How responsible is the UAW regarding Ford's situation?

[theoak01]

So, without making a single change in equipment, 30 people are doing 2 1/2 times the work of 250 people?

I'm going to tell you something so shocking that you might want to sit down before reading it.




Are you sitting down? Good, here it is.


During a labor strike no company in the world is going to say that the strike is hurting them, especially when they try to bring in replacement workers.

I know, it's shocking, isn't it.

obviously they wont admit it to the union,but i was working with behind the scenes and did security for the vice president of that company for a few days as his driver etc,i sat in on meetings where these things were discussed, he has no reason to bullshit me,nothing he told me would ever get passed on to the union as i hated those pricks with a passion.

in todays work force alot of manufacturing is automated,once the machines are set up and running it takes little man power to keep things rolling,especially in a steel mill

edit-there is still another union in the plant with other workers still working there job aswell and lending a hand,i should have added that

 

[spongebob]

30,000 people are to be laid off by Ford in the near future as Ford fights for its existence. There are many factors in this, foremost of which is the diminution of market share that Ford has suffered at the hands of foreign competition, but there are others.

1) Design- the vehicles they are producing are clearly not what people want.

2) Reputation- they have a bad reputation in the core categories, with the exception of trucks and SUVs. This reputation is partially because they are still not made as well as foreign vehicles, partially because they made absolute garbage a long time ago and people remember that, and partially because rebates have cheapened their products as people now will not pay sticker because they expect the discount.

3) Scandals- the Firestone/Explorer thing really hurt them, as did the recall on their halo car, the GT, and the numerous recalls of the Focus, their popular compact. It goes toward reputation, but it really stands alone as indicators of both poor reputation and design.

However, they are also burdened with massive pay, healthcare, and pension problems. The average UAW worker makes well over $20 per hour with benefits, and what has Ford gotten for this outlay? Reduction in market share on a grand scale, shoddy construction, and burdensome obligations that threaten to drive Ford out of business.

Has the UAW basically negotiated Ford out of business? I think they may have. Ford, of course, is complicit in the deal because negotiations go both ways, but check this out: all UAW workers laid off this year get full base pay and benefits until September of next year. Those that don't continue to make up to 5 times the current minimum wage plus benefits, which is a deal that a lot of people would kill for, except that unions are a bitch to get into. It is estimated that Ford will have to pay $475 million this year to do the layoffs. And, of course, they still have to negotiate with the UAW, who will likely do what the airline unions did and fight tooth and nail for what many would consider to be outrageous salaries.

But, again, what does Ford have to show for some of the highest salaries in the business? Poor reputation, inferior workmanship, defects galore, generally poor ratings from the media, and years and years of moribund sales.

Does the UAW bear any responsibility for this situation? Note that the same argument can be made for GM as well. How much of it is corporate, and how much is the union?

you listed three factors for fords demise but lay most blaim on the workers. how do you attribute 'reduction in market share' to the union? how do you extrapolate shoddy construction to the workers. explain specifically how you came to that conclusion. i.e. 'ford is notorious for bolts falling out'. or is it shoddy design? which is a management problem.

what is salary workers costing them in pay and benefits? id really like to know that considering they are the ones responsible for R&D, sales, market shares. but you havent made a one claim of them being overpaid.

lmao at 'outrageous salaries'.

id argue with you about that and your mention of low skilled jobs but its pointless. my take is you've never worked in any industry, you really dont know the subtleties of what goes on, with unions and companies.

 

[spongebob]

20$/h to build cars ? There you have the answer. One of the reason why GM closed the plant (the one who once built the Camaros) here. Guys were making as much money as the average accountant/entry level lawyer.

lol.

20/hr is nothing dude. people who do sheetrock make that.

lol

 

[spongebob]

1. Unions are mostly outdated; Most of the functions they originally served have been taken over by Federal/State agencies, laws, and federal regulations. The only real use unions serve is to artificially inflate wages and benefit packages thus passing the cost on to consumers.

2. A friend of mine was an efficiency expert working for auto companies in the early 90's. He claimed you could cut the work force in half and remain equally productive.

3. The UAW is a monopoly but not subject to the anti-monopoly laws that govern corporations. Would anyone feel sorry for a monopolistic company that charged three times what the market would bear for their product; Then ended up being put out of business by an efficiently priced foreign product?

That being said, crap products and mismanagement are also responsible.

have you ever been in a union?

what functions taken over by the govt are you referring to?

 

[spongebob]

I would prefer a group of people making $8/Hr. I'd prefer the automobile to cost about 30% less. Quality sucks on US assembly lines with the $25/hr people, what makes you think that it would be worse otherwise? Paying a person more without giving them incentive to work harder or smarter defeats the purpose of merit promotion.

Quality should be built into a product, not deficiency inspected out. That's a different argument for a different thread.

a couple of major problems with 8/hr is high turnover. it ends up costing you more.

i promise you at 8/hr bolts would literally be falling off.

what your speaking of is design issues.

 

[redguru]

Spongebob, my problem with unions is being required to belong to one. I want to negotiate my terms seperately. If I do a better job than Union worker next to me, I want to be compensated better. If I increase the profit margin for a company more than the worker next to me, I expect more than him. Collective bargaining has its benefits but also has its downfalls. The biggest downfall is the implicit encouragement of apathy on the part of the worker. If all level III assembly workers with 10 years on the job get exactly the same pay, what benefit is it for one to perform as good as or better than the other?

 

[spongebob]

unions had there time when they were a good thing,now the labour board provides all that,i never worked for some bullshit union and i always got these things

the labor board in the US is a joke.

most people that make comments similar to this about how there are laws in place now to protect workers, really dont have a clue what thier talking about. its just a talking point they've read somewhere.

 

[spongebob]

yes they got these things made laws,now that workers rights are protected by LAW unions only work at getting lazy ass workers more money and protecting them from being fired.

ill give an example as i worked security/private investigation at a strike for a steel plant thats an automotive feeder plant.

250 works go on strike,30 replacement workers are brought in, they increase production 240%,the ministry came in and said they never say the plant running so well .

union workers want to go back to work when the union is still telling them to hold out and wait for a deal,however behind the scenes they dont know that the plant told the union to go pound sand and that talks are off because the plant is still making mroe moeny paying our company 290k a week and then paying the other employees, ie scabs,and other workers in a different union to work there.

tell me what good the union is doing for these people?

your an idiot if you believe that. they used the management too, working them 24/7 to be able to continue the work.

 

[Deterass]

It isn't any more difficult than any other industrial setting in America. However, they are the highest paid of any assembly line laborers in America. Why is that? The UAW. There is no reason that work requiring no skill set should be paid higher than those that require an education or experience in the field.

I know several peeps who work at a Nissan plant and although they do make very good money they also work their asses off for it......and btw they don't have UAW to represent them.
UAW claims to protect the employees but in reality it protects the lazy bastards who are losing money for companies while they fuck off for $20 an hour.

 

[spongebob]

Intransigence kills businesses.

Unions create intransigence, because a CEOs decision has to be improved by line workers. It's idiotic.

more textbook crap!