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SSAlexSS
Guest
Hello all.
Does muscle memory exist, or is it a myth?
Does muscle memory exist, or is it a myth?
i am not 100% sure that it exists. but i do know used to be like a 240 pound fatass. i could lift so much weight iwth my legs. i lost all my weight got super weak due to bad way of dieting. well i got into the gym and all my leg and back lifts go up like crazy. so i think my muscles remember how they used to get hit everyday when i tried to walk around. its that or i am just getting lucky. but i lean more towards yes due to this fact.
MsBeverlyHills
New member
"muscle Memory"-- depends on how long youve been training before your break & how long you take off--
fatty-- cool avatar
fatty-- cool avatar
J
jeremys
Guest
sure, look at kevin levrone. he trains for the olympia what, like 3 months out of the year? personally not my bag
Of course it exists. I trained hard for 5 years and then took 2 years off. When I started back up I was only slightly ahead of where I had been when I first started training. But I gained all of the size and strength back in 9 months (probably gained 90% of it back in the first 6 months). So yes, if you trained for several years and then take an extended layoff, the gains will come back FAR quicker the second time around.
cccp
New member
And actually I was wondering the same thing, here's why:
theoretically, if you do a cycle, you get bigger and stronger, and your muscles are supposed to remember these good ole days, when you juiced. So, after the cycle,, when you get small again, why don't your muscles remember their former size, and don't get to that condition really fast again?
theoretically, if you do a cycle, you get bigger and stronger, and your muscles are supposed to remember these good ole days, when you juiced. So, after the cycle,, when you get small again, why don't your muscles remember their former size, and don't get to that condition really fast again?
Jxaxsxe530
New member
sure does. took me 4, 5 years to get to where i am now. then i take a few months off, lose pretty much everything, then i get back into the gym and 2, 3 weeks later i'm back in top shape. and probably better.
CCCP said:
Your body produces around 70-100 mg (for a healthy 20ish male) of test a week naturally. Your body simply cannot make enough test to hold +25lbs. Imagine, your shooting 1000mg of test a week, 10x the amount your body produces naturally. This is part of the reason post cycle clomid/nolva is important. Your natural T production is all but shut down on these cycles, and when you come off, you need to restart your natural T levels as fast as you can. Thus why people who don't do anything post cycle typically lose more of their gains than people who do followup with clomid/nolva therapy.
This next part is my belief, which some people may or may not agree with. This is provided that training and diet is constant, as well as good. Some people can retain more of their gains than others with one cycle. I believe those that tend to retain nearly all of their gains are people still under or at their genetic potential. Those that lose alot are already over their genetic potential. They lose alot of their gains because the body always tries to go back to where it's most comfortable and efficient.
For example, 5'5 185 - and being asian (which are typically a lighter build), I think I would be around my genetic potential. I could maybe pack on another 10lbs if I wanted. So say I was 195 and did a cycle that put me at 220. I could theoritically hold that weight if I consumed enough food, but I would probably end up with something like 30% BF. If I ate what I regularly did, or maybe a little more, I would drop down to around 195 again. I think the only way I could ever reach 220, if I wanted to, was to do cycles every 6 months or so. Of course, my body probably isn't the most efficient (or healthy) right now - it seems to work best at around 155-160.
The Red Dragon
New member
I think it has to do with the amount of nuclei that are created in the muscle. The more nuclei there are the more DNA transcription can take place at once which results in faster protein synthesis.
This is a wild guess
.
I believe muscle memory exists though.
This is a wild guess
.I believe muscle memory exists though.
I'm not sure how it works, but I believe that it does.
In high school and college I worked out like a mad man and got up to 260 lbs, had a 600 deadlift, ect. I got this way by forcing myself to eat 8,000 calories per day.
I then took about 3-4 years off (2 years where I only casually worked out and 2 years after that where I did no weight training) and ate maybe 2,500 calories per day. I weighed about 205 lbs. I then decided to get back into training. I did a few (like 3 training sessions) and then decided to check my deadlift--a little over 500 lbs. Within 3 months I was back up to 225 and deadlifting 635. Within 8 months I was back up to 260. This was not the result of anabolics, ect.; just my body remembering where it was.
For the last 2 years, I have fluctuated from about 235 and 260, and on occassion have starved myself down to 220 to make weight for contests. I can tell that if I want to get quality weight over 260 (the point where I was in college) it will have to be a conscious effort where I eat more than I want to eat like I did back in college.
In high school and college I worked out like a mad man and got up to 260 lbs, had a 600 deadlift, ect. I got this way by forcing myself to eat 8,000 calories per day.
I then took about 3-4 years off (2 years where I only casually worked out and 2 years after that where I did no weight training) and ate maybe 2,500 calories per day. I weighed about 205 lbs. I then decided to get back into training. I did a few (like 3 training sessions) and then decided to check my deadlift--a little over 500 lbs. Within 3 months I was back up to 225 and deadlifting 635. Within 8 months I was back up to 260. This was not the result of anabolics, ect.; just my body remembering where it was.
For the last 2 years, I have fluctuated from about 235 and 260, and on occassion have starved myself down to 220 to make weight for contests. I can tell that if I want to get quality weight over 260 (the point where I was in college) it will have to be a conscious effort where I eat more than I want to eat like I did back in college.
SlavikHavik
New member
It dosent exist physiologically... thats a proven fact.
however it exists psychologically
1) Youve already been there, easier to bust through mental barriers
2) You know how to train, and what works well for you. A person can spend years fucking around in the gym before they find out what works
3) Steroids and better cycles have some effect on this as well.
Ill site a few studies if necessary
however it exists psychologically
1) Youve already been there, easier to bust through mental barriers
2) You know how to train, and what works well for you. A person can spend years fucking around in the gym before they find out what works
3) Steroids and better cycles have some effect on this as well.
Ill site a few studies if necessary
bigstve12
New member
SlavikHavik said:
i was waiting for someone to get the right answer. Memory exists one place in the human body..thats the brain. As for people taking time off and then gaining it all back, i dont think that has really been explained. Maybe it has to do with metabolism and things of that sort
I competed in bobybuilding and powerlifting from 85' - 91' then stopped completley. I lost a hell of a lot of size.....265# down to 230# ......3" off arms.......7" off chest....etc. When I started back lifting again in 2002' I gained it all back in 6-8 months and now I'm 295# - 310# and still gaining. ??????
SlavikHavik said:
Please site the studies. I'd be interested to see what they have to say. I don't think anyone is suggesting that muscles have memory. However, I do think that over time training and eating a lot changes your body's set point in some way. I can now eat a moderate amount and maintain my bodyweight.
I completely disagree that there is no physiological aspect to this concept. I wasn't even training hard and got back to close to my 600 lb deadlift. I believe that if some other 205 lb guy with my same genetics, but without my prior training, came into the gym and trained exactly as I did, they wouldn't even be close to those numbers. But I'm always interested in being proved wrong.
Mike_Rojas
New member
I've built and lost the same strength so many times over the years that I can say there is something to it.
JohnRobHolmes
Well-known member
i believe in muscle memory, but i know its not actually in the muscles. the neural pathways that control the muscle are where the memory is. why is my left arm bigger, but my right arm is stronger? because i have better neural coordination with my right hand, and thus a better "muscle memory".
i know it exists because i can hop on a bike and within a couple of weeks i can bunnyhop 3 feet again. it just takes some time for my muscles to get back into shape. the memory is in my mind and my nerve pathways.
i know it exists because i can hop on a bike and within a couple of weeks i can bunnyhop 3 feet again. it just takes some time for my muscles to get back into shape. the memory is in my mind and my nerve pathways.
The Red Dragon
New member
Hope this helps the discussion. Something I pulled from medline.
Title Myosin heavy chain IIX overshoot in human skeletal muscle.
Author Andersen, JL; Aagaard, P
Affiliation Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Department of Molecular Muscle Biology, Rigshospitalet Section 9312, Juliane Mariesvej 20, First Floor, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. [email protected]
Source Muscle & nerve, 2000 Jul, 23(7):1095-104
Abstract The distribution of myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoforms, fiber type composition, and fiber size of the vastus lateralis muscle were analyzed by sodium dodecylsulfate polymerase gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE), ATPase histochemistry, and immunocytochemistry in a group of adult sedentary men before and after 3 months of heavy-load resistance training and, subsequently, after 3 months of detraining. Following the period of resistance training, MHC IIX content decreased from 9.3 +/- 2.1% to 2.0 +/- 0.8% (P < 0.01), with a corresponding increase in MHC IIA (42.4 +/- 3.9% vs. 49.6 +/- 4.0% [P < 0.05]). Following detraining the amount of MHC IIX reached values that were higher than before and after resistance training (17.2 +/- 3.2% [P < 0.01]). Changes in fiber type composition resembled the changes observed in MHC isoform content. Significant hypertrophy was observed for the type II fibers after resistance training. Maximal isometric quadriceps strength increased after resistance training, but returned to pretraining levels after detraining. The present results suggest that heavy-load resistance training decreases the amount of MHC IIX while reciprocally increasing MHC IIA content. Furthermore, detraining following heavy-load resistance training seems to evoke an overshoot in the amount of MHC IIX to values markedly higher than those observed prior to resistance training. (Copyright 2000 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)
Language English
Publication Year 2000
Publication Type Clinical Trial; Journal Article
Title Myosin heavy chain IIX overshoot in human skeletal muscle.
Author Andersen, JL; Aagaard, P
Affiliation Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Department of Molecular Muscle Biology, Rigshospitalet Section 9312, Juliane Mariesvej 20, First Floor, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. [email protected]
Source Muscle & nerve, 2000 Jul, 23(7):1095-104
Abstract The distribution of myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoforms, fiber type composition, and fiber size of the vastus lateralis muscle were analyzed by sodium dodecylsulfate polymerase gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE), ATPase histochemistry, and immunocytochemistry in a group of adult sedentary men before and after 3 months of heavy-load resistance training and, subsequently, after 3 months of detraining. Following the period of resistance training, MHC IIX content decreased from 9.3 +/- 2.1% to 2.0 +/- 0.8% (P < 0.01), with a corresponding increase in MHC IIA (42.4 +/- 3.9% vs. 49.6 +/- 4.0% [P < 0.05]). Following detraining the amount of MHC IIX reached values that were higher than before and after resistance training (17.2 +/- 3.2% [P < 0.01]). Changes in fiber type composition resembled the changes observed in MHC isoform content. Significant hypertrophy was observed for the type II fibers after resistance training. Maximal isometric quadriceps strength increased after resistance training, but returned to pretraining levels after detraining. The present results suggest that heavy-load resistance training decreases the amount of MHC IIX while reciprocally increasing MHC IIA content. Furthermore, detraining following heavy-load resistance training seems to evoke an overshoot in the amount of MHC IIX to values markedly higher than those observed prior to resistance training. (Copyright 2000 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)
Language English
Publication Year 2000
Publication Type Clinical Trial; Journal Article
The longest layoff Ive taken is around 2 months, doing very little, and I got it back in 6 months. The recovery isnt quick for me at all, but its much faster then it would be if I started back in that condition. Not sure what exactly is the cause.
I took a 7 year layoff, trained 6 months then took another 6 months off, now I'm back in the gym since July. In July I couldn't leg press 3 plates per side for 10 reps. Now I'm doing 4x10 with 7 plates per side AFTER squatting and they're not absolutely balls out sets. I could probably get 8 plates for 6-8 reps but I expect to be doing 10-11 plates by July.
I probably squat 315 max now whereas I was hitting 450 before my layoff. I expect that to be 500+ by Christmas.
Shakarov style, baby.....no belt, no wraps, no spotter.
I probably squat 315 max now whereas I was hitting 450 before my layoff. I expect that to be 500+ by Christmas.
Shakarov style, baby.....no belt, no wraps, no spotter.
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SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
In order to understand the answer to the question, we must first look at a the mechanisms/fascillitating factors by which muscular contration and hypertrophe occur
Nerve and blood supply:
The normal activity of a skeletal muscle is absolutely dependent on nerves and its rich blood supply. In general, each muscle is served by one nerve, an artery and one or more veins, all of which enter or exit near the central part of the muscle and branch profusely. Each skeletal muscle fibre is supplied with a nerve ending that controls its activity. Contracting muscle fibres use huge amounts of energy, which requires a more or less continuous delivery of oxygen and nutrients by way of arteries. Muscle cells also give off large amounts of metabolic wastes that must be removed through veins if contraction is to remain efficient. Muscle capillaries, the smallest of the blood vessels, are long and winding, a feature that accommodates the changes in muscle length
Increased muscle bulk largely reflects increases in the size of individual muscle fibers (particularly the fast glycotic variety) rather than an increased number of muscle fibers. However, some of the increased muscle size may result from longtitudinal splitting or tearing of the enlarged fibres and subsequent growth of these “split” cells, or conversely it may arise from the proliferation and fusion of satellite cells. Vigorously stressed muscle fibers contain more mitochondrion, form more myofilaments and myofibrils and more glycogen. The amount of connective tissue between the cells also increases. Collectively these changes promote significant increases in muscle strength and size.
It is my belief, that despite atrophe in the size of the muscles following a layoff, that many of the aforementioned systems/mechanisms still function/exist well above that the pertaining to the individual, before any training was undertaken. In respect to the number of muscle fibres (although this is a contentious issue), the previously explained theory shows how this adaption is a permanent one. In respect to nerve impulses, strength is defined by the number of nerves that one can stimulate, and the sequebtial order in which they are stimulated in order to complete a task. A pattern of recruitment has to been learned. Just like any memory, it is stored in the brain. With the correct stimulus, it can be quickly recalled/more efficiently deciphered after a period of non use.
Even at rest, muscles receive weak intermittent stimuli from the nervous system, thus the recruitment pattern is enforced even when not training. So powerful is the power of the mind, that even thinking about specific movements reinforces neuromuscular patterns, stimulating the c.n.s. and causing small sequential muscular contractions relative to the movement rehersed in the mind.
Mucle proteins in the muscle are cannibalized by the body, as they are used for the production of energy. The result is that fibrous tissue is replaced by connective tissue (atrophe).
However, the muscle retains a greater amount of nuclei than average, thus this combined with a more efficient oxygen supply ( aided by an improved network of capillaries) would suggest that protein synthesis occurs at a rate above that of the untrained, coupled with a more efficient supply (in comparison to the untrained) of nutrients to the muscles.
In conclusion, muscular gains following a layoff period can be contrasted to the experience of the endurance athlete following a period of inactivity or injury. Previous activity dictates that certain bodily systems still function highly efficiently and as such regaining fitness can be achieved in a much quicker time than if a previous history of training did not exist.
Nerve and blood supply:
The normal activity of a skeletal muscle is absolutely dependent on nerves and its rich blood supply. In general, each muscle is served by one nerve, an artery and one or more veins, all of which enter or exit near the central part of the muscle and branch profusely. Each skeletal muscle fibre is supplied with a nerve ending that controls its activity. Contracting muscle fibres use huge amounts of energy, which requires a more or less continuous delivery of oxygen and nutrients by way of arteries. Muscle cells also give off large amounts of metabolic wastes that must be removed through veins if contraction is to remain efficient. Muscle capillaries, the smallest of the blood vessels, are long and winding, a feature that accommodates the changes in muscle length
Increased muscle bulk largely reflects increases in the size of individual muscle fibers (particularly the fast glycotic variety) rather than an increased number of muscle fibers. However, some of the increased muscle size may result from longtitudinal splitting or tearing of the enlarged fibres and subsequent growth of these “split” cells, or conversely it may arise from the proliferation and fusion of satellite cells. Vigorously stressed muscle fibers contain more mitochondrion, form more myofilaments and myofibrils and more glycogen. The amount of connective tissue between the cells also increases. Collectively these changes promote significant increases in muscle strength and size.
It is my belief, that despite atrophe in the size of the muscles following a layoff, that many of the aforementioned systems/mechanisms still function/exist well above that the pertaining to the individual, before any training was undertaken. In respect to the number of muscle fibres (although this is a contentious issue), the previously explained theory shows how this adaption is a permanent one. In respect to nerve impulses, strength is defined by the number of nerves that one can stimulate, and the sequebtial order in which they are stimulated in order to complete a task. A pattern of recruitment has to been learned. Just like any memory, it is stored in the brain. With the correct stimulus, it can be quickly recalled/more efficiently deciphered after a period of non use.
Even at rest, muscles receive weak intermittent stimuli from the nervous system, thus the recruitment pattern is enforced even when not training. So powerful is the power of the mind, that even thinking about specific movements reinforces neuromuscular patterns, stimulating the c.n.s. and causing small sequential muscular contractions relative to the movement rehersed in the mind.
Mucle proteins in the muscle are cannibalized by the body, as they are used for the production of energy. The result is that fibrous tissue is replaced by connective tissue (atrophe).
However, the muscle retains a greater amount of nuclei than average, thus this combined with a more efficient oxygen supply ( aided by an improved network of capillaries) would suggest that protein synthesis occurs at a rate above that of the untrained, coupled with a more efficient supply (in comparison to the untrained) of nutrients to the muscles.
In conclusion, muscular gains following a layoff period can be contrasted to the experience of the endurance athlete following a period of inactivity or injury. Previous activity dictates that certain bodily systems still function highly efficiently and as such regaining fitness can be achieved in a much quicker time than if a previous history of training did not exist.
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Just Beginning
New member
Well, being as this is my first post, hopefully one of many to come, I thought I would throw abit of input into this discussion, from various sources across the net, I would like to add that the "Fascia" is the key to Muscle Memory, There are 2 types of Fascia, one is just below the skin surface that holds fat and water, the other one is the deep Fascia that surrounds the outer layer of the muscle, this fascia is very dense and strong, (think of it as a balloon).. when we first try blow up a new balloon its difficult, being as its never been "stretched" before... after we have blown up the balloon 10 or more times for example, the shape of the balloon changes, and it becomes easier to blow up, due to it being "stretched" over time...
By no means am I saying this is the be all and end all of building muscles, or even getting back to a "pre-size" that you was at before, but its common sense that if you have a "balloon" thats been stretched previously, then it will fill up faster, than one that hasn`t been "stretched"...
There is (as many of you will probably know) a few sites out there, that give instructions on how to "stretch" the Fascia while "cooling down" from a workout, to me personnally this makes great sense to "stretch" the fasica after a workout, as this allows the muscle fibre`s to have more room to repair and regenerate, hence making muscle size easier to build.. im not saying that just "stretching" alone will help increase your muscles to the size of houses... but it makes sense to me anyway, that if there is more room for the muscle to regen/repair then this "may" help with increasing size...
What I have posted here, may of already been covered in this thread, however not being to techy minded with all these fancy words, I put it as simple as I could, just incase anyone else out there is like me...
Hope my first post was ok... Just my little input... LOL
By no means am I saying this is the be all and end all of building muscles, or even getting back to a "pre-size" that you was at before, but its common sense that if you have a "balloon" thats been stretched previously, then it will fill up faster, than one that hasn`t been "stretched"...
There is (as many of you will probably know) a few sites out there, that give instructions on how to "stretch" the Fascia while "cooling down" from a workout, to me personnally this makes great sense to "stretch" the fasica after a workout, as this allows the muscle fibre`s to have more room to repair and regenerate, hence making muscle size easier to build.. im not saying that just "stretching" alone will help increase your muscles to the size of houses... but it makes sense to me anyway, that if there is more room for the muscle to regen/repair then this "may" help with increasing size...
What I have posted here, may of already been covered in this thread, however not being to techy minded with all these fancy words, I put it as simple as I could, just incase anyone else out there is like me...
Hope my first post was ok... Just my little input... LOL
I personally think once you've started training & kept with a constant routine & healthy diet, that it doesn't matter how long a break is.
I will admit in my case due to the hyper thyroid I've suffered from since 2000 I lost about 25-30lbs of lean mass shrinking from 225lbs to a weak 200lbs who couldn't even bench his own weight.
Once everything became normal my strength & body weight went back up, but I haven't been able to get back to 225lbs or the power that I had.
I'm about a quarter of the way there.
But what's funny is I'm much stronger with certain exercises now than I was before & I'm much happier with the way I look now.
I will admit in my case due to the hyper thyroid I've suffered from since 2000 I lost about 25-30lbs of lean mass shrinking from 225lbs to a weak 200lbs who couldn't even bench his own weight.
Once everything became normal my strength & body weight went back up, but I haven't been able to get back to 225lbs or the power that I had.
I'm about a quarter of the way there.
But what's funny is I'm much stronger with certain exercises now than I was before & I'm much happier with the way I look now.
flyin j
New member
MsBeverlyHills said:"muscle Memory"-- depends on how long youve been training before your break & how long you take off--
fatty-- cool avatar
Couldnt agree more, and it definatly exists I can be living proof of that its saved me twice and the feeling of coming back is GREAT its like arnold said in pumping iron "Its like im coming all da time" (well at least thats the swing of what hes trying to say anyway, you get the point
)"Life is ours we live it our way"
METALLICA
'Nothing else matters'
M
Mr_MAX
Guest
if it did not exist.... many including me would of given up long ago....
took a very long time natural.. to get much size..... I lifte about 2 years...
gained about 20lbs... about 3 inches on my arms... i quite lifting for about..
6months... and was hardley eating... i went all the way back to my old size..
....kicked it back in... and it about 6 months i was all the way back.... and that is just my 1st little experience with it.... taken off few time since then.... size comes back fast... gotta love it...
took a very long time natural.. to get much size..... I lifte about 2 years...
gained about 20lbs... about 3 inches on my arms... i quite lifting for about..
6months... and was hardley eating... i went all the way back to my old size..
....kicked it back in... and it about 6 months i was all the way back.... and that is just my 1st little experience with it.... taken off few time since then.... size comes back fast... gotta love it...
stayfitbug
Banned
Quit an old but on going post. I recently wrote a post about this too. If i could vote i would, YES muscle memory exists
Shaun
Shaun
Chill Trojan
New member
i think it must exist
be it mind or muscles i dont know
my own experience tells me theres something to it
ive been back training for 5 months now after a 20 year layoff
yep 20 YEARS
im 40 and now look exactly the same bodywise as i did at my peak
my strength hasnt returned the same though thats gonna take more time and effort
p.s. if anyone knows how to make your face look the same as it did years ago ill let you have a free go on 'er indoors'
be it mind or muscles i dont know
my own experience tells me theres something to it
ive been back training for 5 months now after a 20 year layoff
yep 20 YEARS
im 40 and now look exactly the same bodywise as i did at my peak
my strength hasnt returned the same though thats gonna take more time and effort
p.s. if anyone knows how to make your face look the same as it did years ago ill let you have a free go on 'er indoors'
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