Cuff work...better as a starter or finisher?

[mendo]

I'm looking at incorporating some external rotation movements into my delt routine. I've never had a shoulder injury and don't want one...

Would it be better to do them as a warmup...then hit the big lifts? Or is it better to do them at the end of a shoulder workout? Is there any benefit to adding them to a delt workout specifically...how about doing them on chest day instead?


Thanks.

 

[big4life]

I've been through two shoulder surgeries, none on my cuff, and my physical therapist wanted me to do mine at the end. I have seen people do it both ways, but so far it seems to be working for me to do them at the end.

 

[super_rice]

no, never do them at the start. i would never risk fatiguing such an important muscle group before heavy lifting. that's suicide

 

[mendo]

Thanks guys...

super_rice:
what about a very light cuff warmup before the lifts? Wouldn't that actually loosen up the rotators and help prevent injury if it wasn't enough to cause fatigue? Then the real cuff work could still be after.. What do you think?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

always at the beginning
you shouldnt be lifting with your joints you should be lifting with your muscles..the idea is to warm up the rotators and get blood flowing in the area..

since im in the minority here this is not my opinion but rather what i have taken from many benchers who bench 6-700 and higher..they may know a thing or two about rotators..

i do my cuff work at the beggining as im warming up on the bench..i have no problems benching 500

 

[KillahBee]

I have had an RC tear and always do mine at the beginning. I have heard arguements both ways and really do not have a finite answer. All I know is that there is a major noticeable difference for me when I do not do them before training.

Also, why not incorporate a little internal Rc training as well???

 

[Madcow2]

I'd tend to favor some warm-up style work before training. If the goal is to put in some real rotator training where you are going to fatigue it - I wouldn't push it hard and then swap over to heavy compound work. My feelings anyway although I am no rotator specific expert.

 

[mendo]

I have had an RC tear and always do mine at the beginning. I have heard arguements both ways and really do not have a finite answer. All I know is that there is a major noticeable difference for me when I do not do them before training.

Also, why not incorporate a little internal Rc training as well???

Nothing against working the internals, and I plan to. They aren't as neglected as my externals though.

 

[ChinkNasty]

I disagree with super rice...I always do them in the beginning..it's some baby weak cuff work, it's only gonna help and you can't honestly believe that it's going to 'sap your energy for heavy lifting...'

actually, I have found that some light cuff work before heavy benching has helped me loosen my shoulders up as opposed to tire them out...

 

[musketeer]

I say that it should be done outside the gym when you are not doing other exercises. Perhaps go though the mothions before training to warm them up.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I say that it should be done outside the gym when you are not doing other exercises. Perhaps go though the mothions before training to warm them up.

why outside of the gym?
i do think you can do cuff work as part of "extra" workouts but if your inot protecting your joints they should also be done before benching..

Ive even done inter/ext roations before squatting or goodmornings

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Do you guys use bands or freeweights for these?

 

[KillahBee]

Do you guys use bands or freeweights for these?

I have used both. Pre w/o I usually do some light l-fly's (internal and external) with like a 10 DB for 15-10 reps

 

[cwc73]

What is the difference in the internal/external rotator cuff?

 

[KillahBee]

What is the difference in the internal/external rotator cuff?

The RC is actually 4 muscles, so internal and external work helps to activate/hit all "sides".

 

[mendo]

What is the difference in the internal/external rotator cuff?

External rotation is the motion used for a backhand in tennis...internal rotation would be a forehand... Thats the example I always hear. There are 2 primary external rotators and 2 primary internals. How close the elbow is to waist determines which being isolated.

 

[cwc73]

I always bring the elbow to my waist and do the forehand and backhand motion. I also do a very slow, controlled, and straight overhead "baseball" throw. This is usually anywhere around 10 reps each with just one set.

 

[musketeer]

I say that it should be done outside the gym when you are not doing other exercises. Perhaps go though the mothions before training to warm them up.

Just to clarify, I don't think that you ahould tire outyour rotators before you bench or do other things that will require the rotators to stabalise the joint. Much better, I think, to train the rotators directly at a time when they will not also be receiving indirect stress.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

i agree with musketeer. having loose shoulders (suck!), i would never train rotators hard before lifting. if you have tight shoulders, then warming them up first would be good.

 

[Boss101]

The RC is actually 4 muscles, so internal and external work helps to activate/hit all "sides".

What exercises do you use to hit all 4 muscles?

 

[mendo]

Thank you for all the input guys.

OK... so warming up the cuff before working shoulders and chest has really helped a lot. All I can say is that medium intensity cuff work has made the joint feel much better during heavy lifting. I haven't tried working the rotators to true failure yet. I plan on either doing that at the end of a shoulder workout...or on a day when the cuff won't be needed. Haven't decided which is better. Since I haven't been working my cuff, I'm starting VERY light.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Do you guys use bands or freeweights for these?

no bands they cause unneeded soreness..
reading over this thread im not really sure you guys know what your doing when working rotators..


Musk- there is no way you will tire out your rotator..if your swinging anything heavier than a 5-10 lb dbell you ARE not working your rotators..im sorry your using your delts and THAT is why you may feel fatigued when benching..

you ugys aer BB'ing thats fine but look at what PL'ers and strognmen who bench in excess of 600lbs on a weekly basis do..those guys are using a 10-20 lb DB's for cuff work..

I had the same problems as some here..my joint was killing me..i started doing rotators every day with the 2lb dbells a few sets of 15 reps..especailly before benching..after my pain went away i cut it back to doing it only before my 2 bench days and now i have zero pain and im up to using an 8lb DB

 

[musketeer]

I don't feel fatigued when benching and my occasional RC workouts are well concieved. What I am trying to communicate is that whilst it may be fine to warm-up the rotators, I would not do a developmental workout for them at the same time as a workout that required their use in stabalising the shoulder joint. It would be like doing calves before squatting or a hard ab workout before deadlifting - you just would't do that because the smaller muscle becomes important in order to work the larger muscle. If you are about to bench press 600lbs, would you rather do it with warmed-up rotators or tired, worked out rotators? Save the multiple set and moderate intensity workouts for days that you do not do heavy compoud upper body exercises.