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Curious about EFA's

it stars sAddam

it stars sAddam

New member
Well tomorrow is the big day I plan on starting bulking, and really getting the necessities worked into my diet. I was curious about the amount of EFA's to take daily. I have ANPB, flax, fish, and olive oils all readily available, I just dont know how much to consume daily. Any feedback is appreciated.
 
How many to take will be indicative of what your diet looks like. I am sure if you post what you are proposing, that would yield more responses.

Post up!

~SC~
 
6+g of Fish oil works wonders for keeping fat-gain low..however there are concerns about using it when bulking for various effects on some of the body's systems and making muscle gain difficult.
 
MrMakaveli said:
6+g of Fish oil works wonders for keeping fat-gain low..however there are concerns about using it when bulking for various effects on some of the body's systems and making muscle gain difficult.
Click to expand...

Can you be more specific, pls ?
 
Fish oil is a PPAR-Alpha antagonist which has been shown to be anti-anabolic (but good for fat-loss, which is why fish oil when dieting helps, increased beta-oxidation of fatty acids).

Give me a bit and I'll post up some sutdies.

Offhand, Fish oil can also raise PGE-2 synthesis (Through increased AA in cells) which isnt anabolic either. <--Partially retracting this statement. I've seen studies showing EPA can raise AA and fish oil can also lower it which is rather confusing me right now.
 
Last edited:
MrMakaveli said:
Fish oil is a PPAR-Alpha antagonist which has been shown to be anti-anabolic (but good for fat-loss, which is why fish oil when dieting helps, increased beta-oxidation of fatty acids).

Give me a bit and I'll post up some sutdies.

Offhand, Fish oil can also raise PGE-2 synthesis (Through increased AA in cells) which isnt anabolic either.
Click to expand...

Too bad

But what's wrong in fish oil ?
EPA/DHA ?
or some specific compounds that are not present in other omega 3s sources (like flax seed oil) ?
 
Anthrax said:
Too bad

But what's wrong in fish oil ?
EPA/DHA ?
or some specific compounds that are not present in other omega 3s sources (like flax seed oil) ?
Click to expand...

I'm going to attempt this but truthfully my knowledge on PPAR-Alpha and all related systems is just begining to form. So dont take anything I say as being horribly accurate at this point.


From what I can gather.

Lineolic Acid (Main constitute of flax) converts to EPA through enzyme reactions in very small amounts. EPA *may* be what results in PPAR-Alpha induced fat-loss explanxing why flax (while helping fat loss) does not do so in the same way as Fish oils.

Note: Inhibitory effect on muscle gains seems very dose dependant so play around with it. ~3 grams per day is also good.
 
MrMakaveli said:
Lineolic Acid (Main constitute of flax) converts to EPA through enzyme reactions in very small amounts. EPA *may* be what results in PPAR-Alpha induced fat-loss explanxing why flax (while helping fat loss) does not do so in the same way as Fish oils.
Click to expand...

On the other side there is something with flax being a slight uncoupler of
oxidative phosphorylation, though I have not found any study about it yet
 
Anthrax said:
On the other side there is something with flax being a slight uncoupler of
oxidative phosphorylation, though I have not found any study about it yet
Click to expand...

Exact thing I'm looking for a study for. Asked Mr. X about it and he posted 40 some odd studies but I havent had a chance to go through them all yet. Search under my name and you can find them.
 
havent been using it lately since i was bulking (only eat real food)... will start cutting in a few weeks... ill give you a heads up
 
No, olive oil is primarily monounsatured (n-9), with traces of n-6 and n-3 fats (with more n-6 than n-3).

My advice is to go with 4-6 grams of fish oil a day and 4 tbs of flax seed oil to provide your n-3 fats, although going alot higher on the flax can be beneficial depending on your individual diet and goals. Do not worry about adding n-6 fats to your diet. You are probably gettting more than enough already.
 
first off, how in the hell can you reccomend a dose of anything without knowing his diet, stats, routine, etc........cmon.
 
jkurz, because 4 tbs of flax seed oil contains a bit more n-3 fats than the body needs for optimal health for the average individual, and alot of studies on fish oil have show great benefits with 4-6 grams a day in various men and women. Of course you are right, without knowing more these are only general suggestions.
 
alright in that case
heres an example of todays meal plan
Im 5' 7" about 140lbs low bodyfat (thats me in my avatar)

Meal 1: 4 egg omelet with 2 slices cheese, 1/2 cup of oatmeal, 3 tblspns ANPB

Meal 2: PWO shake/44g whey

Meal 3: Tuna, cottage cheese, 1/2 cup oatmeal, yogurt

Meal 4: 4 tblspns ANPB, yogurt, bowl of bran flakes

Meal 5: some sort of meat, large salad w/ olive oil, 2 slices wheat bread, ANPB

Meal 6: Cottage cheese and pineapple
 
JKurz1 said:
first off, how in the hell can you reccomend a dose of anything without knowing his diet, stats, routine, etc........cmon.
Click to expand...


B/c certain fats just arent determined by bodyweight.
 
only 6g's?
I consume like 30-40g's of fish oil alone :o
plus flax(30-40g's also)+extra virgin olive oil+fats in eggs/cheese/meats!

Also fish oil is PPAR-alpha agonist, that would explain to a degree the fat loss of fish oil consumption. Bad is the case that through this agonism protein synthesis itself is hindered. Also EPA/DHA are essential to production of prostagladins increased number of wich degrades muscle cells. But I ain't worried about that - I'm a runner so the more PPAR-alpha and prostagladins I gots the better. Plus the joints feel great, and so does my eczema!
 
juve said:
only 6g's?
I consume like 30-40g's of fish oil alone :o
plus flax(30-40g's also)+extra virgin olive oil+fats in eggs/cheese/meats!

Also fish oil is PPAR-alpha agonist, that would explain to a degree the fat loss of fish oil consumption. Bad is the case that through this agonism protein synthesis itself is hindered. Also EPA/DHA are essential to production of prostagladins increased number of wich degrades muscle cells. But I ain't worried about that - I'm a runner so the more PPAR-alpha and prostagladins I gots the better. Plus the joints feel great!
Click to expand...


Seems as though dosing depends on body-type with fish oil. If your already fairly lean there is no point in high doses. Now if your cutting and historically chubby then yeah, 30-40 grams is good..although it should be fairly difficult to gain any fat at that dose..experiences?
 
I'm as lean as it comes, never been above 8%bodyfat, and still can attest to the efficacy of fish oil in my diet.
But, conversely, would you suggest any other source of fat - seems you're hinting a relatively lean person would yield better results from other type of fats? Why?
 
juve said:
I'm as lean as it comes, never been above 8%bodyfat, and still can attest to the efficacy of fish oil in my diet.
But, conversely, would you suggest any other source of fat - seems you're hinting a relatively lean person would yield better results from other type of fats? Why?
Click to expand...


Not suggesting that at all, just started looking into fish oil in detail and it seems like an amazing choice for everyone. Just from what I've read it seems like high doses would be better suited towards those who were fat (due to beta oxidation and leptin sensitivity effects) and inhibit lean gains in those already lean (i.e. like taking DNP when you already 6%..although I am in NO way comparing fish oil to dnp..just the first example that came to mind right now) Can I ask how you manage 30-40 grams? Assuming your using actual oil as opposed to caps right?
 
????
3tbsp of fish oil=42g's of..... fish oil, haha ;)
I get it at GNC - $9~ for 16oz bottle.
 
I thought prostaglandins played a part in causing inflammation....
 
:rolleyes:
No, they actually soothe inflammation :o
Also, MrMak mentioned that fish oils compete for phospholipdation at increased dosages. With what? By antogonizing AA(what's that)? and can it be alleviated by, say, SAMe?
 
juve said:
:rolleyes:
No, they actually soothe inflammation :o
Also, MrMak mentioned that fish oils compete for phospholipdation at increased dosages. With what? By antogonizing AA(what's that)? and can it be alleviated by, say, SAMe?
Click to expand...

Arachidonic-acid (used to synthesize P.G.'s)..give me a bit to find the study
 
juve said:
:rolleyes:
No, they actually soothe inflammation :o
Also, MrMak mentioned that fish oils compete for phospholipdation at increased dosages. With what? By antogonizing AA(what's that)? and can it be alleviated by, say, SAMe?
Click to expand...

But aspirin has been shown to inhibit prostaglandin synthesis which is why it reducies fever and inflammation, no ?
 
that's why aspirin is an alternative to steroidal anti-infl medical aids. prostagladin=steroidal, aspirin=non-steroidal, how exactly it alleviates pain I don't know - never was curious enough to inquire :dolphin:

MrMak: arachnidoic acid maybe? if there's anarchic acid in the body, that's damn cool - anarchy!!!!
 
juve said:
that's why aspirin is an alternative to steroidal anti-infl medical aids. prostagladin=steroidal, aspirin=non-steroidal, how exactly it alleviates pain I don't know - never was curious enough to inquire :dolphin:

MrMak: arachnidoic acid maybe? if there's anarchic acid in the body, that's damn cool - anarchy!!!!
Click to expand...

lol! yeah your right, I still need to sleep today, fucking school.
 
Allerg Immunol (Paris) (FRANCE) Oct 1987, 19 (8 Suppl) p12-3

The arachidonic acid substitution by an alternative fatty acid, substrate for the 5-lipoxygenase and the cyclo-oxygenase pathway constitutes a novel therapeutic approach or a complement for other therapeutics in the inflammation area. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), one of the fish oil components, is a substrate for both enzymes and an inhibitor for several enzymes of arachidonic acid cascade, in vitro and in vivo. The EPA-generated metabolites have less pro-inflammatory effects than those produced by arachidonic acid metabolism.
 
BodyByFinaplix said:
No, olive oil is primarily monounsatured (n-9), with traces of n-6 and n-3 fats (with more n-6 than n-3).

My advice is to go with 4-6 grams of fish oil a day and 4 tbs of flax seed oil to provide your n-3 fats, although going alot higher on the flax can be beneficial depending on your individual diet and goals. Do not worry about adding n-6 fats to your diet. You are probably gettting more than enough already.
Click to expand...


thats why im sticking to canola... its mostly omega-3's... and cheaper than both fish and flax... fish is more beneficial because of the EPA content
 
MrMakaveli said:
Allerg Immunol (Paris) (FRANCE) Oct 1987, 19 (8 Suppl) p12-3

The arachidonic acid substitution by an alternative fatty acid, substrate for the 5-lipoxygenase and the cyclo-oxygenase pathway constitutes a novel therapeutic approach or a complement for other therapeutics in the inflammation area. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), one of the fish oil components, is a substrate for both enzymes and an inhibitor for several enzymes of arachidonic acid cascade, in vitro and in vivo. The EPA-generated metabolites have less pro-inflammatory effects than those produced by arachidonic acid metabolism.
Click to expand...


This is where literature gets confusing. One study shows EPA alone can significantly increase AA levels while there are many that show that it can supress it as well. I think regardelss Fish oil is a great choice for fat intake.
 
MrMakaveli said:
This is where literature gets confusing. One study shows EPA alone can significantly increase AA levels while there are many that show that it can supress it as well. I think regardelss Fish oil is a great choice for fat intake.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking initially, that by suppressin arachnidoic acid fish oil actually stimulates anit-inflammatory and protein preserving processes as is pointed in the abstract you provided.


OT: Canola oil is primarily o-6's, very little o-3 :o
 
juve said:
????
3tbsp of fish oil=42g's of..... fish oil, haha ;)
I get it at GNC - $9~ for 16oz bottle.
Click to expand...

42 g's a day?

i hope you are using "natural" fish (i think they are alaskan)... the bred ones are known to have certain toxins and such (ie mercury...)
 
OK, I think I eventually got it :

PGE1 and PGE3 = anti-inflammatory prostaglandins
whereas Excess levels of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) can cause inflammation
 
Anthrax said:
OK, I think I eventually got it :

PGE1 and PGE3 = anti-inflammatory prostaglandins
whereas Excess levels of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) can cause inflammation
Click to expand...


Persactly :)

On a side not apparently leptin expression is also related to inflammation hence why leptin is lowered with the use of fish oils (although fat-loss also plays a role)
 
ProtienFiend said:
i hope you are using "natural" fish (i think they are alaskan)... the bred ones are known to have certain toxins and such (ie mercury...)
Click to expand...


I appreciate your concern for my health 'condition' :o
 
juve said:
OT: Canola oil is primarily o-6's, very little o-3 :o
Click to expand...

i disagree... it is actually VERY high in 3's

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T041300.asp#T041303

The two most important essential fatty acids are linolenic acid (also known as an omega 3 fatty acid) and linoleic acid (also known as an omega 6 fatty acid). The omega number describes where the important carbon atom is located on the fat molecule. If this atom is third from the end, the fatty acid is known as an omega 3 fatty acid (omega 3 is the last letter of the Greek alphabet and means "end"). If it's sixth from the end, it's known as an omega 6 fatty acid (vegetable oils, nuts, and seeds). Omega 3 fatty acids especially have a valuable role in reducing the risk of heart disease and building healthy brain cells. The standard American diet (SAD) is sadly deficient in omega 3s, found mainly in plant foods (especially canola oil and flax oil, soybeans, and walnuts) and seafood.
 
Wait, are we talking about unrefined canola oil that you paid a few extra $$$ for mail order, or are we talking about the filthy crap in the grocery store that is bleached, fried and sometimes hydrogenated to increase the shelf life? In any even canola oil does have n-3 fats, but it does have more n-6's than n-3's.
 
IMHO,

1] Fish oil
2] Flax seed oil
3] Hemp oil
4] Walnut oil
 
I've been chugging down Udo's 3-4 tbs. and Flax 3-4 tbs.
great while on CKD

I was not aware of fish oils fat burning qualities, i'm gonna have to try it.
 
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