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Just how bad are we talking here

ryno9000

New member
Just how bad are 17aa's on your liver? I mean, when you see something say "Liver Toxicity: Yes, High" that doesn;t exactly paint a picture of how dangerous something is. Highly toxic, to me, is a very subjective term. Compared to what? Irreversable damage? To what extent? I'm not trying to push the envelope until I turn yellow or die, but I just want some real terms of how much is too much.
 
Bump it up. Great question
 
From an athletic standpoint, certain types of anabolic steroids are frequently mentioned as having bad effects on liver function. They�re usually oral drugs that are classified as 17-alpha ankylated drugs.

The designation �17-alpha ankylated� refers to a change made on position 17 of the basic steroid structure. Scientists developed the testosterone derivatives after noticing that orally taken testosterone is degraded in the liver in a process called first-pass metabolism. Drug developers circumvented that formidable problem by making testosterone available in an injectable form, which bypasses initial first-pass liver metabolism, and by manipulating the basic steroid chemical structure, as is the case with oral 17-alpha ankylated anabolic steroids.

While the structural change in oral anabolic steroids did result in a far slower rate of breakdown in the liver, it also led to an inordinate buildup of such drugs in the liver. Since the injectable versions of steroids don�t build up in the liver as much as oral versions, the injectables are considered less of a problem in terms of normal liver function.

The oral drugs adversely affect the liver through several mechanisms. For example, they interfere with the function of certain liver enzymes. Anabolic steroids are known to increase the activity of some liver enzymes while downgrading that of others. One enzyme that�s increased with oral anabolic steroid use is hepatic triglyceride lipase, which degrades high-density lipoprotein (HDL), a beneficial cholesterol carrier in the blood. A lowered HDL level is considered a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Athletes who use oral anabolic steroids nearly always show depressed HDL levels. The buildup of 17-alpha ankylated oral anabolic steroids in the liver leads to a type of toxic or chemical hepatitis. Hepatitis, by the way, is a general word for an inflammation of the liver and can be caused by various factors, such as drug use and viruses. Oral steroids cause liver inflammation by promoting an increase in the size of liver cells, which leads to a congestion of bile flow through ducts in the liver that empty into the gallbladder, where bile is stored.

The interference with bile flow induced by the effects of anabolic steroids on liver cells is called cholestasis. It usually occurs only in people who use higher doses of oral steroids or who use such steroids for extended periods of time. Certain oral steroids are reputed to have more potent toxic effect in the liver and to promote the liver swelling that can lead to cholestasis. They include oxymetholone (Anadrol-50) and fluoxymesterone (Halotestin), although it may be that those drugs cause problems because they�re often used in higher doses than other oral steroids. Both drugs are 17-alpha ankylated, as are most oral steroids.

According to existing medical research, most cases of serious liver ailments due to oral anabolic steroid use have involved hospitalized patients who were given oral steroids such as Anadrol-50 to combat rare blood anemias. Many stayed on oral steroids for three or more years. The consensus of medical reviews is that certain potentially adverse liver changes do occur with athletic use�with the extent of the changes again depending on the drugs used, the doses and the length of time�but the changes regress when the athletes stop using the steroids. The liver is known to have an amazing capacity for regeneration unless it�s irrevocably damaged, a scenario that rarely occurs with short-term steroid use.

Physicians often warn about elevated liver enzyme levels due to oral anabolic steroid use. While that could indicate an inflammation of the liver, the problem is that some of the measured liver enzymes aren�t specific to the liver and exist in other tissues. For example, two enzymes found in liver, ALT and AST, also exist in muscle. Any type of injury to muscle�including the kind that occurs with intense weight training�causes an elevation of those enzymes in the blood. A physician who�s not looking at the big picture�or measuring levels of other liver and muscle enzymes�may wrongly conclude that such liver enzyme increases are indicative of liver problems.1 Measuring enzymes such as creatine kinase and GGT would provide a more definitive picture of existing liver function, as would liver imaging tests.

One visible early sign of liver inflammation due to oral steroid use is jaundice, which is characterized by a retention of bile in the body, leading to a yellow discoloration in the skin and whites of the eyes. Anyone using oral anabolic steroids should stop using them immediately if such symptoms occur. If you ignore the symptoms, you�re at risk for a more serious liver complication.

Peliosis hepatis, as it�s called, consists of blood-filled cysts in the liver. It�s thought to be due to cholestasis; that is, the elevated pressure in liver tissue brought about by lack of proper bile flow in the liver leads to a breakdown of liver cells followed by the appearance of the cysts. The blood-filled cysts can rupture, leading to death. Most cases of peliosis have occurred in hospitalized patients on long-term steroid therapy, although the occurrence of peliosis isn�t dependent on dosage.

One published instance of peliosis involved a 27-year-old bodybuilder who was using a steroid stack consisting of oxandrolone (Anavar), methandrostenolone (Dianabol), nandrolone (Durabolin) and testosterone for five weeks.2 What he took before that time wasn�t disclosed in the published report. The interesting aspect is that the drug stack he used isn�t considered highly toxic to the liver. The bodybuilder may have used more toxic oral steroids over a longer period, however, or he may have taken a drug such as Nolvadex, an estrogen blocker that few bodybuilders know can also cause peliosis if used in too high a dose for too long.

The other serious liver disease often linked to oral anabolic steroid use is liver cancer. Reviews of liver cancer in various medical journals indicate that it�s of a more benign nature than other cancers. Simply put, the liver tumors that develop with steroid use usually regress if the person stops using the drugs. That�s not always the case, however.

A few published accounts document liver cancer fatalities among athletes who have used oral anabolic steroids. In most cases, though, the athletes stayed on the drugs for extended periods. For example, one 26-year-old bodybuilder used a steroid stack consisting of Dianabol, Anavar, Winstrol, Deca-Durabolin and Primobolan for four years before being diagnosed with liver cancer.3 He refused chemotherapy to treat his cancer�probably because it had progressed to a fatal stage�and died.

Another bodybuilder who succumbed to liver cancer took Anadrol-50 for five consecutive years,4 and a 27-year-old Indian bodybuilder died after a liver tumor allegedly induced by his anabolic steroid use ruptured.5 The report documenting that case failed to list his specific steroid regimen. The most recent case of a bodybuilder who had apparent steroid-induced liver cancer involved a 31-year-old man.6 His cancer was considered benign and had not spread or metastasized; however, his liver tumors didn�t decrease in size even after he�d been off steroids for 18 months.

Several options have been suggested as methods of protecting the liver from steroid-induced damage. One obvious technique is to avoid taking oral steroids that are especially toxic to the liver, such as Anadrol, for extended times. A drug available in Japan called malotilate (Hepation) may reduce liver inflammation. A study showed that using ursodeoxycholic acid, a substance that thins bile secretions and is often used to treat gallstones, relieved the bile backup induced by androgens.7

Natural means of protecting the liver involve the use of various herbs. One example is Astralgus, which works by increasing glutathione levels in the liver. Glutathione is an antioxidant that also plays a major role in detoxifying substances in the liver, including anabolic steroids. Certain nutrients are known to increase glutathione synthesis in the liver, such as alpha-lipoic acid and N-acetyl cysteine. Milk thistle (silymarin) and a lesser known herbal substance, Picrorhiza kurroa, increase glutathione synthesis and also help regenerate liver cells. Both Astralgus and Picrorhiza kurroa are used in Europe to treat hepatitis and help maintain liver function. Increasing glutathione levels in the liver may be especially important, since one study of isolated liver cells treated with both injectable and oral anabolic steroids showed that the oral drugs depleted liver glutathione levels.8

Having sufficient amounts of chemicals called methyl groups in the liver also helps keep it healthy. Nutrient sources of methyl groups include lecithin, choline, betaine and S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe). Studies show that SAMe is especially useful for promoting increased bile flow in the liver and may help relieve the bile flow obstruction induced by oral anabolic steroids. SAMe, however, is quite expensive. An alternative method is to increase the intake of nutrients that promote SAMe synthesis in the liver, such as vitamins B12, B6 and folic acid.

Gamma-linoleic acid (GLA), which is found in evening primrose and borage oils, is often suggested as a way for those using oral anabolic steroids to help protect the liver. Ostensibly, the mechanism involved is a reduction in liver inflammation caused by oral steroids. GLA may help in that respect because it�s a precursor for anti-inflammatory prostaglandins that may be in short supply when the liver is inflamed.

Those who are concerned about liver cancer should be conscientious about avoiding contracting all forms of viral hepatitis, which is considered a direct cause of the type of liver cancer that�s more fatal than the type usually caused by steroid use. Since such forms of hepatitis are caused by blood contact, be wary of tattooing, body piercing, acupuncture and even sharing razors and toothbrushes (yech!). Sharing needles is a risk factor not only for hepatitis but also for HIV infection.


this was posted here i think by BlackSheep :) but not sure anyways good info
 
medical doses of oxymetholone (anadrol-50) have been administered in doses as high as 500mg per day for more than 6 months.



you think our doses are really that bad and will "fuck up your liver" like some purport it to be some sort of liver poison?
 
dabuffguy said:
medical doses of oxymetholone (anadrol-50) have been administered in doses as high as 500mg per day for more than 6 months.



you think our doses are really that bad and will "fuck up your liver" like some purport it to be some sort of liver poison?

I've read that up to 200mg a day for 5-6 weeks is relatively safe if you're an experienced user. Anything above that is potentially very hazardous to the liver.

I think we can get more input from the experts here.

Tat, Mav, eddy, needto, Guardian?
 
the_alcatraz said:
I've read that up to 200mg a day for 5-6 weeks is relatively safe if you're an experienced user. Anything above that is potentially very hazardous to the liver.

I think we can get more input from the experts here.

Tat, Mav, eddy, needto, Guardian?


Jaundice is an issue with high doses and long periods of time. It does subside quickly after usage ceases(so I read).


I would never suggest it (or do it), but I am willing to bet almost everyone could get away with 40mg dbol ed for 10 weeks without any major issue.

"Experienced user" and liver toxicity have nothing in common.
 
I remember seeing a thread about a year ago that compared one shot of vodka or whiskey to X- amount of anadrol pills. Interesting thread.
 
dabuffguy said:
Jaundice is an issue with high doses and long periods of time. It does subside quickly after usage ceases(so I read).


I would never suggest it (or do it), but I am willing to bet almost everyone could get away with 40mg dbol ed for 10 weeks without any major issue.

"Experienced user" and liver toxicity have nothing in common.

you don't think that an experienced user's liver has a higher ability to withstand toxins? just wondering....not sure tbh
 
I don't know the answer to this, but is there a potential genetic factor here similar to alcohol? In some populations they are lacking certain enzymes for genetic reasons that make alcohol more difficult to process. In a similar way with the 17aa's is the toxicity more an issue of individual chemistry then an across the board risk? I would guess that a 90 year old alcoholic with cirrhosis of the liver is going to have a much higher risk of toxicity then a young healthy athlete. Or am I crazy here, and the substance is equally toxic to all human liver tissue?
 
702daswoll1 said:
I remember seeing a thread about a year ago that compared one shot of vodka or whiskey to X- amount of anadrol pills. Interesting thread.

10,000 K to the first one to post a link to that thread -- I'd like to read it
 
theres not alot of hard studys to go from, just case histories when someone ends up under care I guess

but a 4-6 week course of dbol or anadrol at reasonble "effective doses" isnt going to cause any permanent damage. your liver values will be elevated but will return to baseline once you go off and may not even elevate if you use proper ancillaries (rALA, n-acetylcyctiene, acetyl-l-carnitine, lots of water).

at any sign of liver distress of course you would terminate - persistent nausea, jaundice, lethargy, lack of appetite, pale stool, dark urine
 
Much like alcohol there's no way of giving an exact amount in regard to damage. Everyone's tolerance is different.

An experienced drinker doesn't have a greater tolerance to the damage of alcohol, just the sides. He can tolerate more and "handle" it. But the liver can't. Same with 17 AA's

Actual death from liver damage due to 17 AA is virtually non existent. (Don Ross being an exception) but the danger exists. To what degree, either way, no one can guarantee.
 
Mavafanculo said:
10,000 K to the first one to post a link to that thread -- I'd like to read it

I think this is what your talking about mava its not from ef its the actual interview with Dave Palumbo scroll down : http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/palumbo/growth-hormone-and-insulin-resistance.htm

" Hey Palumbo,

How dangerous is 50 mg of Anadrol-50 (a.k.a. Synasteron, Hemogenin, Anapolon, oxymethelone)? Neal

ANSWER: Yes Neal, oral steroid are hepatotoxic; however, the context in which we are talking must be clarified. The term hepatotoxic refers to any substance that places an undue strain on the liver. Technically, eating too much food or even taking too many fat soluble vitamins can fall into this category. It is the ingestion of drug-like substances that force the liver to work above and beyond its normal workload that we are talking about. To answer your question, yes, taking 50 mg of Anadrol-50 per day is hepatotoxic but so is drinking one shot of vodka daily. Why is it that no one complains about the neighbor who has a nightly martini after work yet the drug enforcement squad is called if you're caught ingesting pills to grow large muscles? The answer is that our local Congressmen like to ingest alcohol (not Anadrol), therefore, they don't want to hear health lectures on the dangers of alcohol. Save it for the steroid abusers! Getting back to your question, 50 mg Anadrol per day will not destroy your liver (just like one martini per day won't); however, if continued indefinitely (unlike most bodybuilders and like most martini drinkers) there may be some serious consequences.

Theorem #1: One Anadrol-50 (oxymethelone) is hepatotoxically equal to one vodka martini.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ive seen on ethread talking about that on here a long time ago see as they mention dave palumbo : http://www.elitefitness.com/bodybuilding/anabolic-steroids/04-2000/007550.html



I hope this was what you were looking for :)
 
Greatercow said:
I think this is what your talking about mava its not from ef its the actual interview with Dave Palumbo scroll down : http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/palumbo/growth-hormone-and-insulin-resistance.htm

" Hey Palumbo,

How dangerous is 50 mg of Anadrol-50 (a.k.a. Synasteron, Hemogenin, Anapolon, oxymethelone)? Neal

ANSWER: Yes Neal, oral steroid are hepatotoxic; however, the context in which we are talking must be clarified. The term hepatotoxic refers to any substance that places an undue strain on the liver. Technically, eating too much food or even taking too many fat soluble vitamins can fall into this category. It is the ingestion of drug-like substances that force the liver to work above and beyond its normal workload that we are talking about. To answer your question, yes, taking 50 mg of Anadrol-50 per day is hepatotoxic but so is drinking one shot of vodka daily. Why is it that no one complains about the neighbor who has a nightly martini after work yet the drug enforcement squad is called if you're caught ingesting pills to grow large muscles? The answer is that our local Congressmen like to ingest alcohol (not Anadrol), therefore, they don't want to hear health lectures on the dangers of alcohol. Save it for the steroid abusers! Getting back to your question, 50 mg Anadrol per day will not destroy your liver (just like one martini per day won't); however, if continued indefinitely (unlike most bodybuilders and like most martini drinkers) there may be some serious consequences.

Theorem #1: One Anadrol-50 (oxymethelone) is hepatotoxically equal to one vodka martini.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ive seen on ethread talking about that on here a long time ago see as they mention dave palumbo : http://www.elitefitness.com/bodybuilding/anabolic-steroids/04-2000/007550.html



I hope this was what you were looking for :)


looks good bro thanks. thats interesting -

100 Karma on the way











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.
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j/k 10,000 k lol
 
There used to be a tenet that 2 mgs of an oral equals one drink but on further investigation I'd say it's probably closer to 10 mgs.

So 50 mgs a day is an extra 5 drinks every day (On top of whatever else you're doing to stress the liver). Some may say it's less. So if you don't drink, you'll probably be okay. Then again, why push it?

Also, it is a different kind of stress though so it's a very speculative comparison.
 
the_alcatraz said:
you don't think that an experienced user's liver has a higher ability to withstand toxins? just wondering....not sure tbh

Actually I am unaware of a case where a liver can build up a "tolerance" to the affects of filtering a drug. In fact the opposite is commonly true. As an example, look at an alcoholic. They are definitely an "experienced user" yet their livers fail all the time.

To put it differently, I am not sure that a liver could be "exercised" to be able to deal with chemicals better like the heart and lungs can for better CV performance.

B-
 
Mavafanculo said:
theres not alot of hard studys to go from, just case histories when someone ends up under care I guess

but a 4-6 week course of dbol or anadrol at reasonble "effective doses" isnt going to cause any permanent damage. your liver values will be elevated but will return to baseline once you go off and may not even elevate if you use proper ancillaries (rALA, n-acetylcyctiene, acetyl-l-carnitine, lots of water).

at any sign of liver distress of course you would terminate - persistent nausea, jaundice, lethargy, lack of appetite, pale stool, dark urine


Hook me up with a plat and I will find that fucker.
 
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