Knee issues....

[superqt4u2nv]

ok my last couple of sqaut sessions my knees are clicking like there is no tomorrow. I have had some serious pain as of late even going light. I think it could be the increased cardio. Anyways I need some advice what is going to be something that is low impact but still hit the quads decently.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

i would keep the squats but evaluate your form..
try using a wider stance and sitting back more...
also give yourself some rest and go light when making form adjustments

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

ok my last couple of sqaut sessions my knees are clicking like there is no tomorrow. I have had some serious pain as of late even going light. I think it could be the increased cardio. Anyways I need some advice what is going to be something that is low impact but still hit the quads decently.

My knees used to be in much pain when I did a lot of cardio - biking (upright bike). I used to sometimes even feel pain/strain behind my knees. My knee pain has greatly diminished since I have started doing different types of cardio like pulling sled. Changing the squat stance like beast says can't hurt as well.

 

[needsize]

What do you take in the way of joint supps, thats really key?
And are you going rock bottom, its a lot easier on your knees when you do.
And if your cardio is high impact, then it most likely is affecting it

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Thanks all I have been using wide stance squats. I have been going a lot lighter like 40lb less since I started adding more cardio. The cardio I have been doing is high impact but mostly eliptical.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

how wide is your stance?
also im wondering if the dieting may be having an imapct as you dry up your joints become less lubricated

 

[superqt4u2nv]

how wide is your stance?
also im wondering if the dieting may be having an imapct as you dry up your joints become less lubricated

I still take in about 20% of my daily total in fat. My stance is wider then shoulder length apart with toes pointed out. Feels like I could give birth from that stance. LOL I am going to pick up some joint supps when I am at the store next week.

 

[super_rice]

the wide stance doesn't agree with everyone. what about bringing your stance in and going deep?

whatever the case, it's likely a form thing.

 

[superqt4u2nv]

the wide stance doesn't agree with everyone. what about bringing your stance in and going deep?

whatever the case, it's likely a form thing.

Last week I tried squating 4 diffrent ways and nothing felt right every time I could feel the knee click clicking all the way down.

 

[super_rice]

some other things that have worked for me:

1) stay tight, don't bounce in/out of hole
2) let your knees come out in front of your toes if you are squatting oly style... imo, it's more of a natural movement and your knees are designed to take the stress off on their own
3) keep your knees warm with first a good warmup, then by wearing pants of knee sleeves during a workout
4) glucosamine/chondroitin mix, stay away from msm and other painkillers though

 

[bignate73]

1. how is your knee/toe tracking? are they in line?

2. do you feel binding on the way down? (in the hips) possibly tight glutes or TFL which could pull your patella out of line a bit. you should foam roll out your glutes or IT band to straighten that out.

3. how do you squat?

 

[supreme]

Nate is right! but also what is your pelvic alignment like? Greater than 10 degrees of anterior rotation combined with a wide Q angle for women can be extremely hard on the knees; the forward rotation automatically causes femoral anteversion (knees track inward instead of over the toes) and the Q angle increases shear on the knees and instability. You should also have your inherent joint ROM checked, women tend to be born with greater joint ROM and do too much stretching which results in joint laxity and hyper mobility - these women need much less stretching and should avoid yoga. Resistance training must be done with a shortend ROM to give the joints stability from the muscular system that they are not receiving from the ligaments.

You may need to properly align your pelvis and or strengthen your external hip rotators as well as work on the ITB. You may have a lower crossed syndrome that needs to be treated or you may need to reduce your cardio for as hip extensors fatigue, hip flexors become dominant and pull you into anterior pelvic rotation and result in the afore mentioned internal rotation of the knee; what is the ROM of your hip flexors? . Also what is the strength ratio of your quads to hams?? To reduce knee injuries hams should be upwards of 65% quad strength.

Stay away from: leg extesions, hacksquat machine & smith machine squats & lunges - all are detremental to the knees due to being non-physiologic motions that increase knee ligamnet stress due to decreased involvement of hip extensors and stabilizers. Squats, lunges etc. must be done as 3-dimensonal movements to effectively train primal motor programs in the body (Basically machines are junk!)

Last, how often or do you wear heels? Heels ruin women's knees, backs & necks due to the common compensation every woman has to make to keep your head up when wearing heels : hyperextension of the knees, lumbar spine & cervical spine. Heels are also the #1 cause of varicose veins in women's legs. (solution: wear flats & shorter skirts; legs will look just as long and have no bulging veins)

oh, and final thought to consider; what time of the month is it?? during a woman's period the hormone relaxin dramatically increases to prepare the body for child birth, hence increased ligament laxity in the whole body - not a good time to squat.


hope this helped! (sorry if it seems detailed or confusing but I deal with training women all day long and this is just some of what I must test, evaluate and correct but it works!)

S

 

[KillahBee]

Last week I tried squating 4 diffrent ways and nothing felt right every time I could feel the knee click clicking all the way down.

Sometimes I get a clicking in the knee like that when I squat. I started really concentrating on pushing my ass as far "back" as possible, which helped me to a) not think about my knees and b) take some of the stress of my kneed because I wasn't leaning forward as much (knees over toes).

 

[Scotsman]

Are you drinking enough water?
Are you doing your cardio before you squat?
Do you squat early or late in the day?
Are you doing hamstring specific exercises?

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[wnt2bBeast]

the wide stance doesn't agree with everyone. what about bringing your stance in and going deep?

whatever the case, it's likely a form thing.

true..but i had knee surgery to correct my crooked patella..and have squatted on and off always with more of a close oly style and whenever i got heavy always had to use wraps..

squatting wide i mean super wide WSB style has been a godsend not only can i go heavier but ive dropped wraps from my training and have no had one knee issue..i sued tem on my max attempt last week and that was my last set and honestly i really didnt need them

 

[coolcolj]

probbaly a combo of muscle imbalances, tightness in hips or muscles acting on the knee and overuse

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=72D9498260152CBFE7DC2F349D7DADA5.titan?id=459499

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Are you drinking enough water?
Are you doing your cardio before you squat?
Do you squat early or late in the day?
Are you doing hamstring specific exercises?

Cheers,
Scotsman

1-2 gallons of water per day.
I NEVER do cardio before lifting.
I squat later in the day 7-8 at night depends.
Yes I also do ham exercises but always after I squat. I always start my leg work out with squating.

 

[Scotsman]

1-2 gallons of water per day.
I NEVER do cardio before lifting.
I squat later in the day 7-8 at night depends.
Yes I also do ham exercises but always after I squat. I always start my leg work out with squating.

OK then it's probably either a form issue or you've tweaked something in the knee itself. I'd have to see you squat to really determine the problem. What auxillary exercises do you do for legs besides squatting?

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[superqt4u2nv]

OK then it's probably either a form issue or you've tweaked something in the knee itself. I'd have to see you squat to really determine the problem. What auxillary exercises do you do for legs besides squatting?

Cheers,
Scotsman

Legs press, leg ext, lying leg curl, this machine I call the butt blaster , seated calf raise a toe press calf raise or calf presses, sometimes lunges and or step ups it varies week to week.

 

[KillahBee]

Legs press, leg ext, lying leg curl, this machine I call the butt blaster , seated calf raise a toe press calf raise or calf presses, sometimes lunges and or step ups it varies week to week.

I just read this article and I think it's very helpful - even for the experienced or learned lifter. Maybe it will help.

http://dieselcrew.com/articles/cleaningupthesquat.pdf

 

[Scotsman]

Legs press, leg ext, lying leg curl, this machine I call the butt blaster , seated calf raise a toe press calf raise or calf presses, sometimes lunges and or step ups it varies week to week.

Try cutting out leg press and extensions for a while. These two put tremendous strain on the knee especially if you have already squatted. Lunges can do the same if you aren't paying super close attention to form on them. Stick with the squats though.

What kind of shoes do you wear to squat?

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Try cutting out leg press and extensions for a while. These two put tremendous strain on the knee especially if you have already squatted. Lunges can do the same if you aren't paying super close attention to form on them. Stick with the squats though.

What kind of shoes do you wear to squat?

Cheers,
Scotsman

Bare foot or that all stars in my gallery.

 

[Scotsman]

Bare foot or that all stars in my gallery.

Both good choices.

Do your feet roll in when you squat?

You would probably have to have someone watch and tell you if you don't know.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Both good choices.

Do your feet roll in when you squat?

You would probably have to have someone watch and tell you if you don't know.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Not sure I used to have a problem with tippying forward but since I changed my stance to wide on the squat that doesn't happen any more.

I know your suggesting laying off the exts etc but I am going ultra light weight for me super high rep I am cutting.

 

[bignate73]

I know your suggesting laying off the exts etc but I am going ultra light weight for me super high rep I am cutting.

and that serves what purpose? ....just wondering what the intent is with this exercise. I'm sure its intense and burns alot, just curious what the plan was with that exercise.

i'm an advocate of compound exercises....so ignore me.

 

[supreme]

I agree with Nate! (again) as I said earlier, leg extensions are a worthless open chain exercise that can & does cause knee problems. It is especially good at making existing knee problems worse. Since there is no such thing as spot reduction and reps above 12 generally don't bulid strength or functional mass what is the point of the exercise?? what sport/ occupation requires a person to sit down and extend their leg repeatedly with a weight attached at the end?? sounds to me like someone has been reading too much "Muscle & Fiction" or getting their training info from one of those awesome ACE trainers???

Just to be sure I've looked at my Charles Poliquin books, My courses from the Chek institute, the Westside Seminar videos, Pavel's books & vids, Stuff from the The Colgan institute, my USA weightlifting manuals, Physical Therapy guidelines for ACL reconstruction - HMMMM No Leg extensions are mentioned EXCEPT in the NOT what to do sections!!!

DUMP THE EXTENSIONS! (ALSO MOST SEATED LOWER BODY MACHINE BASED EXERCISES!!!)

According to the late (Great?) Dan Duchaine the myth about cutting up with high reps is an excuse used by pro (understand this means STEROID USING) bodybuilders to explain why their strength is dropping before a contest. It's becuase they drop their heavy androgens to eliminate bloating and that combined with reduced calories depleates strength also in tested contests the bodybuilders need to stop their cycle before the test - hence they lose strength and can't lift heavy. Dan and many other trainers and bodybuilders came to understand that they need to keep the weights heavy even when cutting to retain mass. The muscles need to experience the same high degree of tension even if it is for half the normal amount of reps or they begin to lose lean body mass.

light leg extensions for cutting makes as much as sense as doing high rep ab work to spot reduce the abdominals - Physiologically impossible! Its like taking a spin class to reduce fat thighs; DOESN"T WORK!

Here is a link to my favorite Spin article by Charles Poliquin. Note the problems with spinning are due to lack of tension on the muscles - same thing is occurring with your ultra light leg extensions. If you do enough of them you may even cause FAT GAIN in the quads ! - Its not BS, read the article!

http://www.charlespoliquin.net/spinning.cfm

S

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Oy it is not about spot reduction I have been here long enough to know spot reduction is BS. I am trying to hit the quads and most muscles from every angle I can. I still do compound lifts always have always will. Thing is being on a diet has put my strength in the shiitter. I can't lift near what I could when my diet was not so restrictive. Not everything works for everyone I KNOW MY BODY AND I KNOW AND SEE WHAT IT RESPONDS TO AND DOESN'T. The extentions are the only exercise that when I am doing them my knee does not sound like a bowl of rice cripys.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Oy it is not about spot reduction I have been here long enough to know spot reduction is BS. I am trying to hit the quads and most muscles from every angle I can. I still do compound lifts always have always will. Thing is being on a diet has put my strength in the shiitter. I can't lift near what I could when my diet was not so restrictive. Not everything works for everyone I KNOW MY BODY AND I KNOW AND SEE WHAT IT RESPONDS TO AND DOESN'T. The extentions are the only exercise that when I am doing them my knee does not sound like a bowl of rice cripys.

reduced cals and strength do not mix so dont worry about where your strength is right now..youll get it back later when your not cutting..

do what works for you in the meantime and give yourself a week or two off from squats then come back and see how the knee is

 

[superqt4u2nv]

reduced cals and strength do not mix so dont worry about where your strength is right now..youll get it back later when your not cutting..

do what works for you in the meantime and give yourself a week or two off from squats then come back and see how the knee is

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to wnt2bBeast again.

 

[supreme]

Beast is right (and huge!)

If you cut calories not only can you not gain or maintain LBM, you cannot heal tissues, recover from workouts and you lower your BMR which leads to fat mass gain. The cut off point before you trigger fat storage is approx 20% of your BMR or you induce a famine state which puts the body in a protective mode. It increases fat storage enzymes and decreases lipolytic enzymes.

It is ESPECIALLY bad in women age 13 - approx 48, because you are designed to perpetuate the species. i.e. everytime you cut calories - even for a few days you induce a 9 MONTH period of fat storage. your body starts stocking an emergency energy supply in case you get pregnant. No matter how hard you try, you cannot fool mother nature. This effect is cummulative every time you cut caloreis. It is all in a book written by a woman for women- "Outsmarting the female fat cell - by Debra Waterhouse, RD, MPH. I have all the women who work with me read it.

here's a link for the book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/103-7662615-6589419?v=glance&s=books

S

 

[d3track]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to wnt2bBeast again.

and let us know how those joint supps treat you!

 

[supreme]

I find the best joints supps to be 4-8 grams / day of MSM, and a topical MSM/glucosamine mixture. Oral glucosamine can lead to insulin resistance and thus fat gain overtime. Check out the book "The Miracle of MSM"

Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...7/sr=2-6/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_6/102-8500493-7459314

S

 

[Debaser]

The extentions are the only exercise that when I am doing them my knee does not sound like a bowl of rice cripys.

Rather than ignoring the symptom, which I might add is caused by a motion that a functional body should have no trouble with (squatting), you should investigate.

Supreme is dispensing some important information.

If possible, I would see an A.R.T. practitioner to solve immediate issues with your knees. There are quite a few excellent invididuals in Canada--some of the smartest guys I've ever met (2 of my instructors practice in Canada).

While this should help tremendously, you also have to look at the underlying cause. What is the root problem? It's incredibly likely that its your posture. The position of your pelvis could be causing hip dysfunction, even assymmetrically, resulting in knees that aren't properly coordinating movement.

 

[supreme]

Debaser:

Is one of your instructors Dr. Kinakin?? He's great. I correspond with him several times a year and I usually try to make it to the annual SWIS symposium or at least get the vids and manuals.

but you are right, soft tissue therapy can help a lot and almost instantly. I get ART done on my shoulder to free the subscap I damaged benching and playing hockey. If there is a misalignment due to restrictions in the tissue, ART will give great results although program modifications will need to be made to make the changes permenant.

If you can't find an ART provider another alternative is finding a St. John's Neuromuscular Therapist. I am studying the St. John's soft tissue technique and it also works to align the body and free restrictions. bottom line is that you need to remove or correct whatever is giving you pain. Pain is inhibitory to muscle contraction and you cannot train correctly in pain. You just cause more tissue and or joint damage and develop compensatory movement patterns which will become other postural misalignments and new sources of pain and injury forming a viscious cycle.

S

 

[Debaser]

Debaser:

Is one of your instructors Dr. Kinakin?? He's great. I correspond with him several times a year and I usually try to make it to the annual SWIS symposium or a least get the vids and manuals.

but you are right, soft tissue therapy can help a lot and almost instantly. I get ART done on my shoulder to free the subscap I damaged benching and playing hockey. If there is a misalignment due to restrictions in the tissue, ART will give great results although program modifications will need to be made to make the changes permenant.

If you can't find an ART provider another alternative is finding a St. John's Neuromuscular Therapist. I am studying the St. John's soft tissue technique and it also works to align the body and free restrictions. bottom line is that you need to remove or correct whatever is giving you pain. Pain is inhibitory to muscle contraction and you cannot train correctly in pain. You just cause more tissue and or joint damage and develop compensatory movement patterns which will become other postural misalignments and new sources of pain and injury forming a viscious cycle.

S

Is Dr. Kinakin an A.R.T. instructor? That's what I was referring to

If he is, then he was not at the seminar I attended. Strange if he is, because he's not listed among the staff on the official A.R.T. page.

 

[supreme]

Im not sure, I know Dr. Kinakin uses some ART techniques ans always has Dr. Leahy at the SWIS symposium. Could be he doesn't teach or is still being trained himself. Anyway, lets not hijack the thread to discuss ART. We know it works etc. Now we just have to convince others. you should check out the annual SWIS (society of weight training injury specialsts) symposium its in Canada every year during the fall.

But thanks for backing up my suggestions and adding in that ART could really help knee problems and pain due to misalignment. But all our ideas will be wasted without proper assessment, treatment and program design. I deal with this everyday. People want to do what they want and then by the time they realize they were wrong the damage to the body is doubled. (The upside is my paycheck is bigger for they need more sessions, more treatments etc.)

Einstein said it best "Insanity can be defined as doing the same actions repeatedly and expecting different results"

S

 

[Growth&Courage]

ok my last couple of sqaut sessions my knees are clicking like there is no tomorrow. I have had some serious pain as of late even going light. I think it could be the increased cardio. Anyways I need some advice what is going to be something that is low impact but still hit the quads decently.

Strange, for me after not training for 3 months in a row when I came back doing my squats it really challenged my knees and it was sore for days..but as I persisted through pain, (still going down deep) the whole movement on contrary to further damaging the knees actually strengthened it and now a month later my knees are ok.

Heavy leg presses (full motion) or perhaps hack squats may work your quads too but probably irreplaceable to the conventional squats.