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is 225 pounds 225 pounds...?

DZLS

DZLS

New member
this may sound odd, but i think 225 pounds (2 45's on each side) feels lighter, than say a 45, 25, 10, and 2 5's on each side...

on my 5x5, i've been just adding weight to each side, and not bumping up to larger plates...

on Saturday i had to do 225 for 3, and decided to put on the plates, so i could feel "big"... ;) and i did the 3 with ease, but the 220 i did on Monday for 5 reps seemed heavy which i had a bunch of little plates on the bar...
 
could that be because the little plates are spread on the bar more and that gives you a different muscle work out or maybe a different angle of the muscle is worked out more which you have not noticed/developed before?
 
maybe i was just feeling stronger Saturday as opposed to Tuesday though...

dunno...

i guess there could be a couple of pounds lost on the 45's from chips if there were any...
 
BUBBLES said:
could that be because the little plates are spread on the bar more and that gives you a different muscle work out or maybe a different angle of the muscle is worked out more which you have not noticed/developed before?
Click to expand...

ya it works difrant stabelizer musculs.
 
Either the weights are a bit different, or the weights being spread out more causes more balance to be needed and makes the weight feel heavier. Try putting 135 or 225 on the bar with 45's and put them further out, near the ends of the bar. I think it'd feel a bit heavier.
 
Sometimes you hold back knowing that you have a set of five to do. A set of three will often feel easier just because you know that you only have three to do.
 
I was told by 1 of my old teachers when i was at school that if you had a long enough peice of something and u stud on the end of it you could lift the equivelant of the earth in like a see saw fashion. Imagine a see saw, if 2 people get on it both the same weight 1 stands near the middle and 1 stands near the end, the 1 standing near the end will lift up the person nearest to the middle. Maybe a simlar principle applies as loads get closer to the end of the bar.
Maybe i'm way off here and just talking jibberish, just a thought.
 
Introspective said:
I was told by 1 of my old teachers when i was at school that if you had a long enough peice of something and u stud on the end of it you could lift the equivelant of the earth in like a see saw fashion. Imagine a see saw, if 2 people get on it both the same weight 1 stands near the middle and 1 stands near the end, the 1 standing near the end will lift up the person nearest to the middle. Maybe a simlar principle applies as loads get closer to the end of the bar.
Maybe i'm way off here and just talking jibberish, just a thought.
Click to expand...
Archimedes, a deep thinker from ancient Greece, said something along the lines of "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it and I shall move the World".

The situation you refer to regarding the see-saw involves moments which relate to forces around a fulcrum or pivot point. It's possible that the spread of weights along the bar is sufficient to alter the stability in a noticable fashion if the lifter has a tendency to push harder on one side.
 
i think the reason is what introspective and BW pointed out... the lever action being different for the same weights but spread out at 2 different points from the fulcrum. in this case, the fulcrum is point at which your holding the bar. so you actually have 2 levers around 2 fulcrums on either side. the weight spread out probably requires more stabilizer muscle action as a result, hence you find it more difficult.
 
DZLS said:
this may sound odd, but i think 225 pounds (2 45's on each side) feels lighter, than say a 45, 25, 10, and 2 5's on each side...

on my 5x5, i've been just adding weight to each side, and not bumping up to larger plates...

on Saturday i had to do 225 for 3, and decided to put on the plates, so i could feel "big"... ;) and i did the 3 with ease, but the 220 i did on Monday for 5 reps seemed heavy which i had a bunch of little plates on the bar...
Click to expand...


its all in your head
 
Well the whole point of the triple on day 3 is to get you ready for the x5 lift on day 1. So maybe you're body is really adapting well to the training and you have gained a good amount of strength.

Or it could be mental or the fact that the weight is moved in closer or accuracy of the smaller plates like already mentioned...

I always throw on the seocnd 45 becasue I'm cool like that :D

I thought this thread was going to be about the % difference in weights between the plates and the use of microloading.

Anthrax Invasion said:
Why...yes. Yes they do.
Click to expand...

And I would have to say those people are 100% right.
 
I will assume it's what bw said.

I once also heard that the more little weights on the bar.. the larger pull by gravity..
 
Introspective said:
If there was more pull by gravity it would weigh more.
Click to expand...

true but only partially.

holding a brick and a 2x4 in your hand at their centers, the weight is the weight of the brick and board, but hold the 2x4 with the brick suspended at the end. it still weighs the same but "feels" heavier due to a lack of leverage. as weights move out from their center of gravity, the slightest shift of balance can make them "heavier".
 
Ever put your weights on the scale? I did once because one side of the bar felt heavier than the other. The one 45lb plate weighed 42.5 and the other 44lbs.

Cheap ass plates.
 
bignate73 said:
true but only partially.

holding a brick and a 2x4 in your hand at their centers, the weight is the weight of the brick and board, but hold the 2x4 with the brick suspended at the end. it still weighs the same but "feels" heavier due to a lack of leverage. as weights move out from their center of gravity, the slightest shift of balance can make them "heavier".
Click to expand...


Bingo, shift in center of gravity due to further spread of the active load. Therefore if either side were to have a discrepency the cumulative effect would be greater. Thus your stabilization must adjust and focus on primary movement is blurred.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Well, I can say that I have a 5' bar and a 7' bar, and when I do bench press with the 5' bar it seems easier than the 7' bar. I suspect that the fulcrum effect happens as the majority of weight moves away from the center of your body- making the same poundage feel like more than it is (or less, in the case of the shorter bar).
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
Why...yes. Yes they do.
Click to expand...

I hate to break it to you guys but I got my undergrad in Civil Engineering and working on Masters. The centroid (center of mass) of the 2 semetric objects (2 45's and 25,2 10's) with 2 support reactions (your arms) is the same. The entire mass acts at the centroid and therefore the mass acts at the same place both ways.
 
Scotsman said:
Bingo, shift in center of gravity due to further spread of the active load. Therefore if either side were to have a discrepency the cumulative effect would be greater. Thus your stabilization must adjust and focus on primary movement is blurred.

Cheers,
Scotsman
Click to expand...

incorrect.
 
steelmass said:
I hate to break it to you guys but I got my undergrad in Civil Engineering and working on Masters. The centroid (center of mass) of the 2 semetric objects (2 45's and 25,2 10's) with 2 support reactions (your arms) is the same. The entire mass acts at the centroid and therefore the mass acts at the same place both ways.
Click to expand...

Care to explain why the same amount of weight on a 7' olympic bar is more difficult to lift than on a 5' or 6' bar?

Oh, and I don't care what your degrees are. That doesn't tell me much, 'cause there are too many assholes out there with degrees that don't know anything. Not to say you're one of them, but don't y'all be spammin' degrees at me. Them's fightin' words, kidlum.
 
Because the only difference in 7' olympic bar and 5' is the bending moment which is distributed throughout the bar (Basically it causes the bar to bend, which is only an internal force and is not distributed vertically).

The best way I can explain it is by a theorem of statics, vector mechanics. The Axial force (perpendicular to the bar) cannot exceed the load. The only thing that placement of the weights effects is the bending-moment, which will bend the bar but will not be translated in the vertical direction.

Basically, if this were a statics problem you would sum the forces in the y direction both ways and find that it does not matter. The only difference would be the sum of the moment about the left arm and right arm would be greater.

If you do indeed have a good olympic bar the bending moment should not matter because it will not bend. It is purely psychological.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
Care to explain why the same amount of weight on a 7' olympic bar is more difficult to lift than on a 5' or 6' bar?

Oh, and I don't care what your degrees are. That doesn't tell me much, 'cause there are too many assholes out there with degrees that don't know anything. Not to say you're one of them, but don't y'all be spammin' degrees at me. Them's fightin' words, kidlum.
Click to expand...

lol funny... its just about the only thing i have an expertise (or soon atleast) in. I'd do much better with a biochem major on this board.
 
leverage has little, actually nothing, to do with it IMO. there is no fulcrum in this situation. trust me. the culprit is probably inaccurate weights. has anyone else here ever weighed the shit weights that are in most gyms? i have. 10% discrepancy is on the good side usually. its very, very likely that most of the weights you lift dont weigh what they say. going from using all change (5's, 10's, etc) to using 45's, its very likely that the bar weight didnt increase 5lbs. one of the days you were probably way light, or the other way heavy. cheap weights in commercial gyms are only rough approximations of what they say they are. thats a fact. ive weighed plenty of 45's that weigh less than 40lbs, and many that weigh 47 or 48, some that weigh 50. use the same weights every time. if you can.
 
Ok.. I'm a physics major and what everyone is saying about the levers and such doesn't work...

It's called torque... Assuming the weights on each side are exactly equal and you grip evenly on the bar then all the torque cancels out. If it didn't you'd have one side dropping toward the ground and one side lifting... Trust me you would notice this and reposition yourself. It doesn't matter how far out the plates are, as long as they are the same distance from the center of the bar the torque will cancel out and it will have no effect on how heavy the lift feels.

The only plausible explanation is what was mentionned above being that the smaller plates have larger discrepancies in actual weight. A 0.4kg error on 8 plates versus a 0.4kg error on 4 plates is a pretty big difference (I just pulled those numbers out of my ass)
 
deeder said:
Ok.. I'm a physics major and what everyone is saying about the levers and such doesn't work...

It's called torque... Assuming the weights on each side are exactly equal and you grip evenly on the bar then all the torque cancels out. If it didn't you'd have one side dropping toward the ground and one side lifting... Trust me you would notice this and reposition yourself. It doesn't matter how far out the plates are, as long as they are the same distance from the center of the bar the torque will cancel out and it will have no effect on how heavy the lift feels.

The only plausible explanation is what was mentionned above being that the smaller plates have larger discrepancies in actual weight. A 0.4kg error on 8 plates versus a 0.4kg error on 4 plates is a pretty big difference (I just pulled those numbers out of my ass)
Click to expand...

Ya look at the side of your weights, if they have a sprial on them it means they've been weighed and ground down (hopefully accurately). If not then there is no chance in hell. Huge %Difference in casting iron plates.
 
i guess, the moral of the story has to be "shutup & lift".... ;)
most plates are usually not even close to accurate as has been mentioned. i've weighed plates a few times myself and found this out.
 
deeder said:
Ok.. I'm a physics major and what everyone is saying about the levers and such doesn't work...

It's called torque... Assuming the weights on each side are exactly equal and you grip evenly on the bar then all the torque cancels out. If it didn't you'd have one side dropping toward the ground and one side lifting... Trust me you would notice this and reposition yourself. It doesn't matter how far out the plates are, as long as they are the same distance from the center of the bar the torque will cancel out and it will have no effect on how heavy the lift feels.
Click to expand...

exactly the point, this nothing is exactly equal. grips arent exactly equal nor are forces on both sides, balance over center shifts and it exaggerates the load on the longer and lower arm from center. we're talking about a bench press on a squishy bench, in 2 independently moving supports.

this was the main argument for the 5ft bar vs the 7ft bar. load a 5 ft bar on someones back off center, and load a 7ft bar off center and you'll definitely notice a difference. the only difference we are talking about here is a center balance point(back) vs dual supports (hands) but the example can be illustrated the same.
 
silver_shadow said:
i guess, the moral of the story has to be ----------"shutup & lift"-------------.... ;)
most plates are usually not even close to accurate as has been mentioned. i've weighed plates a few times myself and found this out.
Click to expand...
shutup & lift
 
I would guess it would be more the fact that you may have just been more fired up or stronger on one given day as compared to another. I really, really doubt that the plates are off more than perhaps a few ounces.
 
bignate73 said:
exactly the point, this nothing is exactly equal. grips arent exactly equal nor are forces on both sides, balance over center shifts and it exaggerates the load on the longer and lower arm from center. we're talking about a bench press on a squishy bench, in 2 independently moving supports.

this was the main argument for the 5ft bar vs the 7ft bar. load a 5 ft bar on someones back off center, and load a 7ft bar off center and you'll definitely notice a difference. the only difference we are talking about here is a center balance point(back) vs dual supports (hands) but the example can be illustrated the same.
Click to expand...

I second this. I dont have a degree in physics or engineering, but this is life, not some vectors on a sheet of paper. The only constant here is the vector of the gravity force, all the other things are damn variable. The pressing movement is complex, you dont have one force pushing in one direction there, and no way you push with equal force with both arms. The center of gravity DOESNT move simply up and down, there is lots of lateral movement involved. And you cant tell me that it is the same with a bar where the plates are near your hands, and with a bar where the plates are far away from them.

If you dont believe this, try doing standing military presses with the barbells some people do biceps curls with (it has to be a sufficient weight, though, most gyms do have them up to 60 kg), and compare it with an olympic bar, same weight. You will notice the difference. And you cant calculate this with lines on a sheet of paper. Not all the micromovements involved.

Although the weights of the plates do differ, so there are 2 probable causes me thinks.

Anyways.
 
Maks said:
I second this. I dont have a degree in physics or engineering, but this is life, not some vectors on a sheet of paper. The only constant here is the vector of the gravity force, all the other things are damn variable. The pressing movement is complex, you dont have one force pushing in one direction there, and no way you push with equal force with both arms. The center of gravity DOESNT move simply up and down, there is lots of lateral movement involved. And you cant tell me that it is the same with a bar where the plates are near your hands, and with a bar where the plates are far away from them.

If you dont believe this, try doing standing military presses with the barbells some people do biceps curls with (it has to be a sufficient weight, though, most gyms do have them up to 60 kg), and compare it with an olympic bar, same weight. You will notice the difference. And you cant calculate this with lines on a sheet of paper. Not all the micromovements involved.

Although the weights of the plates do differ, so there are 2 probable causes me thinks.

Anyways.
Click to expand...
i don't know... i'm guessing: i think the piece of paper does not take into account the stabilizer muscle action required which is not a vertical force. i guess it would work fine if the weight was on something like a forklift where it will always rest comfortably on the fork. however as a lifter, you'd actually be exerting forces with a horizontal component just to stabilize the bar... aka stabilizer muscles. i'm still guessing that would be the most obvious difference. it's similar to the difference between free weights and the smith machine.... something to chew on....
 
LOL! the thread has officially degraded to just funny!

if you have a long thin nose, is it the same weight as a short thick one? relative to one's face? which would be heavier?
 
that depends ... how many people fit into the long thin one ? And, is this with or without steroids ?
 
If you want to put up 225, I have always been told to put two 45s instead of building up to 225 with multiple plates because with just the two 45s it will balance the weight out better. Does that make any sense.
 
Brad87 said:
If you want to put up 225, I have always been told to put two 45s instead of building up to 225 with multiple plates because with just the two 45s it will balance the weight out better. Does that make any sense.
Click to expand...

According to Glenn and that other guy (Mr. I-Have-Degrees :)), no it doesn't make sense. Read the thread - we went over all of that already. Stop wasting board space.
 
steelmass said:
I hate to break it to you guys but I got my undergrad in Civil Engineering and working on Masters. The centroid (center of mass) of the 2 semetric objects (2 45's and 25,2 10's) with 2 support reactions (your arms) is the same. The entire mass acts at the centroid and therefore the mass acts at the same place both ways.
Click to expand...

you got to it before i could. agreed
 
Not if you have a tilt, a smooth bar and no collars. The small change ends up all over the bar. Obviously, in a case of immovable point masses your calculations would be pertinent but in the real world...

I reckon it's a mixture of ill-standardized weights and an expectation on the part of the lifter that it's heavier. I prefer to use lots of small change, confident that it'll be a much easier lift.
 
To add fuel to the fire:

I was doing DE box squats today with 275: 2 plates and a 25 per side. I didn't use clips. On one side the plates moved out several inches when I adjusted my stance to begin the lift. I perceived no difference whatsoever during the set. Also, I often do my light sets of rows w/out clips and the plate on one side will move more than the other. I can't tell a difference in those cases either. So I don't see how tiny variations in the distance of the plates from the lifter's hands would have any effect on the feel of the weight, esp. considering that those forces would be balanced out by the other side.
 
it's most likely a varaition in the actual weights of the plates, and not an issue of leverage or a flucrum... there isn't even a fulcrum during the lift cause it's not a lever motion, is it...?

a fulcrum would only be there if you were benching with one arm...
 
If the weights do move then the forces (moments) on each side will not be matched which means that one side of your body is taking more strain than the other.

For a squat it's less pronounced due to the nature of the lift and the way you hold the bar. I've taken a bar out of the squat rack with 10Kg (~20lbs) more on one side. Obviously, I re-racked it but it was a lot less hassle than if I'd been in a bench with a similar discrepancy.

Still, almost certainly weights errors.
 
I weighed my plates after reading what Glenn posted. My 15kg bumper plates both weighed 15.1, my normal oly plates both weighed 15.2 each my normal 20kg oly plates both weighed 20.05 each.
 
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