Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Anyone know of any other place that has info besides the HST page. That page isn't very clear on HST and gear. I'm planning after my 4 weeks of 5's to take 3-4 days off and then just do 2 days of 15's then 6 day's o 10's then 12 days of 5's. I'm wondering if their are any bro's who have done HST while using gear and what they did???
Gear and HST
- Thread starter halfaclue
- Start date
wnt2bBeast
New member
i know dick about hst but what exactly is ur question with gear?
halfaclue said:
It seems a bit late to trouble-shoot your steroid cycles, but bear with me
Var bridge? This is a concept I'm not familiar with. I'd think that a "bridge" is pointless since the doses are low enough that you're not gaining but still enough to keep you suppressed.
Can you explain me the rationale?
I'll help you with the routine later, promise
wnt2bBeast
New member
i somewhat agree with you on bridging however 4 weeks is not enough time to recover from a 10 week cycle..but the var will help retain gains as his diet changes to a cutter for the second 10 week cutting cycle..casualbb said:It seems a bit late to trouble-shoot your steroid cycles, but bear with me
Var bridge? This is a concept I'm not familiar with. I'd think that a "bridge" is pointless since the doses are low enough that you're not gaining but still enough to keep you suppressed.
Can you explain me the rationale?
I'll help you with the routine later, promise
if he had no date to step on stage then doing a bridge would make little sense id rather stay on for 20 weeks..then get inot running the proper pct..
I stole the idea from needsize. linking the cycles with var to maintain all my gains or as close as possible.
want2bbeast and casualb...I wondering how I change my HST cycles around to take advantage of being on gear. Here are my thoughts.
Only taking 3 days rest between HST cycles.
Going from 6 days (6 workouts= 6days) of 15's to 1 day of 15's and 1 day of 12's
Keep the 6 days of 10's
Keep the 6 days of 5's
then mix up every other workout doing the 5's and the other doing the negatives. Take 3 days rest and go back at it. There isn't much on the HST baord about using gear but basiclly they say you can elimnate the 15's and when the weights get really high to do 8 reps instead of 5 for saftey reasons but I am not there yet.
want2bbeast and casualb...I wondering how I change my HST cycles around to take advantage of being on gear. Here are my thoughts.
Only taking 3 days rest between HST cycles.
Going from 6 days (6 workouts= 6days) of 15's to 1 day of 15's and 1 day of 12's
Keep the 6 days of 10's
Keep the 6 days of 5's
then mix up every other workout doing the 5's and the other doing the negatives. Take 3 days rest and go back at it. There isn't much on the HST baord about using gear but basiclly they say you can elimnate the 15's and when the weights get really high to do 8 reps instead of 5 for saftey reasons but I am not there yet.
let's get your gear worked out before we think about the routine, because how you set it up depends on the length of cycle, length of time off, etc.
Here's what I'd ask,
How important is it to you to come off?
Because with a 10 week cycle, you'd need at minimum 4 weeks to recover and that's if you're not doing this strange bridging idea (which btw WILL inhibit you)
The way you have it set up, your body will think you're on for 38 weeks. You will not at any point in there recover to a noticeable degree. So the way I see it you have 2 options:
1) If your body thinks you're on steroids for 38 weeks anyway, fuck the bridge, just go all out. Stay on for 38 weeks and change compounds as necessary when you switch from bulking to cutting
2) If it is important to you to come off at some point (and this is a choice you need to make based on your physique goals, personal experience, and how comfortable you are with very very long cycles), then I would say just condense both 10-week bulkers into one 16-week bulker, and spend 12 weeks recovering for real. 3 months should be plenty time to get you back to normal before you launch into cutting.
Let me know what you decide
Here's what I'd ask,
How important is it to you to come off?
Because with a 10 week cycle, you'd need at minimum 4 weeks to recover and that's if you're not doing this strange bridging idea (which btw WILL inhibit you)
The way you have it set up, your body will think you're on for 38 weeks. You will not at any point in there recover to a noticeable degree. So the way I see it you have 2 options:
1) If your body thinks you're on steroids for 38 weeks anyway, fuck the bridge, just go all out. Stay on for 38 weeks and change compounds as necessary when you switch from bulking to cutting
2) If it is important to you to come off at some point (and this is a choice you need to make based on your physique goals, personal experience, and how comfortable you are with very very long cycles), then I would say just condense both 10-week bulkers into one 16-week bulker, and spend 12 weeks recovering for real. 3 months should be plenty time to get you back to normal before you launch into cutting.
Let me know what you decide
the thing with using the var bridge is even if your body thinks youve been on the whole time, 20-30mg of var has extremely minimal negative effects on the body, so you can heal from any damage you did with the heavy cycle. But I do believe you can recover most of your HPTA while using var, obviously not 100%, but enough to prevent any permanent damage
The thing is, any dosage that's enough to "keep" mass is a dosage enough to suppress... pretty much by definition
Like guys on HRT dosages of test as low as 75-100 mg/week still run HCG to keep ball size.
What I really have no idea about is the cumulative "damage" (you said) from being on cycle for a long time. What are you referring to, and will a var bridge reverse anything?
Like guys on HRT dosages of test as low as 75-100 mg/week still run HCG to keep ball size.
What I really have no idea about is the cumulative "damage" (you said) from being on cycle for a long time. What are you referring to, and will a var bridge reverse anything?
Also I am taking 200mg npp/ 300mg enthate e3d and 50 dbol ed. So I am not taking massive amounts of gear either and I do not plan on exceeding those dosages as this is a small increase from last year where I gained 20lbs of muscle. I'm looking more for info on the HST program in realtion to the gear so that i do not waste weeks of being on gear while not taking advantage and at the same time I do not want change the program so much that it is no longer "the program". I use to neglect leg day if I was ever going to skip a day and I never lifted 4-arms. from 2 weeks on HST doing the 15's without the gear even kicking in yet (less then 2 weeks on) my hamstrings and 4-arms have already gotten bigger and my 4-arms are noticable.
casualbb said:
20mg of var is enough to keep your size, but it does allow you to recover a fairly large amount of your HPTA, not 100% like I said before, but enough that you get your sex drive back and dont keep your HPTA suppressed for very long periods
By cumulative damage, I'm referring to things like an elevation in liver values, and the stress on your heart from the increased blood pressure from water retention, that sort of stuff. If you dont give your body a break from the heavy drugs that cause these things, it can lead to large problems later. But a low dose of var doesnt come with these sides, so it gives your body a much needed break
Hey guys, I'm going to suggest we move this to anabolic. go here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345793
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=345793
Okay so here's what's up.
HST on roids:
-You can do a whole lot more repeating weights and still have it be very effective.
So an 8-week HST cycle could very easily become a 12-week cycle if you repeat every workout from the 10's onwards.
You are correct about not going below 8 reps. Your strength will skyrocket, and the joints just aren't ready to deal with the new stress. Try not to exceed maximum weights from before the cycle.
It sounds like you're still not sure how the gear cycling is going to go, so here's some general advise:
-Any time you're dropping to doses, either for bridging or PCT, needs to coincide with the heaviest part of the HST cycle
The reason for this is that heavier weights will be a growth stimulus to help fight the muscle loss you might experience from lower doses.
I can give you more specific help later if you need it.
HST on roids:
-You can do a whole lot more repeating weights and still have it be very effective.
So an 8-week HST cycle could very easily become a 12-week cycle if you repeat every workout from the 10's onwards.
You are correct about not going below 8 reps. Your strength will skyrocket, and the joints just aren't ready to deal with the new stress. Try not to exceed maximum weights from before the cycle.
It sounds like you're still not sure how the gear cycling is going to go, so here's some general advise:
-Any time you're dropping to doses, either for bridging or PCT, needs to coincide with the heaviest part of the HST cycle
The reason for this is that heavier weights will be a growth stimulus to help fight the muscle loss you might experience from lower doses.
I can give you more specific help later if you need it.
casualbb said:
The gear stuff I have under control and I know what I am doing..my questions were related to HST and you answered them kind of. I read that info from the HST site and was just wondering if there was more elsewhere. That will work though. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
casualbb said:
Its all good. If you wouldn't mind please post it and let me know once you have so I can check for replies. Something you probbaly can help with..I have a lot of over lap..for example
Straight bar curls for 15's
65 70 75 80 85 90
Straight bar for 10's
75 80 85 90 95 100
4 of the days are repeats at less reps? Should I do 2 1/2lb increments?
Tom Treutlein
New member
No, too small of increments. Do this...
15's-----80,80,85,85,90,90
10's-----90,90,95,95,100,100
Doubling up is always good.
You'll probably be okay either way, honestly. You have a bit of overlap on your previous choice, so I'd say the doubling up is better. The general trend is still upwards, which is good, but dropping from 90 to 75 may put you behind the curve of RBE (the repeated bout effect) and thus give nothing in way of hypertrophy.
15's-----80,80,85,85,90,90
10's-----90,90,95,95,100,100
Doubling up is always good.
You'll probably be okay either way, honestly. You have a bit of overlap on your previous choice, so I'd say the doubling up is better. The general trend is still upwards, which is good, but dropping from 90 to 75 may put you behind the curve of RBE (the repeated bout effect) and thus give nothing in way of hypertrophy.
I knew the first time around would be the guinea pig tour anyway. I definitely think it is working as my 4-arms and traps are seeing some quality growth and I am only in the first week of 10's. I'm also doing 24 sets though and working off the extra boost from the gear.Tom Treutlein said:
tom... steroids counteract RBE. Essentially, steroids cause growth irrespective of muscle damage. So you can have training that normally wouldn't work suddenly become very effective.
Because of that, many of the tricks hst has to keep growth going for a natural trainee pretty much dont apply:
No need for zig-zag (increased work capacity)
No SD (rbe doesn't happen)
No need for consistent big weight increases (rbe doesn't happen)
If you're doing HST on gear basically everything except the frequency of the program doesn't matter. And with that frequency, the anabolic stimulus is enormous. People gain 10 pounds of muscle in 2 weeks on a mild prohormone cycle combined with hst. Even though gear makes poor training work, with effective training the results are pretty much limited by diet alone.
Since training is maximized the diet is the only limiting factor in how much body mass is put on, and that mass will overwhelmingly be muscle tissue.
For a heavy steroid + Hst user I'd recommend an insane calorie surplus, I wouldn't even balk at 2000 above maintainance.
Because of that, many of the tricks hst has to keep growth going for a natural trainee pretty much dont apply:
No need for zig-zag (increased work capacity)
No SD (rbe doesn't happen)
No need for consistent big weight increases (rbe doesn't happen)
If you're doing HST on gear basically everything except the frequency of the program doesn't matter. And with that frequency, the anabolic stimulus is enormous. People gain 10 pounds of muscle in 2 weeks on a mild prohormone cycle combined with hst. Even though gear makes poor training work, with effective training the results are pretty much limited by diet alone.
Since training is maximized the diet is the only limiting factor in how much body mass is put on, and that mass will overwhelmingly be muscle tissue.
For a heavy steroid + Hst user I'd recommend an insane calorie surplus, I wouldn't even balk at 2000 above maintainance.
So for a serious gear + hst cycle I'd recommend:
-keep 3x/week training, make the volume as high as you feel you can go. Take advantage of increased endurance.
-Skip 15's. Start with 10's.
-the 10's: repeat each workout once, giving you 4 weeks of 10s
-the 5's: By now you're much bigger and stronger to boot. It has you doing 5 reps... go for 10 if you can. It can't hurt.
-also, starting now repeat each workout twice. This means that you'll be doing the same weight for 1 week, then raising it. This gives you 6 weeks of 5's (at 10 reps)
Something to remember: be careful about pushing your strength. Remember how strong you were before starting the cycle, and do not greatly exceed those weights. Your connective tissue takes much longer to adapt than muscles, especially on cycle. It is imperative to not lift weights your tendons and ligaments cannot handle.
So what I've listed so far is 10 weeks of an effective program. I would not be surprised to see that after 10 weeks you're easily doing 10 reps with your previous 5RM.
At that point:
-keep raising the week once per week as long as you can, provided you don't go below 8 reps and you don't exceed your 1RM on anything.
For instance, if before you could only bicep curl 100 pounds once... don't do sets of ten with 120 pounds. That's begging for a torn tendon.
So you could stretch out the cycle for quite awhile. Maybe even 16 weeks, who knows. For 38 weeks, though... I feel weird telling you to just keep repeating the same weights... but as long as it works, then hey. If at some point you actually do plateau (and if you do try eating more), then maybe consider taking 1-week off and restarting at higher starting weights.
Not a lot of people go all out with hst and gear, so your personal experience and input is important in figuring out how to tweak the program the right way. Definitely post up with your progress.
Is that helpful?
-keep 3x/week training, make the volume as high as you feel you can go. Take advantage of increased endurance.
-Skip 15's. Start with 10's.
-the 10's: repeat each workout once, giving you 4 weeks of 10s
-the 5's: By now you're much bigger and stronger to boot. It has you doing 5 reps... go for 10 if you can. It can't hurt.
-also, starting now repeat each workout twice. This means that you'll be doing the same weight for 1 week, then raising it. This gives you 6 weeks of 5's (at 10 reps)
Something to remember: be careful about pushing your strength. Remember how strong you were before starting the cycle, and do not greatly exceed those weights. Your connective tissue takes much longer to adapt than muscles, especially on cycle. It is imperative to not lift weights your tendons and ligaments cannot handle.
So what I've listed so far is 10 weeks of an effective program. I would not be surprised to see that after 10 weeks you're easily doing 10 reps with your previous 5RM.
At that point:
-keep raising the week once per week as long as you can, provided you don't go below 8 reps and you don't exceed your 1RM on anything.
For instance, if before you could only bicep curl 100 pounds once... don't do sets of ten with 120 pounds. That's begging for a torn tendon.
So you could stretch out the cycle for quite awhile. Maybe even 16 weeks, who knows. For 38 weeks, though... I feel weird telling you to just keep repeating the same weights... but as long as it works, then hey. If at some point you actually do plateau (and if you do try eating more), then maybe consider taking 1-week off and restarting at higher starting weights.
Not a lot of people go all out with hst and gear, so your personal experience and input is important in figuring out how to tweak the program the right way. Definitely post up with your progress.
Is that helpful?
oh and by the way... I was reading your cycle...
200mg npp/ 300mg enthate e3d and 50 dbol ed
few questions...
What's npp?
That pretty much puts you at 1400 mg of stuff per week. Seems like a lot, especially for 38 weeks. Have you used these kinds of dosages before? Are you big enough that such high dosages are necessary?
to be honest it kind of scares me to see you at high doses for so long, especially when it was based on my own advice. I really think you should consider taking some time off somewhere in there. What are your goals, gain as much mass as possible?
200mg npp/ 300mg enthate e3d and 50 dbol ed
few questions...
What's npp?
That pretty much puts you at 1400 mg of stuff per week. Seems like a lot, especially for 38 weeks. Have you used these kinds of dosages before? Are you big enough that such high dosages are necessary?
to be honest it kind of scares me to see you at high doses for so long, especially when it was based on my own advice. I really think you should consider taking some time off somewhere in there. What are your goals, gain as much mass as possible?
wnt2bBeast
New member
nandrolone phenylpropionate..faster acting deca
casualbb said:
I'm currently 6' 260lbs around 15%BF. I've done over 10 cycles and this isn't the most i've taken but close. Last year my 18 week cycle started with suspension100mg ed) enthate (750mg wk) and d-bol(50mg ed), after the 6 weeks It was enthate (750mg wk) and EQ (600mg wk) and the last 6 weeks was Tren(75mg ed)/prop (100mg ed) and winny 50mg ed.
casualbb said:
You are the man. Very helpful..K to you. I'm hoping to get my pictures uploaded so you can see what a tub of lard I am right now and hopefully make me look that much better when I am done. I'm going to increase my calorie intake even more because I think I am only around 3700 right now. I'm going to shoot for 8 reps where I would do the 5's...I want to have the increased weight from the 10 reps weeks but also not kill my tendons. The hardest thing to except with HST is not lifting to failure and rarely being sore yet getting bigger. I'm 3 weeks into it and my old lifting partner thinks my 4-arms and traps are noticable bigger already. I love it so far.
here's what one of our few aas guys said from the HST board:
If you're doing AAS cycles of 8-12 weeks, you might as well do an extended HST cycle. This entails 2-3 workouts at the same loads. Longer AAS cycles (16 weeks+), you should split it up into several 8 week cycles IMO. You actually don't need SD on steroids (at least not longer than 9 days), but periods of rest is almost a necessity both for injury prevention and for the psychological aspect (getting bored or burned out).
Zig-zag isn't necessary, but doesn't seem to detract from results either, so for neural recovery I think it's a good idea. I would still use the 5% increment sizes - even on AAS you need microtrauma for optimal growth.
If you're doing AAS cycles of 8-12 weeks, you might as well do an extended HST cycle. This entails 2-3 workouts at the same loads. Longer AAS cycles (16 weeks+), you should split it up into several 8 week cycles IMO. You actually don't need SD on steroids (at least not longer than 9 days), but periods of rest is almost a necessity both for injury prevention and for the psychological aspect (getting bored or burned out).
Zig-zag isn't necessary, but doesn't seem to detract from results either, so for neural recovery I think it's a good idea. I would still use the 5% increment sizes - even on AAS you need microtrauma for optimal growth.
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