Israel has some big nuts

[p0ink]

Israel Destroys $60 Million Gaza Airport Runway
UPI | 1-11-2


GAZA (UPI) - Israeli army armored vehicles and bulldozers early Friday destroyed the runway at the Gaza International Airport owned by the Palestinian Authority, Palestinian eyewitnesses and security sources reported.
The $60 million runway, which was built in 1999, had been used by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in flying to other parts of the world as recently as a few months ago, although the airport itself was shut down by Israel about 15 months ago when the intifada began.

The airport facility had been a source of pride for the Palestinians in providing access to the outside world.

Palestinian witnesses said about 21 vehicles drove into the Palestinian-controlled area east of Rafah town in the southern Gaza Strip early Friday as Israel continued its campaign of retaliation for a Palestinian raid that killed four Israeli soldiers on Wednesday.

A militant wing of Hamas had claimed responsibility for the raid, in which two Palestinian militants also were killed, but Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said that his administration considers "the Palestinian Authority fully responsible for what happened."

The Palestinian Authority condemned the Hamas raid, saying, "It gives Sharon the excuse to resume his aggression and collective punishments on our people."

Palestinian eyewitnesses said more than 10 bulldozers tore up the 3.5-kilometer-long (2.2-mile-long) airport runway, beginning at 2 a.m. local time Friday.

On Thursday, the Israeli army destroyed more than 70 Palestinian homes on the border between Rafah town and Egypt, leaving at least 120 families homeless, according to Palestinian residents and PA officials.

The Israel Defense Forces spokesman said Israeli forces destroyed buildings that had provided cover for attackers against Israeli troops. The IDF spokesman also said they suspected that the structures provided cover for tunnels used for arms smuggling.

Sharon said Wednesday that his government would reconsider its policy against the Palestinian Authority in light of Wednesday's attack and the capture of an estimated 50 tons of arms and explosives on a ship in the Red Sea last week.

The vessel, the Karine A, said to be owned by an Iraqi national, was seized by an Israeli boarding party Jan. 3. Its cargo included Katyusha rockets, mortar bombs, anti-tank weapons and C-4 explosives. Israel said the arms were meant for the Palestinian Authority, and fingered Iran as the supplier. Iran has denied that allegation.

Sharon has accused Arafat of being personally implicated in the smuggling plot.

Under the terms of various Middle East peace agreements, Palestinian security forces are only allowed light weapons, which the Israelis are supposed to supply them with.

Arafat has denied that he or the Palestinian Authority were involved in the ship smuggling incident. Arafat announced Monday that he was establishing a commission to investigate the Israeli allegations and urged the European Union, the United States, Russia and the United Nations to join an international inquiry into the incident.

If evidence turned up involvement by a Palestinian official, that official would be prosecuted, Arafat said.

In interviews arranged Monday by the Israeli authorities, ship captain Omar Akawi, speaking from an Israeli prison, said he received the weapons off Iran's coast and was supposed to deliver them to smaller vessels off the Egyptian coast.

He said one of the men who loaded the deadly cargo was known to him as a member of the Lebanese Islamic guerrilla movement, Hezbollah. The United States has long said that Iran funds and arms Hezbollah.

Akawi, 44, identified himself as a longtime member of Arafat's own Fatah movement, and said he was acting under orders from a man he said was a Palestinian official.

Copyright © 2002 United Press International

 

[Golfer18--old]

Damn straight i wouldnt fuck with em' unprovoked.

 

[Milhouse]

I dont know bout anyone else but personally I get tired of fucking countries the size of Prince Edward Island fighting with each other and bringing us all into this bullshit.

 

[p0ink]

well, what do you expect after year and years of terrorist attacks funded by the palestinian government. What is more fucked up is that the US has been telling them to just 'chill out' and 'talk.' bullshit

 

[brainiac]

Anyone who kills in the name of a god or religion deserves death themselves. Nuke the whole fucking area with a clean hydrogen bomb and send people like me who are sick of living without true freedom over there and form a new country. Roids will be legal, you are all invited.

 

[danielson]

uhhh

does the fact they are restricting arafats ability to travel not worry anyone

why not just declare war on them....they are effectivly beating the palestinians in that direction. when the coalition finishes up in afghanistan assault wise and picks a new target this and the situation unfurling in israel will send shockwaves through the muslim world and give extremists a voice louder than before, prcisely what washington doesnt want

not to mention moderate elements within the israeli parliment are kicking up a fuss (yes it is happening)

we've seen in 2 separate cases you dont need to be born a muslim or even be of arabian descent to be a terrorist, one dude from the UK, one from the US

another step closer to war i guess arafat and us better do something before the palestinains get wiped out

 

[Milhouse]

Anyone who kills in the name of a god or religion deserves death themselves. Nuke the whole fucking area with a clean hydrogen bomb and send people like me who are sick of living without true freedom over there and form a new country. Roids will be legal, you are all invited.

I am appointing you the first president.

But seriously it is all these little fucked up countries the size of Rhode Island(or Coney Island) that cause most of the problems in the world.

I dont know but I sometimes wonder why when it comes to some of these countries that are spilt in 2 over some inane bullshit that one of the superpowers doesnt just come in and say/do the following....

"Ok(as the superpower crackes both opposing people heads together like in wrestling) both of you shut the fuck up. You go on this side and you go on that side. Now if any of ya's so much as fucking moan and bitch or start shit with the other, I am coming in here and I will give you something to cry about."

Thats what I would do with Israel/ Palestine. Crack em both upside the head and say shut the fuck up or else your all getting it. And fuck it we are taking your oil anyways so you have nothing to fight about now so dont bring up you r religious fucking mumbo jumbo shit.

 

[Crazier]

Anyone who kills in the name of a god or religion deserves death themselves.

--

 

[theoak01]

Anyone who kills in the name of a god or religion deserves death themselves. Nuke the whole fucking area with a clean hydrogen bomb and send people like me who are sick of living without true freedom over there and form a new country. Roids will be legal, you are all invited.

i agree,you cant kill in the name of god because thats nto what god wants,ya gotta listen to song number 5 off of garth brooks new album scarecrow and its all about this holy war bullshit

 

[CRNT93]

I dont know bout anyone else but personally I get tired of fucking countries the size of Prince Edward Island fighting with each other and bringing us all into this bullshit.

Some would say Israel and the US are pretty much one and the same.What would Israel be without the US?

 

[macDbol]

Some would say Israel and the US are pretty much one and the same.What would Israel be without the US?

Isreal's "big balls" were issue to them by the US, isreal wouldnt be tearing down shit or wouldnt even exist witout US backing, i mean look at their military, its all US issued

 

[omar]

Isreal's "big balls" were issue to them by the US, isreal wouldnt be tearing down shit or wouldnt even exist witout US backing, i mean look at their military, its all US issued

Since the US backs Israel, terrorist attacks will keep continuing such as what happened in 9/11.

Real scary shit; Even if Osama Laden is killed; think of how many people who have nothing to lose will resort to terrorism. US needs to examine its foreign policy more closely

later

Omar

 

[thebabydoc]

Isreal's "big balls" were issue to them by the US, isreal wouldnt be tearing down shit or wouldnt even exist witout US backing, i mean look at their military, its all US issued

Has their training or actual battle experience been US issued too?

If we did indeed "issue" Israel's balls, perhaps we should have kept some for ourselves.

It's what you do with the tools that determines the size of your balls.

 

[the nature boy]

I'm not gonna argue the existance of Isreal. But why do we give them over 3 Billion dollars per year? Especially when our economy is in shit. that 3 Billion can be put as a tax break. while we're at it, we can stop giving money to Egypt too (3 billion dollars).

that's 6 billion dollars folks.

 

[p0ink]

I'm not gonna argue the existance of Isreal. But why do we give them over 3 Billion dollars per year? Especially when our economy is in shit. that 3 Billion can be put as a tax break. while we're at it, we can stop giving money to Egypt too (3 billion dollars).

that's 6 billion dollars folks.

but it feels oh so good to give money to people who don't earn it, just ask ryanh and all the other socialists on this board

 

[BigGuns2]

Thank God that arms shipment was seized! Just imagine all of the pizza parlors and strip malls full of civilians that would have been targeted by those weapons. Fuck Arafat and the Palestinians. All I remember are those bastards dancing in the streets after the 9/11 attacks.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Has their training or actual battle experience been US issued too?

If we did indeed "issue" Israel's balls, perhaps we should have kept some for ourselves.

It's what you do with the tools that determines the size of your balls.

uhhh, before they got nukes they relied SOLELY on the spector of U.S support to keep from being dogpiled by every arab nation. And how do you think they got the nukes??

 

[macDbol]

Has their training or actual battle experience been US issued too?

If we did indeed "issue" Israel's balls, perhaps we should have kept some for ourselves.

It's what you do with the tools that determines the size of your balls.

its almost like haveing a kid who talks shit and has a bigger older brother. Knowing that his bigger older brother will beat the shit out of other kids who would lay a hand on him, the kid will continue to act tough

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

uhhh, before they got nukes they relied SOLELY on the spector of U.S support to keep from being dogpiled by every arab nation. And how do you think they got the nukes??

This is naive.

An America soldier has never ever fought side by side with an Israel soldier, and they have fought 4 wars since their inception in 1948.

Was it the spector of US support when they flew covertly over Saudi Arabia and destroyed and Iraqi nuclear program in 1982? Or during the Yom Kippur war, when Israel was attacked during the holiest day of the Jewish year, and still won the war quickly?


Israel has the best trained Army in the world, even better than ours. If you think that's bullshit - I'm not even going to disucss it with youif you haven't served.

If you have served, you'll understand my point because they live in a war zone. it makes you sharp. Arab nations will eventually learn the hard way.

Omar: yopu;re a dumb fuck. We give Egypt dollar for dollar what we give Israel.

 

[the nature boy]

damn somebody pissed in someones wheaties today.

 

[danielson]

damn somebody pissed in someones wheaties today.

lol

nature boy i'd gove you karma, but ive been goving ittoo much lately and ive developed a small rash

 

[thebabydoc]

uhhh, before they got nukes they relied SOLELY on the spector of U.S support to keep from being dogpiled by every arab nation. And how do you think they got the nukes??

Seriously?
Are you fucking retarded?

The better question is how do you think WE got nukes? Who do you think helped in the development of the atomic bomb- any Arabs in that group? The US did not simply hand over a nuclear device to the Israeli's and say: "here you go, thanks for the support!" They made it covertly and on their own.

Also, here's a tiny bit of the history lesson you missed while in Physics 101:

The 6-day war [AKA Yom Kippur war] (Yes, that's because it was pretty much wrapped up in 6 days) was where 3 different Arab nations simultaneously attacked Israel on multiple fronts on the holiest day of the Jewish year. The intent was to eliminate the State of Israel.

The specter of US involvement or nukes did not prevent this unprovoked attack.

Neither the superiority of the aggresors' sheer numbers over those of the Israeli forces nor the incredulity of the surprise attack helped the Arabs. In less than 6 days, they got their asses handed back to them on a rusty platter and Israel took the Gaza strip ("Palestine"- hahaha). Israeli forces would have continued through Syria, Egypt, and Jordan had the US not intervened and BEGGED them to stop.

As for you guys quoting $3 billion, do have a concept of what the US budget is and what $3 billion is relative to that? It's like you giving $10 to the Red Cross. And $6 billion to preserve peace in an area as critical to us as the Mideast is a tiny, tiny price to pay, especially since other than England, the Israeli's are our only true and steady ally with any power (sorry Canada, Australia) in the whole world.

So before you start spewing garbage, know of what you speak. Double for Matt to you Omar, you stupid fuckstick.

 

[brainiac]

Seriously?
Are you fucking retarded?

The better question is how do you think WE got nukes? Who do you think helped in the development of the atomic bomb- any Arabs in that group? The US did not simply hand over a nuclear device to the Israeli's and say: "here you go, thanks for the support!" They made it covertly and on their own.

Also, here's a tiny bit of the history lesson you missed while in Physics 101:

The 6-day war [AKA Yom Kippur war] (Yes, that's because it was pretty much wrapped up in 6 days) was where 3 different Arab nations simultaneously attacked Israel on multiple fronts on the holiest day of the Jewish year. The intent was to eliminate the State of Israel.

The specter of US involvement or nukes did not prevent this unprovoked attack.

Neither the superiority of the aggresors' sheer numbers over those of the Israeli forces nor the incredulity of the surprise attack helped the Arabs. In less than 6 days, they got their asses handed back to them on a rusty platter and Israel took the Gaza strip ("Palestine"- hahaha). Israeli forces would have continued through Syria, Egypt, and Jordan had the US not intervened and BEGGED them to stop.

As for you guys quoting $3 billion, do have a concept of what the US budget is and what $3 billion is relative to that? It's like you giving $10 to the Red Cross. And $6 billion to preserve peace in an area as critical to us as the Mideast is a tiny, tiny price to pay, especially since other than England, the Israeli's are our only true and steady ally with any power (sorry Canada, Australia) in the whole world.

So before you start spewing garbage, know of what you speak. Double for Matt to you Omar, you stupid fuckstick.

First off son, there was no name calling in here, just people stating what they are pretty sure they know about a pretty fucked up and confusing situation. As for who you think gave the Israeli's nukes, just hold off before you spout that nonsense and finish the 8th grade. Many, many of the scientists who developed our bomb were Jews so maybe that is where you are confused. But they are using our nuke technology, lock stock and barrel. Look into it further.

And Skywalker, yes we have fought side by side with Israelis. It was called Desert Storm in 90 and Lebanon in 82. I have a buddy who operated a Patriot Missile Battery over there for the Army during DS. Officially he and his unit were not "fighting", but "peacekeeping" -and of course technically, it was not an offensive mission. That is how its always been worded when we are over there. Before we pulled out of Lebanon in 83 we trained with the Mossad-and Israeli version of the Seals, Recon and Spec Forces and CIA combined. We still have CIA in both territories right now-"just watching" too.

And whoever said the Israeli Army is all a bunch of badasses is highly mistaken. Well trained, possibly better than the average US soldier but one of our Marine Divisions and one Marine Airwing would make hamburger meat of them all in two weeks. word.

 

[Strong_Man20]

well, what do you expect after year and years of terrorist attacks funded by the palestinian government. What is more fucked up is that the US has been telling them to just 'chill out' and 'talk.' bullshit

you are very naive if you believe that the palestinian governemnt is funding any type of attack towards Isreal. It is Hamas and Jihad that are fighting against the jews, and arafat is an obstacle to them.
And what are you on about, "year and years of terrorist attacks"?? I cant even begin to comprehend how you can even think that isreal is the victim in this war!!

How can you steal a country and expect no trouble??

Do some research on this conflict and dont believe everything you hear bro, remember that jews have allot of influence in the media.

 

[Strong_Man20]

I'm not gonna argue the existance of Isreal. But why do we give them over 3 Billion dollars per year? Especially when our economy is in shit. that 3 Billion can be put as a tax break. while we're at it, we can stop giving money to Egypt too (3 billion dollars).

that's 6 billion dollars folks.

Isreal are a very important ally to America. They need an ally to protect there intrests in the ME.

 

[thebabydoc]

you are very naive if you believe that the palestinian governemnt is funding any type of attack towards Isreal. It is Hamas and Jihad that are fighting against the jews, and arafat is an obstacle to them.

I cant even begin to comprehend how you can even think that isreal is the victim in this war!!

How can you steal a country and expect no trouble??

Do some research on this conflict and dont believe everything you hear bro, remember that jews have allot of influence in the media.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!ROTFLMAO!!!

This manure (typing, spelling, and ideas) doesn't even warrant a response.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

First off son, there was no name calling in here, just people stating what they are pretty sure they know about a pretty fucked up and confusing situation. As for who you think gave the Israeli's nukes, just hold off before you spout that nonsense and finish the 8th grade. Many, many of the scientists who developed our bomb were Jews so maybe that is where you are confused. But they are using our nuke technology, lock stock and barrel. Look into it further.

I agree with you about the insults. However, you're completely wrong about Israel's nukes. Many prominent Jewish scientists came to the Yishuv (the pre-Independence War Israel) in the 1930's and 40's, including Ernst David Bergmann, the future director of Israel's nuclear program. These scientists worked together with the French during the 1950's and 60's, therefore, much of Israel's nuclear capability was the result of these scientists' hard work and the experience that they've gained from their cooperation with the French (France was Israel's closest ally in the 1950's and 60's). The US was not involved.

And Skywalker, yes we have fought side by side with Israelis. It was called Desert Storm in 90 and Lebanon in 82. I have a buddy who operated a Patriot Missile Battery over there for the Army during DS. Officially he and his unit were not "fighting", but "peacekeeping" -and of course technically, it was not an offensive mission. That is how its always been worded when we are over there. Before we pulled out of Lebanon in 83 we trained with the Mossad-and Israeli version of the Seals, Recon and Spec Forces and CIA combined. We still have CIA in both territories right now-"just watching" too.

The deployment of Patriot Missile Batteries was not an offensive mission - it was an act of crude appeasement and diplomacy that was supposed to keep various Arab nations in the US-led coalition against Iraq. Countries such as Syria and Saudi Arabia vehemently protested against the invitation of Israel into that alliance, despite the fact that Iraq was showering Israel with Scuds and threatened to use chemical weapons against Israel. Israel was told not to do anything in return. That's why the US send its Europe-based Patriot crews to Israel during Desert Storm - to prevent the Israelis from retaliating.

And whoever said the Israeli Army is all a bunch of badasses is highly mistaken. Well trained, possibly better than the average US soldier but one of our Marine Divisions and one Marine Airwing would make hamburger meat of them all in two weeks. word.

This is getting childish - this reminds of that "my dad is stronger than your dad" crap in grade school. What about the British SAS, the Russian Spetsnaz, and the German GSG-9 and KSK? Now, those boys are some badass motherfuckers. Let's just agree that there are tough mofos in various parts of the world.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

But why do we give them over 3 Billion dollars per year? Especially when our economy is in shit. that 3 Billion can be put as a tax break. while we're at it, we can stop giving money to Egypt too (3 billion dollars).

that's 6 billion dollars folks.

To preserve the peace that was the result of the Camp David Peace Accords of 1979.

I'm not gonna argue the existance of Isreal.

Good call. Here's a quote to think about:

"Anti-Semitism is not dead. Although anti-Semitic incidents have declined and a multi-cultural acceptance has produced wider tolerance in many states including the US, a 2000-year-old virus has mutated, and lives on, often in a disguised form. And the existence and achievements of the Jewish state in an area of relative backwardness stimulate anti-Semitism and furnish a respectable cover.

...Hitler exploited anti-Semitism with deadly consequences for Jews and the world. But racial anti-Semitism has been tabooed after the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials. Now the existence of the state of Israel permits anti-Semitism to assume a political form, safe from challenge as intolerance or racism. How many times one hears: "I like Jews but I can't stand Zionism," or "I have nothing against Jews, but I don't like Israel." The existence and achievements of Israel offer a visible and irresistible target for dormant anti-Semitic feelings aroused by a focus on Israel's mistakes and misdeeds, which are characteristic of every state including the US.

- UN Watch, December 1997"

 

[chesty]

First our nuclear program was run by Oppenheimer a german and his staff was german. It was german scientists along with US scientists that developed and succeeded in creating a nuclear bomb for this country.

Israel did not steal a country. They were invaded and they kicked the shit out of the enemy and took land fair and square.

Third, I don't think that the Marines would win a decisive victory over the Israeli Army. We would win, but it would be a bitter battle to the end.

Arafat is a terrorist himself. He more than likely has given his consent to the acts of terrorism against Israel and possibly funding as well.

When we are done in Afghanistan, we will more than likely turn our attention to Somolia (unfinished business) Iraq (unfinished business) Syria (PAY BACK!) Iran, Lebanon and at the same time we will be wiping the asses of more al qaeda and others in the Phillipines.

I also suspect that we may give Israel a green light to wipe out Palestine and others. Sooner or later, the cry baby middle east people are gonna need to be spanked by Daddy! So, we will be going down there to, into egypt as well.

The world is about to find out what country is the big boy on the block.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

First our nuclear program was run by Oppenheimer a german and his staff was german. It was german scientists along with US scientists that developed and succeeded in creating a nuclear bomb for this country.

Oppenheimer, along with many other German-born scientists who came to the States after the Nazis took over, was Jewish.

 

[thebabydoc]

Oppenheimer, along with many other German-born scientists who came to the States after the Nazis took over, was Jewish.

I was gonna specifically include him and Einstein among others but I wasn't 100% sure he was a Jew. Thanks for the info Stumpy.

 

[Strong_Man20]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!ROTFLMAO!!!

This manure (typing, spelling, and ideas) doesn't even warrant a response.

That is probably because you don’t have a worthy response to make..

Let me guess you’re a Jew right?? or an American..makes no difference I suppose. What part do you think is bullshit then?? The parts were I said Jews are not the victims?? Or do you still believe that Palestine belongs to the Jews?? Please don’t kid your self mate!!

I guess stealing a land calling it your own and then trying to eliminate the people who live there is not an act of terrorism right??

I can go on forever about this topic, but I hate it when guys like you try to fool them selves and make there countries out to be the innocent party.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Babydoc.......let's first get this out of the way, there would be no Israel WITHOUT THE U.S. Ok, now I fully realize that there were alot of jews behind the manhatten project, but what does that have to do with "Israel"?? Israel didn't exist until 1948, the manhatten project was started long before that. Now for some physics for you........DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR PROGRAM REQUIRES MORE THAN JUST A ROOMFUL OF SMART SCIENTISTS!! If all it took were smart people than China would be the leading nuclear power in the world. They have some of the most brilliant physicists on the planet, I know this personally due to my father and my Uncle. Up until a few years ago my Uncle ran THE PREMIER polymer physics program IN THE U.S, and therefore one of the top programs in the world. And both of them are invited to the Gordan conference every year. The reason I bring that up is because they are exposed to THE VERY BEST physicists in the world. So why is it than that China had to steal their program?? the logistics involved in a nuclear program just simply go beyond a few smart mother fuckers, or in China's case, a whole fucking shitload of smart mother fuckers. And of course once the physicists manage to spit a hydrogen atom, it's up to the engineers to deliver it in a feasible fashion. So no, Israel would not have had nuclear capability in such a short time without the U.S.......PERIOD!!

and Matt, I'm no way shape or form doubting the Israeli military. I know damn well how tough they are. But making the six day war as an argument that they could have run over all the arab nations is a bit misleading. Without U.S jets in their arsenal they would not have done what they did. Plus, this was back in the sixties, most arab countries mech divisions consisted of WW2 machinery. So of course the Israeli airforce routed them. But were you honestly implying that Israel could have marched it's ground troops all over the mideast?? Matt, you know better than that. Had Israel moved into Iran, Syria, Iraq...whatever.....every able bodied muslim would have picked up an AK-47 and converged on Israel. The muslim world's own divisiveness and unstability has been Israels very strength. But you simply can't deny that without Nukes and the spector of U.S support......if the major Arab countries decided to get together and send troops into Israel, eventually they WOULD overrun it. I mean c'mon, the israeli army is VERY good, but not THAT good. We're talking about MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of muslims, untrained or not, flooding into a tiny country like Israel. Not only would they have the trained armies of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt to deal with......they'd also have the Jihad folks to deal with. Sorry, but both of you know this to be true.

 

[Strong_Man20]

First our nuclear program was run by Oppenheimer a german and his staff was german. It was german scientists along with US scientists that developed and succeeded in creating a nuclear bomb for this country.

Israel did not steal a country. They were invaded and they kicked the shit out of the enemy and took land fair and square.

Third, I don't think that the Marines would win a decisive victory over the Israeli Army. We would win, but it would be a bitter battle to the end.

Arafat is a terrorist himself. He more than likely has given his consent to the acts of terrorism against Israel and possibly funding as well.

When we are done in Afghanistan, we will more than likely turn our attention to Somolia (unfinished business) Iraq (unfinished business) Syria (PAY BACK!) Iran, Lebanon and at the same time we will be wiping the asses of more al qaeda and others in the Phillipines.

I also suspect that we may give Israel a green light to wipe out Palestine and others. Sooner or later, the cry baby middle east people are gonna need to be spanked by Daddy! So, we will be going down there to, into egypt as well.

The world is about to find out what country is the big boy on the block.

Sorry man, but that is the most crock of shit that I have ever read for a long time!!

First of all Jews were not invaded by nobody, the British gave two thirds of Palestine in 1948 to the Jews and they came from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Russia, Germany, Iraq, Yemen and other countries in the ME. You got that?? They were not invaded, that is crap!!

Arafat a terrorist?? Please stop it!! Don’t you realise that he has killed and prisoned many hamas & Jihad fighters. The only reason why Hamas or Jihad cannot kill him is because it will spark a civil war between fatah and hamas, which would put Palestinians behind even further..

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Strong man, I agree with that. i don't know how many hamas fighters he's had killed though, but he's not a terrorist or sponsors terrorism himself. He's actually quite powerless in the grand scheme of things. Israel is making a mistake in thinking that he can control anything. All the trouble is being sparked by lebanese and Iranian backed groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Arafat has absolutely no power over these groups. That's why I feel sorry for the palestinians sometimes. They're pawns used by the other arab nations. I don't think the other arab nations give a rats ass whether the palestinians get their land back or not, it's just a convenient way for them to get to Israel. I wish Israel and Palestine would come to an agreement that would give the palestinians land back, but the Israeli's would have full military control over those lands. That way Israel could intercept those hamas fuckers before they got close to the mainland.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Strong man, I agree with that. i don't know how many hamas fighters he's had killed though, but he's not a terrorist or sponsors terrorism himself. He's actually quite powerless in the grand scheme of things. Israel is making a mistake in thinking that he can control anything. All the trouble is being sparked by lebanese and Iranian backed groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Arafat has absolutely no power over these groups. That's why I feel sorry for the palestinians sometimes. They're pawns used by the other arab nations. I don't think the other arab nations give a rats ass whether the palestinians get their land back or not, it's just a convenient way for them to get to Israel. I wish Israel and Palestine would come to an agreement that would give the palestinians land back, but the Israeli's would have full military control over those lands. That way Israel could intercept those hamas fuckers before they got close to the mainland.

Bro,

why do you consider hamas to be terrorists?? There actions are totally understandable and justifiable. Dont Palestinians have the right to defend them selves like any other country?? It makes me sick how Palestinians are branded as terrorists yet Israelis are allowed to get away with countless killings everyday. What do you think drives young Palestinians to blow them selves up with explosives??

 

[brainiac]

Third, I don't think that the Marines would win a decisive victory over the Israeli Army. We would win, but it would be a bitter battle to the end.

The world is about to find out what country is the big boy on the block.

Ok Mr. Puller, maybe I stretched that one...As an Ex Marine who rolled with the 2nd FSSG behind Task Force Ripper into Kuwaiti Airport almost 11 years ago I would still say we steam roll them. All we need is a taxi-(the Navy)I wish you all could have seen all the Iraqi POW's in our ISA camps cower and hit the deck and cover their heads whenever one of our jets our helo's flew over. Now THAT was funny.

Oh yea, whoever mentioned the French working with the Jews was right but they got their Nuke technology/materials from the US as well.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Bro,

why do you consider hamas to be terrorists?? There actions are totally understandable and justifiable. Dont Palestinians have the right to defend them selves like any other country?? It makes me sick how Palestinians are branded as terrorists yet Israelis are allowed to get away with countless killings everyday. What do you think drives young Palestinians to blow them selves up with explosives??

correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the understanding that Hamas are NOT palestinians. I know Hezbollah are Iranian backed, and I "thought" Hamas was either Iraqi or Syrian backed. Yes I do beleive palestinians have the right to defend themselves. However, I don't think it's palestinians causing trouble. I would bet that "real" palestinians are sick of seeing their friends and family dying and would give anything for a peaceful compromise. But everytime talks get anywhere, they're sabotaged by some act. Now there are people on the Israeli side that are just as guilty of trying to undermine the peace talks as there are on the palestinian side. What the palestinians need to do is route all non-palestinians out of the strip and than form a government or political party that has FULL control over what goes on in palestine, because recent events have made it painfully obvious that Arafat is a clown and always has been. He was "allowed" to speak for the palestinians by the other arab countries. All the while he had terrorist cells moving into the strip right under his nose. I'm sure he knew of it, but what can he do?? They could have killed him at a moments notice if he caused too much trouble for them. And maybe he was in cohoots with this plan the whole time, who knows?? Point is, it's time for him to go and I hope somebody steps in that can level with the Israeli's and back up what he promises. Than, and only than, can pressure be put on Israel to back up what THEY promise. Some previous opinions were correct, Israel could probably sack all of Palestine and probably get away with it. Although I have issues with Israel, I respect them for not having done so already. That shows that there are some good people operating there.

 

[brainiac]

Also-as for the nukes. Does anyone remeber the Rosenbergs? If not for those two spies(yes-they were jewish) not even Russia would have developed nuclear capabilities when they did

 

[thebabydoc]

... I don't think the other arab nations give a rats ass whether the palestinians get their land back or not, it's just a convenient way for them to get to Israel. I wish Israel and Palestine would come to an agreement that would give the palestinians land back, but the Israeli's would have full military control over those lands. That way Israel could intercept those hamas fuckers before they got close to the mainland.

Well put.

But as for you physics-related comments re: building a bomb, Israel had far more than a roomfull of smart scientists. The fact that they put together an atomic bomb WITHOUT the knowldege of the rest of the world for nearly a decade is proof of this. Does anyone here or on earth think that because we built the A-bomb first that no one else could do it without our help or without "stealing" our secrets? Remember it was a "race", and the Germans almost beat us to it. Yes, it's easier to use espionage to leapfrog your program, but you are really being naive if you think that the Israeli's or any other seriously intent military power with $$ couldn't do it (Pakistan, India). The toughest part is getting the necessary amount of weapons-grade plutonium and Israel seems to be the only country in the world concerned about letting the Arabs get a hold of that (1982, Iraqi reactor destroyed).

As for the Rosenbergs, you're such an anti-semite you don't even see the racism in your words anymore. The fact that they were Jews doesn't lessen or worsen or affect the degree of treason; their acts were primarily driven by greed, not Zionism. To try to link the two is just a plain farce.

As for all you arabs and arab-lovers posting on this thread who continue to insist WITHOUT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Israelis "stole" the palestinian's land, check out this thread and others by Weapon X:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53597
try a little history lesson. The history of mankind goes way back, much farther than 50-75 years and, believe it or not, we were not the first inhabitants of the good 'ol US of A either.

 

[the nature boy]

Too say there are angels on both sides is ludicrous. Here are some examples:

Deir Yassin
Sharafat
Kibya Massacre
Kafr Qasem
Al-Sammou
Sabra And Shatila
Oyon Qara
Al-Aqsa Mosque
Ibrahimi Mosque
Jabalia

It seems that both parties are just as guilty of committing terrorist acts. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[brainiac]

As for the Rosenbergs, you're such an anti-semite you don't even see the racism in your words anymore. The fact that they were Jews doesn't lessen or worsen or affect the degree of treason; their acts were primarily driven by greed, not Zionism. To try to link the two is just a plain farce.

I am not an anti-semite. I state facts. Fact is, it is highly suspected in the scientific world that they used the Russians for money but gave the info to Israel for free. You are a typical brainwashed fool. I am done on this post. They all deserve to die over there.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Well put.

But as for you physics-related comments re: building a bomb, Israel had far more than a roomfull of smart scientists. The fact that they put together an atomic bomb WITHOUT the knowldege of the rest of the world for nearly a decade is proof of this. Does anyone here or on earth think that because we built the A-bomb first that no one else could do it without our help or without "stealing" our secrets? Remember it was a "race", and the Germans almost beat us to it. Yes, it's easier to use espionage to leapfrog your program, but you are really being naive if you think that the Israeli's or any other seriously intent military power with $$ couldn't do it (Pakistan, India). The toughest part is getting the necessary amount of weapons-grade plutonium and Israel seems to be the only country in the world concerned about letting the Arabs get a hold of that (1982, Iraqi reactor destroyed).

do you really think they put the bombo together without the U.S knowing it?? hell, we helped em. And not all the folks on the manhatten project were jews either you know. And yes I know about pakistan and india.....do you know how it long it took for them to put together their programs?? also, where do you think they're physicists went to college?? That part really irates me......every physics and engineering school in the U.S is TEEMING with Indians, Chinese and Arabs. Than they take that knowledge and go home to make weapons to "possibly" use against us.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

let's first get this out of the way, there would be no Israel WITHOUT THE U.S. Ok, now I fully realize that there were alot of jews behind the manhatten project, but what does that have to do with "Israel"?? Israel didn't exist until 1948, the manhatten project was started long before that. Now for some physics for you........DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR PROGRAM REQUIRES MORE THAN JUST A ROOMFUL OF SMART SCIENTISTS!! If all it took were smart people than China would be the leading nuclear power in the world. They have some of the most brilliant physicists on the planet, I know this personally due to my father and my Uncle. Up until a few years ago my Uncle ran THE PREMIER polymer physics program IN THE U.S, and therefore one of the top programs in the world. And both of them are invited to the Gordan conference every year. The reason I bring that up is because they are exposed to THE VERY BEST physicists in the world. So why is it than that China had to steal their program?? the logistics involved in a nuclear program just simply go beyond a few smart mother fuckers, or in China's case, a whole fucking shitload of smart mother fuckers. And of course once the physicists manage to spit a hydrogen atom, it's up to the engineers to deliver it in a feasible fashion. So no, Israel would not have had nuclear capability in such a short time without the U.S.......PERIOD!!

As I've mentioned in my previous post, before the declaration of statehood in 1948, the Jewish community in Palestine, called the Yishuv, was very well-organized and was involved in the economic and cultural development of that country. In the 1930's, as anti-Semitism intensified in Europe, many Jewish scientists came to British-ruled Palestine, as others went to the US. Oppenheimer and his friends were from this same cultural milieu. These scientists established schools and universities in what later became Israel, such as the Technion, that are some of the most prestigious scientific institutions in the world.

Israel received a lot of help from the US over the years, but the massive US support of Israel did not begin until the late 1960's. That's a fact. Please do a little research and obtain some basic info before you post. The fact is that the Israelis worked with the French during the 1940's and 50's to get their nukes. I'm not saying that there were no covert actions on the part of Israelis, but for the most part their nuclear program has been developed thanks to their native resources and their cooperation with the French (and the French probably received some help from the US.)

Israel's existence rests on numerous factors. I'm not underestimating US support (which has been important), but to claim that's the sole reason why they're still around is ignorant.

I'm no way shape or form doubting the Israeli military. I know damn well how tough they are. But making the six day war as an argument that they could have run over all the arab nations is a bit misleading. Without U.S jets in their arsenal they would not have done what they did. Plus, this was back in the sixties, most arab countries mech divisions consisted of WW2 machinery. So of course the Israeli airforce routed them. But were you honestly implying that Israel could have marched it's ground troops all over the mideast?? Had Israel moved into Iran, Syria, Iraq...whatever.....every able bodied muslim would have picked up an AK-47 and converged on Israel. The muslim world's own divisiveness and unstability has been Israels very strength. But you simply can't deny that without Nukes and the spector of U.S support......if the major Arab countries decided to get together and send troops into Israel, eventually they WOULD overrun it. I mean c'mon, the israeli army is VERY good, but not THAT good. We're talking about MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of muslims, untrained or not, flooding into a tiny country like Israel. Not only would they have the trained armies of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt to deal with......they'd also have the Jihad folks to deal with. Sorry, but both of you know this to be true.

Israel did not receive any US help in the wars of 1948, 1956, and only some in 1967. There was some assistance and American arms in the Israeli Army in 1967, but much of the weaponry was non-American. So, that thesis of constant specter of US support is very shaky to say the least. However, I'm not denying that today Israel has US support, but they also cooperate heavily with the Russians and the Turks.

Also, the constant incongruities in your description of possible military scenarios deserve a rebuttal. The Israelis never had any desire to march into Iraq and Iran, not only because they have no political ambitions in that part of the Middle East, but because those countries are located hundreds of miles away from Israel. Israel had to defend its borders against states that did not recognize UN resolutions concerning the peaceful resolution and partition of that area.

As for the sheer size of all Arab armies, well, of course they have that as a plus. In a military conflict that would stretch out for a long period of time, that would definitely tip the scale in their favor, however, this presupposes Arab unity, and that is something that has been impossible to achieve in the past, and is unlikely to happen any time soon.

I'd also like to add that when a group is said to be Syrian-backed or Iranian-backed, as in the Palestinian DFLP or the Lebanese Hezbollah, all that means is that most of their funding is derived from those states' governments (Syria and Iran, respectively.) It doesn't mean that the actual activists or fighters are from those countries.

Hamas, which was formed in 1987 as the first Intifada gained momentum, is an extremist Islamic organization that seeks the destruction of Israel (a parliamentary democracy), and wishes to build a pure Islamic state in its place (yes, that means the annihilation of the Jews if they refuse to leave. Also, the Christian Arabs, such as Dr. Hanan Ashrawi would not be allowed to stay.)- this conflicts with the objectives of the Palestinian Authority, who, for the most part, accept UN Resolutions 181 and 242 and have agreed to the "two peoples, two states" solution. Hamas receives their funding from some extremist elements in the Palestinian Diaspora, from such militant organizations as the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood (who were responsible for the Luxor massacre in 1999) as well as from such states as Iran. The Islamic Jihad's network is not extensive as Hamas's (their cadres are not as well trained or educated), but they also get a lot of support and money from Iran. Let's not forget that despite the election of a more moderate (that term is very misleading) leader, Khatami, Iran is still a theocracy that is very much influenced by the Revolutionary Guards that gained a lot of power in Iran following the Islamic Revolution in 1979.

Whoa, I got to slow down here. Gotta give my fingers some rest.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

That is probably because you don’t have a worthy response to make..

That could be true.

Let me guess you’re a Jew right?? or an American..makes no difference I suppose. What part do you think is bullshit then?? The parts were I said Jews are not the victims?? Or do you still believe that Palestine belongs to the Jews?? Please don’t kid your self mate!!

Let me guess, you don't have much to say either, so that's why you have to label and categorize your interlocutor according to whatever prejudice you have of that group.

Palestine is the home of both Arabs and Jews. That's the world consensus - look into UN resolutions, starting with UN General Assembly Resolution 181, which explicitly called for the partition of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state. That is what the Egyptians and the Moroccans support nowadays - two states, one Jewish, one Arab - Israel, Palestine. Do you disagree with that? You still want to drive the Jews into the sea? Rejectionism sucks, bro, whether it's from some whacked-out religious Israeli zealot who thinks that Arabs have no rights there, or conversely, a Hamas activist who believes that all of Palestine, from Jordan to the sea, has to be purged of Jews.

I guess stealing a land calling it your own and then trying to eliminate the people who live there is not an act of terrorism right??

Please refer to various League of Nations documents and UN Resolution 181. You're being extremely ignorant if you think that the Jews appeared out of nowhere - please pick up an objective history book that does not deny either the continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for millennia, nor the Arab cultural, political, social, and religious attachment to that land as well. It works both ways - the purely dogmatic, rejectionist stand is for the ignorant. You should look into what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh says about this.

I can go on forever about this topic, but I hate it when guys like you try to fool them selves and make there countries out to be the innocent party.

It is naive to think of any ethno-political conflict in purely black and white terms.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Too say there are angels on both sides is ludicrous. Here are some examples:

Deir Yassin
Sharafat
Kibya Massacre
Kafr Qasem
Al-Sammou
Sabra And Shatila
Oyon Qara
Al-Aqsa Mosque
Ibrahimi Mosque
Jabalia

It seems that both parties are just as guilty of committing terrorist acts. And that's all I have to say about that.

I agree, both sides have committed crimes. However, the list that you've compiled omits brutal massacres of Jewish civilians by the Arabs, which took place in the War of 1948, as well during the anti-Jewish riots in the 1920's and 30's. If you're going to be objective, then provide examples of wrongdoing by both sides.

Also, the massacres of Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon were perpetrated by the Lebanese Christian Phalangists, although it's clear that Sharon knew that the Phalangists would go on a murderous spree if given a chance (there's a good BBC documentary on this subject.) The Ibrahimi Mosque massacre was the work of one deranged settler - you should explain the terms you list, or at least provide links to the original sources (I'm assuming you got your facts from a reliable, nonpartisan source, as opposed to a biased website with an extremist agenda. You should always pay attention to that.)

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

I am not an anti-semite. I state facts. Fact is, it is highly suspected in the scientific world that they used the Russians for money but gave the info to Israel for free. You are a typical brainwashed fool. I am done on this post. They all deserve to die over there.

"Highly suspected" doesn't sound like a fact to me. At least state where you got that fact.

"They all deserve to die over there" - wow, you're a very kind man. Sounds like something a demented imam in the remote corners of Yemen would say about the innocent civilians that died on 9/11. Again, wow!

 

[the nature boy]

I agree, both sides have committed crimes. However, the list that you've compiled omits brutal massacres of Jewish civilians by the Arabs, which took place in the War of 1948, as well during the anti-Jewish riots in the 1920's and 30's. If you're going to be objective, then provide examples of wrongdoing by both sides.

Also, the massacres of Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon were perpetrated by the Lebanese Christian Phalangists, although it's clear that Sharon knew that the Phalangists would go on a murderous spree if given a chance (there's a good BBC documentary on this subject.) The Ibrahimi Mosque massacre was the work of one deranged settler - you should explain the terms you list, or at least provide links to the original sources (I'm assuming you got your facts from a reliable, nonpartisan source, as opposed to a biased website with an extremist agenda. You should always pay attention to that.)

Understood. however I'm just bringing to light crimes that are probably not as well known. Read what I said between the list of acts of violence. There are no angels, and there have been acts of terror perpetuated by both sides. The crimes committed by the pali's and arabs are probably better documented so I thought I'd show display the other side of the story.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Understood. however I'm just bringing to light crimes that are probably not as well known. Read what I said between the list of acts of violence. There are no angels, and there have been acts of terror perpetuated by both sides. The crimes committed by the pali's and arabs are probably better documented so I thought I'd show display the other side of the story.

You're assuming that the acts of violence that you've listed are not well known, i.e. "bringing them to light". The presupposition is that the documentation and knowledge of these crimes has been suppressed, and that is not true. However, some of the people who often site these crimes, deny the fact that the Jews were butchered many a time by the Arabs. That is what I referred to. Plus, I bet very few people had even heard of the brutal anti-Jewish riots that took place in Palestine in the 1920's and 30's, or how hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced out of their homes in the Arab world following intense massacres of Jews in the mid-1940's.

I understand your intentions. All I'm saying is that if you want to present an objective argument, you can't just ignore one of the sides involved - your approach has to be balanced. I should also add, again, that much of the info that you provided can be easily obtained (and I'm sure that is where you got the info) from propaganda sites that distort and manipulate facts to promote their extremist agenda. You should pay attention to such "insignificant, little" details.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

As for all you arabs and arab-lovers posting on this thread who continue to insist WITHOUT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Israelis "stole" the palestinian's land, check out this thread and others by Weapon X:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53597
try a little history lesson. The history of mankind goes way back, much farther than 50-75 years and, believe it or not, we were not the first inhabitants of the good 'ol US of A either.

Hmmm, I just found this little nugget. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Joseph Farah, the author of that article, is not objective at all. I just reread that article - the number of contradictory half-truths in it is just too overwhelming. There are scholars out there who've written very well-researched, non-biased accounts of the Arab-Israeli conflict - unfortunately, Joseph Farah isn't one of them.

 

[chesty]

My point about Oppenheimer and the others was that they were German and Austrian citizens who happened to be jewish by dissent. In fact I don't remember Einstein ever speaking out about his religious beliefs, nor Oppenheimer. They fled Germany to avoid being killed or manipulated to use their knowledge to help a regime they were against.

Ex Marine? What happened? Don't you mean former Marine? And I do remember the Iraqi's cower and whimper.

 

[chesty]

I believe we found our first Nazi of the board. Mr. brainiac. "They all deserve to die" Dude that is not even funny in a twisted way. Wasn't 6.5 million documented and probably twice that undocumented enough for your sick, twisted ass?

 

[~HOUNDOG~]

Does any of this matter? They have been fighting for hundreds of years,and they will continue to do so. Tit for tat.
I used to be rather anti-sematic and pro palestine but no longer. Why you may ask?It is because both the palestinians and jews are fucking retards. They will never stop fighting,so get over it.

 

[~HOUNDOG~]

And for those that say "they should all die",don't worry,they will do that to each other eventually.

 

[the nature boy]

You're assuming that the acts of violence that you've listed are not well known, i.e. "bringing them to light". The presupposition is that the documentation and knowledge of these crimes has been suppressed, and that is not true. However, some of the people who often site these crimes, deny the fact that the Jews were butchered many a time by the Arabs. That is what I referred to. Plus, I bet very few people had even heard of the brutal anti-Jewish riots that took place in Palestine in the 1920's and 30's, or how hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced out of their homes in the Arab world following intense massacres of Jews in the mid-1940's.

I understand your intentions. All I'm saying is that if you want to present an objective argument, you can't just ignore one of the sides involved - your approach has to be balanced. I should also add, again, that much of the info that you provided can be easily obtained (and I'm sure that is where you got the info) from propaganda sites that distort and manipulate facts to promote their extremist agenda. You should pay attention to such "insignificant, little" details.

Now see, you're putting words in my mouth. Did I say this information has been surpressed? No. I am merely reminding people here that both sides have committed crimes against one another. And no I didn't know about the massacres in the 40's.

My point here, again is to at least inform others in this thread that both parties have committed crimes. By reading this thread it's ovbious that we all know about pali and arab agression towards isreal and it's people. so I thought I'd show the other side. I'm not saying I know everything on this topic, I could be wrong.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

My point about Oppenheimer and the others was that they were German and Austrian citizens who happened to be jewish by dissent. In fact I don't remember Einstein ever speaking out about his religious beliefs, nor Oppenheimer. They fled Germany to avoid being killed or manipulated to use their knowledge to help a regime they were against.

Actually, both Einstein and Oppenheimer were involved with the organized Jewish community in Germany. Einstein was a major spokesman for Zionism until his death; he was also asked by Israel to become their first president, but he respectfully declined. The fact is that both Einstein and Oppenheimer, as well as other important personages like Freud, were persecuted by the Nazis because they were Jews.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

I believe we found our first Nazi of the board. Mr. brainiac. "They all deserve to die" Dude that is not even funny in a twisted way. Wasn't 6.5 million documented and probably twice that undocumented enough for your sick, twisted ass?

He made the comment in reference to the current conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, not to the Nazi Holocaust. Note how he said "deserve" and not "deserved" - that's in the present tense. While wishing death upon millions of innocent people is certainly not very nice or smart, he didn't say anything about WWII.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Does any of this matter? They have been fighting for hundreds of years,and they will continue to do so. Tit for tat.
I used to be rather anti-sematic and pro palestine but no longer. Why you may ask?It is because both the palestinians and jews are fucking retards. They will never stop fighting,so get over it.

And for those that say "they should all die",don't worry,they will do that to each other eventually.

Learn to keep your mouth shut if you have nothing to contribute to a discussion. Take care.

 

[the nature boy]

He made the comment in reference to the current conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, not to the Nazi Holocaust. Note how he said "deserve" and not "deserved" - that's in the present tense. While wishing death upon millions of innocent people is certainly not very nice or smart, he didn't say anything about WWII.

I agree. from talking with brianiac at different times I would not gather he's a Nazi sympathizer.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Now see, you're putting words in my mouth. Did I say this information has been surpressed? No. I am merely reminding people here that both sides have committed crimes against one another. And no I didn't know about the massacres in the 40's.

I did not put any words in your mouth - you used the phrase "bring them to light," and that means something. I'm not being overly pedantic, I'm just pointing out that the words you use have connotations, and that's why I explained what exactly my objections are. Also, for the sake of keeping this in perspective, the Arab side is presented by numerous countries, not just the Palestinians. In the War of 1948, the invading armies of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria all butchered Jews.

My point here, again is to at least inform others in this thread that both parties have committed crimes. By reading this thread it's ovbious that we all know about pali and arab agression towards isreal and it's people. so I thought I'd show the other side. I'm not saying I know everything on this topic, I could be wrong.

Again, I disagreed with your presentation, not the facts. I hope you realize that.

 

[the nature boy]

I did not put any words in your mouth - you used the phrase "bring them to light," and that means something. I'm not being overly pedantic, I'm just pointing out that the words you use have connotations, and that's why I explained what exactly my objections are. Also, for the sake of keeping this in perspective, the Arab side is presented by numerous countries, not just the Palestinians. In the War of 1948, the invading armies of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria all butchered Jews.

I hate to nitpick, but both of my posts mentioned pali's and arabs. Did they not?

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

I hate to nitpick, but both of my posts mentioned pali's and arabs. Did they not?

You're right. Let's relax now.

 

[the nature boy]

You're right. Let's relax now.

agreed. (I guess this is sort of a relaxed looking icon)

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

As I've mentioned in my previous post, before the declaration of statehood in 1948, the Jewish community in Palestine, called the Yishuv, was very well-organized and was involved in the economic and cultural development of that country. In the 1930's, as anti-Semitism intensified in Europe, many Jewish scientists came to British-ruled Palestine, as others went to the US. Oppenheimer and his friends were from this same cultural milieu. These scientists established schools and universities in what later became Israel, such as the Technion, that are some of the most prestigious scientific institutions in the world.

Israel received a lot of help from the US over the years, but the massive US support of Israel did not begin until the late 1960's. That's a fact. Please do a little research and obtain some basic info before you post. The fact is that the Israelis worked with the French during the 1940's and 50's to get their nukes. I'm not saying that there were no covert actions on the part of Israelis, but for the most part their nuclear program has been developed thanks to their native resources and their cooperation with the French (and the French probably received some help from the US.)

(Israel may very well have worked with the French in developing Nukes, but don't you think the VAST majority of their knowledge came from Jewish scientists who previously worked on the manhatten project, which cost the U.S billions?? I really don't think Israel has the land to conduct underground tests like the U.S had. That's probably why they worked with the French because at that time the French were conducting underground tests. But I guarantee you that without the manhatten project, Israel would have been "nuke less" for quite some time. I don't think Israel had any supercolliders in the 40's and 50's either.

Israel's existence rests on numerous factors. I'm not underestimating US support (which has been important), but to claim that's the sole reason why they're still around is ignorant.

(Of course their still around regardless of U.S support, but there wouldn't have been an Israel in the first place without U.S and UK intervention. No, they're doing just fine on their own now.)


Israel did not receive any US help in the wars of 1948, 1956, and only some in 1967. There was some assistance and American arms in the Israeli Army in 1967, but much of the weaponry was non-American. So, that thesis of constant specter of US support is very shaky to say the least. However, I'm not denying that today Israel has US support, but they also cooperate heavily with the Russians and the Turks.


(Were not U.S bought planes used in the 6 day war as well as Russian planes??)



Also, the constant incongruities in your description of possible military scenarios deserve a rebuttal. The Israelis never had any desire to march into Iraq and Iran, not only because they have no political ambitions in that part of the Middle East, but because those countries are located hundreds of miles away from Israel. Israel had to defend its borders against states that did not recognize UN resolutions concerning the peaceful resolution and partition of that area.



(I know Israel has no desire to invade any of those countries, they're not big enough to. I was responding to someone else who insinuated that Israel could invade and occupy Iran, Irag, Syria etc... which is absolutely ludicrous)


As for the sheer size of all Arab armies, well, of course they have that as a plus. In a military conflict that would stretch out for a long period of time, that would definitely tip the scale in their favor, however, this presupposes Arab unity, and that is something that has been impossible to achieve in the past, and is unlikely to happen any time soon.


(You're absolutely right, there really is no Arab unity....I pointed that out in earlier post as being one of Israels strengths, they know that full well and use it to thier advantage. However, if Israel really goes over the line at some point, they'll see Arab unity, they'll see it awfully well. But yes it is unlikely to happen because Israel knows full well what would happen if it did. In fact, i almost wish it would happen so that Israel say's fuck it and nukes the whole region)

I'd also like to add that when a group is said to be Syrian-backed or Iranian-backed, as in the Palestinian DFLP or the Lebanese Hezbollah, all that means is that most of their funding is derived from those states' governments (Syria and Iran, respectively.) It doesn't mean that the actual activists or fighters are from those countries.


(You're right on this when it comes to recruiting suicide bombers. Why would an Iranian or Lebanese run into a night club or supermarket with a chest full of C-4?? He wouldn't, they leave that to desperate palestinians whom they can easily prey on. But the core leadership and the "non-expendable" personell come from the respective countries who finance the shit baggers)



Hamas, which was formed in 1987 as the first Intifada gained momentum, is an extremist Islamic organization that seeks the destruction of Israel (a parliamentary democracy), and wishes to build a pure Islamic state in its place (yes, that means the annihilation of the Jews if they refuse to leave. Also, the Christian Arabs, such as Dr. Hanan Ashrawi would not be allowed to stay.)- this conflicts with the objectives of the Palestinian Authority, who, for the most part, accept UN Resolutions 181 and 242 and have agreed to the "two peoples, two states" solution. Hamas receives their funding from some extremist elements in the Palestinian Diaspora, from such militant organizations as the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood (who were responsible for the Luxor massacre in 1999) as well as from such states as Iran. The Islamic Jihad's network is not extensive as Hamas's (their cadres are not as well trained or educated), but they also get a lot of support and money from Iran. Let's not forget that despite the election of a more moderate (that term is very misleading) leader, Khatami, Iran is still a theocracy that is very much influenced by the Revolutionary Guards that gained a lot of power in Iran following the Islamic Revolution in 1979.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Please refer to various League of Nations documents and UN Resolution 181. You're being extremely ignorant if you think that the Jews appeared out of nowhere - please pick up an objective history book that does not deny either the continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for millennia, nor the Arab cultural, political, social, and religious attachment to that land as well. It works both ways - the purely dogmatic, rejectionist stand is for the ignorant. You should look into what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh says about this.

.

stumpy,

I believe that the majority of Palestine, before 1948 were Arab, Muslims. Jewish people who lived there at the time were a small minority and their rights to the lands IMHO are nil. I am sure you know as well as I do.

After the British handed over Palestine to the Jews, 50% of them immigrated from Eastern Europe and the ME (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt and Yemen)

And that thread by weapon X "what is Palestine", is quite absurd & pretty offending IMHO, especially towards Palestinians.

Claiming a land after centuries, is pretty ludicrous dont you think??

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

stumpy,

I believe that the majority of Palestine, before 1948 were Arab, Muslims.

Strong_Man20,

Yes, only someone who's very ignorant would deny that fact. You're right, the majority of the population was Muslim Arabs, but there were significant minorities of Christian Arabs of various sects, Armenians, Circassians, Greeks, and Jews (who had never left the land in the first place.) Also, within the Muslim Arab community there were people with roots in Bosnia. You should ask your older relatives if they remember how many Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim Slav) villages there were in northern Palestine.

Jewish people who lived there at the time were a small minority and their rights to the lands IMHO are nil. I am sure you know as well as I do.

I agree they were a small minority, but I disagree with you about their claims to the land as being limited (or as you put it - nil). I'm sure you know of the modern Armenians having their independent country only on like 20% of historic Armenia. In fact, some of the territory of the modern state of Armenia was historically Azeri Turkish, but they've gained it, or re-gained as some would say, during some bitter fighting at the beginning of the 20th century. Some territory is still claimed by both Armenians and Azeris (the Karabakh). The same thing applies to the Kurds in Iran (and other countries). I'm covering these related issues so that you would see how a minority in a land can claim that land because of that group's continuous presence there for centuries, as well as the deep emotional, cultural, religious, and historical significance of it to their very identity.

Why am I bringing all this up? Just so you would know that such conflicts are not unique. Because you're seeing this from only one perspective (I understand why), you can't seem to understand that it's possible to accept the moderate claims of both peoples. If a rejectionist, whether Arab or Jewish, can only see one side and refuses to accept that this isn't black or white, then, sorry to put it so bluntly, they lack the ability to fully comprehend this conflict. Your stance seems very rejectionist. I'm pointing this out, and I don't think you're getting it.

After the British handed over Palestine to the Jews, 50% of them immigrated from Eastern Europe and the ME (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt and Yemen).

Again, I recommend that you look into some League of Nations documents (specifically, The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, issued in 1922), UN Resolutions 181 and 242. The Mandate documents provides some basic legal understanding of the Jewish claims to Palestine, while UN Resolution 181, it was passed in 1947, calls for the partition of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state. UN Resolution 242 concerns the outcome of the War of 1967 and explicity addresses Palestinian rights.

There were several waves of immigration that added to the number of Jews already living in Palestine, starting in 1880. You're leaving out some very important details that make your argument seem very one-sided. First, the Jews didn't emigrate from Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, and Yemen following the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948. In the late 1940's, the Jews were massacred in all of the aforementioned countries (as well other Arab and Muslim countries.) Then hundreds of thousands of Jews fled those countries to come to Israel (no one else was taking them in.)

As for the Jews in eastern Europe, they faced the possibility of renewed carnage after the Nazi Holocaust. That's right - AFTER. After two thirds of all Jews in Europe were slaughtered, most people in Europe could care less about them. In fact, in places like Poland (where close to 90% of all Jews were exterminated) there were massacres after the war (the Kielce pogrom in Poland, in 1946).

Very few countries in the world even wanted to accept these Jewish refugees. Most of them had nowhere else to go but Israel. Can you blame them?

Now, I'm not denying Palestinian rights in any way, nor am I denying their history and the crimes that have been committed against them. I'm just exposing some things that have been probably presented to you through a propaganda prism, or not presented at all.

And that thread by weapon X "what is Palestine", is quite absurd & pretty offending IMHO, especially towards Palestinians.

I agree. You should scroll up this thread and see what I had posted in regards to that article (it's there, you'll just have to look hard.)

Claiming a land after centuries, is pretty ludicrous dont you think??

Please refer to my comments above for I've already answered that question. Also, I recommend doing a little research on what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh and Prof. Edward Said say on this matter (I hope you know who they are. I don't agree with many things that Said says, but some of the stuff he has penned is brilliant).

I'm also curious to find out what you think needs to be done to solve the problem there. Please, no memorized propaganda/rhetoric either - just your personal opinions that are, hopefully, not based on emotion and vengeance but on a desire to seek justice and peace (and try to be pragmatic, i.e. let's try to avoid unnecessary violent bloodbath scenarios.)

Salam/Shalom

 

[~HOUNDOG~]

What the fuck?
Who with more than half a brain cell would listen to stumpy dick?

 

[brainiac]

I believe we found our first Nazi of the board. Mr. brainiac. "They all deserve to die" Dude that is not even funny in a twisted way. Wasn't 6.5 million documented and probably twice that undocumented enough for your sick, twisted ass?

I didn't mean for it to come across so literally-and if you thought I was refering to just the Israelis you misread me. Both sides are fucked beyond all repair. I am sick of their fighting-and the fact that it is religious oriented pisses me off even more. If thet can't solve their fucking problems soon I still hope they all die-BOTH SIDES.

 

[brainiac]

Actually, both Einstein and Oppenheimer were involved with the organized Jewish community in Germany. Einstein was a major spokesman for Zionism until his death; he was also asked by Israel to become their first president, but he respectfully declined. The fact is that both Einstein and Oppenheimer, as well as other important personages like Freud, were persecuted by the Nazis because they were Jews.

OK, now I see where you are coming from...hahahahaha. Einstein and Zionism? What did you say about 'objective' viewpoints? Hahahahaha. Einstein was agnostic and lived his life based on truth and what we know to be REAL. He did speak out against Jewish persecution but he was far from Zion. Here is the link....

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Both sides are fucked beyond all repair. I am sick of their fighting-and the fact that it is religious oriented pisses me off even more. If thet can't solve their fucking problems soon I still hope they all die-BOTH SIDES.

It's mostly politics. Yes, religion plays a part, but it's mostly an ethno-political conflict.

OK, now I see where you are coming from...hahahahaha. Einstein and Zionism? What did you say about 'objective' viewpoints? Hahahahaha. Einstein was agnostic and lived his life based on truth and what we know to be REAL. He did speak out against Jewish persecution but he was far from Zion. Here is the link....

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

Do you even know what Zionism is? Do you know what it means to be a Jew? He was asked to become Israel's first president - that's a fact, and he was also a Zionist. You shouldn't talk about things that you don't fully understand.

Here's a link: http://www.sofitec.lu/misc/einstein.htm

Please read it.

 

[brainiac]

Do you even know what Zionism is? He was asked to become Israel's first president - that's a fact, and he was also a Zionist. You shouldn't talk about things that you don't fully understand.

Here's a link: http://www.sofitec.lu/misc/einstein.htm

Please read it.

Oh, I understand the full situation-and you are trying too hard to hide your bias. He turned it down because....why? Check out my link again pal. And all this, still based on beliefs that no one ever can or will prove true. I know what Zionism is-and Einstien, as compassionate as he was for fellow people(all people really) of Jewish decent could care less whether they got Palastine for a country of their own or North Africa. He just wanted peace and for people to stop fighting over stupid bullshit. You started out on this post making sense...but I see now you are biased, intelligent, but biased still. Now I am really done with tis post. You are smoked out. Buh-by.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Oh, I understand the full situation-and you are trying too hard to hide your bias.

Uh, no you don't understand the full situation. Point out my bias.

He turned it down because....why? Check out my link again pal. And all this, still based on beliefs that no one ever can or will prove true.

Your link did not mention Zionism even once. You don't even know what that means. It's largely a secular movement.

I know what Zionism is-and Einstein, as compassionate as he was for fellow people(all people really) of Jewish decent could care less whether they got Palestine for a country of their own or North Africa.

No, that not he wanted for the Jews. And I still believe that you don't understand what Zionism is. It's not the same thing as Judaism. Judaism is a religion and ethno-cultural heritage, Zionism is a political/cultural movement. I can't believe you think that you know what you're talking about.

He just wanted peace and for people to stop fighting over stupid bullshit. You started out on this post making sense...but I see now you are biased, intelligent, but biased still. Now I am really done with tis post. You are smoked out. Buh-by.

I'm still making sense. You point out where exactly I was being biased. Go ahead, point it out. You won't be able to. Even the link that you provided did not mention Zionism once. I can't understand why you would even say the things you're saying. You're obviously ignorant of some basic facts.

You've given up on this thread? Hmmm... how convenient.

 

[brainiac]

Uh, no you don't understand the full situation. Point out my bias.

Your link did not mention Zionism even once. You don't even know what that means. It's largely a secular movement.

No, that not he wanted for the Jews. And I still believe that you don't understand what Zionism is. It's not the same thing as Judaism. Judaism is a religion and ethno-cultural heritage, Zionism is a political/cultural movement. I can't believe you think that you know what you're talking about.

I'm still making sense. You point out where exactly I was being biased. Go ahead, point it out. You won't be able to. Even the link that you provided did not mention Zionism once. I can't understand why you would even say the things you're saying. You're obviously ignorant of some basic facts.

You've given up on this thread? Hmmm... how convenient.

The origin of the word "Zionism" is the biblical word "Zion", often used as a synonym for Jerusalem -and the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael)-of which used to also be called be Palestine. . Zionism is an ideology which expresses the yearning of Jews the world over for their historical homeland - Zion, the Land of Israel. Einstein could care less where land to form a country was given to them -but since only one tract of land was truly in the picture his support for peace for Jews in Israel was misunderstood.

And Zionism was not mentioned in my link about Albert's most famous quotes because....com'mon, I know you can finish a thought yourself without memorized propaganda or rhetoric...I am an equal opportunity hater. Biased: You and attack posts here with statements supporting one side of the argument. And that is why you are no more fun and I am somewhere else on this board.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Israel may very well have worked with the French in developing Nukes, but don't you think the VAST majority of their knowledge came from Jewish scientists who previously worked on the manhatten project, which cost the U.S billions?? I really don't think Israel has the land to conduct underground tests like the U.S had. That's probably why they worked with the French because at that time the French were conducting underground tests. But I guarantee you that without the manhatten project, Israel would have been "nuke less" for quite some time. I don't think Israel had any supercolliders in the 40's and 50's either.

Most of the Jewish scientists who came to the US in the 1930's stayed here. I don't how many of them were involved with the nuclear programs in the USSR, France, or what became Israel. I think most of them concentrated their efforts on the "Manhattan Project." Maybe some of them were spies, I don't know, but I do know that the USSR, France, and the scientific community of pre-state Israel carried out some very intensive programs that relied on native resources. Of course, there was some spying involved (duh... the Russkies!), but the French and the Israeli network spy networks have not been sensationalized to the same degree. Who knows what kind of shady crap took place behind the scenes. We can only speculate.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Of course their still around regardless of U.S support, but there wouldn't have been an Israel in the first place without U.S and UK intervention. No, they're doing just fine on their own now.

Actually, it was mostly the intervention of several international bodies - first, the League of Nations, then the UN. Both organizations worked on settling the emerging conflict peacefully, and called for a partition. Also, Israel received diplomatic approval from many nations upon the declaration of independence in 1948, from US, USSR, and other countries. Nowadays, Israel has peace treaties with both Jordan and Egypt. Hopefully, in the near future, the right-wingers in Israel will be put in their place and the negotiations on the final-status agreements between Israel and Palestine can resume (i.e., the return of refugees, the removal of settlements, demilitarization of the whole area, etc.) In the best case scenario, both Syria and Iran would begin supporting the more moderate forces among the Palestinians, and stop their funding of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. The militants are not only undermining the Palestinian Authority but the Palestinian cause. That's what the PA Chief of security thinks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Were not U.S bought planes used in the 6 day war as well as Russian planes??

You're right. That's why I said Israel received some military assistance in 1967, but significantly more in 1973. To keep things in perspective: the Russkies supplied both the Syrians and the Egyptians with their best weapons in 1973.

Originally posted BigPhysicsBastard
I know Israel has no desire to invade any of those countries, they're not big enough to. I was responding to someone else who insinuated that Israel could invade and occupy Iran, Irag, Syria etc... which is absolutely ludicrous.

It's not just the size, but their overall political ambitions. I now understand the context in which you said that, and I agree with you.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
You're absolutely right, there really is no Arab unity....I pointed that out in earlier post as being one of Israels strengths, they know that full well and use it to thier advantage. However, if Israel really goes over the line at some point, they'll see Arab unity, they'll see it awfully well. But yes it is unlikely to happen because Israel knows full well what would happen if it did. In fact, i almost wish it would happen so that Israel say's fuck it and nukes the whole region

I don't think war is good for anyone, especially nuclear war. The right-wing in Israel, like Sharon and his buds, are really dangerous and fucking nuts. The problem is that the US supports those elements unconditionally, and doesn't give a fuck about the moderates there. This, in turn, is really bad for the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. I hope the moderates, on both sides, can somehow influence a more evenhanded US approach to this. I really hope so.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
You're right on this when it comes to recruiting suicide bombers. Why would an Iranian or Lebanese run into a night club or supermarket with a chest full of C-4?? He wouldn't, they leave that to desperate palestinians whom they can easily prey on. But the core leadership and the "non-expendable" personell come from the respective countries who finance the shit baggers.

Well, about the Hamas. It's true that they got much of their funding from abroad, however, their leaders are Palestinian who happen to be very well-educated professionals. (http://www.palestine-info.com/hamas/) The US media demonizes them and focuses exclusively on their military wing, but they're not a bunch of idiots. They run schools, hospitals, summer camps, and take care of the poor. They provide a basic support network in the face of constant bullshit from the Israeli right-wing (and that has claimed many innocent Palestinian lives.)

However, they remain extremist militants and killing innocent Israeli civilians is not a crime to them. Most Palestinians are fed up with the situation. But how many of them do you think can rationalize about this calmly in terms of politics when they have nothing to eat, when they have to wait for hours to get through a checkpoint just to get to work in, let's say, east Jerusalem? They're desperate people, just like regular Israelis (I'm not comparing their economic or political situation, just the emotional stress derived from their daily existence) who vote right-wingers into office based on often meaningless promises of better security.

So, how can the moderates on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides get out of the vicious cycle? The US government needs to stop unconditionally supporting the Israeli right-wing, and should start worrying about both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Conversely, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, and especially the Syrians, the Iraqis and the Iranians (all three support the extreme right-wing among the Palestinians) need to put pressure on the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad (as well as the Lebanese Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon). Will it happen any time soon? We'll see. Maybe the Russians will step up their diplomatic efforts (they wield a lot of influence in the Arab world - the history of Russo-Arab cultural exchange dates back to the days of the ancient Rus and early Islamic caliphates), but they will only act if they can secure further deals with the IMF and World Bank and get better loan guarantees from the EU and the US.

The collapse of the Soviet Union really left a power vacuum in the world. Hopefully, the EU, Russia, China, the moderates in the Arab world and Israel, and other nations of the world can somehow recalibrate the scale that has tipped into a state of complete American mono-polarism after the collapse of the USSR. At least bi-polarism provided some balance during the Cold War. Now, I think it's time for world multi-polarism - with moderates prevailing everywhere. However, the transition period between mono-polarism (that has resulted in a lot of crap) and a more balanced world multi-polarism will depend greatly on whether regular people here in the US will realize US's actual role in world affairs. Our people need to do some serious thinking, because only we can change the situation on the ground. I think 9/11 showed what can result if the American people don't demand accountability from their leaders. It really is up to us - either we continue living in a state of denial and ignore what really goes on the world, or we act. I prefer the latter, and I sincerely hope others feel the same way.

It is a pleasure to discuss these matters with you, BPP.

Peace.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

The origin of the word "Zionism" is the biblical word "Zion", often used as a synonym for Jerusalem -and the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael)-of which used to also be called be Palestine. . Zionism is an ideology which expresses the yearning of Jews the world over for their historical homeland - Zion, the Land of Israel.

That's a pretty decent definition. Note that it's a theoritical framework, and like any such broad concept , it can evolve and change according to the times, even if it means discarding some basic tenets for the sake of peace and justice. That means if a just peace between Israelis and Palestinians would require some reworking of certain Israeli institutions, well those changes would have to be implemented. The same approach should apply to the civil and legal codes of the Palestinian Authority (Palestine).

Einstein could care less where land to form a country was given to them -but since only one tract of land was truly in the picture his support for peace for Jews in Israel was misunderstood.

Please show me where exactly he had said that. Maybe you could cite your sources? When and where did he say that he doesn't care where the Jews get national sovereignty?

And Zionism was not mentioned in my link about Albert's most famous quotes because.....

Because that site addresses Einstein's attitudes on the epistemology of religion. That site has nothing to do with either politics, or Jewish rights in Palestine. Do you understand the difference between these two completely unrelated subjects?

com'mon, I know you can finish a thought yourself without memorized propaganda or rhetoric...I am an equal opportunity hater.

Oh, wow, you're a hater. That's nice to know. Tell me exactly where I've responded with "memorized propaganda or rhetoric"-generated replies. You can point out what you disagree with in specific sentences, can you not? Or are you going to just accuse me of something, and then conveniently run away?

Biased: You and attack posts here with statements supporting one side of the argument. And that is why you are no more fun and I am somewhere else on this board.

I'll repeat this again (this is getting really tiresome ). If you state something of such accusatory nature, i.e. "you're biased," then you need to show me where you disagree with me. Do you understand how that works? It's called a discussion. That's what BigPhysicsBastard and I are doing - he and I comment on a particular subject, and then we find what we disagree with and what we agree on. Then we move on from there. You can observe that in action if you scroll up this thread.

So far you've not produced one shred of evidence to support your claim. Point out the words, the ideas or anything that you disagree with, how that demonstrates how biased I am, and then we'll take it from there.

I've already explained why that link you provided is not applicable to this discussion. It doesn't support your stance, because it's completely irrelevant to what you were saying.

Did you run away again? You think you can just blurt something out and then leave like a child who's pissed that he didn't get his cookies before bed? At least have the decency to respond to this.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

stumpy seems pretty even keeled to me......don't know why there has to be insultes flung. It's good discussion, why bring in the insults??

 

[Strong_Man20]

Strong_Man20,

Yes, only someone who's very ignorant would deny that fact. You're right, the majority of the population was Muslim Arabs, but there were significant minorities of Christian Arabs of various sects, Armenians, Circassians, Greeks, and Jews (who had never left the land in the first place.) Also, within the Muslim Arab community there were people with roots in Bosnia. You should ask your older relatives if they remember how many Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim Slav) villages there were in northern Palestine.



I agree they were a small minority, but I disagree with you about their claims to the land as being limited (or as you put it - nil). I'm sure you know of the modern Armenians having their independent country only on like 20% of historic Armenia. In fact, some of the territory of the modern state of Armenia was historically Azeri Turkish, but they've gained it, or re-gained as some would say, during some bitter fighting at the beginning of the 20th century. Some territory is still claimed by both Armenians and Azeris (the Karabakh). The same thing applies to the Kurds in Iran (and other countries). I'm covering these related issues so that you would see how a minority in a land can claim that land because of that group's continuous presence there for centuries, as well as the deep emotional, cultural, religious, and historical significance of it to their very identity.

Why am I bringing all this up? Just so you would know that such conflicts are not unique. Because you're seeing this from only one perspective (I understand why), you can't seem to understand that it's possible to accept the moderate claims of both peoples. If a rejectionist, whether Arab or Jewish, can only see one side and refuses to accept that this isn't black or white, then, sorry to put it so bluntly, they lack the ability to fully comprehend this conflict. Your stance seems very rejectionist. I'm pointing this out, and I don't think you're getting it.



Again, I recommend that you look into some League of Nations documents (specifically, The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, issued in 1922), UN Resolutions 181 and 242. The Mandate documents provides some basic legal understanding of the Jewish claims to Palestine, while UN Resolution 181, it was passed in 1947, calls for the partition of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state. UN Resolution 242 concerns the outcome of the War of 1967 and explicity addresses Palestinian rights.

There were several waves of immigration that added to the number of Jews already living in Palestine, starting in 1880. You're leaving out some very important details that make your argument seem very one-sided. First, the Jews didn't emigrate from Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, and Yemen following the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948. In the late 1940's, the Jews were massacred in all of the aforementioned countries (as well other Arab and Muslim countries.) Then hundreds of thousands of Jews fled those countries to come to Israel (no one else was taking them in.)

As for the Jews in eastern Europe, they faced the possibility of renewed carnage after the Nazi Holocaust. That's right - AFTER. After two thirds of all Jews in Europe were slaughtered, most people in Europe could care less about them. In fact, in places like Poland (where close to 90% of all Jews were exterminated) there were massacres after the war (the Kielce pogrom in Poland, in 1946).

Very few countries in the world even wanted to accept these Jewish refugees. Most of them had nowhere else to go but Israel. Can you blame them?

Now, I'm not denying Palestinian rights in any way, nor am I denying their history and the crimes that have been committed against them. I'm just exposing some things that have been probably presented to you through a propaganda prism, or not presented at all.



I agree. You should scroll up this thread and see what I had posted in regards to that article (it's there, you'll just have to look hard.)



Please refer to my comments above for I've already answered that question. Also, I recommend doing a little research on what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh and Prof. Edward Said say on this matter (I hope you know who they are. I don't agree with many things that Said says, but some of the stuff he has penned is brilliant).

I'm also curious to find out what you think needs to be done to solve the problem there. Please, no memorized propaganda/rhetoric either - just your personal opinions that are, hopefully, not based on emotion and vengeance but on a desire to seek justice and peace (and try to be pragmatic, i.e. let's try to avoid unnecessary violent bloodbath scenarios.)

Salam/Shalom

Stumpy,

You make valid points. The holocaust was a traumatic period for the Jews, however this does not mean that their right to the region is justifiable.

Not only have they taken the land, but also they have behaved in the same way Germany did during WW2. That may sound a little extreme but I don’t see much difference between someone like Ariel Sharon or Adolph Hitler...do you??

The facts speak for its self. Just a few days ago he ordered 50 homes to be bulldozed, which left hundreds homeless in the middle of winter. He has also been involved in countless atrocities, which resulted in thousands of innocent Palestinians massacred.

Have you ever been to this region?? I have, and when you see places like Tel Aviv, where life is pretty good comparing to even European standards. Then you will be shocked to know, that only 40 minutes away there are areas were people cant even afford to feed them selves, and streets full of sewage.
They are treated like 3rd class citizens in there own country, and no one gives a rat’s ass.

The Israeli public supports these acts; otherwise they would not have elected Sharon. They knew the score with this asshole, and knew what to expect from him.

Palestinians should fight fire with fire until they recognise that Palestinians have a right to there land.

I don’t think the ME is a very secure location for the Israelis. They don’t have any sense of security; they are surrounded; by countries that hate their guts because of the way they have behaved. Dictators like king Abdullah of Jordan are what is keeping the ME divided, and this is were Israel get their strength.

One day I hope the people will wake up, and clean out these traitors...then the state of Israel will be in trouble and justice will be prevailed

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Stumpy,

You make valid points. The holocaust was a traumatic period for the Jews, however this does not mean that their right to the region is justifiable.

Strong_Man20,

If the world community has recognized Jewish rights in their historic homeland (you do know where the word 'Jew' comes from, right? Judea, as in the modern West Bank.), then don't you think they can live there? I'm not justifying any crimes that have been committed against the Palestinians, i.e. Al-Nakba or the Palestinian Catastrophe, but to claim that the Jews don't belong there at all, no matter how they behave or what their government is is also pretty absurd, don't you think?

Not only have they taken the land, but also they have behaved in the same way Germany did during WW2. That may sound a little extreme but I don’t see much difference between someone like Ariel Sharon or Adolph Hitler...do you??

I wouldn't compare Israel's behavior to what the Nazis did in WWII (in fact, I think your analogy reeks of anti-Semitism), but I agree with the fact that massacres of the Palestinians did take place - whole villages were destroyed and people forced out. But some of the Arab armies in the war of 1948, like the Syrians and the Egyptians also raped and killed innocent Jews that happened to be civilians. Do you think that was justifiable?

While Ariel Sharon is most certainly a right-wing extremist and he's guilty of numerous crimes, I would not compare him to Hitler. The core of the ideologies are completely different - you really are comparing apples and oranges here. The Nazis exterminated people based on race and claimed lands for the Germans that were never historically German. How can you compare Jewish claims in what is historically their land (not just their land, obviously) to what the Nazis did to millions of completely innocent people? Are you really that prejudiced?

However, I'm not going to argue that Sharon is a nice guy. You draw your own conclusion.

The facts speak for its self. Just a few days ago he ordered 50 homes to be bulldozed, which left hundreds homeless in the middle of winter. He has also been involved in countless atrocities, which resulted in thousands of innocent Palestinians massacred.

I'm not going to argue with what is obviously true.

Have you ever been to this region?? I have, and when you see places like Tel Aviv, where life is pretty good comparing to even European standards. Then you will be shocked to know, that only 40 minutes away there are areas were people cant even afford to feed them selves, and streets full of sewage.
They are treated like 3rd class citizens in there own country, and no one gives a rat’s ass.

I've lived in Haifa, been all over Israel, been to Palestine (Jericho), Jordan, and Egypt. You're right, the contrast between Tel-Aviv and Jericho was striking - it was like going from a trendy spot in Southern California to some part of the Third World.

Did you read one of my posts above? I explained the conditions of despair that the Palestinians live in. I know their overall situation sucks. But I really don't think that violence is going to achieve anything. I really don't. Only economic and political cooperation between the Israelis and the Palestinians will bring about peace.

The Israeli public supports these acts; otherwise they would not have elected Sharon. They knew the score with this asshole, and knew what to expect from him.

The Israeli public is emotionally naive as the Palestinians - they rely more often on their instincts and emotions as opposed to logic. Can you blame them? They support corrupt, right-wing politicians because the right-wingers promise them security and more jobs. If you were an Israeli mother whose daughter was ripped to shreds in a blast while waiting in line to get into a technoclub, would you not support some right-winger who insists on going after the animals who killed innocent Israeli teenagers?

Palestinians should fight fire with fire until they recognise that Palestinians have a right to there land.

Did you read what the PA chief of security said? Here, take a look again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

The Palestinians do have a right to their land. Is the Palestinian Authority not the official government in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

Violence never solves anything. It really doesn't. Look at what Sharon is doing - do you think that's going to bring peace to Israel? Of course, not. But neither will any sort of a violent campaign on the part of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad do anything to help the situation. You're being very naive if you think that those guys want a just peace.

I don’t think the ME is a very secure location for the Israelis. They don’t have any sense of security; they are surrounded; by countries that hate their guts because of the way they have behaved. Dictators like king Abdullah of Jordan are what is keeping the ME divided, and this is were Israel get their strength.

Their state is a reality that you have to deal with. You really believe that the Israelis are just going to pack their bags and leave? Where are they going to go? And if they refuse to leave at gunpoint, what are going to do - kill them? Then you're just as bad as Sharon.

Btw, I hope you realize that not all Israelis are Jews. Many Palestinians have Israeli citizenship (like in Nazareth, and other places in the Galilee). Are you going to kill them, too? Or just the Israeli Jews?

You call Abdullah a dictator. I'm curious now, what types of government do you support? Theocracies of the Iranian kind? Or do you favor a democracy?

One day I hope the people will wake up, and clean out these traitors...then the state of Israel will be in trouble and justice will be prevailed.

See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood would then support Hamas, and what does that mean? You're right, they'll launch a war against the whole country of Israel. And you would support that? Would you cheer on the street and hug your friends because the Jews are being butchered in Israel by fundamentalists who have don't even represent true Islam?

What do you want? You want peace, or do you want more blood? You really think that the annihilation of Israel (we're talking wholesale slaughter of civilians) will bring justice? If you answer "yes," then I'm sorry, but I don't think I can consider you sane.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Strong_Man20,

If the world community has recognized Jewish rights in their historic homeland (you do know where the word 'Jew' comes from, right? Judea, as in the modern West Bank.), then don't you think they can live there? I'm not justifying any crimes that have been committed against the Palestinians, i.e. Al-Nakba or the Palestinian Catastrophe, but to claim that the Jews don't belong there at all, no matter how they behave or what their government is is also pretty absurd, don't you think?



I wouldn't compare Israel's behavior to what the Nazis did in WWII (in fact, I think your analogy reeks of anti-Semitism), but I agree with the fact that massacres of the Palestinians did take place - whole villages were destroyed and people forced out. But some of the Arab armies in the war of 1948, like the Syrians and the Egyptians also raped and killed innocent Jews that happened to be civilians. Do you think that was justifiable?

While Ariel Sharon is most certainly a right-wing extremist and he's guilty of numerous crimes, I would not compare him to Hitler. The core of the ideologies are completely different - you really are comparing apples and oranges here. The Nazis exterminated people based on race and claimed lands for the Germans that were never historically German. How can you compare Jewish claims in what is historically their land (not just their land, obviously) to what the Nazis did to millions of completely innocent people? Are you really that prejudiced?

However, I'm not going to argue that Sharon is a nice guy. You draw your own conclusion.





I'm not going to argue with what is obviously true.



I've lived in Haifa, been all over Israel, been to Palestine (Jericho), Jordan, and Egypt. You're right, the contrast between Tel-Aviv and Jericho was striking - it was like going from a trendy spot in Southern California to some part of the Third World.

Did you read one of my posts above? I explained the conditions of despair that the Palestinians live in. I know their overall situation sucks. But I really don't think that violence is going to achieve anything. I really don't. Only economic and political cooperation between the Israelis and the Palestinians will bring about peace.



The Israeli public is emotionally naive as the Palestinians - they rely more often on their instincts and emotions as opposed to logic. Can you blame them? They support corrupt, right-wing politicians because the right-wingers promise them security and more jobs. If you were an Israeli mother whose daughter was ripped to shreds in a blast while waiting in line to get into a technoclub, would you not support some right-winger who insists on going after the animals who killed innocent Israeli teenagers?



Did you read what the PA chief of security said? Here, take a look again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

The Palestinians do have a right to their land. Is the Palestinian Authority not the official government in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

Violence never solves anything. It really doesn't. Look at what Sharon is doing - do you think that's going to bring peace to Israel? Of course, not. But neither will any sort of a violent campaign on the part of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad do anything to help the situation. You're being very naive if you think that those guys want a just peace.



Their state is a reality that you have to deal with. You really believe that the Israelis are just going to pack their bags and leave? Where are they going to go? And if they refuse to leave at gunpoint, what are going to do - kill them? Then you're just as bad as Sharon.

Btw, I hope you realize that not all Israelis are Jews. Many Palestinians have Israeli citizenship (like in Nazareth, and other places in the Galilee). Are you going to kill them, too? Or just the Israeli Jews?

You call Abdullah a dictator. I'm curious now, what types of government do you support? Theocracies of the Iranian kind? Or do you favor a democracy?



See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood would then support Hamas, and what does that mean? You're right, they'll launch a war against the whole country of Israel. And you would support that? Would you cheer on the street and hug your friends because the Jews are being butchered in Israel by fundamentalists who have don't even represent true Islam?

What do you want? You want peace, or do you want more blood? You really think that the annihilation of Israel (we're talking wholesale slaughter of civilians) will bring justice? If you answer "yes," then I'm sorry, but I don't think I can consider you sane.

Stumpy,

I find it very difficult to believe that a diplomatic approach is the solution of getting justice for Palestinians. Israel has made it clear that they are not interested in peace. The problem with Israel is that they want everything in there plate and they are not willing to share.

It seems to me that Israel will not accept that Palestine belongs to them also, more so than the Jews. Israel’s idea of solving this conflict is by killing as many Palestinians as possible, they have broken every law by accordance with the Geneva conventions act. So I ask you, how can you talk about peace when they have shown only brutality towards the Palestinians?? It seems to me that Israel will only speak one language, and that is of violence.

So what would be the next step for Palestinians?? Continue fighting until Israel realise that they are not going no where either, until they allow Palestinians to declare there own independent state in the west bank.

And with; regards to your question about Hitler being in the same category as Sharon. Well just because he has not declared that he hates Palestinians, and would not like to see all of them killed does not mean he doesn’t.

And he may not have killed the same amount of people as Hitler did...but numbers don’t mean anything. Are you trying to tell me that someone like Timothy Mcveigh is not in the same category as the one who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks because he did not claim as many lives??

Like I said in my previous post, he was responsible for countless exterminations of Palestinians. One in mind was during the 1980's at a refugee camp in Beirut, which claimed thousands of lives.

See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

. [/B]

The type of government I would support, is one that is there to serve the interest of the people and not the US or Israel. I favour a law that abides with Islam. One were you are allowed the freedom of speech and to vote.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The type of government I would support, is one that is there to serve the interest of the people and not the US or Israel. I favour a law that abides with Islam. One were you are allowed the freedom of speech and to vote.

Explain further. "Islamic" countries - those where the majority of the citizens practice Islam generally provide the fewest freedoms.

The only Middle Eastern country where an Arab or Muslim can vote is Israel. Israel provides more freedoms to Muslim citizens than any other country in the region.

Help me here.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Explain further. "Islamic" countries - those where the majority of the citizens practice Islam generally provide the fewest freedoms.

The only Middle Eastern country where an Arab or Muslim can vote is Israel. Israel provides more freedoms to Muslim citizens than any other country in the region.

Help me here.

Matt

There is no muslim state in the world at this present time that follows a true Khalafi law. Most muslim states are not allowed to vote and these corrupt leaders i.e. king Abdullah of Jordan, Sadam, Musharaf etc have all been supported and put there forcefully by America. The people do not want these scum bags yet they have no choice.

In Islam you have the freedom of speech, vote and women have the same equal oppurtunities and rights as men do. Some passages in the Quran make allot of sence however Islam has been corrupted by these leaders that were put there by America.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Islam has been corrupted by these leaders that were put there by America.

SM20

At what point do the citizens of those countries have to assume the responsibility for their own destiny?

How long will they let their "leaders" keep them down? Their leaders seek to blame America and Israel for their plight, because nothing unites a population like an enemy. (Consider GWBush's post 9/11 approval ratings).

Let;s look at Iran: We put the Shah there, who was then overthrown, and a theocracy was installed. How would you describe citizen freedoms there?

Did you know that even after Khatami was re-elected with 77% of the vote, the Guardian Council (the Islamic clerics) would not let him be inaugurated because too many moderates were elected to Parliament?

Here are corrupt leaders that were not installed by America.

Help me understand.

 

[Strong_Man20]

SM20

At what point do the citizens of those countries have to assume the responsibility for their own destiny?


How long will they let their "leaders" keep them down? Their leaders seek to blame America and Israel for their plight, because nothing unites a population like an enemy. (Consider GWBush's post 9/11 approval ratings).

At the present time it is a tough situation for them. Look at the scenario from their shoes; if they even challenge the regime in any way they face the possibility of being executed.

Let;s look at Iran: We put the Shah there, who was then overthrown, and a theocracy was installed. How would you describe citizen freedoms there?

Did you know that even after Khatami was re-elected with 77% of the vote, the Guardian Council (the Islamic clerics) would not let him be inaugurated because too many moderates were elected to Parliament?

Here are corrupt leaders that were not installed by America.

Help me understand.

Well like I said before Mat, most Muslim countries don’t practice true khalafi law including Iran. Even though there country seems to be Islamic I am sure it is not. But to be fair too Iran, the government there is much better than other Muslim countries, at least its country is not dictated by America.

 

[BuggyWhips]

instigating stuff like this get our shit fucked up...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Well like I said before Mat, most Muslim countries don’t practice true khalafi law including Iran. Even though there country seems to be Islamic I am sure it is not. But to be fair too Iran, the government there is much better than other Muslim countries, at least its country is not dictated by America.

Iran is better than most? When your country's religious leaders fail to inaugurate the elected President because Parliament is too moderate, you can hardly call yourself better than most. Better than whom? Iraq? As if that were cause for celebration!

AN Islamic country just wouldn't work. If history has shown us anything, it is that religion is mankind's most powerful tool for subjugation of others. In the middle ages it was Christianity, now it is Islam. It really is no different. How can you debate this?

And you;re right, if you challenge most Middle Eastern regimes, you'll be executed. Don;t they treat their "brethren" well? even if America installed these leaders, (a dubious cliam, for most of them), America isn;t the one treating their people poorly.

A Muslim's rights are more freely exercised here in the "terrible" US then anywhere in the Middle East.

Another thing America hsa done is throw enormous sums of money at the middle east. In addition to teh billions Egypt receives annually, our oil purchases have made the Saudi royals wealthy beyond calculation.

So why do their people live as bedouins?

You're going around in circles, and not addressing points...

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

AN Islamic country just wouldn't work. If history has shown us anything, it is that religion is mankind's most powerful tool for subjugation of others. In the middle ages it was Christianity, now it is Islam. It really is no different. How can you debate this? (This is so fucking true!!!!, right on Matt!!!)



Another thing America hsa done is throw enormous sums of money at the middle east. In addition to teh billions Egypt receives annually, our oil purchases have made the Saudi royals wealthy beyond calculation.

So why do their people live as bedouins? (A-fucking-men to this too!!. When it gets down to it, money, muslims are just as corrupt as they portray us western "infidels")

 

[CRNT93]

religion is the root of all evil!

 

[Strong_Man20]

Iran is better than most? When your country's religious leaders fail to inaugurate the elected President because Parliament is too moderate, you can hardly call yourself better than most. Better than whom? Iraq? As if that were cause for celebration!

When I said most, I was referring to other Muslim countries were freedom of speech and to vote is less pronounced than it is in countries such as "Jordan".

AN Islamic country just wouldn't work. If history has shown us anything, it is that religion is mankind's most powerful tool for subjugation of others. In the middle ages it was Christianity, now it is Islam. It really is no different. How can you debate this?

This is something we cant debate on, we will just have to agree to disagree.

And you;re right, if you challenge most Middle Eastern regimes, you'll be executed. Don;t they treat their "brethren" well? even if America installed these leaders, (a dubious cliam, for most of them), America isn;t the one treating their people poorly.

A Muslim's rights are more freely exercised here in the "terrible" US then anywhere in the Middle East.

You’re correct; Americans are not treated in their homeland poorly.
However I think you are missing the jest of my point, these Muslim countries were they are treated poorly is because of corrupt leaders and there regimes, not because they are following an Islamic law.

America is guilty of supporting and appointing these leaders. Which is what keeps the ME divided and is where America gets their strength in order to occupy the ME.

Another thing America hsa done is throw enormous sums of money at the middle east. In addition to teh billions Egypt receives annually, our oil purchases have made the Saudi royals wealthy beyond calculation.

So why do their people live as bedouins?

You're going around in circles, and not addressing points...

If the Americans are so generous, then why are they purchasing petrol at a fraction of its value from the gulf?

If they have helped the ME as much as you say they have, then why does your government support and appoint someone like Sadam and then use him as an excuse to occupy the gulf region??

Your country refuses to kill him, but instead they kill innocent civilians in Iraq and shift all the blame on him. Does that sound fair to you??

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

Your country refuses to kill him, but instead they kill innocent civilians in Iraq and shift all the blame on him. Does that sound fair to you??

I'm sorry, but that last paragraph is clean bullshit son.....Americans killing innocent Iraqi's?? Yeah, maybe a few get killed when Saddam decides to light one of our planes up with radar. Sorry, but that'll happen when you decide to crawl up an F-15E's ass and perform some Tomfoolery up there. Nothing that's going on right now in Iraq can be blamed on anyone else except that arrogant cock wipe sitting in the "presidential palace". Our embargo's on Iraq were meant to keep him from firing up the war machine.....but he just takes what little there is and hordes it for himself. His people live in slums while he "HAPPILY" eats caviar and drinks the finest wines and champaigns. Oh yes, he also keeps contracting painters to make more paintings of him. As if the 401 portraits of him around the city are still not enough. Fuck that man, we're not "shifting" any blame on Saddam, for once the U.S is almost completely not at fault for a bad situation in the ME.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Stumpy,

I find it very difficult to believe that a diplomatic approach is the solution of getting justice for Palestinians. Israel has made it clear that they are not interested in peace. The problem with Israel is that they want everything in there plate and they are not willing to share.

It seems to me that Israel will not accept that Palestine belongs to them also, more so than the Jews. Israel’s idea of solving this conflict is by killing as many Palestinians as possible, they have broken every law by accordance with the Geneva conventions act. So I ask you, how can you talk about peace when they have shown only brutality towards the Palestinians?? It seems to me that Israel will only speak one language, and that is of violence.

So what would be the next step for Palestinians?? Continue fighting until Israel realise that they are not going no where either, until they allow Palestinians to declare there own independent state in the west bank.

And with; regards to your question about Hitler being in the same category as Sharon. Well just because he has not declared that he hates Palestinians, and would not like to see all of them killed does not mean he doesn’t.

And he may not have killed the same amount of people as Hitler did...but numbers don’t mean anything. Are you trying to tell me that someone like Timothy Mcveigh is not in the same category as the one who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks because he did not claim as many lives??

Like I said in my previous post, he was responsible for countless exterminations of Palestinians. One in mind was during the 1980's at a refugee camp in Beirut, which claimed thousands of lives.

The type of government I would support, is one that is there to serve the interest of the people and not the US or Israel. I favour a law that abides with Islam. One were you are allowed the freedom of speech and to vote.

Strong_Man20,

OK, let's try to wrap this up.

You bring up good points, some of which I disagree with, but you have this tendency not to answer my questions. If you want to engage in a discussion, then you have to answer the questions that are posed to you. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing things. If you scroll up this thread, you'll be able to see how I state my disagreements with what you say point by point.

If you disagree with me and don't want to address the specifics, then don't bother quoting me. Just state what you feel (and that's what you've been doing). When I see my post quoted, I actually expect direct feedback, i.e. my questions answered. Then you could ask your questions, so that way I can respond to that. I'm just laying down a general outline here - there can be no real discussion without one.

If you don't want to put in the time, that's totally fine. Just don't quote me, because I get my hopes up anticipating a real debate.

Back to the subject at hand.

You say that continued violence should get the Palestinians their independent state in the West Bank (and Gaza). Ok, but states and countries are not just won and created through violence. Violence is only a tool to get to a certain point, then the parties involved negotiate.

You know much about Middle Eastern history? Do you know how Lebanon and Syria got their independence, and how they fought against the French? The French left Syria when the various Syrian factions united against them. Once they became independent, it wasn't too long before the Islamists were put in their place because they cause too many social and political problems. The same applies to Iraq. I know you're going to argue that that's not the will of the Syrian and Iraqi people, but there's a reason why both Syria and Iraq are pro-Baath (the ruling socialist party). Yes they're ruthless dictatorships, but in terms of education, position in society, connections with the West, overall cosmopolitanism, the Islamists in Syria and Iraq cannot be even compared to the ruling elites. That's why they're popular with some of the poor, but it's not like they care about the common people. They have their own political aspirations. Once in power, they won't give two shits about the people who supported them. Look at the fascist, populist movements in Central Europe of the 1920's and 30's. They also claimed that they represented the will of the people and true Christian ideals. What did that give us? WWII.

I get the feeling that you greatly romanticize Islamist political and social ambitions. It's time for you to realize that nobody gives a shit about the common people, especially in the developing world. They're on their own, because they're just pawns in the hands of those who have money and power, or those who want money and power. That's pretty scary, I know, but that's the truth.

I have a lot more to say, but I don't want to blabber on forever. I'm done with this thread.

later......................

 

[Strong_Man20]

I'm sorry, but that last paragraph is clean bullshit son.....Americans killing innocent Iraqi's?? Yeah, maybe a few get killed when Saddam decides to light one of our planes up with radar. Sorry, but that'll happen when you decide to crawl up an F-15E's ass and perform some Tomfoolery up there. Nothing that's going on right now in Iraq can be blamed on anyone else except that arrogant cock wipe sitting in the "presidential palace". Our embargo's on Iraq were meant to keep him from firing up the war machine.....but he just takes what little there is and hordes it for himself. His people live in slums while he "HAPPILY" eats caviar and drinks the finest wines and champaigns. Oh yes, he also keeps contracting painters to make more paintings of him. As if the 401 portraits of him around the city are still not enough. Fuck that man, we're not "shifting" any blame on Saddam, for once the U.S is almost completely not at fault for a bad situation in the ME.

Then why has the US not killed him yet?? Its that simple...if he is such a huge threat, would it not be easy to take that pile of shit out??

They have a blatant opportunity to, yet they choose not to...these are interesting points. This whole Sadam situation gives the US a convenient excuse for them to occupy the gulf region.

 

[lynaghgrew]

since the last war the israelis have basically stolen someone elses country and then repressed them politically, economically and militarily.

how fucking outrageous of those palestinians to want to live freely in their own country and not have some spotty 22 yr old with a rifle from brooklyn or odessa tell em what to do and when to do