Help with Upper Routine

[mcr]

I've been following a WSB style routine for most of this year. I have LOVED the results for lower and don't want to change that. However, upper needs a change. I lift raw, and as such don't feel that WSB is helping my upper body as much as I'd like. I recently tried heavily bastardizing WSB upper to look like this:

Upper 1 (Wednesday):
* Work up to 3rm on flat bench or incline bench (alternate weekly)
* Incline db press (pyramid 12, 8, 4)
* Close-Grip bench press with bands (pyramid 10, 8, 6)
* Barbell rows (5x5)
* Tricep pushdowns (2-3 sets of 10)
* 1-3 sets of whatever for biceps

Upper 2 (Sunday):
* Work up to 3rm on OHP (alternate between strict military and push press)
* Speed bench (9 sets of 3 with bands done for speed)
* Chins (3 sets of 8-10)
* Dips (3 sets of 8-12)
* Tricep pushdowns (2-3 sets of 10)
* 1-3 sets of whatever for biceps

I use about 2-3 mins rest between sets.

However I'm still not too happy with it. It just doesn't feel right like WSB for lower does. Also my arms are REALLY lagging behind the rest of me. My chest is 42in, my waist is 31in, but my arms are only at 15.5in. They look out of proportion. I do almost no bicep work so maybe that's a problem. I do quite a lot of tri work though.

Can anyone give some advice or some ideas for what to have in my upper routine? Some things to bear in mind:
* My goals are both strength and muscle mass. I'm not looking to heavily prioritise one over the other.
* I am happy with my lower program - and I do deads and core (abs) on lower day, so they don't need to be included in the upper routine.
* I am cutting right now - for lower body I am still gaining strength though. I intend to start a bulking cycle on test in about a month so want my upper routine working nicely for when I start. So the routine will be run on a calorie surplus with juice.
* I have 2 days a week to train upper (I do 2 lower sessions each week too and don't want to change that). I guess I could up to 5 sessions a week total though - but feel I may need more recovery than that.
* I am happy to try any upper routine - whether it's full upper twice a week, a push/pull split or whatever. Powerlifting or bodybuilding routines I am happy to try anything.
* I would like my arms to get bigger.
* Also interested to know opinions on whether I'm resting too long between sets (I find the weights REALLY suffer if I don't rest 2-3 mins).

ANY advice or links to your routines would be much appreciated. I am sort of plumb out of ideas here.

Thanks.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

You might consider doing a 5x5 system for the upper body. I'm getting better results from that than I did doing the ME/DE days.

 

[mcr]

Thanks Mike!

I was considering doing just that and I think I will now. Are you fitting the 5x5 into 2 days for upper, and if so how are you splitting it?

Also, have you done 5x5 while on cycle - if so, isn't the 5lbs weight increment each week too low for juicing - should I be upping it to 10lbs+/week if I'm able to increase by that much while on?

Thanks.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

I'm doing decline benches on one day and incline benches on another. For the rest of the upper body I do rowing, pulldowns, shrugs, tricep and bicep work. I've been doing higher reps on the accessory stuff, but you could try 5x5 on those as well. I like the volume with 5x5 - when I went for a max every week on different bench moves I didn't get enough reps in. Another combo could be bench and close-grip bench.

Don't neglect the upper back work - I used to.

I haven't done any cycles. I've been adding 5 lbs a week to both exercises. I've noticed more size gains doing this. I'm outgrowing my t-shirts now.

 

[mcr]

Thanks again Mike.

I have decided that I'm going to give this a try:

Upper 1 (Wednesday):
Flat BB Bench 5x5 (done powerlifting style)
Incline DB Bench 2x8-12
BB Rows 5x5
Dips 2x8-12
Tricep Pushdown 2x8-12
DB Curls 2x8-12

Upper 2 (Sunday):
Incline BB Bench 5x5
Flat DB Bench 2x8-12
Seated BB Military Press 5x5
Chins 2x8-12
CG Bench 2x8-12
DB Curls 2x8-12

So I'm hitting everything twice a week. I will be keeping Lower Body as ME/DE as I am having great results from that.

I plan on starting the 5x5 light and adding 2.5kg/week. With the 8-12 rep range I will keep the weight constant until I hit 2x12, at which point I will put the weight up the following week.

Should be interesting

 

[Illuminati]

if you decide to go back to doing the speed work for bench, you rest periods are way too long. rest intervals on DE bench should be 30-60 seconds. also, i would knock all other rest intervals down. i dont time mine, but they are somewheres in the 1-1.5minute rest.
are you still interested in gaining strength? i would go with CG bench as your 5x5 on your sundays that you have outlined in your last post. i would do this because you dont have much tri work in your routine and they play a big role in your bench.

 

[Illuminati]

also...you said you ran WSB for most of the year? did you run a strict WSB? i have been contemplating going to a strict WSB (i do my own modified version.) what kind of gains did you make on your lifts?

 

[mcr]

if you decide to go back to doing the speed work for bench, you rest periods are way too long. rest intervals on DE bench should be 30-60 seconds. also, i would knock all other rest intervals down. i dont time mine, but they are somewheres in the 1-1.5minute rest.
are you still interested in gaining strength? i would go with CG bench as your 5x5 on your sundays that you have outlined in your last post. i would do this because you dont have much tri work in your routine and they play a big role in your bench.

D'oh - sorry - my speed work rests are 45 seconds. I time them. I meant that I do 2-3 mins for rests between the non-speed sets but neglected to mention that. My bad.

Yes I'm still interested in gaining strength - and you're probably right about needing heavier weights and more sets for tris. I think I will tweak that, thanks.

 

[mcr]

also...you said you ran WSB for most of the year? did you run a strict WSB? i have been contemplating going to a strict WSB (i do my own modified version.) what kind of gains did you make on your lifts?

No it wasn't very strict. It started off strict, but I swapped things around as I went, because I found certain things were better for me. I have been cutting practically all year, so didn't expect much gains on my lifts. Now that my program is sound for lower and I'm happy with it, I've been using the same thing for about 2 months, in which both squat and dead have gone up 20kg. Before that I didn't have much in the way of strength gains (I was using a more strict WSB then), but I was cutting (from 20%+bf to now 10%bf and still cutting) - and at least I didn't lose any strength. Here is what I'm currently doing for lower:

ME Lower (Monday):
* 3RM Squat / 1RM Squat / 3RM Dead / 1RM Dead (alternate each week between those 4 - the last 2 months of doing this I have beat my PR every time).
* Good Mornings (6 pyramid sets with bands).
* Glute-Ham Raises (3 sets of 10 with bodyweight).
* Leg Press (4 pyramid sets)
* Weighted Ab Crunches (4 pyramid sets)

DE Lower (Friday):
* Speed Box Squats (9 sets of 2 at 50-60% with 45 secs rest using bands)
* Speed Deads (6 singles at 60% using bands doubled up)
* SLDL (3 sets - I vary the rep range here a lot)
* Front Squats (3 sets of 5)
* Calf Raises on the leg press machine (3 pyramid sets)
* Weighted Ab Crunches (4 pyramid sets)

As you can see it's loosely based on WSB, but with some fundamental differences:
* I deadlift a lot more than WSB.
* I work calves and quads.
* My ME exercise rotation is a little different to WSB.
* I do GMs EVERY week as assistance with bands (this has REALLY helped).

I focus mostly on blasting my weaknesses like strict WSB programs - which are currently my hams.

 

[Illuminati]

nice work in cutting your BF% in half. that's a lot of work. the reason i ask about your WSB experience is because i have been contemplating for a while as to whether i should go with a strict WSB routine. its hard for me because i have always been into BBing, and making the switch has been tough, but i have caught the strength bug...
i found that the SLDL have helped to strengthen my hams a lot. i like to go heavy with these(i recently hit 405 for a single with straps), but when ever i go over 315 for reps, i have to use straps because i cant hold onto the bar (i use a overhand grip, and when i get over 5 reps, it starts to slip.)
also the GHR where incrediable. the machine we had at my old gym, had a hook at the bottom, and i could attach a band to it. i loved doing these. but i moved, and had to switch gyms. and they dont have one.

 

[AEKDB]

MCR,

The one thing that jumps out is the lack of the Clean & Press. I would also add 1 arm snatches. CP 5x5 on Wednesday and 1 arm snatch on Sunday. The problem with 1arm snatches is that most gyms only have dumbells upto 125lbs. You will be doing this weight in no time, just keep increasing the reps.

 

[mcr]

nice work in cutting your BF% in half. that's a lot of work. the reason i ask about your WSB experience is because i have been contemplating for a while as to whether i should go with a strict WSB routine. its hard for me because i have always been into BBing, and making the switch has been tough, but i have caught the strength bug...
i found that the SLDL have helped to strengthen my hams a lot. i like to go heavy with these(i recently hit 405 for a single with straps), but when ever i go over 315 for reps, i have to use straps because i cant hold onto the bar (i use a overhand grip, and when i get over 5 reps, it starts to slip.)
also the GHR where incrediable. the machine we had at my old gym, had a hook at the bottom, and i could attach a band to it. i loved doing these. but i moved, and had to switch gyms. and they dont have one.

Thanks bro. It was/is a LOT of work, but WELL worth it

I started off WSB earlier this year and kicked it off very strict on how it's prescribed (mostly GMs for ME day, rarely deadlifting, blasting hams, not much quad work etc). For me, I found that with the changes I made (see my routine above), my progress moved along much faster. It was also more enjoyable for me. I do find that the core emphasis of WSB (blast your weaknesses) have proven REALLY well for me. I also found that I really like lower body workouts now (I didn't used to when I followed a BBing program).

Like you I am very much into bodybuilding. Actually I like both strength training and bodybuilding, and would eventually like to both compete in powerlifting and get some modelling work. So I do want to focus equally on both. I am a few months/years off both of those yet though I find that the WSB style program works really nicely for bodybuilding for me with the tweaks I've made.

I think you should give a strict WSB program a go. In fact, I think everyone should. I think it's designed so that you can tweak it how you like. And from what I gather, even Louie regularly tweaks what he has his guys do. I find it works great for BBing too - let's face it, heavy triples and lots of compound moves are BOUND to induce muscle growth.

That's some nice lifts on SLDLs bro. I pulled a 200kg (440lbs) single on Monday for regular deads, but my SLDLs are nowhere close to that - I find I struggle a little with form on them. For grip, you could try chalk instead of straps - that's what I use. I can actually lift more with chalk than with straps.

For GHRs, do you have a lat pulldown machine at your new gym? If so, you could kneel on the seat facing away, hook your calves under the part your quads normally rest on, and do the GHRs that way (if you see what I mean). That's what I'm doing currently and it feels GREAT!!

 

[mcr]

MCR,

The one thing that jumps out is the lack of the Clean & Press. I would also add 1 arm snatches. CP 5x5 on Wednesday and 1 arm snatch on Sunday. The problem with 1arm snatches is that most gyms only have dumbells upto 125lbs. You will be doing this weight in no time, just keep increasing the reps.

Thanks bro. I have been doing hang clean into push press up to a 3 rep max currently (was doing that on Upper 2 which focussed more on overhead work). I have sort of stalled in progress on that, which is why I was going to give it a break for a while. Also I was finding that cleaning the weight was the problem - so I was never really working my delts with that move.

I guess with those oly lifts I would need to learn better form. Do you have any links to sites that show form (preferably with a video) for 1 arm snatches? Because that's an exercise I've never done before.

Also, for clean and press 5x5, do you mean reset the weight on the floor between reps? Or do you clean (or hang clean) once and then press 5 times?

I was also sort of concerned that doing oly style lifts would mean that I'd be doing lifts that hit lower body quite hard on the upper days - which may not allow my lower body to recover fully.

If I do add the exercises you suggest, are there any exercises I've currently got that you think I should drop in favour of them? Or are you saying put them in as extra volume?

Thanks bro!!

 

[Illuminati]

Thanks bro. It was/is a LOT of work, but WELL worth it

I started off WSB earlier this year and kicked it off very strict on how it's prescribed (mostly GMs for ME day, rarely deadlifting, blasting hams, not much quad work etc). For me, I found that with the changes I made (see my routine above), my progress moved along much faster. It was also more enjoyable for me. I do find that the core emphasis of WSB (blast your weaknesses) have proven REALLY well for me. I also found that I really like lower body workouts now (I didn't used to when I followed a BBing program).

Like you I am very much into bodybuilding. Actually I like both strength training and bodybuilding, and would eventually like to both compete in powerlifting and get some modelling work. So I do want to focus equally on both. I am a few months/years off both of those yet though I find that the WSB style program works really nicely for bodybuilding for me with the tweaks I've made.

I think you should give a strict WSB program a go. In fact, I think everyone should. I think it's designed so that you can tweak it how you like. And from what I gather, even Louie regularly tweaks what he has his guys do. I find it works great for BBing too - let's face it, heavy triples and lots of compound moves are BOUND to induce muscle growth.

That's some nice lifts on SLDLs bro. I pulled a 200kg (440lbs) single on Monday for regular deads, but my SLDLs are nowhere close to that - I find I struggle a little with form on them. For grip, you could try chalk instead of straps - that's what I use. I can actually lift more with chalk than with straps.

For GHRs, do you have a lat pulldown machine at your new gym? If so, you could kneel on the seat facing away, hook your calves under the part your quads normally rest on, and do the GHRs that way (if you see what I mean). That's what I'm doing currently and it feels GREAT!!

do you use your dead lift grip for your SLDL? i use an overhand grip for the SLDL and an alternating grip for my deads. even with chalk, i can't hold of to the 315 for more than 5 reps with the overhand grip.

nice pull on the dead. 500 will be there soon. i hit 500 about a month ago. im going to max on deads this saturday. hopefully my lift has gone up since then.

i like your idea of the GHR's on the lat machine. ill have to give those a try wednesday (that is my DE leg day.)

did you ever use the bands on your DE bench days? also, one lift that i have found to help my bench the most (i was having problems with my lockout) is suspending the bar in the squat rack with the heavier bands (i have the thick green jump stretch, 75lbs of resistance each.) this is truly a great exercise for lockout. i was able to lock out 455 bar weight last week. my max (done 1.5 months ago) is 350. i plan on doing another bench max this week on thursday. it seems now that my sticking point on bench is the middle. yesterday after my speed work with the mini's, i decided to hit a couple sets triples working up to 90% (315lbs.) my first set was with 275x3, the guy spotting me told me the bar speed looked like my DE bench (DE bench i had 205 bar weight, with the mini's doubled over.) so i went to 315. the bar flew up to the middle, slowed for a second, and the i killed it to lock out (on the 3rd rep.) the middle seems to be my weekness. any suggestions? i was thinking board presses with 2 boards.

 

[AEKDB]

one arm snatch: http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/onearmbarbell.htm

I prefer a dumbell. The pictures show both a split(one leg in front of the other) and squat snatch. Again its a mater of preference.

For the 5x5, return the bar to the ground pause for a 1 count then the next rep.
Clean and press is two parts.

clean: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/Clean.html

press: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/PushPress.html

I do not believe that these will overtrain your lower body. If you can Dead 500, the first pull on a 175lb clean&press will be very easy and a 125lb 1arm snatch will lift of the ground even easier.

 

[mcr]

do you use your dead lift grip for your SLDL? i use an overhand grip for the SLDL and an alternating grip for my deads. even with chalk, i can't hold of to the 315 for more than 5 reps with the overhand grip.

nice pull on the dead. 500 will be there soon. i hit 500 about a month ago. im going to max on deads this saturday. hopefully my lift has gone up since then.

i like your idea of the GHR's on the lat machine. ill have to give those a try wednesday (that is my DE leg day.)

did you ever use the bands on your DE bench days? also, one lift that i have found to help my bench the most (i was having problems with my lockout) is suspending the bar in the squat rack with the heavier bands (i have the thick green jump stretch, 75lbs of resistance each.) this is truly a great exercise for lockout. i was able to lock out 455 bar weight last week. my max (done 1.5 months ago) is 350. i plan on doing another bench max this week on thursday. it seems now that my sticking point on bench is the middle. yesterday after my speed work with the mini's, i decided to hit a couple sets triples working up to 90% (315lbs.) my first set was with 275x3, the guy spotting me told me the bar speed looked like my DE bench (DE bench i had 205 bar weight, with the mini's doubled over.) so i went to 315. the bar flew up to the middle, slowed for a second, and the i killed it to lock out (on the 3rd rep.) the middle seems to be my weekness. any suggestions? i was thinking board presses with 2 boards.

Yes I use my regular dead grip for SLDLs too. How come you're using double overhand?

I'm looking forward to the day I get 500 on deads. I'm starting a Test Enan cycle in about 3-4 weeks time, so hopefully it will come then

While doing WSB for Upper I was using bands on DE bench day. I didn't find they helped as much as bands with squats. I think I'm pretty fast on bench anyway, but wasn't at squats, which could explain it. I also fail in the middle on bench like you. As I understand it, that's a pec weakness. I have been doing more incline work in the hope to solve that. Your idea of 2 board presses is very interesting too.

I gave the Upper 1 session a go with the 5x5 this morning. I found that the weights REALLY suffered and what I thought was going to be an easy 5x5 ended up 5,5,5,5,4. I then went onto incline DB press with a weight I normally manage 12 for and could only get 5 first set and 3 the second!! So the 5x5 bench work is taking a LOT more out of me than the "work up to 3RM" routine I was doing before. IMO that's a good thing though. It felt like I had to work a lot harder than normal. I suppose I'll adjust back into it. The rest of the workout went well. I think I'm liking 5x5 for upper so far. I didn't much like 2 sets of 8-12 as on each of those, the first set I was getting about twice the number of reps I was getting on the second - which to me indicates that doing a second set is a bit of a waste of time for me.

 

[mcr]

one arm snatch: http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/onearmbarbell.htm

I prefer a dumbell. The pictures show both a split(one leg in front of the other) and squat snatch. Again its a mater of preference.

For the 5x5, return the bar to the ground pause for a 1 count then the next rep.
Clean and press is two parts.

clean: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/Clean.html

press: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/PushPress.html

I do not believe that these will overtrain your lower body. If you can Dead 500, the first pull on a 175lb clean&press will be very easy and a 125lb 1arm snatch will lift of the ground even easier.

Thanks bro! Those are great links, thanks. I like the look of both of those exercises, and with some experimentation should be able to squeeze them into my upper sessions effectively