads and not back. I have no idea how I got like this or how it happened either. My spinal erectors are pretty thick too so I have no idea what is the weak link...

SL - whats the differance between 1&2 ?

The 2nd has more info I believe. You should really buy it. It will help you learn the proper way to deadlift. Your hips should not be coming up like you describe. SS will help you figure the correct form out.

 

[ExtraMile]

Got any idea how much it is in £ ? I cant find it on the internet in the UK...

 

[fortunatesun]

Here we are, EM, hot off the presses. Some reading until SS arrives :

TMUSCLE.com | Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure

It's got 9 min video where Dave Tate give you some rant and goes over some common gym mistakes.

And there's an article that goes over set up plus a 6 week program designed to get you on track.
If you're not planning on using a shirt, don't go higher than 2 board press.

 

[SouthernLord]

Here we are, EM, hot off the presses. Some reading until SS arrives :

TMUSCLE.com | Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure

It's got 9 min video where Dave Tate give you some rant and goes over some common gym mistakes.

And there's an article that goes over set up plus a 6 week program designed to get you on track.
If you're not planning on using a shirt, don't go higher than 2 board press.

I really like his tip on letting the bar set your lockout before decent. I cut at least 1-1/2 off my stroke Friday just by doing this. Good shit.

 

[SaiBoT]

Here we are, EM, hot off the presses. Some reading until SS arrives :

TMUSCLE.com | Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure

It's got 9 min video where Dave Tate give you some rant and goes over some common gym mistakes.

And there's an article that goes over set up plus a 6 week program designed to get you on track.
If you're not planning on using a shirt, don't go higher than 2 board press.

Honestly I don't know why aren't you a mentor yet! Good bro k!

I'll have to pass around some more before I can give it to you.

 

[fortunatesun]

Thanks for the kind thought but I'd have to say you'd be the better choice. You're on here more, very knowlegable, and know how to contruct a program, a rare skill.

 

[ExtraMile]

Here we are, EM, hot off the presses. Some reading until SS arrives :

TMUSCLE.com | Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure

It's got 9 min video where Dave Tate give you some rant and goes over some common gym mistakes.

And there's an article that goes over set up plus a 6 week program designed to get you on track.
If you're not planning on using a shirt, don't go higher than 2 board press.

OK bro looks pretty sick. Well Im taking a week off after that Ill reset my week of weight progression and do this week again, if I fail then Ill start this 6 week bench program. If not then Ill continue until I fail again and then do this 6 week program.

Only thing is, are 1 and 3 rep maxes ok? Alot of of people say at my age (14) avoid anything lower than 5 reps...

 

[fortunatesun]

Five is right. If you fail at < it's OK but it's not something you want to make a habit of. Really, there's no need to max out at your age due to your rate of development. Five reps will give you plenty of stimulus. At 16 you can bring it down to 3.

 

[ExtraMile]

Five is right. If you fail at < it's OK but it's not something you want to make a habit of. Really, there's no need to max out at your age due to your rate of development. Five reps will give you plenty of stimulus. At 16 you can bring it down to 3.

OK well in the 6 week bench program you end up doing a max set of 1 rep after a few weeks... So I should I do this program? Or if not how can/should I alter it?

Oh and fortunate, Im on a bill star program right now where on mondays I do 1 set of 3 for benchpress and on fridays 1 set of 3 for squats. I should be allright on this shouldnt I? Most of the time I could get maybe 1 more rep out of that weight anyway...

 

[fortunatesun]

Bill Starr is fine.

A five rep max is OK. Or maybe a 3 once or twice. I don't believe Tate's program to be a set in stone kind of thing but more a generic cure all for the typical gym bencher. Figure if there's something you're not doing and take it from there.

 

[LucSulla]

The only thing in that video that doesn't work for me is pushing back toward the hooks. I like sticking with keeping the bar path as close to straight up the y axis as possible and trying to push towards my feet. I have been doing the lockout thing at the top since I watched another of his bench vids, and that bit really is choice. I think it was SL that put up some of his other vids, and I could tell an almost immediate change in the pressure on my RCs. Tate is always chockfull of good advice.

 

[ExtraMile]

The problem I am having with my bench right now is lockout, since I hurt my RC I have had to stop dips and cant do CGBP, I have noticed a big differance. Maybe its my technique though, I get the bar up off my chest fine but its pretty much when I get half way up, kinda like the start position of a floor press that I get stuck. Ill video my form next time I bench and post it up...

 

[LucSulla]

The problem I am having with my bench right now is lockout, since I hurt my RC I have had to stop dips and cant do CGBP, I have noticed a big differance. Maybe its my technique though, I get the bar up off my chest fine but its pretty much when I get half way up, kinda like the start position of a floor press that I get stuck. Ill video my form next time I bench and post it up...

That is 100 percent normal. What you have described is the sticking point that most of us have trouble with. Where you are sticking is where the work is transferring from your pecs to your shoulders and triceps. That is the weakest point of the lift and why developing explosiveness during the initial push is so important. The more momentum you gain coming off your chest, the quicker you move through this sticking point. Most of us can easily complete the rep after passing this point in the motion.

 

[artificialaspirations]

just finished starting strength. Wish it wouldve been available 15 yrs ago, I'd be alot better off.

 

[SouthernLord]

just finished starting strength. Wish it wouldve been available 15 yrs ago, I'd be alot better off.

"Practical Programming for Strength Training" by Rippetoe and Kilgore is another great read.

 

[artificialaspirations]

got it. I'm on strong enough right now and that one will be read within the next week. I really like his style and attitude. He has completely changed my outlook towards lifting and motivated me greatly.

 

[ExtraMile]

That is 100 percent normal. What you have described is the sticking point that most of us have trouble with. Where you are sticking is where the work is transferring from your pecs to your shoulders and triceps. That is the weakest point of the lift and why developing explosiveness during the initial push is so important. The more momentum you gain coming off your chest, the quicker you move through this sticking point. Most of us can easily complete the rep after passing this point in the motion.

Yeah I thought it would be quite common, Its annoying through I used to have real strong triceps and could CGBP more than I could standard bench lol. So what would you do to help lockout? Floor presses seem a good idea as that is pretty much the starting point of where I get stuck...

 

[LucSulla]

Yeah I thought it would be quite common, Its annoying through I used to have real strong triceps and could CGBP more than I could standard bench lol. So what would you do to help lockout? Floor presses seem a good idea as that is pretty much the starting point of where I get stuck...

I kind of agree with what Dave Tate said in that video about pin presses, floor presses, and board presses. Most people don't need them to get passed a problem; they need to check their technique. If your technique is perfect, and you are still getting no where, try benching with 60 or 70 percent of your max, but really concentrate on exploding off your chest (in a controlled manner with proper form of course) when you begin to push up. You could do that for sets of 8 or 10 maybe once a week as an assist exercise.

The key isn't training the stick point as much as developing an explosive push. That is another reason tightness is so essential. When the bar comes to your chest, your whole body should be taught like a long bow - feet planted, lats squeezed, triceps tight. When you come back up, you are letting go of the arrow, but with control. Just slinging the weight up will sooner of later (probably sooner) hurt something, but learning to release all of that tension with control will push you through the stick and get your numbers moving up again.

 

[joe d]

Was at the gym today, has one of the worst sessions in a long time. Anyway I finished a set of 175lbs x 4 on the flat bench. My gym owner who Im pretty friendly with comes up to me asking why i benched with an arched back. I explained it helps use more of the body in the lift and let u use hip drive, also the powerlifting style of benching I use lets me use the lats as the foundation to press from. He asked what I meant by that and I said about being a PL bench you keep the elbows in contracts the lats and then they act kind of like a spring board to explode from your chest. He told me this is BS and started askin me shit like well is that eccentric contraction or concentric.

Loads of this shit about the lats activating in a benchpress isnt anatomicaly possible. I told him I didnt mean the lats contract more like compress so as to speak. He said benching with an arc is just a powerlifters way to cheat on the bench cuz you dont have to press as far and he spent like 5 mins arguing with me telling me why is it impossible for lats to move in bench. He said if the lats activated then why dont u get a big back from benching. I tryed to explain i dont mean they contract and relax but he just wouldnt have it.

Then he went on to say me doing weighted situps is a waste of time and also my deadlift work is shit. I posted a video of my form in my journal if anyone wants to check it out. He said the way I get my knees under the bar slightly and slide the bar up my knees (i do this so I can situp straight more) will damage my back.

I told him that my just pulling all the way up (like he demonstrated) just made my back round and not be able to take the load and he said that might well be from benching with an arched back.

Then I went on to do 1 more set of lighter bench and got pinned under the bar lol.

So what does everybody think about deadlift form and lats and benching? Its real hard to know who to trust the people in the gym or the people on here...

he sounds like a typical moron. some people are clueless, they think that the way they train, eat, recover is the only way it can be done and everybody needs to follow them. that closemindedness also hinders their own progress.

 

[ExtraMile]

he sounds like a typical moron. some people are clueless, they think that the way they train, eat, recover is the only way it can be done and everybody needs to follow them. that closemindedness also hinders their own progress.

Yeah he is a really nice friendly guy but an asshole at times, thats the second time has come up to me mid set and given me a lecture about lifting. That time after me talking to him and him arguing back he just goes 'well all i can say is you have some wierd training information there mate' and walked off.

Whilst benching I can feel my lats go hard and tense and compressed, I bench the same as him and he's got 25+ years on me anyway which I might point out next time he talks to me about benching...