I've been thinking.......

[The Shadow]

*ignores the collective moans*

.....I have decided that the term set-point is really more applicable in terms of lean body mass than total body weight.

Thoughts?

 

[The Shadow]

a situation (as in tennis) in which one player will win the set by winning the next point



lol

set point theory implies that the body has a certain "weight" that it want to stay at

 

[Ceebs]

I thought the set point referred to pounds (not nescessarily percentage) of bodyfat? Sure seems to, in my study of 1...

 

[The Shadow]

I thought the set point referred to pounds (not nescessarily percentage) of bodyfat? Sure seems to, in my study of 1...

Yeppers.......however I think it is equally applicanle to lbm as well....as muscle is metabolically active and adipose tissue is not

 

[The Shadow]

Question...Why WOULDN'T it be related to LBM?

Exactly my thoughts as well......


I never hear anyone talk about it in these terms though - it's always "xxx pounds seems to be my set point."


....it never seems to be in relation to number of fat pounds that sits on lbm

 

[Ceebs]

Yeppers.......however I think it is equally applicanle to lbm as well....as muscle is metabolically active and adipose tissue is not

Agreed. However mostly I'm bemoaning my inability to shed a certain amount of fat without resorting to hardcore drugs.

 

[The Shadow]

why people advise to eat 12-14 times bodyweight, rather than LBM (ahem).

...b/c 14 times lbm is too low Silly.

 

[The Shadow]

I know......ie my response.

I usually do 10-11 myself but with very little cardio......most panic at the thought of no cardio

 

[wilson6]

There is a set-point for both fat and lean mass and will depend on external factors as well.

For example:

Set-point A = body composition with no physical activity + eating to satisfy the appetite, not more and not less.

Set-point B = body composition with heavy resistance exercise + eating to satisfy appetite, not more or less.

Set-point B will certainly result in more muscle and less fat than A within the same person, but between two people it is going to be very different given the same relative lifting and dietary plan.

W6

 

[JLo]

Pretty interesting thread..... Good to know.

 

[Sassy69]

I was kinda gonna say something like W6. I would say that generally over the years since I hit puberty I've been with 5-10 lbs of the same body weight, just keeping a "typical" lifestyle. I have trained for many years but it wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I finally figured out how to diet & train correctly that I was able to modify my body weight. Given any constant "average" of a lifestyle (regular eating habits, work, training or whatever), I experience a certain average weight & body composition. 2 years ago I got it down significantly for competition, but I also changed my diet drastically and changed my body composition as well. Then I rebounded and went in the other direction. Over the last 2 years I've averaged about 10 lbs more as a "comfortable" average weight, but I'm also carrying significantly more muscle than in the past, in addition to my currently kinda fat-accumulated state.

My comment ain't as scientific sounding as Corn's but its my observation.

 

[MS]

Wilson6 hit it on the head, but I have a very strong feeling that ultimate setpoint is based on total fat stores. I think that this is what the body "sees" via leptin or whatever, and is what it will continue to want to "see" over time. So you can easily get leaner by adding LBM without adding or losing total fat, and this is, IMHO, the best way to stay lean long term. Although your total fat hasn't decreased, your PERCENT fat has decreased so you look and feel leaner, and your body is happy because it maintains it fat stores.

 

[Cheetarah]

Wilson6 hit it on the head, but I have a very strong feeling that ultimate setpoint is based on total fat stores. I think that this is what the body "sees" via leptin or whatever, and is what it will continue to want to "see" over time. So you can easily get leaner by adding LBM without adding or losing total fat, and this is, IMHO, the best way to stay lean long term. Although your total fat hasn't decreased, your PERCENT fat has decreased so you look and feel leaner, and your body is happy because it maintains it fat stores.

I believe similarly. After about 1 1/2 years playing with my diet and trying to get leaner (gaining muscle and losing fat in the process), I've determined that my body is most comfortable somewhere between 16-18% body fat. To get below 16% makes my life hell, to hold 15% I pretty much have to be hungry all the time. I think this "setpoint" is based on genetics but other factors as well, for instance, birth control pills. I can't help but wonder if I'd be able to hold a lower bodyfat percentage if I wasn't on the pill.

Now the theory of gaining more muscle with my total fat staying the same, thereby making it a lower bodyfat PERCENTAGE, is quite interesting. I may be able to find whether or not it's true for me. Recently I did experience an increase in muscle mass with a decrease in bodyfat percentage (from 18.5% to 16.8%). You may be onto something! But geez, if that is true, I'm going to end up getting pretty big by the time I can hold 15% without starving all the time! I'm already WAY more muscular than all the other females I'm around. I don't want to stand out TOO much. I'm not really wanting to get bigger but it seems to be happening without my even trying. Sure wish that would happen with my bodyfat!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Well then, this is jolly good news!!! So the bigger we get, the leaner we'll be able to stay! Perfect! I always thought it was the PERCENTAGE that stayed the same, which would kinda suck.

I know that my fat percentage hasn't jumped back to what I started with, even though I'm quite a lot heavier than I used to be. Sure, I'm not "lean", but whatever, that'll come once I figure things out better.

Corn, I'm not sure what you mean by 'it's always "xxx pounds seems to be my set point." ' Who says this? Do you mean total number of pounds? From what I've seen here, most people talk about set point in terms of %bf ...

 

[spatts]

Question:

Do you think the body kinda KNOWS how much muscle it has and is less willing to get rid of fat, the more muscle that's present? Or am I just grasping at straws here?

It seems like the more LBM I have, the less willing my body is to give up any fat, below a certain level.

Thoughts?

 

[The Shadow]

...makes sense as the body will sacrifice muscle to save bf

 

[spatts]

I have been trying to get to 175 for a couple weeks. I'm holding steady at 187-189 despite the fact that I'm rotating as if I were on my old cutting diet. Which works less and less efficiently the more muscle I gain. Perhaps I'm undereating now, since this diet first worked when I was at 20 fewer pounds of LBM.

 

[JJFigure]

How many kcals/day are you eating? I believe the leaner you are, the harder it is to drop 5-7 lbs. I had to decrease my kcals to 11xbodyweight (1500 kcals/day) to get past my sticking points. Before, when I had less LBM, I could diet using 1700 kcals/day.

 

[The Shadow]

...technically MORE lbm will make it easier to lose 10-11 is typicaly average cals for cutting

 

[The Shadow]

Spatts - try adding in 200 per day......but I dunno if thats gonna do the trick....possible water retention?

 

[spatts]

Ugh...ok, just woke up, peed, weighed-in, you know the deal. 189.

I am basically eating like the cutting diet that I always post. Those numbers worked SO well for me before. In fact, last spring when I used them, I went from just over 200, to 175 6 weeks later, to 164 2 weeks after that...35 pounds in about 8 weeks. I freaked at how skinny I looked and went back to putting on size.

This time...no movement at all.

Doubt it's water. I don't look or feel like I'm retaining water. I actually look alot leaner, yet the scale isn't budging. Normally I don't give a damn about the scale, but I have to weigh-in for the comp on something...so for the next 5 weeks, I care.

 

[JJFigure]

But when you're leaner, it's harder to lose weight. It's easy when you have a lot of BF to lose, but when you're down in a lower BF percentage, it's much harder to lose additional BF.

At least that's the way my body works - once I get to a certain level of leaness, I have a heck of a time dropping additional BF. I either have to bump my cardio or reduce my kcals.

 

[spatts]

...but I'm not very lean. Like 18% at the lowest.

Maybe I need to add some cardio in, then, because I can't imgaine eating less. I'm freaking hungry all the time, and go around with a headache most of the morning.

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

Spatts -- something firstly tells me your mind's eye may not be correct...while for a bb competitor 18% may not be a contest weight, 18% is lean.

And, if the scale is not budging, are you sure you have not put on additional muscle? Since you do look leaner and do not feel spongey could this be it?

Further, perhaps your cutting diet needs more overall cals? Are you getting enough EFAs? I have done carb-depletion several times in my life as well as rotations, but after a while what used to work no longer does. The body adapts too well....we are engineered to stay alive and our bodies will fight claw and tooth to stay there.

Even though you are on a time constraint, have you thought about adding cals? Or an overall cheat day/refeed?

By way of analogy but certainly not to your degree and need of making wieght class.....after months of hard training and super clean eating the scale was NOT moving anywhere. I was at my wits end and ready to throw in the towel. I was deprived and angry. Pissed off to be more accurate. I hated food in general as it lost its luster and appeal and was not eating for pleasure only making myself eat to stay alive and retain muscle.

Well, we needed to move into our new home (actually old home) that needed A TON OF WORK.....tons. My apartment and my then fiance's needed packing. So, diet and training were NOT of a priority. While we did not miss a workout, my diet was crappy. Hot days, lots of boxes, climbing up ladders to fix things.....lots of ice cream, milkshakes, quick foods such as bagels as there were no appliances hooked up etc. YOU GET THE PICTURE.

Well needless to say, I dropped like 7 pounds in a week, did not lose strength, fit into clothes I had not fit into in months and felt re-inspired. Long story to say, you need to take a diet break.

 

[spatts]

A break? It's only been a couple week!

...lol.

I am carb rotating. About 150-200 on high days, and about 50-75 on low days. About 200-250g protein, and 30g fat, mostly udos. That about 1800 high and 1200 low. Which is actually less than my cutting diet...I just remembered that I cut my protein way back on corn and MS's suggestion. My cutting diet AVERAGES 2000 cals. Hm. ??????

I just had my hydro done about 6 weeks ago and I was 187 @ 148 pounds LBM, and 20% fat. Doubt i've added a whole lot of musclein 6 weeks. Strength is doing fine, even though I feel like my stomach's going to just start digesting itself in a few minutes.

I think one factor is that last time I tried this I wasn't powerlifting. Perhaps I still have a bad guage of how much I really burn PLing. I KNOW I burn more than I did when I was BBing. Perhaps it's more than I thought.

...or maybe the bod is just rebelling and will cave into my demands any day.

 

[MS]

In my experience the body is a lot more adaptable than we give it credit for. If you've been carb cycling etc....for too long, or dieted too many times before, then there's a good chance that your body has figured out the game and you need to make a drastic change to diet and/or exercise to kick start fat loss. I find that every time I diet, I have to diet harder and cut calories more than the previous diet to get the same fat loss. But that's just me. I have heard others say the same thing though. Of course I've also got increasing age working against me

 

[spatts]

I was carb rotating before, but it was more like 250 high and 100-150 low. Alot more cals. I just sat down and figured it up. I'm not doing anything close to what I was doing last time I cut in terms of over all cals. The ratios are the same, but the cals are like 600 lower on low days and 400 lower on high days. I completely forgot that prior to November, I had always taken in about 350g protein (give or take 50) when eating like this. Perhaps I need to go back to the increased protein...or in other words, the diet the way I originally used it. I dunno, but 1200 cals is LOW in my book.

I normally eat whatever I want on max effort days, prior to my workout. ME squat day is my day to load up.

 

[MS]

Sure. Try doing exactly what used to work for you. Problem is, if it doesn't work this time, you don't have a lot of time to sort it out. Keep in mind that regardless of how much LBM you carry, your brain will still fight to maintain X-pounds of fat that it is used to. Although muscle is very metabolically active, I don't think the brain actually registers how much of it you carry relative to fat. Basically the higher the ratio of LBM to fat, the harder your body is going to want to lose the muscle if it detects caloric restriction since it wants to retain the fat, not the muscle, and muscle is too expensive to run. But you know all this. The question is, what you gonna do about it. It might be worth a small experiment with the 'fat fast' again for 2-3 days just to see a)how much water weight you lose and b)how much strength you lose. At least you'll know where you are fluid-wise.

 

[spatts]

Good points. Funny you should mention the fat fast. It was the first thing I thought if when I got off that wretched scale this morning. If nothing else, it may be a little shocker and kick start things, assuming I come off of it in a controlled manner.

 

[spatts]

Sorry to hijack your thread, corn. I really started to wonder if the "brain actually registers how much of it [LBM] you carry relative to fat," as MS mentioned.

 

[JJFigure]

I know cyclical low carb diets don't work for everyone, but my PL friend (world level competitor) uses the anabolic diet to control his weight for competition, and actually feels he gets stronger on the diet. He stayed on it last year for 6 months and was able to come in at a lower weight class and still get a gold in the squat and 3rd overall at the worlds.

He's a little more loose with it than I am - eats about 100 grams of carb/day on low carb days and whatever he wants on the weekend (high carb days). He naturally tends to eat only starchy carbs (pancakes, bread, rice, etc) - not a big sugar fan, but does indulge in ice cream and beer (if he's not training) on the weekends. I tend to go really low carb during the week, but I'm learning to relax a little on the weekends and treat myself, too.

You might want to check it out. You can get most of the information you need from www.metabolicdiet.com, without buying anything. Dr. DiPasquale now has a PL specific diet you can purchase, but you can download a free version that has most of the info you need.

 

[The Shadow]

I dropped a LOT of fat on a 40/30/30 P/f/c diet a few weeks ago.....BUT....I noticed that the refeeds were just as, if not more important than the actual diet days....

 

[MS]

After doing some reading and sleeping on this one, I think you should go back to your old cutting diet. I say this based on
a) the higher carb diet you're on now isn't working for you
b) your complaints of symptoms of rebound hypoglycemia in the past, and
c) a piece of research published last May (High protein vs high carbohydrate hypoenergetic diet in treatment of normoinsulinemic and hyperinsulinemic subjects) which clearly showed that normoglycemic folks lose weight equally well on either a high carb or high protein diet of the same calories, but hyperinsulemic folks have trouble losing weight on the high carb diet compared to the high protein diet. In this study, high carb fiet was 12% protein,
58% carbohydrate and 30% fat. High protein was 45% protein, 25% carbohydrates, and 30% fat . On both diets total calories was 80% of resting energy expenditure.

It just may be that you will have to eat like a hyperinsulemic person for life if you want optimal mass gains or fat loss. Have you ever had your insulin tested??

This research was also interesting because it clearly showed that both groups (normo and hyper insulemic) experienced a greater drop in metabolism on the low protein/high carb diet. As a general rule, it may be the safest bet to start all BB diets with the high protein/low carb (but not necessarily keto) diet since it preserves metabolism better and it will work just as well for folks that may already be insulin resistant.

 

[JJFigure]

Just curious - if Spatts went on a higher protein/low carb diet, would she need to cycle in high carb days - say 1/week?

 

[MS]

I would think her previous high protein (350g per day) diet combined with carb cycling based on training and recovery would be fine. It worked for her before. And even IF she is insulin resistant to some degree, there is still a nice window of post-training insulin independant glucose uptake that she should take advantage of. Remember the folks on the diet I mentioned were NOT doing any exercise. They prolly would have had better results with the higher carb diet if they had used exercise and timed carbs for the higher carb diet.

 

[spatts]

MS...Interesting study. Is there a full version I can get my hands on? Would like to add it to the collection.

Had a glucose challenge done when I was pregnant, 3.5 years ago, and again about a year ago. Both were normal.

As I told corn last night, after eating yesterday (high day), and training, I actually weighed less...was definitely not eating enough. I am ALL over that problem.

JJ...I'm not sure refeeds are all that necessary for me, since I cycle the carbs (like MS said). Right now it's:

S...high
M...high
T...low
W...high
R...low
F...high
S...low

...so it's easy to not feel deprived.

I pretty much eat whatever I want on Max Effort Squat day prior to training. There's NO chance those cals don't get burned off.

 

[MS]

I can email you the full article Spatts. Glad you've got the problem sorted. for the record though, a glucose challenge tells you nothing about insulin levels. Many people can be in a pre-diabetic insulin resistant state for decades yet pass a fasting glucose challenge with flying colors. I just wondered both because of your hypoglycemic symptoms (when you eat carbs without r-ALA) and your lack of fat loss with the higher percentage carbs in the diet. Better safe than sorry.

I also lose weight faster after a 'refeed'. It can be quite dramatic some days.

 

[MS]

Oh, do you have an email addy??

 

[spatts]

I also lose weight faster after a 'refeed'. It can be quite dramatic some days.

Seems to be pretty common. Makes me wonder why more people don't carb up before a show.

 

[MS]

"Makes me wonder why more people don't carb up before a show"

The smart ones DO!