For Open Minded Thinkers Only

[Lumberg]

Serious studies have to show if any difference between tested group and control group is STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT, there are complicated mathematical equations to process the data collected from the study and then tell if the results can mean anything.
Different methodologys presents different degrees of evidence, case reports are very low, non controlled , non randomized, low number of subjects, wrongful assumptions, lack of methodology, multiple variable contamination, all can lead one to discredit a reference study as being worth of consideration when analysing a situation.
In the example given, the simple majority of a group over the other is not statistically significant, and even if it was, you should ask how many variables between the 2 groups would have an impact on the result, like age, school background, etc...
Try to become familiar with the most respectable publications in each area , because those are more selective in publishing articles and it will be more difficult to find junk science.

Rio, you are a smart guy I know, but calculating the t statistic for a study like the one Nelson mentioned does not involve "complicated mathematical equations." Well, maybe to someone who hasn't studied statistics.

Most studies do calculate a t-statistic for a given p and the p given the data. Usually the threshold is 5%. Meaning, assume that the results lead the study creators to reject the nuill hypothesis, there is at most a 5% chance that they incorrectly rejected the null hypothesis. Of course there are alpha and beta errors.

I honestly don't think you can make rational examinatin of studies without a good understanding of statistics. ANd the peopl eho write the studeis have very strong backgrounds in stats.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

good point about studies. an interesting study i read, done by UK scientists, about monkeys caught my attention. they put some computers with a roomfull of monkeys. at first, the monkeys were destroying the computers. then, they were urinating and deficating on them. finally, they started to press down on a button on the keyboard and they noticed that a letter appeard on the screen. they then repetitively pressed the button. the conclusion of the study? the monkeys cant spell because they dont know english. true story

 

[DaddyX]

way to long to read

 

[Lumberg]

BTW I agree with the original post.

 

[Rio 2001]

Rio, you are a smart guy I know, but calculating the t statistic for a study like the one Nelson mentioned does not involve "complicated mathematical equations." Well, maybe to someone who hasn't studied statistics.

Most studies do calculate a t-statistic for a given p and the p given the data. Usually the threshold is 5%. Meaning, assume that the results lead the study creators to reject the nuill hypothesis, there is at most a 5% chance that they incorrectly rejected the null hypothesis. Of course there are alpha and beta errors.

I honestly don't think you can make rational examinatin of studies without a good understanding of statistics. ANd the peopl eho write the studeis have very strong backgrounds in stats.

You´re right, the statistics are complicated for me, altough in Nelson´s example maybe even I could do it.
I hate math, LOL.
I think the most difficult part of writing a study is to eliminate all variables and keep it controlled.Usually you have to try to prove a simple point, the more you try to add to your objective, ,the less ae your chances to be able to do it with proper maner and without contamination.
I agree it would be better to have a strong background in stats, but at least where I practice ( MD) we are not required to know much, you write a protocol and submit it first to statistic department that would check if your "n" is acceptable, what tests will be required , how would you like to display the data, etc...(Most MDs suck at math)Then you´ll have a complete protocol that will be evaluated by an internal board to make sugestions, correct errors, evaluate objective, methods, etc...Then it goes to the ethics board to have a go ...
After it´s "ready" .,you choose wheter you want to send it to a journal, congress, etc...and wait to see if it will be accepted.Many times it comes back( usually more than once) to be submited to sugested modifications required to acceptance.
We follow a rigid protocol here and we are usually complaining about so many poor controlled, junk studies we see published and presented.
The real thing is veeery hard to produce.

 

[Lestat]

I go to bodybuilding boards to see some studies, but the REAL value is this.

I say "Hey, what side effects do you see from usage of Deca?"

Then 30 people chime in... at least 10 of them are people that have actually used it and describe the effects..

Those real world experiences from other people who are similar to me in way (and disimilar in other ways) are what I find of real value on body building boards.

Not any one of two individuals that think they know everything about anything and can pull up some obscure study to back up every little point they have.

You see many guys on this board that are afraid to just say "I'm not sure" or "I don't have experience with that" because they think they are the shit and know everything that could possibly be asked.

For me, I chime in with my personal experience whenever I can.. I try to stay away from repeating things I have seen over and over and over.. but I must admit its tough not to do that.. you read something so many times you think its right and start to believe it.. you start to think you may even be knowledable on it. But guess what, you're not.

So lets keep the sharing of information alive, and not let a few people stifle that for everyone.

 

[Juice Authority]

I go to bodybuilding boards to see some studies, but the REAL value is this.

I say "Hey, what side effects do you see from usage of Deca?"

Then 30 people chime in... at least 10 of them are people that have actually used it and describe the effects..

Those real world experiences from other people who are similar to me in way (and disimilar in other ways) are what I find of real value on body building boards.

Not any one of two individuals that think they know everything about anything and can pull up some obscure study to back up every little point they have.

You see many guys on this board that are afraid to just say "I'm not sure" or "I don't have experience with that" because they think they are the shit and know everything that could possibly be asked.

For me, I chime in with my personal experience whenever I can.. I try to stay away from repeating things I have seen over and over and over.. but I must admit its tough not to do that.. you read something so many times you think its right and start to believe it.. you start to think you may even be knowledable on it. But guess what, you're not.

So lets keep the sharing of information alive, and not let a few people stifle that for everyone.

Good points.

 

[kidkoala]

another great post by NELSON!!!

 

[jboldman]

experimental design and peer reviewed studies are the backbone of modern day science. If studies are looked at with a critical eye, much usefull information can be gathered. To just disregard them because one does not have the time or inclination is a sure path to misinformation and the dark ages. I have always advocated using critical thinking when reading studies as well as when listening to so called gurus. As ronald reagan so often said:
"trust but verify!"

jb

 

[Wrongun]

Good post IMHO

I have always maintained that the subject regarding AAS is two fold.

1) Chemical / Biological theory
2) User experience.

What works on one user may not work on another so you do need to get a combination of the two and both may contradic for certain users

Wrongun!