Important Question For More Experienced Lifters!

[Xenith]

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a VOLUME VS HIT ARGUMENT!!

This is a question that has been burning and baffling me for a while, aimed at those who are more experienced (2-3 years or so) and thus somewhere between intermediate and advanced. After numerous searches I thought I would post it up to try get a more definitive answer or set or arguments going.

When devising a workout split with primary goals of hypertrophy/mass gain, I would like to determine the recommended trend in terms of frequency. To explain it better: as you progress and become more advanced, should frequency go up or down? I have seen bits here and there about these theories but no real A vs B discussion. Some say when you start you can work muscles 3x a week, then need to reduce it to 2x and finally 1x a week, even so far as to hit them only once every 9-10 days. Some also say you could start at 1x a week but gradually need to hit them more often as they recover within 48-72 hours.

The purpose of the discussion is FREQUENCY but volume cannot be completely excluded. Thus instead of arguing high vs low volume (again, please no volume-trainer x HIT arguments! ) I would like to discuss how volume would be affected by frequency. I demonstrate using a test case (with increasing frequency; obvioulsy the opposite would apply for the frequency reduction scenario):

John Doe used to work muscles 1x a week. He trained large muscles for 16 sets and small muscles for 12 sets. After 3 years advancing with his training, he now goes for a higher frequency split hitting them twice a week. Should he:
A) Keep overall volume the same and train muscles for 8/6 sets per workout(large/small muscles)
B) Reduce the volume per workout eg. 6/4 sets
C) Increase volume per workout eg. 10/8 sets

Your advice, input, viewpoints are welcome. Lets try and keep it clean and productive (unlike so many threads that, no matter what the topic, end up in a volume vs HIT heated argument).

Cheers,
X

 

[casualbb]

The dual-factor view of fatigue is correct

More specifically, fatigue accumulates and dissipates over a period of weeks, not from workout to workout. In fact, waiting to fully recover fatigue after every workout will result in a training frequency that is too low to maximize growth. So the frequency should be at least 2x/week.

What changes as a lifter progresses isn't anything that has to do with the frequency. The muscles still grow in the same way and take the same amount of time to do it. What does change however is that they are more resistant to growth. Muscle conditioning lasts for quite some time and accumulates as one lifts for many months/years. So as a lifter becomes more experienced, he needs to add more volume in order to keep growing. Additionally, lighter weights and higher reps (say 15-ish) used to be effective for growing... later due to muscle conditioning one may need to use less than 10 reps and weights closer to your max.

 

[Xenith]

Hmmmm....I have heard that too (that the key is a need for increased volume).

I personally have to change routines due to a new job. I only have the 5 weekdays to train, and would like to up the frequency. I am just afraid that 2-way splits (eg. upper/lower) may take too long, or not be able to work each muscle to its full potential. What workout routine would you suggest?

I currently have the following I am thinking of changing to:
1. Lower/Abs and Upper days, each done 2x a week
2. Legs/Shoulder and Chest/Back/Arms, each done 2x a week (I feel this would be more balanced in terms of time and volume, than a straight upper/lower)
2. Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull (upper body 2x/week, lower 1x/week). I am weary though of overtraining.

Any advice is appreciated,
X

 

[b fold the truth]

At times...I need different things in my training.

Sometimes...my training is long and full of all kinds of volume. Sometimes...it is REALLY heavy as well. Sometimes it is long and full of lighter reps. At times...I just get in there and do a few INTENSE sets and get the heck out.

The key to this game is knowing your body and never falling too far behind with predicting what it needs.

B True

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I definitely think the freqency with which you train a muscle will ultimately effect it's size and strength.

I would use HST(hypertrophy specific training) based on your goals.

Or you could use madcow2's variation on a classic Bill Starr 5x5 split(one of the best strength coaches ever) which I am currently using and like ALOT.

Both of these programs use science and are time tested and proven on thousands of athletes.

I used to train 6 days a week in high school and made ok gains up to a point and then never went anywhere. One of the problems was too much volume, not enough rest and taking EVERY single set to failure. Failure sucks imo and I've taken hundreds of sets to failure, maybe thousands. It does not guarantee muscle growth or strength increases as so many would have you believe. It is not even a prerequesite for muscle growth or strength. It just plain overtaxes you unless you have a super-duper recovery ability.

I've also trained on the opposite side of the spectrum. I used to do Mentzer style workouts and would train twice in a 9-10 day period htting upperbody in one and lower the other with about 3-4 exercises each workout with only 1 working set taken to absolute momentary muscular failure with a static pause on the last rep until I couldn't hold it and then a superslow negative. Talk about CNS draining! I couldn't work out any more freqently than that because it would tax me so bad.

Now I'm doing madcow2's 5x5 routine that's based on the dual-factor theory and loving it! I get to do the best exercises more than once a week! This not only speeds muscle developement, but also increases coordination and CNS adaptations! I get to squat 3x a week and bench twice a week in the volume phase. Having no problems whatsoever doing this.

Compared to other routines this has a very high frequency of training the same muscle groups because it utilizes only the most result producing compound exercises and let's you train them more than once a week. Same for HST.

Anyone who says you can't train a muscle or exercise more than once or twice a week obviously does not understand how to regulate volume and intensity.

The russian(I think) 3x3 program is another program that has a high level of volume and training frequency and for those that can handle it, get good gains from it from what I've heard.

Training a muscle once a week is sub-optimal for strength gains and sub-optimal for size gains too.

A good way to validate this is to do a rather paired down training routine concentrating on only the basics, but giving attention to one specific muscle group and training it hard 3x a week. I guarantee that that muscle will grow like wild fire! The reason is becasue you arenot overdoing it on the volume and frequency of your main routine and are able to put that energy into training a single muscle to bring it up to speed with the others. This is a very old method, but I think it shows that with proper regulation of volume and intensity, you can train morefrequently and get better results depending on what your goals are.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a VOLUME VS HIT ARGUMENT!!

This is a question that has been burning and baffling me for a while, aimed at those who are more experienced (2-3 years or so) and thus somewhere between intermediate and advanced. After numerous searches I thought I would post it up to try get a more definitive answer or set or arguments going.

When devising a workout split with primary goals of hypertrophy/mass gain, I would like to determine the recommended trend in terms of frequency. To explain it better: as you progress and become more advanced, should frequency go up or down? I have seen bits here and there about these theories but no real A vs B discussion. Some say when you start you can work muscles 3x a week, then need to reduce it to 2x and finally 1x a week, even so far as to hit them only once every 9-10 days. Some also say you could start at 1x a week but gradually need to hit them more often as they recover within 48-72 hours.

The purpose of the discussion is FREQUENCY but volume cannot be completely excluded. Thus instead of arguing high vs low volume (again, please no volume-trainer x HIT arguments! ) I would like to discuss how volume would be affected by frequency. I demonstrate using a test case (with increasing frequency; obvioulsy the opposite would apply for the frequency reduction scenario):

John Doe used to work muscles 1x a week. He trained large muscles for 16 sets and small muscles for 12 sets. After 3 years advancing with his training, he now goes for a higher frequency split hitting them twice a week. Should he:
A) Keep overall volume the same and train muscles for 8/6 sets per workout(large/small muscles)
B) Reduce the volume per workout eg. 6/4 sets
C) Increase volume per workout eg. 10/8 sets

Your advice, input, viewpoints are welcome. Lets try and keep it clean and productive (unlike so many threads that, no matter what the topic, end up in a volume vs HIT heated argument).

Cheers,
X

try your theory and see if it works for "you"..no one here is going to be able to tell you the right answer..youl have to be intelligent enogh to figure out ok this is not working..if not youll just end up like the countless sheep that frequent every gym across america

 

[Madcow2]

The responses you've already gotten are great - and this is a good question so that says something about the quality of this board. I remember around 4 years ago and I didn't even bother to post in this forum (not that I'm some huge authority or above others as we all start out at zero but it was really bad from what I recall - and that really sucks because that's why all these kids with modest goals jump on roids with their "diet and training is perfect I'm just plateaued BS).

I will throw in and I wish I had a good source handy but I'm on vacation so I can't refer you to it (I believe it's Dreschler's Encyclopedia of Weightlifting) that as an athlete progresses he is able to handle significantly increased volume. As you identified volume and frequency are very much in bed together in that frequency is the allocation of total volume over a period. As a lifter progresses the increased ability to handle more volume will drive the need to increase frequency otherwise one ends up with too lengthy workouts or a quality drop in certain exercises out of exhaustion - a good example of this is the routines made popular by the Bulgarian OL teams where they handle mutliple workouts per day and spread out a fairly massive workload over time. All that said there is a lot of variation in between individuals' tolerance and work capacity at all levels. Some top athletes can handle near superhuman volume with a high percentage of their total reps north of 80% while others can't nearly approach this and they lift at the same level. The generality though is that capacity for workload increases as a given lifter gains experience and that one will likely find the need to more evenly distribute the work throughout the week.

Now for my usual caveate - at the very top the weights being utilized are so taxing that total volume will actually decrease a bit to accomodate the lifter.

Got to run but anyway - that's my take on it and like I said, a very good question.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

The responses you've already gotten are great - and this is a good question so that says something about the quality of this board. I remember around 4 years ago and I didn't even bother to post in this forum (not that I'm some huge authority or above others as we all start out at zero but it was really bad from what I recall - and that really sucks because that's why all these kids with modest goals jump on roids with their "diet and training is perfect I'm just plateaued BS).

I will throw in and I wish I had a good source handy but I'm on vacation so I can't refer you to it (I believe it's Dreschler's Encyclopedia of Weightlifting) that as an athlete progresses he is able to handle significantly increased volume. As you identified volume and frequency are very much in bed together in that frequency is the allocation of total volume over a period. As a lifter progresses the increased ability to handle more volume will drive the need to increase frequency otherwise one ends up with too lengthy workouts or a quality drop in certain exercises out of exhaustion - a good example of this is the routines made popular by the Bulgarian OL teams where they handle mutliple workouts per day and spread out a fairly massive workload over time. All that said there is a lot of variation in between individuals' tolerance and work capacity at all levels. Some top athletes can handle near superhuman volume with a high percentage of their total reps north of 80% while others can't nearly approach this and they lift at the same level. The generality though is that capacity for workload increases as a given lifter gains experience and that one will likely find the need to more evenly distribute the work throughout the week.

Now for my usual caveate - at the very top the weights being utilized are so taxing that total volume will actually decrease a bit to accomodate the lifter.

Got to run but anyway - that's my take on it and like I said, a very good question.

to give an example of what you are trying to say..take chuck vogelpohl..if you dont know who he is hes the lightest person (220) ever to squat over 1k..anyway hes an advanced lifter who does huge amonts of volume..should you copy him ? NO..im sure if i look a i may be able to find it but i was reading something on EF about how chuck very slowly added in xtra workouts..most of these xtra workouts were abs/lats/low back type stuff..he doesnt hit the gym and try to do a max on bb rows 3 times per day..things are done for reps with bands weights etc..

 

[WalkingBeast]

Ive been training 10 years now. Ive always trained in my own style however, incorporating many principles and ideas into my routines. In the beginning most of my lifting routines were mostly freestyle. I just trained to full body exhaustion for many hours. Ive continued that trend for 10 years straight. I cant say whats optimal, even for myself. I train for much more then growth or increased strength. Its a necessary vent. Ive been off already a few weeks cuz of my back being all fucked up for the moment, and things are already starting to get extremely hostile! A few things have held true for me though. The stronger Ive gotten the more it tears my body up. The more rest I need if I want to keep limbs attached. So frequency has decreased for me. At one point I trained very high volume as well as hitting each muscle twice a week. These routines were 6 days a week. Often I went 10 or more days straight with no rest day, at very high volume. Hours upon hours in the gym. Most all my sets to failure and beyond, as usual. I cant train at that frequency with the weights and volume I use anymore. How did I make up for this loss of frequency? More fucking volume to feed my addiction! Sessions became 5-8 hours, 4-5 times a week. Very high volume and intensity. Body parts are only trained once a week for the most part. A few body parts may get hit twice. Biceps occasionally gets hit twice and chest often has two days and over 40 sets. One day for inclines and another for flats. Now that Im wearing out my spine and everything else, I may experiment with some different methods. Volume may be slightly lower (slightly) and I may try more of a bodybuilding approach for a while instead of focusing as much on strength. Im even considering some type of extreme bodyweight training method. When my back allows I may try massive amounts of push-ups and chin-ups to come back strong, before hitting heavy weights again. Ultimately there is no universal answer. You have to learn to guage your own recovery abilities and progress in the gym. Keeping a journal helps me majorly. There is never a crystal clear answer as everyone would like to think. What works at one time period can change as your body changes. My mindset has always been, training is life and death, I have nothing to lose. Its not necessary to be this fucking obsessed, itll fuck you up! I will never stop KILLING SHIT though. I fucking bleed steel! KEEP KILLING THAT SHIT!!