How can T3 NOT work?

[KingC]

Ok, my Dr and I are both baffled at this one.
I am on compounded slow release T3.
Ramped up all the way to 90 mcg 2x day and NO effect.
No jitters, no heart racing and more importantly NO loss of bodyfat. Actually seem to go up a few pounds!

So I tried a different T3 just to be sure what I got was real. Both came from pharmacies.

Again, same story.
Started at 225lb and now at 230lb, bf in the 25% range.
Diet isnt clean, but only about 2000 cals a day if that.

I can take this stuff and go to sleep for 8 hours.

Is there something that I need to take with it, or anyone explain why it has no effect on me at all.
Same w/ Clen I tried in the past.
Now caffene will make me wired if I take enough, but no fat burning effect.

I read somewhere that T3 needs epinephrine or something to work, or triggers it to burn fat maybe?

None the less, with the amt of T3 I take, Id think Id be a rail?

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Can be lots of things. T3 doesn;t make the tyroid work any more efficiently. It actually suppresses thyroid function. That's why T4 is usually prescribed for hypothyroidism. It provides the materials for the body to convert to T3. In a way, the thyroid is like the body's thermastat and it needs to get the proper signals to set it correctly. Giving it T3 breaks the thermostat and sets it in one place.

Check out ZIP from Protein Factory Inc. It hypes the thyroid without suppression.

 

[sensational]

Can be lots of things. T3 doesn;t make the tyroid work any more efficiently. It actually suppresses thyroid function. That's why T4 is usually prescribed for hypothyroidism. It provides the materials for the body to convert to T3. In a way, the thyroid is like the body's thermastat and it needs to get the proper signals to set it correctly. Giving it T3 breaks the thermostat and sets it in one place.

Check out ZIP from Protein Factory Inc. It hypes the thyroid without suppression.

I don't think that was what he was asking.

To the point of the thread: Some people are just resistant to the effects of certain drugs. I have never really heard of thyroid insensitivity, but it doesn't mean that it can't happen.

It sounds like you are just going to have to bite the bullet, tighten up your diet, and add a significant amount of cardio...

Good luck, and that really sucks.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't think that was what he was asking.

To the point of the thread: Some people are just resistant to the effects of certain drugs. I have never really heard of thyroid insensitivity, but it doesn't mean that it can't happen.

It sounds like you are just going to have to bite the bullet, tighten up your diet, and add a significant amount of cardio...

Good luck, and that really sucks.

I actually was addressing it, giving a possible answer. To say that some people are resistant to drugs, well that's obviously the case. I believe he wanted to know WHY.


Diet is key, but cardio will just suppress the thyroid more.

 

[wolfman87]

obviously building muscle will burn more fat and your diet is even more important. eat clean 5-6 times a day to speed up metabolism, workout/walk, and taking this zip stuff couldn't hurt either. just a rough draft you can figure out what's best with your doc. taking drugs without putting in the work doesn't usually get you to your goals. no pain no gain (or loss lol).

 

[SuperOne]

No man, you've got some really bad advice here. T4 is the WORST thing to give somebody for hypothyroid problems as usually they dont convert to T3 properly, and more ends up converting to Reverse T3 which blocks your own T3 from working. T4 only meds also put a big stress on your adrenals. Armour thyroid is good unless you have high or low Cortisol, or low Ferritin as the T4 in Armour will just convert into Reverse T3.


Now i speak here from PERSONAL experience, my own blood work, being on Cortef ( bioidentical cortisol ), T3,ect.



Now first of all switch over to regular Cytomel as a lot of people have trouble with time released T3, it just doesnt work for some people due to compounding issues.


Second, if your on T3 and its having no effect then you most likely either have adrenal fatigue with low Cortisol, and/or low Ferritin, or the compound T3 is just plain not working.


Cortisol is needed to carry thyroid hormones from the blood into the cells, and with low Cortisol you can take all the thyroid in the world and it will just pool in the blood fooling you into thinking that you have good thyroid levels on a blood test yet none is making it into your cells. Good Ferritin levels are also needed for this and Hypothyroid will cause low Ferritin.


Also, low Cortisol causes high Estrogen and that too will bind with thyroid hormones.


When somebody has high OR low Cortisol, and low Ferritin, and they take any meds containing T4, it will convert into more Reverse T3 rather than T3, and when you have high Reverse T3 you need to take T3 only treatment for at least 8 weeks and have an average temperature of 98.6 daily, and a waking temp of 97.8 - 98.2



I would call up ZRT labs and order the Full Adrenal Stress Saliva Test, which tests Cortisol 4 times of the day and DHEA-S levels. This test is a MUST and you have to call to order its not on the website anymore for some reason but they do carry it i did it twice. I would also get your TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, Thyroid Antibodies, Estradiol, and Ferritin Tested.

ZRT - Contact Us



Please dont waste your time on these steroid/bodybuilding forums like i did, they are not the experts in thyroid/adrenals.


Do you have any symptoms? What are your daily average temperatures? Waking temps? To get your average temperatures for the day, you take your temps 3 hours after you wake up, then again in another 3 hours, then again in another 3 hours. Then you calculate your average. If your average temps are the same roughly from day to day then your adrenals are supported, if they fluctuate from day to day then they are not supported, and if they are lower then 98.6 then you are hypothyroid. Here's the info regarding this.

Temperature Patterns of low adrenal and thyroid function


Go to this help group for Thyroid/Adrenal issues, Her name is Valerie and she is the BEST.


NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS : Natural Thyroid Hormone ADRENALS


I would try regular Cytomel, and if you are still getting no effect from this then i would follow my advice above and visit that yahoo help group.



I want to add to NOT touch ANY stimulants, caffeine,ect, as they are very hard on the adrenals and stress them out big time, and they are not good for your thyroid either.

 

[theroof]

fat loss issues aside, there is a phenomenon known as t3 resistance - characterized by elevated free thyroid levels and absence of hyper-T symptoms

do you have baseline t3/t4 tsh/trh bloodwork before you started dosing? current bloodwork?

CAUTION: your risk here is that you've been taking underdosed or fake t3 (i know you tried two, just saying). if you get the real deal - authentic cytomel as super ^ mentioned - and ingest a 180mcg daily dose without a ramp up, you put yourself at serious risk of a heart attack etc

 

[Nelson Montana]

No man, you've got some really bad advice here. T4 is the WORST thing to give somebody for hypothyroid problems as usually they dont convert to T3 properly, and more ends up converting to Reverse T3 which blocks your own T3 from working. T4 only meds also put a big stress on your adrenals. Armour thyroid is good unless you have high or low Cortisol, or low Ferritin as the T4 in Armour will just convert into Reverse T3.


Now i speak here from PERSONAL experience, my own blood work, being on Cortef ( bioidentical cortisol ), T3,ect.



Now first of all switch over to regular Cytomel as a lot of people have trouble with time released T3, it just doesnt work for some people due to compounding issues.


Second, if your on T3 and its having no effect then you most likely either have adrenal fatigue with low Cortisol, and/or low Ferritin, or the compound T3 is just plain not working.


Cortisol is needed to carry thyroid hormones from the blood into the cells, and with low Cortisol you can take all the thyroid in the world and it will just pool in the blood fooling you into thinking that you have good thyroid levels on a blood test yet none is making it into your cells. Good Ferritin levels are also needed for this and Hypothyroid will cause low Ferritin.


Also, low Cortisol causes high Estrogen and that too will bind with thyroid hormones.


When somebody has high OR low Cortisol, and low Ferritin, and they take any meds containing T4, it will convert into more Reverse T3 rather than T3, and when you have high Reverse T3 you need to take T3 only treatment for at least 8 weeks and have an average temperature of 98.6 daily, and a waking temp of 97.8 - 98.2



I would call up ZRT labs and order the Full Adrenal Stress Saliva Test, which tests Cortisol 4 times of the day and DHEA-S levels. This test is a MUST and you have to call to order its not on the website anymore for some reason but they do carry it i did it twice. I would also get your TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, Thyroid Antibodies, Estradiol, and Ferritin Tested.

ZRT - Contact Us



Please dont waste your time on these steroid/bodybuilding forums like i did, they are not the experts in thyroid/adrenals.


Do you have any symptoms? What are your daily average temperatures? Waking temps? To get your average temperatures for the day, you take your temps 3 hours after you wake up, then again in another 3 hours, then again in another 3 hours. Then you calculate your average. If your average temps are the same roughly from day to day then your adrenals are supported, if they fluctuate from day to day then they are not supported, and if they are lower then 98.6 then you are hypothyroid. Here's the info regarding this.

Temperature Patterns of low adrenal and thyroid function


Go to this help group for Thyroid/Adrenal issues, Her name is Valerie and she is the BEST.


NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS : Natural Thyroid Hormone ADRENALS


I would try regular Cytomel, and if you are still getting no effect from this then i would follow my advice above and visit that yahoo help group.



I want to add to NOT touch ANY stimulants, caffeine,ect, as they are very hard on the adrenals and stress them out big time, and they are not good for your thyroid either.

I wasn't recommending T4, just making a point. I'm hypothyroid and use Armour.

You seem to be hell bent on proving me wrong and in the process establish yourself as some sort of authority.

No one should diagnose themselves with advice from a message board. But there's some info you may be able to get here that even your doctor may not know.

 

[SuperOne]

Im not hell bent on anything lol i couldnt give a crap about proving you wrong or anything to do with you, or establishing myself as an authority on an internet forum LOL. Do i get paid to do this? LOL what a ridiculous thing to say im trying to HELP people not push my products all day long. I HAVE something called a lot of PERSONAL experience and knowledge in this particular feild and access to incredible knowledge in this feild, and im giving him the straight goods on the subject, plain and simple. Im trying to save him the time and possibly his health by giving him the tests and info he needs to, to get to the bottom of this.


Whatever pickle is in your ass take it out.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Im not hell bent on anything lol i couldnt give a crap about proving you wrong or anything to do with you, or establishing myself as an authority on an internet forum LOL. Do i get paid to do this? LOL what a ridiculous thing to say im trying to HELP people not push my products all day long. I HAVE something called a lot of PERSONAL experience and knowledge in this particular feild and access to incredible knowledge in this feild, and im giving him the straight goods on the subject, plain and simple. Im trying to save him the time and possibly his health by giving him the tests and info he needs to, to get to the bottom of this.


Whatever pickle is in your ass take it out.

Sounds to me like you see yourself as a crusader of truth. As YOU see it, of course.

Step down sonny. This is a site where opinions are shared. I don;t appreaciate your attitude toward, me, the board, or the belief that you have , and I quote, "INCREDIBLE KNOWLEDGE." Keep it respectful or go spread your pearls of wisdom somewhere where they want to hear it.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Im not hell bent on anything lol i couldnt give a crap about proving you wrong or anything to do with you, or establishing myself as an authority on an internet forum LOL. Do i get paid to do this? LOL what a ridiculous thing to say im trying to HELP people not push my products all day long. I HAVE something called a lot of PERSONAL experience and knowledge in this particular feild and access to incredible knowledge in this feild, and im giving him the straight goods on the subject, plain and simple. Im trying to save him the time and possibly his health by giving him the tests and info he needs to, to get to the bottom of this.


Whatever pickle is in your ass take it out.

Sounds to me like you see yourself as a crusader of truth. As YOU see it, of course.

Step down sonny. This is a site where opinions are shared. I don't appreciate your attitude toward, me, the board, or the belief that you have , and I quote, "INCREDIBLE KNOWLEDGE." Keep it respectful or go spread your pearls of wisdom somewhere where they want to hear it.

 

[SuperOne]

Can be lots of things. T3 doesn;t make the tyroid work any more efficiently. It actually suppresses thyroid function. That's why T4 is usually prescribed for hypothyroidism. It provides the materials for the body to convert to T3. In a way, the thyroid is like the body's thermastat and it needs to get the proper signals to set it correctly. Giving it T3 breaks the thermostat and sets it in one place.

Check out ZIP from Protein Factory Inc. It hypes the thyroid without suppression.

And as far as this goes, just like most of all hormones, when you take one like Testosterone, you surpress your own function, same is true with the thyroid, but obviously you need to take a high enough dose to move past this surpression, where you end up with higher Free T3 levels then you had before, this is the whole point with hormone replacement, you need to take enough.


With the amount of T3 you are taking that is more than enough to push past the supression stage and your body temperatures should definetly be going up. Since they are not, i would look into other factors such as i posted.


Only idiot doctors and endocrinologists prescribe T4 only for hypothyroidism, which doesnt work in most cases and over time it definetly stops working in a lot of cases due to the huge adrenal stress it causes, then you start converting the T4 into Reverse T3 instead of T3 making you more Hypo and putting more of a beating on your adrenals untill they get fatigued and you need Cortef to treat them. Most people with thyroid problems have conversion problems as it is.



If you really want the raw materials for your thyroid, get your Zinc, Selenium, Chromium, Molybdenum Manganese, Magnesium and Copper levels checked, and do a 24 hour urine Iodine loading test. Iodine is extremely important for thyroid function and 125mg of kelp aint gonna do it lol. With Iodine though you have to be carefull as it can cause problems if you take too much, or if you have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis it can increase your thyroid antibodies and make you more Hypo. Some people just react badly to iodine. Also L-Tyrosine is good but you probabbly get enough if you use whey protein.


But for your thyroid to be working optimally you need your adrenals to be working optimally and vice versa, as when one is out of balance and not right, it negatively effects the other one.

 

[needtogetaas]

Im not hell bent on anything lol i couldnt give a crap about proving you wrong or anything to do with you, or establishing myself as an authority on an internet forum LOL. Do i get paid to do this? LOL what a ridiculous thing to say im trying to HELP people not push my products all day long. I HAVE something called a lot of PERSONAL experience and knowledge in this particular feild and access to incredible knowledge in this feild, and im giving him the straight goods on the subject, plain and simple. Im trying to save him the time and possibly his health by giving him the tests and info he needs to, to get to the bottom of this.


Whatever pickle is in your ass take it out.

Aaa bro, I liked the post you gave the guy. You were helping him and giving him some pretty good advice to. I like it.

However I don't like how you said (don't waist your time on sites like this).. Well looking at the advice you gave him I am thinking he did not waist his time coming here (and I thank you for that bro)... He came to out site and you offered him some damn good advice. I think that not only says something good about you but also our site. AM I RIGHT???


He came here and found some one who has researched the subject,has been done the road he is going down. Not at all a waist to come here and find there. At least not in my book.


Now nelson offered his advice and it looks like he did snap at you and of course I would expect you to snap back. Can I ask that we just all drop the snapping now though. I know we all mean well. Great post though bro. Please lets not bash on our site,our sponsors,mods or staff though. Lets get back to what I know this site does best. Help people.

Which I feel happened in this thread. Is that cool?

 

[SuperOne]

Hey bro, i didnt mean "site's like this" in a bad way, it came out wrong as do lots of things on the internet sometimes.


What i meant was that even though there is some great info on here about cycles, some hormones, nutrition,ect, when your looking for serious information about thyroid/adrenals, the steroid section of bodybuilding forums is "usually" not the place to look for this for the best advice, and i speak from personal experience on this one. You need to go to boards that are help/support groups that specifically deal with these issues as they can be VERY complicated and complex. I only wish i was given this info when my problems first started. It took me 18 months of daily research, dealing with bullshit doctors and endocrinologists around here to no avail, spending all kinds of money of shit that didnt work to help my situation, trying to put together the peices of the puzzle myself,ect, it was a nightmare.


So i was simply trying to help this dude out and save him a bunch of time following advice from people who dont specialize in the subject. And there's nothing wrong with that there are plenty of area's i dont specialize in either, but this one i happen to know a great deal about, and that yahoo link i posted, there is no better source of adrenals/thyroid info out there, that i can gaurantee you. Ive been seeing a TOP internet listed doctor in my area, who is GREAT, but even he doesnt know as much about thyroid/adrenals and have as much experience in these area's as the moderator of that help group, and i can tell you this as everything they said was totally accurate and i have lots of before/after bloodwork, temperature tests, blood pressure tests,ect, that came out exactly as i was told.



Everythings cool bro, as i said i was just trying to help out.

 

[needtogetaas]

Hey bro, i didnt mean "site's like this" in a bad way, it came out wrong as do lots of things on the internet sometimes.


What i meant was that even though there is some great info on here about cycles, some hormones, nutrition,ect, when your looking for serious information about thyroid/adrenals, the steroid section of bodybuilding forums is "usually" not the place to look for this for the best advice, and i speak from personal experience on this one. You need to go to boards that are help/support groups that specifically deal with these issues as they can be VERY complicated and complex. I only wish i was given this info when my problems first started. It took me 18 months of daily research, dealing with bullshit doctors and endocrinologists around here to no avail, spending all kinds of money of shit that didnt work to help my situation, trying to put together the peices of the puzzle myself,ect, it was a nightmare.


So i was simply trying to help this dude out and save him a bunch of time following advice from people who dont specialize in the subject. And there's nothing wrong with that there are plenty of area's i dont specialize in either, but this one i happen to know a great deal about, and that yahoo link i posted, there is no better source of adrenals/thyroid info out there, that i can gaurantee you. Ive been seeing a TOP internet listed doctor in my area, who is GREAT, but even he doesnt know as much about thyroid/adrenals and have as much experience in these area's as the moderator of that help group, and i can tell you this as everything they said was totally accurate and i have lots of before/after bloodwork, temperature tests, blood pressure tests,ect, that came out exactly as i was told.



Everythings cool bro, as i said i was just trying to help out.

And you did a good job bro. Thank you. Ef may not specialize but we helped this guy out Little bit of everything here at ef (small part in thanks to you bro).

 

[st8grad]

I'm not sure that low cortisol causes increased estrogen. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are storing calories because you aren't eating enough food. Plus if it is 2000k of crappy carbs, sugar, high sodium....

There is something beneficial in the actual conversion of T4 to T3, so you may want to consider talking with your DR about taking both. There is a reason your body converts it. Think about it.

 

[SuperOne]

In many cases low Cortisol does cause high Estrogen. I have before and after blood work to prove it and also the place where i got this information has seen hundreds of blood labs confirming the same thing.


Also, i keep hearing about the "beneficial" conversion of T4 to T3 but ive seen no actual evidence or anything for that matter on the subject. The only benefits i see is its covnersion to T3. It seems like T4 is merely a pro-hormone and only exists to possibly help regulate T3 and only produce from it as much T3 as your body "thinks" is enough.



I would love so see some evidence about what other benefits happen from the T4 to T3 conversion other than the benefits from the actual T3 produced from it.

 

[REFORMATA]

wow very interesting thread PROPS to all you fellas