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Clomid doesn't work? Pfft! For my buddy Nelson

poantrex

New member
Since you're so adamant that clomid is useless - thought I would find some references LOL. I can find plenty mroe if you would like.


Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

PMID: 12524089 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Testosterone treatment in hypogonadal men: prostate-specific antigen level and risk of prostate cancer.

Guay AT, Perez JB, Fitaihi WA, Vereb M.

Section of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Center for Sexual Function, Lahey Clinic Northshore, Peabody, Massachusetts 01960, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels in hypogonadal men after testosterone replacement by three different methods and attempt to determine any possible relationship between hypogonadism and prostate cancer in this study population. METHODS: A total of 90 consecutive men who had erectile dysfunction and were found to have hypogonadism were monitored with digital rectal examination (DRE) and measurement of PSA levels before and after testosterone replacement therapy. The patients were treated with one of three options: (1) testosterone enanthate by intramuscular injections, 200 or 300 mg every 2 or 3 weeks (N = 25); (2) testosterone nonscrotal patches, 5 mg daily (N = 16); or (3) clomiphene citrate, 50 mg orally three times a week, in patients with functional secondary hypogonadism (N = 49). Treatment was continued for 2 to 3 months, after which PSA levels were reassessed. Patients with suspicious results on DRE and increased PSA levels before or after treatment with testosterone underwent prostate biopsy. For statistical analysis, patients were categorized into two age-groups--40 to 60 years old and 61 to 80 years old. RESULTS: With all methods of testosterone replacement, PSA levels increased in both age-groups. Endogenous testosterone elevation from clomiphene stimulation raised PSA levels the highest, and testosterone patches yielded the least PSA response. Ten men underwent biopsy of the prostate. In one patient, a nodule was found on DRE; the other nine men underwent biopsy because of suspicious PSA levels. Of these patients, two were found to have adenocarcinoma, and a third man who underwent rebiopsy was also found to have cancer. Therefore, 3 of the 90 patients (3.3%) had prostate cancer. CONCLUSIONS: PSA levels increased in response to all types of testosterone replacement, regardless of whether the testosterone level was raised endogenously or exogenously. PSA levels are inappropriately low in hypogonadal men and may mask an underlying cancer. Determining PSA levels before and after testosterone treatment is recommended. Elevated PSA levels before or after testosterone therapy should prompt performance of a urologic evaluation for possible prostate biopsy.

PMID: 11421528 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.

Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP.

University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Department of Medicine/Endocrinology-5ACC, Albuquerque 87131, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DESIGN: An uncontrolled case study. SETTING: The outpatient endocrinology clinic of a university tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): A 29-year-old male who has run 50 to 90 miles per week since 15 years of age and who presented with a pelvic stress fracture, markedly decreased bone mineral density, and symptomatic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, and T before and after CC therapy, as well as clinical indicators of gonadal function. RESULT(S): Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. CONCLUSION(S): Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

PMID: 9093212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Effect of raising endogenous testosterone levels in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism: double blind placebo-controlled trial with clomiphene citrate.

Guay AT, Bansal S, Heatley GJ.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic, Burlington, Massachusetts 01805, USA.

Secondary hypogonadism is not an infrequent abnormality in older patients presenting with the primary complaint of erectile dysfunction. Because of the role of testosterone in mediating sexual desire and erectile function in men, these patients are usually treated with exogenous testosterone, which, while elevating the circulating androgens, suppresses gonadotropins from the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. The response of this form of therapy, although extolled in the lay literature, has usually not been effective in restoring or even improving sexual function. This failure of response could be the result of suppression of gonadotropins or the lack of a cause and effect relationship between sexual function and circulating androgens in this group of patients. Further, because exogenous testosterone can potentially increase the risk of prostate disease, it is important to be sure of the benefit sought, i.e. an increase in sexual function. In an attempt to answer this question, we measured the hormone levels and studied the sexual function in 17 patients with erectile dysfunction who were found to have secondary hypogonadism. This double blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study consisted of treatment with clomiphene citrate and a placebo for 2 months each. Similar to our previous observations, LH, FSH, and total and free testosterone levels showed a significant elevation in response to clomiphene citrate over the response to placebo. However, sexual function, as monitored by questionnaires and nocturnal penile tumescence and rigidity testing, did not improve except for some limited parameters in younger and healthier men. The results confirmed that there can be a functional secondary hypogonadism in men on an out-patient basis, but correlation of the hormonal status does not universally reverse the associated erectile dysfunction to normal, thus requiring closer scrutiny of claims of cause and effect relationships between hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8530597 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Alcoholic hypogonadism: hormonal response to clomiphene.

Martinez-Riera A, Santolaria-Fernandez F, Gonzalez Reimers E, Milena A, Gomez-Sirvent JL, Rodriguez-Moreno F, Gonzalez-Martin I, Rodriguez-Rodriguez E.

Servicio de Medicina Interna, Hospital Universitario de Canarias, La Laguna, Canary Islands, Spain.

To investigate the androgen, weak androgen, estrogen, and gonadotrophin response to clomiphene in alcoholics, we determined in 63 male patients (25 with and 38 without liver cirrhosis) serum testosterone, sexual hormone binding protein (SHBG), dehidroepiandrosterone, androstenedione, LH, FSH, prolactin, and estradiol levels, on the first and the sixth day after admission, and after a course of 8 days of clomiphene 200 mg/day. The same test was performed on 15 healthy volunteers. Cirrhotic patients showed decreased basal testosterone levels and a loss of the circadian rhythm with recovery after clomiphene. Although basal testosterone levels in noncirrhotic alcoholics did not differ from those of the controls, there was a significant improvement after withdrawal. SHBG levels were higher in both groups of alcoholics than in controls, pointing to a worse degree of hypogonadism, because only the free hormone is active. Before the clomiphene test, serum LH and FSH levels were nonsignificantly higher in both groups of alcoholics than in the control group. After clomiphene both LH and FSH increased. Androstenedione and estradiol showed a (parallelism) similar behavior in alcoholic and in cirrhotic groups, showing in both cases higher levels than in the control group, and an increase after clomiphene, perhaps reflecting peripheral conversion of androgens to estrogens. Because clomiphene has no effect on the adrenal cortex, the increase of androstenedione after clomiphene points to its testicular origin (directly or after testosterone conversion) and not to an adrenal one. The highest serum estradiol levels were observed in cirrhotics with ascites or gynecomastia. We have not found any relation between serum hormone levels and alcohol intake nor with nutritional status.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 8590623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.

PMID: 8459872 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
if i'm not mistaken he never said it didn't work, just that there are other and perhaps better alternatives for people that have bad side effects from clomid.
 
Little Rage said:
if i'm not mistaken he never said it didn't work, just that there are other and perhaps better alternatives for people that have bad side effects from clomid.

Actually, he has stated several times that clomid can actually lower test levels - more specifically, I recall him stating more than once that clomid is "useless", "makes things worse" and causes "dead dick". Oddly enough, he doesn't hesitate to recommend a product that he had input in the making of....when the said product is questionable at best for PCT.
 
well drugs affect people differently, to some it may be useless, cause dead dick, etc. Take fina for instance, some people get rashes from an allergic reaction, some have fina dick (others don't), etc.
 
"I am telling you guys, clomid is useless!, it is crap and lowers test levels. What you need is this GREAT, REVOLUTIONARY, NEW PRODUCT! called POST-CYCLE from the PROTEINFACTORY.COM.....etc"
 
Little Rage said:
if i'm not mistaken he never said it didn't work, just that there are other and perhaps better alternatives for people that have bad side effects from clomid.

Actually he has said that it doesn't work AND there are better alternatives. Clomid has always done me well although this time around post cycle I didn't use it and I'm recovering just fine.
 
Some people do well on clomid but for some, the sides are too much and Nolva is a better alternative.

Also, do not dismiss clomid if you haven't tried lower doses: ie 50-75mg ED. There's no real need to start at 300mg and then 100, just start at 75 and then quickly lower to 50. If the sides are still overwhelming and you don't get much out of it, drop it.
 
Weren't you the guy that got shut down for months after a few weeks of dbol? What do you use post cycle?
 
well drugs affect people differently, to some it may be useless, cause dead dick, etc. Take fina for instance, some people get rashes from an allergic reaction, some have fina dick (others don't), etc.


This statement is pretty much N/A . Side effects are differnt for people yes, but drugs acts the same.
That is like saying if inject 200 mgs of test and you do the same, one of us may only wind up with 50 mgs because we react differently.
 
This topic has been debated to death with more references to the science than one can count. Who cares? If it works for you go for it.
 
slobberknocker said:
Weren't you the guy that got shut down for months after a few weeks of dbol? What do you use post cycle?

Yeah, for my first cycle :)

I wouldn't repeat something like that ever again.
 
Nelson

The truth is that Nelson was molested when he was 12 by a man with the last name Clomid. :D Only kidding there Nelson. the way you go on about the evils of Clomid though, I just couldn't resist.
 
poantrex said:


Actually, he has stated several times that clomid can actually lower test levels - more specifically, I recall him stating more than once that clomid is "useless", "makes things worse" and causes "dead dick". Oddly enough, he doesn't hesitate to recommend a product that he had input in the making of....when the said product is questionable at best for PCT.


Well, first of all, you're liar.


Secondly, you have your facts worng.

Thirdly, you don't know what you're doing and you don't know what you're talking about.

But okay, let's take it step by step.

FACT: I never said that Clomd didn't work on everybody.

FACT: Many people have a bad reaction to Clomid.

FACT: Clomid increases SHBG.

FACT: Clomid has been shown to lower LH.

FACT: Too much Clomid can give synptoms of high estrogen.

FACT: Clomid kills libido in a lot of people. (That isn't making the situation worse?)

FACT: People take more anti e's than you often need.

FCT: Clomid causes vision distubances

FACT: Clomid and nolva reduce IGF-1

FACT: Too little estrogen is as bad as too much. Maybe worse.

FACT: Cloid cause depression in many people.

FACT: There are better alternatives.

FACT: Most people don't even read posted studies or are capable of understanding them. If they did, they'd see how sketchy and flawed those studies are. Did you read them? Bet not.

I think it's funny how a few nit wits accuse me of forcing my opinions down everyone's throat. Yet, antagonistic posts such as this are acceptable.

Hey, no one has to listen to my advice. But many people have and are grateful for it. Many haven't and have told me they wish they had. Take it for what it's worth.

If Clomid works for you... fine. But I don't even think that's the case. You're just trying to make a point against me and you made it really badly. You have your facts wrong, you have little experience, you haven't even been able to recover from a cycle well yourself, and you lied. It's up to the members to decide whose information is more benificial. Either way, doesn't affect me one bit.
 
Nelson Montana said:



Well, first of all, you're liar.


Secondly, you have your facts worng.

Thirdly, you don't know what you're doing and you don't know what you're talking about.

But okay, let's take it step by step.

FACT: I never said that Clomd didn't work on everybody.

FACT: Many people have a bad reaction to Clomid.

FACT: Clomid increases SHBG.

FACT: Clomid has been shown to lower LH.

FACT: Too much Clomid can give synptoms of high estrogen.

FACT: Clomid kills libido in a lot of people. (That isn't making the situation worse?)

FACT: People take more anti e's than you often need.

FCT: Clomid causes vision distubances

FACT: Clomid and nolva reduce IGF-1

FACT: Too little estrogen is as bad as too much. Maybe worse.

FACT: Cloid cause depression in many people.

FACT: There are better alternatives.

FACT: Most people don't even read posted studies or are capable of understanding them. If they did, they'd see how sketchy and flawed those studies are. Did you read them? Bet not.

I think it's funny how a few nit wits accuse me of forcing my opinions down everyone's throat. Yet, antagonistic posts such as this are acceptable.

Hey, no one has to listen to my advice. But many people have and are grateful for it. Many haven't and have told me they wish they had. Take it for what it's worth.

If Clomid works for you... fine. But I don't even think that's the case. You're just trying to make a point against me and you made it really badly. You have your facts wrong, you have little experience, you haven't even been able to recover from a cycle well yourself, and you lied. It's up to the members to decide whose information is more benificial. Either way, doesn't affect me one bit.


I love you Nelson!
 
Juice Authority said:
This topic has been debated to death with more references to the science than one can count. Who cares? If it works for you go for it.

my thoughts exactly. there are 100s of posts on this which have just ended up in mudslinging. if someone wants to take clomid go ahead- or take whatever else, shit for all one cares.
 
Juice Authority said:
This topic has been debated to death with more references to the science than one can count. Who cares? If it works for you go for it.

exactly...like any other kind of drug, you have to use it and see how you react. Then you can say if it works or not. If it works, great!!..if don't, SHUT UP!!/:rolleyes:
 
Nelson Montana said:



FACT: Many people have a bad reaction to Clomid.



And many of these people created a product to compete with it LOL

FACT: Clomid increases SHBG.

Show me *one* study showing this. ONE.

FACT: Clomid has been shown to lower LH.

Hogwash.. Again, show me *one* study showing this.

FACT: Too much Clomid can give synptoms of high estrogen.

During therapy but not after.

FACT: Clomid kills libido in a lot of people. (That isn't making the situation worse?)

Possibly during therapy, but not after. The nice thing is that clomid is *proven* A lot of the crap you that have you in a certain PF formula has been shown time and time again to be useless in humans.
 
poantrex said:

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

A 30-year-old male.

That's a study on ONE guy recovering over 2 months. I think I can do that naturally myself (although not willing to give it a shot)....

poantrex said:

Testosterone treatment in hypogonadal men: prostate-specific antigen level and risk of prostate cancer...Endogenous testosterone elevation from clomiphene stimulation raised PSA levels the highest...

Great clomid therapy results in PSA levels that are higher than any of the other forms of treatment. Is this good?

poantrex said:
Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.

Again ONE guy recovered over 6 months. So?


poantrex said:
Effect of raising endogenous testosterone levels in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism: double blind placebo-controlled trial with clomiphene citrate...

...LH, FSH, and total and free testosterone levels showed a significant elevation in response to clomiphene citrate over the response to placebo. However, sexual function, as monitored by questionnaires and nocturnal penile tumescence and rigidity testing, did not improve except for some limited parameters in younger and healthier men. The results confirmed that there can be a functional secondary hypogonadism in men on an out-patient basis, but correlation of the hormonal status does not universally reverse the associated erectile dysfunction to normal, thus requiring closer scrutiny of claims of cause and effect relationships between hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction....

So serum test goes up but libido and ability stay impaired on clomid...great...
 
This shit has been rehashed so many times here, nobody cares. Clomid didn't work for me, I will never use it again. Clomid didn't work for one of my friends, he's done with it too. After losing gains from 3 cycles he couldn't fool himself that it was working anymore.

Go ahead, keep using clomid. Please.

If you think it's working for you, and you feel fine, by all means it must be the drug for you.
 
good post but people spend too much time looking to disprove nelson. ive never heard him say that he is the 'end all' but does point out a lot of ideas. i bought his book. ive been through countless classes in science for school, have read about AS for the last 10 years and he makes SENSE!

and clomid makes me a crying turd so i stay away.
 
From my understanding, clomid is used primarily for restoring LH levels... but if your gonads are in hibernation, LH cannot stimulate testosterone production if the Leydig cells in the testis are not functioning.
 
pharmguy said:

This statement is pretty much N/A . Side effects are differnt for people yes, but drugs acts the same.
That is like saying if inject 200 mgs of test and you do the same, one of us may only wind up with 50 mgs because we react differently.

No Pharmguy ... this is not what he is getting at. Its like saying that if i inject 200 mgs of test and you do the same, one of us will respond differently to the higher test levels in the body. Many factors play a role on this, mostly genetic.

Mavy
 
" The nice thing is that clomid is *proven* "

Now you should get your facts straight. Clomid is proven in some, not others. If you love it, love it. If you hate it, hate it.

The gift of choice.
 
Fair enough. Show me some studies on the ingredients in Nelson's much vaunted Post Cycle product and its ability to normalize androgen production though....I have a fleeting thought that this won't happen.
 
poantrex said:
Fair enough. Show me some studies on the ingredients in Nelson's much vaunted Post Cycle product and its ability to normalize androgen production though....I have a fleeting thought that this won't happen.

References are listed on the website.
 
Thanks, i'll check it out and report my thoughts later. I still maintain that clomid works much better than any OTC therapy if used properly (meaning 8-12 weeks of use, not just 2).
 
Im not an advocate for PF. I haven't tried and doubt I will. I like the herbal post cycle remedies these days, but I don't use them to often. No matter how much I hate to say it, I would like to see clinical trials on these pf products as well. I used to use clomid, but would feel like a wasted pile of shit on it. I stick to hcg/proviron as my universal post cycle. Bloodwork always comes out normal, and I love it. Has anyone even used the new PF products yet ?
 
lostlazy said:
Im not an advocate for PF. I haven't tried and doubt I will. I like the herbal post cycle remedies these days, but I don't use them to often. No matter how much I hate to say it, I would like to see clinical trials on these pf products as well. I used to use clomid, but would feel like a wasted pile of shit on it. I stick to hcg/proviron as my universal post cycle. Bloodwork always comes out normal, and I love it. Has anyone even used the new PF products yet ?

No, I don't think anyone has...they are 5wk late on their initial shipment. Annoying as shit. I was repeatedly assured, on the phone, that they WOULD be shipping on Sept 5th. This was even AFTER I reminded them that they have had problems with timeliness in the past. I was going to give it a shot this post cycle...well I am recovered now so I wont be using it.
 
I know Im not the first one to say this (and Im not directing this to anyone in particular nor am I preaching for Nelson), can we stop all the Nelson hating and bashing, its really taking its toll on the forum and its getting tired as year-old dog shit. Every other thread is an individual trying to behead Nelson and degrade/belittle him. I look up to the majority of users on this forum (Fonz, PsychedOut, Ulter, Kronk, QuadSweep, Radar, THX9000, Juice Authority and Mavy just to name a few and many more and nelson included), all of you's provide excellent and useful information here, thats why I come here and feel its the best bodybuilding forum, HANDS DOWN. But all this reference nonsense and school-girl quarreling is really making the forum look like horse shit. Lets just stop bros, and continue to grow as a community and help each other out and prosper! I see alot of unfairness and uncecessary attitude, all Im saying is that we should all chill, sit back, and DART! Peace. ;)
 
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