alright, let me tell you something else, the way you posted that thread makes me feel that you want an excuse for not reaching a certain level before using aas. you can get pretty fucking strong without drugs, but you can get even stronger with drugs. the way i see it is that with the right attitude, training program, and other factors you can get as strong naturally as your mind will take you. if you dont have the mentality to tackle the big weights then nothing can help you.