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Is your Testosterone SHUT DOWN? FIX IT!

R

Realgains

New member
First of all the #1 side of AAS use in men is a VERY shitty lipid profile with a very poor Hdl to total cholesterol ratio

.....that said there are some users that do not seem to be able to recover their natural test production. This is usually a result of being "on" too long at one time or not staying off long enough between cycles to allow for full recovery..... but it can happen occasionally to anyone.
The main reason why recovery is slow is usually because the testes have shrunk and are having a hard time responding to LH. So if you insist on doing cycles over 8 weeks long and do not take an equal time off then be damn sure to use HCG 300-500iu's per day while on or at least for a couple weeks mid cycle and the last two weeks of a cycle. This will prevent testes shrinkage.

BTW the mild androgen nandrolone affects one the worst in this regard let me lake that perfectly clear, although any androgen can cause a problem.

HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

#1 get a total testosterone test done to be sure it is indeed a test problem. If your value is less than 300 then you have a case.

#2. take 2500 iu's of HCG every 4th day. Inject either sub Q or IM. Best place is in the belly fat sub Q. Continue for 32 days.

#3.Also do 50mg of clomid twice per day with food(helps absorbtion) Also include10mg of nolvadex per day. Do all the above for 32 days.

Then wait two weeks and get your test level checked again.

If that doesn't work then double the dose of HCG for 4 injections every 4th day. Than do 2500 iu's for 4 shots ..one every 4th day.
Do clomid and nolva throughout as above. Two weeks after finishing get the test checked again.

Good Luck

RG:)
 
Real: Good post, thanks for the info!!

So, is it better to take 2500 ius every 4th day for a month, or ED at like 300-500 ius?

I didn't know HCG was best taken subq, why is this??

Thanks!!

TPH
 
TPH said:
Real: Good post, thanks for the info!!

So, is it better to take 2500 ius every 4th day for a month, or ED at like 300-500 ius?

I didn't know HCG was best taken subq, why is this??

Thanks!!

TPH
Click to expand...

During a cycle do not take large hits of HCG or you will desensitize the testes to LH...stick to 300-500iu's at a time.

BUT!...if you are shut down after a cycle and will not respond to normal clomid therapy then you need to follow my advice.
HCG can be taken subQ due to the small amount injected and its composition. Steroids can be taken sub Q too but it will hurt like HELL!

RG:)
 
Themachine01 said:
If you get your test checked and it ends uup being low, can your doc prescribe you something to get it back up?
Click to expand...

Most docs don't no JACK about getting test back......see an edocrinologist. Most family docs will just give you test to take and that sure the heck isn't going to fix the root of the problem.

RG:)
 
My doc was a competitive BBer and very cool. Ive never asked him to prescribe anything to me before, but I wonder if it is possible for him to give me something to get my levels back up. He can legally do this if my test levels are low, correct?
 
Themachine01 said:
My doc was a competitive BBer and very cool. Ive never asked him to prescribe anything to me before, but I wonder if it is possible for him to give me something to get my levels back up. He can legally do this if my test levels are low, correct?
Click to expand...

Yes test can be given legally for low test levels but it will not fix the problem bro.

RG:)
 
I understand that being prescribed test will not solve the problem, but, can he prescribe anything else to get levels back up?
 
Realgains said:
First of all the #1 side of AAS use in men is a VERY shitty lipid profile with a very poor Hdl to total cholesterol ratio

.....that said there are some users that do not seem to be able to recover their natural test production. This is usually a result of being "on" too long at one time or not staying off long enough between cycles to allow for full recovery..... but it can happen occasionally to anyone.
The main reason why recovery is slow is usually because the testes have shrunk and are having a hard time responding to LH. So if you insist on doing cycles over 8 weeks long and do not take an equal time off then be damn sure to use HCG 300-500iu's per day while on or at least for a couple weeks mid cycle and the last two weeks of a cycle. This will prevent testes shrinkage.

BTW the mild androgen nandrolone affects one the worst in this regard let me lake that perfectly clear, although any androgen can cause a problem.

HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

#1 get a total testosterone test done to be sure it is indeed a test problem. If your value is less than 300 then you have a case.

#2. take 2500 iu's of HCG every 4th day. Inject either sub Q or IM. Best place is in the belly fat sub Q. Continue for 32 days.

#3.Also do 50mg of clomid twice per day with food(helps absorbtion) Also include10mg of nolvadex per day. Do all the above for 32 days.

Then wait two weeks and get your test level checked again.

If that doesn't work then double the dose of HCG for 4 injections every 4th day. Than do 2500 iu's for 4 shots ..one every 4th day.
Do clomid and nolva throughout as above. Two weeks after finishing get the test checked again.

Good Luck

RG:)
Click to expand...

GOOD LOOKING OUT BRO...THANKS
 
Themachine01 said:
I understand that being prescribed test will not solve the problem, but, can he prescribe anything else to get levels back up?
Click to expand...

Yes bro...as above...HCG, Clomid and nolva

RG:)
 
I agree with Gains HCG is a good thing, I just finished HCG which I ran @ 1500iu every 4th day for a total of 10,000iu of HCG then the normal clomid run of 300mg day 1 /100 for 10 & 50 for 10. I have 9 days left of clomid and things are great, the sex drive was awesome during HCG what a difference.

Slider

P.S. I also ran nolvadex @ 40mg/ed throughout the HCG.
 
ok a stupid question but I honestly forgot the answer and since we are on the subject I though I'd ask as others may not know as well. How long dose a 10,000 iu vial stay good once opened. I thought that 2 weeks was the max?
 
I was going to do HCG at 500mg/dy at mid-cycle then follow-up with HCG for 3 weeks after my last EQ/Enan injection but before starting clomid. Is that a good idea or is it better to jsut hit HCG for the last 1/3 of the cycle all the way up to starting clomid at last injection + three weeks.
 
good post. My question is however, once your test levels are up, will they stay up or are they just elevated for a period of time because of the HCG+Clomid?
 
Ok so what levels of test would be considered low. i have a appointment to go over my results for my tests. the doc is real cool and was a bodybuilder. Just a guesstimate. if my results were as follows:


Estradiol 21 pg/ml
Test 526 ng/DL
TSH 1.8 uiu./ml
Free TEst 100.9 pg/ml
What do you guys think?He specializes in HGH replacment
 
thx9000 said:
I was going to do HCG at 500mg/dy at mid-cycle then follow-up with HCG for 3 weeks after my last EQ/Enan injection but before starting clomid. Is that a good idea or is it better to jsut hit HCG for the last 1/3 of the cycle all the way up to starting clomid at last injection + three weeks.
Click to expand...

That will be fine since EQ hangs around for about three weeks after the last shot. Better to only use it for two weeks after the last shot though.


RG
 
SOLID said:
good post. My question is however, once your test levels are up, will they stay up or are they just elevated for a period of time because of the HCG+Clomid?
Click to expand...


They usually will stay up...but not always.......a few will need test replacement for life.

RG:)
 
bbforlife said:
Ok so what levels of test would be considered low. i have a appointment to go over my results for my tests. the doc is real cool and was a bodybuilder. Just a guesstimate. if my results were as follows:


Estradiol 21 pg/ml
Test 526 ng/DL
TSH 1.8 uiu./ml
Free TEst 100.9 pg/ml
What do you guys think?He specializes in HGH replacment
Click to expand...


Thats a good test level.....anything under 300 has me worried though.

RG

:)
 
Well crap so he may not perscribe then?? He is very cool and dont know if hed fudge em. got the feeling he would but who knows
 
My natural test came back at 217 in the bloodwork I did prior to the start of my 1st cycle (which will end next week). My doc said anything below 300 was low.

I have clomid, nolva, and hcg on hand for post cycle recovery. I hope like hell I can recover to where my nuts should be.

If there's anything you'd change about the HCG/Nolva regimen to help recover from pre-existing low natural test levels, I'm all ears.

I don't know if it matters, but I've had a shitload of cortisone and kenalog shots over the last 7 years. I'm done with those, but I'm sure that's what fucked my natural test production.

My nuts have only made a slight change in size since I started the cycle, so there may be some hope for full natural recovery.
I don't have any desire to do replacement for life.

I'll be glad to post stats and info if anyone's interested.
 
Numberfive said:
My natural test came back at 217 in the bloodwork I did prior to the start of my 1st cycle (which will end next week). My doc said anything below 300 was low.

I have clomid, nolva, and hcg on hand for post cycle recovery. I hope like hell I can recover to where my nuts should be.

If there's anything you'd change about the HCG/Nolva regimen to help recover from pre-existing low natural test levels, I'm all ears.

I don't know if it matters, but I've had a shitload of cortisone and kenalog shots over the last 7 years. I'm done with those, but I'm sure that's what fucked my natural test production.

My nuts have only made a slight change in size since I started the cycle, so there may be some hope for full natural recovery.
I don't have any desire to do replacement for life.

I'll be glad to post stats and info if anyone's interested.
Click to expand...


The good news is that permanent shut down is very rare bro. Usually the nuts come back but it can take some time.

Did you use clomid post cycle and if so for how long?

RG
:)
 
lonewulf said:
does anastrozole stimulate test production to some degree, or just keep it from converting to estrogen?-WULF
Click to expand...


Some do believe that estrogen inhibitors help but I have my doubts.

RG:)
 
Realgains, A side question. Did I understand you to say that test, tren ect can still be absorbed through fat?
 
ROLGOR said:
Realgains, A side question. Did I understand you to say that test, tren ect can still be absorbed through fat?
Click to expand...

Sure.... but it will take some time and it hurts like a mother too....not a good idea.

RG:)
 
RG please tell me what you think. I tried to post this several times with no real response. I now have three weeks left on my 8 week test and anavar cycle. I have put on very lean mass (saying this because I don't think I have any water retention I am still 5-6%BF but my nips are a tiny bit puffy and THO. No iching or discomfort, or lumps though. I wanted to start taking nolva now in hope that it will help a little with my nips. Here is my post cycle please tell me what you think
nolva asap what dose????
7days after last cyp shot 2ius HCG every other day for ten days
12 days after last cyp shot clomid 250mg day 1 100mg 2-10 50mg to complete 3 weeks of clomid.
I didn't think you could use nolva and clomid together if I can what does would you recomend TONS of Karma coming at ya thanks in advance
 
HCG is best placed in the fridge once mixed; the life of it once refrigerated is 30days from what I heard.
HCG is used to bring back your normal test levels which will peak but slightly lower to a normal stable level, which I found out from getting tested before HCG with a test level of 520+nmol/L and then repeated the test twice during and after HCG.
My next cycle I do that goes over 16wks I plan on also running HCG just past the mid point and again at the end before clomid as I heard some have, and since I felt awesome at the end of this long cycle after HCG I just have to throw it in mid cycle just to be a happy camper.

T20, my experience from previous cycles is that I ran HCG @ 1500iu/every 4th day for 10,000iu’s. as well as 40mg/novaldex then clomid 300mg/day 1, 100mg/for 10, 50mg/for 10. Nolvadex only needs to be used during HCG as clomid properties are also an estrogen inhibitor.
Are you using any anti’e’s??? Liquidex?
Start Nolvadex @ 40mg/ed if nips are getting irritated and run until 3th day into clomid as Nolva is stronger against inhibiting estrogen production.
Hope this will help

Slider
 
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Realgains said:


During a cycle do not take large hits of HCG or you will desensitize the testes to LH...stick to 300-500iu's at a time.

BUT!...if you are shut down after a cycle and will not respond to normal clomid therapy then you need to follow my advice.
HCG can be taken subQ due to the small amount injected and its composition. Steroids can be taken sub Q too but it will hurt like HELL!

RG:)
Click to expand...

I tried to inject HCG sub Q but it hurt too much... what did I do wrong? I maybe injected 0.1ml, and had to shoot the leftover 0.4ml in my quad. Did I inject too close to the skin? (nerves and pain receptors...???)
 
Realgains said:



The good news is that permanent shut down is very rare bro. Usually the nuts come back but it can take some time.

Did you use clomid post cycle and if so for how long?

RG
:)
Click to expand...

REAL:
I have 1 more test injection before I begin my post-cycle regimen. This is my first cycle, and I had the blood work done prior to starting. It took a while for the blood work to come back, and I got tired of waiting for the results, so I got started with my cycle. I was pretty sure there was a problem with my pre-cycle natural test - which is why I started researching this board to begin with. I am very pleased with the results of the cycle, and if I can make a complete recovery of my natural test, that's all I can ask for.

All the info I used for my cycle I got here, and the research has paid off.

All my post cycle regimen will be centered on things I've learned from this board.

It goes without saying that I'm a thousand times better off from knowledge gained here than I would have been if I relied only on my doctor.

To date, the doc's mentioned nothing about seeing an endocrinologist, how the HPTA works, that hormone replacement is for life, etc. He prescribed 250mg/month of enanthate the week after I started my cycle because that's when the bloodwork came back. I've made use of what he's prescribed and included it with my cycle, but I don't want to rely on it for life.

I am damn glad to hear that permanent shutdown is extremely rare.
 
SOLID said:
do you guys run Anastrozole + Clomid for post cycle therapy or just Clomid?
Click to expand...


I have only used clomid or nolva. Some do use estrogen inhibitors and they seem to think they help.

The problem with estrogen inhibitors is that they have a terrible affect on ones blood lipid profile.

RG:)
 
I always try to make sure I have enough Liquidex to run me one month at least past clomid and now after great results HCG then Clomid.

Slider
 
I'm a big fan of HCG and use after every cycle per doctor. He has me going 16 days max on HCG, but its more like 2500iu's eod. Where do you find every fourth day most beneficial?

I realize from many post that recovery is not an exact science. Even after post therapy I would need to repeat the HCG/clomid nolvadex administration after a few months due to low free test on blood work.

I say this because I think many here decide by other means than a blood test to determine if they are back to normal. Not a good idea as i have been surprised by blood work results in the past.
 
GH will cure fina dick, I read that GH would get my test levels back to normal so i decided to try it. (well it worked great and fast) I had fina dick bad I tried clomid and hcg and it did nothing one month later still nothing. so decided to get back on test to see if that would help well it did nothing too, no hard on for 2-months I had to try something else, my friend had like 40iu of GH so I tried that. well would'nt you know it worked, the first week I started to get morning woody's and then in the midday I would just get a wood just sitting there, if I would not have tried GH I still would not be able to get a hard on, my wife just about gave up on me and i kept telling her it will come back one day, well now she is very happy, think god for GH
 
Rogue Warrior said:
Someone reply to hcg administration frequency. I was always directed eod. Whats the every 4 days deal??
Click to expand...


You could try smaller doses every day and it would probably work but it seems that the BIG HAMMER affect of large doses every 4th day works better for getting natural test back because one is hypogonadal.(It's the shock affect it gives to the testes....like an alarm clock in the morning he he he )

DURING a cycle its best to use small doses like 300-500iu's per day in order to PREVENT testicular atrophy in the first place as higher daily doses do run the risk of desensitizing the testes to LH.

RG
 
Rogue Warrior said:
I don't doubt what you are saying. Do you have any referenced material on the big hammer effect so I can set my doctor strait?
Click to expand...


actually the routine I gave above was from a doc that treats steroid users.
 
One fellow that used nandrolone had to use the following formula before his test returned to normal. NOTE: Nandrolone shuts one down more at the level of the testes making then unable to respond to LH quickly. Some people can use the suff and some cannot so I wouldn't gamble especially if you are an older bro.

Last chance formula.........this and my initial post formula's are all documented in a medical journal...I just can't remember which one now. I wrote it down a while ago but can't find the journal but trust me this is not "made up". My endochrinologist says it is a good one.

60 day treatment. 5000iu's of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 every other day for another 6 with 150iu's of menotropins. All along take 50 of clomid twice per day and 10 of nolva twice per day.

15 days after the treatment his LH was 9.8 and that was up form 1!, and his test was 507 and that was up from 45!

Good luck.

RG :)
 
So what would you tell someone who does not respond to Clomid or Nolvadex??

Clomid and Nolvadex does nothing for me. I've used quite a bit of HCG in my time, but it was 1000IU a day for 14 days, and that did nothing for recovering testicle size. I got morning woods, but no testicle hypertrophy.

I will use the last of my HCG in that "Hammer" style, but is there anything else I can do? I have plenty of clomid and Arimidex on hand, along with 10,000iu of HCG. How would you work this, and what else can I do to help myself?
 
Richard_Riddick said:
So what would you tell someone who does not respond to Clomid or Nolvadex??

Clomid and Nolvadex does nothing for me. I've used quite a bit of HCG in my time, but it was 1000IU a day for 14 days, and that did nothing for recovering testicle size. I got morning woods, but no testicle hypertrophy.

I will use the last of my HCG in that "Hammer" style, but is there anything else I can do? I have plenty of clomid and Arimidex on hand, along with 10,000iu of HCG. How would you work this, and what else can I do to help myself?
Click to expand...


If you have primary testicular failure then no amount of HCG or clomid/nolva will help. I would test your testosterone level after using HCG and clomid and if it is low and the testes did not get big and bouncy from the HCG then your're on test replacement bro.

RG

:)
 
Okay, how about this.

I've had to wait as long as 18 months to recover testicle size and function - so I might not have primary failure, but just am slow to respond. Anyway to quicken that up?
 
I wonder if anyone has tried this routine to raise moderate natural test levels ~500ng/dl to the upper range of ~800-900ng/dl. Any success?
 
also run some tribulas and horny goat weed with macca! good shit and this is coming from someone with 3 years in the game kids!
 
im 4 mos post cycle and in my pct i did hcg, clomid, and nolva, but now i still have like no sex drive and im not gettin hard-on or morning wood...i wanna kno if u think i should continue w/ the clomid w/o the hcg or add the hcg in...will stayin on the clomid have any adverse effects and if i use hcg now, wouldnt it shut me down a little?
 
great post


hey what do you think about stuff like unleashed? or some herbs that aid in raise of natural test

are they worthless?
 
This is all cool for the test problem but I have yet to see info about fixing the lipid profile. If your lipid profile is screwed up long enough you will be a buffed corpse. So any idea about getting HDL levels up?
 
My total test just came in at 302 ng/dl.
I am meeting with my endo on Thursday. It will be interesting to see what she has to say.
 
As some of you know I was shut down hard by 2 cycles of Deca and a botched PCT consisting of 10 days of HCG....and nothing else. My l;ast Deca shot was Dec.23 and 10 HCG only was started 2 weeks after......Lost libido and a blood test showed Test count of 108 w/ low LH and FSH. I'm having more blood work done in 2 weeks but now I feel very lethargic, slow, and depressed...If things look bad from the 2nd blood work test I'm considering trying to bring my own test back w/ HCG and Clomid.....



However I've found a life extension clinic online that claims to specialize in TRT that brings people's own test back, not just the lifelong treatments everyone else is selling. They work in conjunction w/ doctors and clinics in your local area. They are known as Modern Therapy. You guys can visit them online at www.moderntherapy.com.

I'm just trying to verify if these guys are legit and reputable and if their program seems realistic. Basically their program is as follows. They provide a bio-identical Test gel that is applied Mon-Sun for 3 months. Supposedly this helps you feel better and elevate you test (hopefully) to at least the 500-600 range. (Wouldn't this futher shut me down though ??)

Two weeks after that you begin HCG therapy EOD at 1000 units at a time (for 10 days) for a total of 1000 units. Clomid then may or may not be added (but I should probably request it). They also supply Teslax which is like Armidex I believe , but milder.They claim to have a decent success rate w/ anabolic users The program costs $595 if you bring in your own bloodwork, $795 otherwise.


What do you guys think of this whole deal ? Does it look legit to you ? Does anyone have any info on these guys ? Do you believe that's it's a mistake to introduce this bio-identical gel into the body (further shutting me down) ? Should I just give my body more time to see what happens or should I just run my own HCG/ Clomid therapy ?? ANY info, help, advice or resources would be VERY appreciated. Thankyou.
 
Sounds like just another cycle to me. If you're taking a testosterone supplement, cream, gel, or injection, your body still sees it as bio-available and decreases natural production.
 
Just found a place in Boca Raton , FL that has a similar program. They run HCG every day for 10 days 1000 units total) andClomid for 4-6 weeks. Total cost $300......$400 for 200MG a week (for 10 weeks) of Androgel IF it's included included in the therapy. What do you guys think ? The guy suggested to just run HCG and Clomid first, but to add androgel to try and eliviate the low test sides 1st immedietly if I insisted.
 
MADBALL99 said:
Wouldn't the hammer style effect of using HCG desensitize the testicles ??
Click to expand...

No it will not. Several studies have shown that if Nolva is taken in conjunction to HCG, it will prevent LH desensitization.



"Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization."
 
So the Nolva should be started at the same time as the HCG and continued for how long afterwards ? What about Clomid ? When, how much, and how long ??
 
Mr. Black said:
No it will not. Several studies have shown that if Nolva is taken in conjunction to HCG, it will prevent LH desensitization.



"Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization."
Click to expand...

Wouldn't Arimidex do this too and more effectively???
 
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