dual factor pracitcal applications

[science]

Hi there,

I am new to this site and this is my first post-so hello to all.

I am no newb to trainining and in the game for about 10 years.
My progress always stalled because of not proper programing.
The first book (and i have tons of them including brawn,supertraining the dr.darden series,waterbury.Pavel´s stuff and so on) which really gives good explenations is practical proramming by rippetoe-you sure know the stuff.
Well however my linear progression has run dry-so i am on the way with the dual factor stuff.
I read madcows 2 info about it,the text in practical programming,kelly baggets article,matt reynolds etc.

The theory is clear with fitness and fatigue-after some time fatigue masks fintess so you have to deload to let the fatigue fade and see the gains.
Well ok,my question is regarding following:

1.Do you always have to ramp up the loads when starting a loading phase with a lighter weight?
Means the 5x5 by madcow starts with bout 80%of your 5x5RPM so you have records in week 4 and 5-then taper and peak.
BUT at Matt reynolds stuff you always train at a 4x10RPM or similar schemes and deload every 3 weeks-why you ramp up the weight in one example but not in the other?

2.WHEN do I see the improved gains?
Lets say I train with my 4x10RPM for 3 weeks after proper deload.
Ok 3 Weeks or 2 weeks I was able to increase my weight,reps whatever.
In the 4th week I notice that I get weaker by decreased performance (fatigue) (lets say I came from 4x10RPM to 4x13 in 3 weeks-in the 4th week I fall dow to 4x11)
so I deload.

Do I see gains IF:

-I drop the volume from 4x10 to f.ex.4x4 and increase the weight and peak.( that will be the 5x5 to 3x3 case-powerlifting version of dual factor)

-I deload with 4x4 minus 10%of the used weight for 2 or 3 weeks.return then to my previous record 4x13 and be able to set new PR´s for some sessions.(Bodybuilding version of dual factor sharp loads and deloads.)

-I deload with 4x4 minus 10% for 2 weeks and choose a NEW paramter like 6x6(for variation) and will also be able to set records. (bodybuilding version plus variation to keep body guessing)

I know the questions are quite specific-but it will really help me out to get an answer,because in no post or text I found related information regarding this problem putting the theory in practice those 2 different ways!

Science
--------------------------------
Sweat is when barbells cry...

 

[science]

no answers out there????

 

[Bonkme2]

Doesn't anybody just lift heavy weights anymore?

 

[u418936]

I'll give it a shot. I'm familiar with the dual factor 5x5.

To answer the first question, you ramp up for two reasons. One, you'll be starting the program after a one- to two-week rest period, so you have to ramp up just to get back to where you were before you deloaded. Two, volume is important, but it's impossible for most people to train for four weeks straight at or near their 5RMs. For me, the last two weeks are pretty brutal.

To answer the second question, you'll probably see gains in the final weeks of the program. If you feel good but aren't stronger, you didn't push yourself hard enough in the first four weeks. If you feel completely beat up but aren't stronger, you pushed yourself too hard in the first four weeks. After you run the program a couple of times, you'll figure out what you need to do.

In the first phase, 4x10s are probably fine, but I wouldn't do 6x6s, 5x5s, or 4x4s in the second phase, because the volume is too high and the intensity is too low. IMO, 3x3s or 1x1s work best.

 

[science]

Dear u41...

Thank you for your time and answer.

Perhaps I have stated my question not clear enough.

I have seen 2 WAYS of implementing the dual factor theory.

One was the madcow2 desing with 5x5 and 3x3 taper.

The second i have seen (madcow also have a similar programm on his site) is more BB related.
In the BB version you always train at your RPM be it 4x10RPM whatever.This is done for some weeks.Then you deload with fe.ex.2x10 or 4x5 but you DON´t ramp up the weights in this time.You simple deload for long as needed and then it seems you return to your old paramter (like 4x10) and continue to get stronger.I want to aks if somebody has experiences with that and why ypu ramp the weights up in the one version but not the other.

I am training for 10 years know as posted. My strength levels are not great as mentioned.In rippetoes book according to the lifts i fall in the inermediate section (a bit above it).

So for selection-do you consider the bill starr version or the madcow version more useful for me?
The last programm i progressed really good was AOW by chad waterbury 2 years ago-it was based on weekly progression.after 3 months my lifts went up about 22 pounds but then it was over.(although i included delaods)
So I don´t know if weekly progression has run dry for myself-although my lifts are not that strong for my bodyweight.
thoughts?
thanks again bro.

 

[science]

PS:

The change of paramters was related to the BB version to prevent a stale-for variation.

So in short:

4x10RPM for some weeks untill I overreach
DElaod as long as needed to catch up (cut volume in half so 4x5 minus 10% weight of the cylce used-NO increase in weights.steady delaod)
5x6RPM for some weeks untill i don´t progress anymore and ovverreach
deload as long as needed (half volume:5x3 minus 10% of the used weight from the 5x6 circle)

got me?

 

[u418936]

I think I already covered the ramping vs non-ramping. The gist of it was that if you're an advanced lifter, you won't be able to train at PR-level sets across for four weeks without killing yourself.

The BB version you mentioned looks fine, but I still think the volume's too high in the second phase.

If you're not sure whether you're advanced, you're probably not advanced. Also, you said that you're an intermediate by Rippetoe's standards, which are pretty conservative IMO. If I were you, I'd try the intermediate 5x5. There's no point messing around with dual factor programs when you might have the ability to get stronger every week.

 

[fortunatesun]

I have seen 2 WAYS of implementing the dual factor theory.

One was the madcow2 desing with 5x5 and 3x3 taper.

The second i have seen (madcow also have a similar programm on his site) is more BB related.

You've answered your own question as much as the question can be answered. Which is more useful depends on your goal.

With 5x5 ramping is used to optimize neural efficency for strength increase.

A bodybuilder is more interested in stimulating as muscle fiber as possible. Though ramping ( I suppose pyramiding is the more commonly applied term) is
used it's not a necessity.

The area where scientific theory falls short in answering our questions is that every individual is different. These programs can only provide guidelines. You have to decide what it is you want to accomplish and then select the appropriate method. Then comes the important part: giving yourself realistic feedback on what you'e doing tweaking the program to make it right for your individual needs. With 10 yrs. experience I don't think you'll have a problem.

I'm not exactly sure where you're heading, but one answer for you may be to do seperate cycles. For example, first do a program based on Madcow's recommmended set-up where your goal will be to get as strong as possible. Then, to counteract the onset of CNS fatigue and acclimation, change to a hypertrophy phase for an equal amout of time. These cycles can be a short as 10-12 weeks or as long as 3 months, the second choice being more common if you're not preparing for competition or moving very heavy weights. You can also add a 3rd, or deloading phase, usefull immediately after a competiton season or if you need to do some rehabilitation.

I hope I've added to the discussion. I'm not up on the finer points of 5x5 though I have a grasp of the concepts involved.

 

[science]

Dear fortunatesun,

Thank you very much for your time and advice.
I really appreciate your effort.
i will shoot for the inermediate 5x5.

The only thing is left for me-is in my eyes the different logic of the dual factor version.
I don´t know if you are still interested in discussing this theme-but i like to talk about theories and diskuss them-so if you want i give it one more shot:
The origin conclusion of the df theory in ripps book is,that you don´t really set Prs in the volume phase
The sense is to overreach-so get weaker to have THEN a rebound effekt in the lower volume phase.

The other applications-like the BB programm and also madcows stuff-also uses the delaod or intensification phase-but you actually set records-also in the volume phase.
So you don´t overreach.

Sure you can do it like you want-the theory only states the relation of fitness and fatigue-what you do with it is your shit.

This is where i headed cause on one programm you use more the rebound effect.
On the other one you simple delaod to let the fatigue fade away.
This is why I had the above idea of the BB variation programm-to make a balance between fatigue and recovery (deload) and also to include variation for the long term.
So hammering with a parameter till fatigue overwhelmes (fatigue) let recover (delaod) and have increased performance after it.Then hammer again etc.
That was my general idea.

 

[fortunatesun]

Agreed it's an intersting subject and can seem more confusing than it probably is.

I think that Repttoe's conclusion is accurate. I used to wonder how the Eastern European volume programs could be so effective. They'll go 3-4 times a week, sometimes more on a lift. As you said, they don't approach maximal weight but they do a lot of lifts. It's not until I did some of them that I understood the logic.

Volume programs work through conditioning yourself to become stronger. The total amount of weight moved is more but is less neurally and physically taxing. So the trade-off from the CNS stimulation acheived by doing a max set is you're creating a physical environment conducive to growth and preparing you for that eventuality. Once you've built the foundation you can then move on to a peaking cycle of 10-16 weeks designed to build up to that big competition max.

The 5x5 program in which you try to set a new maximum every few weeks is also effective. The reason is for the very same thing that the volume programs ultimately rely on: Progressive Overload. Simply put, you have to lift more to get stronger.

Individuality aside, I think a key difference in approach between the 2 concepts is what your goals are. If you're a competition lifter, it might not be very wise to have to max out every few weeks and then expect a huge showing those few days you actually need it. On the other hand, if you're a gym lifter like so many of us,or if strength training is just one component of a sports conditioning program, there's no reason 5x5 can't work as well or better.

In my own case, I like the volume stuff. I feel it makes me more well rounded physically and better taps into my potential. On the other hand, there's those times (like these last few weeks) where I just want to put it up and tell myself I can do better in a couple weeks. I'll ride this out and then build myself back up again.