Cycle With Permanent Gains

[4leafclover]

Hi guys, new to the forum. just thought i'd burst my cherry with a simple one. Anyone got any good cycles were the gains might not be so great but long term. I keep going up and coming back down 200lbs now, 13%b/f. 5'8" I know PCT - post cycle therapy - is a major attribute in maintaining but i just thought i'd start with this. Nice to be here.

 

[Mac173]

Gains will depend on diet, training and PCT rather than what compound is used.

 

[4leafclover]

Diet is sooooo strict with me. I.m taking in 400 gram/pro now, bump that to 600 when on, yeah? carbs were at 600. i'm currently researching best pct at the mo, but i,ve a while yet to worry about that.

 

[Mac173]

Diet is sooooo strict with me. I.m taking in 400 gram/pro now, bump that to 600 when on, yeah? carbs were at 600. i'm currently researching best PCT - post cycle therapy - at the mo, but i,ve a while yet to worry about that.

That's good but what about total cals.

 

[ukkared]

I think if your diet is straight the whole part to keeping gains is pct. If you ask me that is probably the toughest part of the whole game

 

[Nelson Montana]

The more anabolic stuff produce the more solid gains. Much of what is considered "gains" from test is temporary( increased water, blood volume, vascularity, stregth) as long as the compound is in your system, whereas Primmo builds muscle, albiet slightly and slowly.

Also, not trying to gain too much and not getting too supressed is the best way to keep gains. That's why I like 6 week cycles.

For maintaining mass PC check out BIG BLAST from www.proteinfactory.com. The only product with a 100% approval rating.

 

[jvb20]

The more anabolic stuff produce the more solid gains. Much of what is considered "gains" from test is temporary( increased water, blood volume, vascularity, stregth) as long as the compound is in your system, whereas Primmo builds muscle, albiet slightly and slowly.

Also, not trying to gain too much and not getting too supressed is the best way to keep gains. That's why I like 6 week cycles.

For maintaining mass PC check out BIG BLAST from www.proteinfactory.com. The only product with a 100% approval rating.

so nelson you saying a good cycle to keep gains would be only primo for six weeks???

jvb20

 

[truckdaddy]

HGH will make new cells that i would assume are permanent.

 

[Nelson Montana]

so nelson you saying a good cycle to keep gains would be only Primobolan - methenolone - for six weeks???

jvb20

I think Primmo with a little androgen to kick it in , either test or dboll, for 6 weeks is the best stack for solid gains with little or no sides or supression.

 

[crazyivan]

^^ might try this one next cycle

 

[sshadoww]

I think Primmo with a little androgen to kick it in , either test or dboll, for 6 weeks is the best stack for solid gains with little or no sides or supression.

Nelson-

Thoughts on Test/Dbol/Var? I've read your prior posts in regards to test and keeping it at low doses, so I was thinking 250mg EW for 8-10 weeks? And starting with Dbol for a kicker for 3 weeks 25mg ed, and also Anavar weeks 1-5 20 mg ed. I know u preach Primo but I just don't have it, so I'm wondering about the combo I mentioned in those doses and timeframe.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson-

Thoughts on Test/Dianabol - methandrostenolone - /Anavar - oxandrolone - ? I've read your prior posts in regards to test and keeping it at low doses, so I was thinking 250mg EW for 8-10 weeks? And starting with Dbol for a kicker for 3 weeks 25mg ed, and also Anavar weeks 1-5 20 mg ed. I know u preach Primobolan - methenolone - but I just don't have it, so I'm wondering about the combo I mentioned in those doses and timeframe.

I know avar is often put in the same group as Primmo because they're both low androgen anabolics, but I really don't think they're in the same league. Using Dbol and avar together will be hard on the liver so I'd say keep it simple and use just test and avar for 8 weeks. It won't be the most dramatic gains but what you get should be solid and suppression should be minimal with a modest PC T.

 

[5x10]

over time, how much of the gains are actually keepable if youve worked out for many many years(reached your plateau)

i always thought that genetically, we could only get so big, then juice pushed up beyond that

so , on a roid only cycle(no hgh or IGf), and if you are a seasoned weight lifter, i think most of the gains will be lost over time due to the bodys genetic limitations

after my first cycle 5 yrs ago, i kept some strength and had to work hard for years to get a portion of that strength back
im interested in a year or two to see how much of this cycles gains i will keep

 

[Nelson Montana]

over time, how much of the gains are actually keepable if youve worked out for many many years(reached your plateau)

i always thought that genetically, we could only get so big, then juice pushed up beyond that

so , on a roid only cycle(no human growth hormone - somatropin - or IGf), and if you are a seasoned weight lifter, i think most of the gains will be lost over time due to the bodys genetic limitations

after my first cycle 5 yrs ago, i kept some strength and had to work hard for years to get a portion of that strength back
im interested in a year or two to see how much of this cycles gains i will keep

You're absolutely correct in that the body can only hold on to so much size, but I do think with proper usage, steroids can push you beyond that limit -- not 50 pounds beyond, but maybe 20 over the course of years. This is why I laugh when I hear guys saying they want to gain 30 pounds on their next cycle. It's a joke. They'll piss twice and lose 20 of them. And a month later, for all their efforts, they've gained 5 pounds. Might as well just gain 10 and keep the same 5!!!

 

[st8grad]

Diet is sooooo strict with me. I.m taking in 400 gram/pro now, bump that to 600 when on, yeah? carbs were at 600. i'm currently researching best PCT - post cycle therapy - at the mo, but i,ve a while yet to worry about that.

Carbs were at 600? I would venture to say that if you drop down to 400 grams of carbs post cycle you would lose a shit load of weight just from that. 600 is astronomical! How about 400 protein, 300 carbs, 200 fat? Or 600/300/200? I just can't imagine 600g of carbs per day.

 

[5x10]

You're absolutely correct in that the body can only hold on to so much size, but I do think with proper usage, steroids can push you beyond that limit -- not 50 pounds beyond, but maybe 20 over the course of years. This is why I laugh when I hear guys saying they want to gain 30 pounds on their next cycle. It's a joke. They'll piss twice and lose 20 of them. And a month later, for all their efforts, they've gained 5 pounds. Might as well just gain 10 and keep the same 5!!!

im glad im not the only one that thinks this way

thats why i get sick of hearing about how dbol only cycles are worthless
dbol is a strong roid that works well(probably my fav now)
but, i think you will lose your gains off of pretty much anyother roid just the same

dbol seems more dramatic because of the massive water retention

 

[boston789]

I think Primmo with a little androgen to kick it in , either test or dboll, for 6 weeks is the best stack for solid gains with little or no sides or supression.

Wouldnt you want to run primo for at least 10 weeks since its not a fast acting compound?

 

[sshadoww]

I know avar is often put in the same group as Primmo because they're both low androgen anabolics, but I really don't think they're in the same league. Using Dianabol - methandrostenolone - and avar together will be hard on the liver so I'd say keep it simple and use just test and avar for 8 weeks. It won't be the most dramatic gains but what you get should be solid and suppression should be minimal with a modest PC T.

OK, thanks- so no 3 week small dose Kick start w/Dbol?

 

[Nelson Montana]

OK, thanks- so no 3 week small dose Kick start w/Dianabol - methandrostenolone - ?

Not along with avar. Test and avar will kick in pretty quick.

boston: I see results from Primmo in a few days so I don't understand why some say it's a slow acting compound.

 

[sshadoww]

Not along with avar. Test and avar will kick in pretty quick.

boston: I see results from Primmo in a few days so I don't understand why some say it's a slow acting compound.

Thanks again Nelson. I started it already-just a couple of days now- so I'm guessing I should drop the Dbol and just continue with Test/Var. Any recommendations for dosage w/o the Dbol kickstart-up the Var and keep Test at 250?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thanks again Nelson. I started it already-just a couple of days now- so I'm guessing I should drop the Dianabol - methandrostenolone - and just continue with Test/Anavar - oxandrolone - . Any recommendations for dosage w/o the Dbol kickstart-up the Var and keep Test at 250?

I don't recommend using any oral over 50 mgs a day.

 

[sshadoww]

I don't recommend using any oral over 50 mgs a day.

Yeah- I got that- what I was asking is should I bump the Var from 20mg ED if I'm omitting the Dbol (and just doing it w/250mg EW of Test Cyp)?

Thanks again.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yeah- I got that- what I was asking is should I bump the Anavar - oxandrolone - from 20mg ED if I'm omitting the Dianabol - methandrostenolone - (and just doing it w/250mg EW of Test testosterone cypionate)?

Thanks again.

I see what you're saying. In the effort of making it a worthwhile cycle, I'll split the difference with you. How's 40 mgs of avar and 300 mgs of test sound? Just take something for the liver while on. This is good: http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=110&cat=0&page=1

 

[sshadoww]

I see what you're saying. In the effort of making it a worthwhile cycle, I'll split the difference with you. How's 40 mgs of avar and 300 mgs of test sound? Just take something for the liver while on. This is good: http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=110&cat=0&page=1

Thanks Nelson-

I'm taking AX Perfect Cycle during- I like the lipid boost with the orals. I also toss in some Hawthorne berry for BP, some Policosanol for Cholest, and some Taurine if I get back spikes, CQ10 for heart, and prostate supp.

For Pct I have Clomid Liquid (and some Nolva)...should I use it right away, and what dose do you recommend? Really appreciate the advice.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thanks Nelson-

I'm taking AX Perfect Cycle during- I like the lipid boost with the orals. I also toss in some Hawthorne berry for BP, some Policosanol for Cholest, and some Taurine if I get back spikes, CQ10 for heart, and prostate supp.

For PCT - post cycle therapy - I have Clomid Liquid (and some Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - )...should I use it right away, and what dose do you recommend? Really appreciate the advice.

Well, I hate clomid and nolva but if it works for you...

If you're super sensitive to estro, use a little dex.

Honestly, with that stack I seriously doubt you'll need any anti-e or PC T outside of some supps. The aforementioned "Post-Cycle" and Anthony's "MyogenX" should have you covered.

 

[sshadoww]

Well, I hate clomid and Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - but if it works for you...

If you're super sensitive to estro, use a little dex.

Honestly, with that stack I seriously doubt you'll need any anti-e or PC T outside of some supps. The aforementioned "Post-Cycle" and Anthony's "MyogenX" should have you covered.

Interesting...I had read that Clomid helped with the decreased lipid values that orals give. Anyway, I'll give it a shot- thanks again for the help.

 

[artificialaspirations]

what about primo ace? Isn't that fast acting primo?

 

[MichaelScott]

dosage of primo for the 6 weeks?

 

[Tweakle]

you'll need to run a 2600 week cycle to see permanent gains. Take all the the weak steroids and snake oil you want but won't nothing let you keep anything over your natural potential.

 

[Nelson Montana]

you'll need to run a 2600 week cycle to see permanent gains. Take all the the weak steroids and snake oil you want but won't nothing let you keep anything over your natural potential.

Huh?

 

[boston789]

Huh?

Yeah I dont know...

 

[silver_shadow]

nelson, i recall you advocating 4 weekers a few years ago. why the change in preference?

 

[Nelson Montana]

nelson, i recall you advocating 4 weekers a few years ago. why the change in preference?

4 weekers with a "taper" week. I still advocate that, but have come to accept it's simply not "sexy" enough for most people. Since supression increases dramatically after 6 weeks (right around when gains slow down) I think it's possible to push it to 6 with minimal sides. After that, it's a different appraoch -- not one based on fast recovery, keeping gains and maintaining natural T levels but one based on growing as much as possible WHILE ON.