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Clen and Early Death?

txmike

New member
A former proBB from the 80's is helping me work out with my stuff. I'd like to add Clen 2wks on/ 2wks off. He told me that when he was in his prime, people stayed away from Clen, because it was known as a killer drug. At the time it was hyped up in BB articles as a problem drug.

Was all that hype from too much talk or is Clen safe to use for fat loss or in a cutting cycle?


Mike
 
lets bump this since I'm bout to have my first run with clen very soon.
Maybe Macro can give some opinions on it as he is always talking about how ALCAR helps protect cardiac tissue when using clen and what not.
 
No, no truth to that myth, legend, what ever, like everything use it With discretion



Don’t just jump on .180mg a day

work it up, and you should see how you react,
 
solidspine said:
No, no truth to that myth, legend, what ever, like everything use it With discretion



Don’t just jump on .180mg a day

work it up, and you should see how you react,


Thanks spine, i was hoping you would jump in on this thread . K to u
 
How old is your former BB?

When was he in his prime?






The reason I ask is you get better every year.


You just have to redefine your goals,
 
I've gone as high as 200mcg but I have a low reaction to clen. Everyone reacts differently.

80mcg - 120mcg is a 'safe zone' depending on the individual of course. IMO - The key is to start low and then ramp up to hit the level you need to reach the desired effect. I had a bro who used 40mcg and was lit - I on the other hand felt no effect durig my last cycle and I bumped it up to 200mcg.
 
Clen is for those that are actually quite lean,


For body builders if your BF is over 15% don’t bother with clenbuteral.


Simply redefine your diet and reduce you extra calories.


Once you get below 15% and you want to maintain muscle and reduce fat drastically, based on normal standards, clen is great.

Say you are at 12% and want to drop to 8%, diet isn’t going to cut it, also age and genetics are factors that help or hinder this.





I don’t get the early death part of all this?

What are you referring too?


John Lennon? George Reeves? Obesity Increases Chances of Early Death?
 
Cardio Tissue Necrosis (rats)
Leaches Vitamins, and calcium
Electrolyte depletion......the list goes on and on.........

no thanks
 
solidspine said:
How old is your former BB?
When was he in his prime?
The reason I ask is you get better every year.
You just have to redefine your goals,


He's 52 and competed in the California Arnold Classic(?).
He did redefine his goals when his doctor told him he was becoming diabetic.
At 5'9" and 260 solid he chose to reduce his size.
He was no longer competing and had other goals that became more important.

Mike
 
i hope its not that bad. im using it right now. for some reason, i dont really get any effects from it unless i run it around 200mcg per day
 
I was dissapointed when I ran clen. I took the taurine and Potassium and the cramping was unbearable at night. I will try it again. Hopefully it will be better when I run it again around march or april
 
solidspine said:
Clen is for those that are actually quite lean,
For body builders if your BF is over 15% don’t bother with clenbuteral.
Simply redefine your diet and reduce you extra calories.
Once you get below 15% and you want to maintain muscle and reduce fat drastically, based on normal standards, clen is great.
Say you are at 12% and want to drop to 8%, diet isn’t going to cut it, also age and genetics are factors that help or hinder this.
I don’t get the early death part of all this?
What are you referring too?
John Lennon? George Reeves? Obesity Increases Chances of Early Death?

The hype about clen in the early 80's turned it in to a killer drug according to my friend. A man who is expected to live to about 80 yo, but dies from a drug expected to leave the man in better condition would have been said to have died an early death.

The hype from the 80's my friend reported is nothing new. Look at the hype about steroids in mainstream press, the 'emergency anti-steriod laws' passed by U.S. Congress, and compare that to the safe and effective use described in this forum.

solidspine said:
Clen is for those that are actually quite lean,
For body builders if your BF is over 15% don’t bother with clenbuteral.
Simply redefine your diet and reduce you extra calories.
Once you get below 15% and you want to maintain muscle and reduce fat drastically, based on normal standards, clen is great.


This is the first I've read that it's only for quite lean people. The studies I've read did not include a lean existing BF as a requirement for use.

This article on Clen included dosage and side effects:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/behar11.htm

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0176.htm
Studies on rats showed heart size increase around the 4th week. That might be another reason to stick with the 2wk on and off.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-clenbuterol.asp
This article cautions about using Clen with other fat burning stacks, because sides can be accumulative. The purpose of Clen is to raise the core body temp 1F. The article says that the degree increase raises a 5% increase in burned maintenance calories.

Based on that number Clen doesn't seem to be worthwhile to me.
3000 cal * .05 * 7 = 1050 calories/week = 1/3 lb/week.
That's hardly worth it.
I saw guys in here reporting a 5#/week weight loss just from Clen.

Anyone have that experience?

Thanks,
Mike
 
SwolK said:
i hope its not that bad. im using it right now. for some reason, i dont really get any effects from it unless i run it around 200mcg per day

Hey Swolk,
I should have been more cautious when I titled this thread.
In no way do I want to create more hype about a product either good or bad.

I'd like to try it. At the same time, I'm getting mixed reviews on consistant effects, but nobody in here has said that he died from it. :)
That's a good thing.

From the posts I've read about Clen on this forum, the worst effect has been shaking something fierce.

Mike
 
txmike said:
Hey Swolk,
I should have been more cautious when I titled this thread.
In no way do I want to create more hype about a product either good or bad.

I'd like to try it. At the same time, I'm getting mixed reviews on consistant effects, but nobody in here has said that he died from it. :)
That's a good thing.

From the posts I've read about Clen on this forum, the worst effect has been shaking something fierce.

Mike
yea, i dont start shaking until about 150-200mcg
 
txmike said:
The hype about clen in the early 80's turned it in to a killer drug according to my friend. A man who is expected to live to about 80 yo, but dies from a drug expected to leave the man in better condition would have been said to have died an early death.

The hype from the 80's my friend reported is nothing new. Look at the hype about steroids in mainstream press, the 'emergency anti-steriod laws' passed by U.S. Congress, and compare that to the safe and effective use described in this forum.




This is the first I've read that it's only for quite lean people. The studies I've read did not include a lean existing BF as a requirement for use.

This article on Clen included dosage and side effects:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/behar11.htm

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0176.htm
Studies on rats showed heart size increase around the 4th week. That might be another reason to stick with the 2wk on and off.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-clenbuterol.asp
This article cautions about using Clen with other fat burning stacks, because sides can be accumulative. The purpose of Clen is to raise the core body temp 1F. The article says that the degree increase raises a 5% increase in burned maintenance calories.

Based on that number Clen doesn't seem to be worthwhile to me.
3000 cal * .05 * 7 = 1050 calories/week = 1/3 lb/week.
That's hardly worth it.
I saw guys in here reporting a 5#/week weight loss just from Clen.

Anyone have that experience?

Thanks,
Mike
the second study is pretty interesting and scary. anyone else know the validity of those results?
 
The studies are interesting, and I am sure they have merit,



I only speak from personal experience.



But a couple of comments regarding your studies and post,


At my age it is hard, at least for me, to drop fat only and get down to below 10% bf.

I don’t need clen to drop from 20% to 15%, but it is very useful to try and reach 5% from 10% BF

Consequently I only use it when my BF is down below 15% close to 12%.



Also in my opinion, of all the makers of clenbuterol, the only manufacture that seems to constantly make a reliable and effective product is Spiropent.
 
I love clen. Not for its fatloss properties but for its anti-catabolic properties. I actually got great lean gains while on it and no cramps. I am actually considering running it long term with benedryl to reset the receptors every 3 weeks. If clen is as bad as some people say...using it so much might be a really bad idea. Anyone have thoughts on this??
 
I haven't heard anyone say that it is that bad except my friend and one guy in this thread. That's why I'm asking about Clen.

The shakes concern me, because this is a CNS affecting drug.
I like my CNS :) I have pictures of Parkinson's in my head.
Length of use of this product is a concern, because of thickening of the heart in the 4th week in mice, so I like the 2weeks on and maybe longer off.

The 'studies' I did were simple searches on the internet. No internet page is in itself valid information.

Solidspine, You're doing great with your body no matter what your age. I screwed myself up. I've got huge arms, a nice chest, monster calves and I'm very strong. So, I then increased my BF to 28%. It sucks and I've been fighting a yo-yo dropping fat. I don't know why, but that's my obstacle, so I'm making a 12 week effort that will make me look good enough to go visit family in January. Clen could be an extra item in my aresenal, but I still don't know. Right now, I'd be happy with 18% BF.

Mike
 
Mike


Clen should help, and it is fine, long term. The side affects go away for me within a week or so, shaking hands, hyper than hypo, lethargic,

It is prescribed for patients with chronic breathing disorders like asthma, it will initially raise your blood pressure,

I blame the yo-yo dieting problem on being married, and I have no will power.


Can be great on a diet and then my wife will bring home a cheese cake or make an apple pie.



It is actually easier for me to starve for three days and then start a low calorie high protein diet to lose fat. It is a real head game, so good luck if you figure out any tricks share them.
 
I get the shakes at 20mcg. It works to say the least. I dropped 20lbs in about 10 weeks on clen and a ckd style diet.
 
I found Spiropent from Europe very weak. Currently I'm using AG clen and I seem to require 200+ mcg to get any effect. I have mixed feelings about it. I sweat a bit more from the elevated body temps, and my heartrate is noticably faster so it is speeding up my metabolism. The cramps are bad regardless of 5+ grams of Taurine/day. It makes me tired and I find it slightly difficult to speak without stuttering a bit.
 
Clen is like caffeine


If you have never had it before and drink 4 cups you will shake, have panic attacks, and think you are dying.


Booze, Caffeine, drugs, and clen all this crap we put in our bodies,

We develop tolerances to the side affects, and they are then minimized.


Clen works if you shake or don’t,

200mcg is a lot, but maybe the gear is dosed differently.


I am not advocating, promoting or selling anything, if you don’t like it, don’t use it.


I am on clen now, use to be 2 days on 2 days off, now go about 14 days, and off 7 and go 14 again.


The key is lower your carbs as you take the clen. You will lose weight, as in fat, maintain you muscle, and lower your BF percentage.
 
I appreciate these posts. I know that many people choose to use Clen, but a 2 pound a week weight loss is an average diet loss without the drugs or the strange side effects. I would be nice to get me faster to my goals, but right now, Clen doesn't seem to be for me.

Thanks,
Mike
 
SwolK said:
i hope its not that bad. im using it right now. for some reason, i dont really get any effects from it unless i run it around 200mcg per day

200mcg/day ...nice!!! ...but if i were you i'd up it cuz if you're not on the floor convulsing then it's simply not working. :rolleyes:
...good luck to you BTW


SwolK said:
the second study is pretty interesting and scary. anyone else know the validity of those results?

ummm ...what else do you need? ...your very own cardiac episode?


txmike said:
I'd like to try it. At the same time, I'm getting mixed reviews on consistant effects, but nobody in here has said that he died from it. :)
That's a good thing.
Mike

well last time i checked ...the dead are still not posting :rolleyes:


look please don't mind me ...i must just be getting old ...but i'll leave you with a some thoughts "long term effects" or "long term complications"
 
txmike said:
I appreciate these posts. I know that many people choose to use Clen, but a 2 pound a week weight loss is an average diet loss without the drugs or the strange side effects. I would be nice to get me faster to my goals, but right now, Clen doesn't seem to be for me.

Thanks,
Mike

anything faster than 2lbs a week and you will lose muscle.
 
solidspine said:
Clen is like caffeine
If you have never had it before and drink 4 cups you will shake, have panic attacks, and think you are dying.
Booze, Caffeine, drugs, and clen all this crap we put in our bodies,
We develop tolerances to the side affects, and they are then minimized.
Clen works if you shake or don’t,
200mcg is a lot, but maybe the gear is dosed differently.
I am not advocating, promoting or selling anything, if you don’t like it, don’t use it.
I am on clen now, use to be 2 days on 2 days off, now go about 14 days, and off 7 and go 14 again.
The key is lower your carbs as you take the clen. You will lose weight, as in fat, maintain you muscle, and lower your BF percentage.

There may be similar tolerances, but Clen is not caffeine.
I don't drink alcohol or coffee or high caffeine drinks.
I don't take drugs except aspirin from time to time.
I haven't had the perfect diet and I've put on fat weight.
For me to decide to do AAS I had to come to a high wall that made me look in other directions.

Every one of these drugs has known and unknown side effects. I'm no believer in a 100% safe, synthetic drug, but I've made my decisions after research that satisfies me as to what I'm putting in my body.

It's not that I don't like it. It's that I haven't obtained enough information for me to yet choose to use it and I wanted to use it.

If the 2 pound limit per week exists to lose fat and no muscle, and
'the key' is to lower carbs, which is dieting........
why not just diet and take a lighter over-the-counter thermogenic?

There are so many people in this forum who use Clen.
How come there are few good responses in here besides...
'it worked great for me.'

How did it work so well?
How is this product so superior that it's worth the risks?

Thanks,
Mike
 
Clen is like caffeine

wrong and a pretty terrible metaphor considering i can drink 7 gallons of coffee a day and not have my heart tissue destroyed. its a vasodilator which causes programmed cell death of heart tissue. at 200mcg a day you are using the same amount lbs. for lbs. that was used to extrapolate the thesis that it causes programmed cell death in rat heart tissue.

clen is garbage. the effects are subpar and minimal at most. and i would think its a pretty big deal that heart tissue is being stripped of vitamins and nutrients that are not easily replaced. to cut an extra pound or two of fat, not worth it, but im sure there will be plenty here who will find reasons why its a necessary part of their diet regiment.
 
timtim said:
its a vasodilator which causes programmed cell death of heart tissue. QUOTE]



You really think a supplement that acts as a vasodilator causes cell death in heart tissue'? So you are saying taking L-arginine and NO2 supps cause cell death in heart tissue??? I think im going to disagree with this statement, but thats just me. maybe some other bros can put their 2ml worth in on it.
 
My personal experience with Clenbuterol consisted of uncontrollable tremors that interfered with my work, terrible cramps even with electrolyte and Taurine supplementation, and anxiety attacks which I never had experienced before. But, by far the worst side was that the Clen fucked with my heartbeat...bad! My heart was skipping and adding beats like crazy...kind of like a techno remix or something. So yeah, Clen and I don't get along well.
 
Compare clen to an ECA stack (ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin), which is probably still better than an OTC thermogenic

I've read that clean boosts your metabolic rate by 10%
an ECA stack boosts it 3%

I feel shitty and strung out on caffeine/ephedrine, but can function reasonably well on clen and can sleep just fine at night.

txmike said:
There may be similar tolerances, but Clen is not caffeine.
I don't drink alcohol or coffee or high caffeine drinks.
I don't take drugs except aspirin from time to time.
I haven't had the perfect diet and I've put on fat weight.
For me to decide to do AAS I had to come to a high wall that made me look in other directions.

Every one of these drugs has known and unknown side effects. I'm no believer in a 100% safe, synthetic drug, but I've made my decisions after research that satisfies me as to what I'm putting in my body.

It's not that I don't like it. It's that I haven't obtained enough information for me to yet choose to use it and I wanted to use it.

If the 2 pound limit per week exists to lose fat and no muscle, and
'the key' is to lower carbs, which is dieting........
why not just diet and take a lighter over-the-counter thermogenic?

There are so many people in this forum who use Clen.
How come there are few good responses in here besides...
'it worked great for me.'

How did it work so well?
How is this product so superior that it's worth the risks?

Thanks,
Mike
 
OMEGA said:
Clen is a horrible drug imo

Hell ya it is! I lose lots of muscle on it too. Preserves muscle my ass! Makes me weak, tired, my lifts go to shit, my mind goes to shit, and I drop just as much muscle as fat. What a waste of time......garbage drug!
 
td1111 said:
Compare clen to an ECA stack (ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin), which is probably still better than an OTC thermogenic

I've read that clean boosts your metabolic rate by 10%
an ECA stack boosts it 3%

I feel shitty and strung out on caffeine/ephedrine, but can function reasonably well on clen and can sleep just fine at night.

I read about the 10% metabolic rate increase, too.
It's what got me excited to look into Clen.
How meaningful is the statistic when the results are still 2# of weightloss per week?

Mike
 
macro can u add to this debate as far as cardiac damage and trying to prevent it and if the sides are worse than the positives
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
200mcg/day ...nice!!! ...but if i were you i'd up it cuz if you're not on the floor convulsing then it's simply not working. :rolleyes:
...good luck to you BTW




ummm ...what else do you need? ...your very own cardiac episode?




well last time i checked ...the dead are still not posting :rolleyes:


look please don't mind me ...i must just be getting old ...but i'll leave you with a some thoughts "long term effects" or "long term complications"
obvisouly no one else is on the floor convulsing either...smart ass
 
I know someone who has passed away and he just so happened to be using clen at the time. The guy was a big dude and by no means fat. Very sad story.. Clen is a dangerous drug.
 
karachi183 said:
I know someone who has passed away and he just so happened to be using clen at the time. The guy was a big dude and by no means fat. Very sad story.. Clen is a dangerous drug.
sorry to hear about that.
what did he pass away from, heart failure?
 
If clen was that bad for you then it wouldn't have been given to ashtma patients for ages. Its not about using it, its about the dosage, just bc you don't feel it doesn't mean its not doing anything. NO body needs 200mcg.
 
SwolK said:
sorry to hear about that.
what did he pass away from, heart failure?

His Parents didn't want a report(if that's correct) to be performed so they just layed him to rest rather quickly.. But his wife said he came home from work and put his head in the freezer complaing that it was hot and before she could call an ambulance he walked outside and collapsed.... I would say it had to be.. At the time he was on sus and clen only.. Other than that i have nothing else to go on at alll.
 
Neo22 said:
If clen was that bad for you then it wouldn't have been given to ashtma patients for ages. Its not about using it, its about the dosage, just bc you don't feel it doesn't mean its not doing anything. NO body needs 200mcg.


Then why is it illegal in the US?
 
krishna said:
Hell ya it is! I lose lots of muscle on it too. Preserves muscle my ass! Makes me weak, tired, my lifts go to shit, my mind goes to shit, and I drop just as much muscle as fat. What a waste of time......garbage drug!

clen makes me shed fat while keeping muscle, it also makes me feel like shit if i take for over a week straight (have used it up to 8 weeks straight with benadryl) i found that if i take it 2 days on 2 days off and supplement with pot/mag/taurine most of my muscle cramps and other electrolyte depletion issuses are taken care of...I also take about 8 grams of alcar for cardiac tissue protection
 
timtim said:
your 100% wrong. its been out of pharmaceutical rotation for a long, long time. might want to check your facts.

actually I'm not 100% wrong, but gf gets it from her doctor for ashtma. But thanks for playing. Most doctors will presribe albuterol as an alternative.
 
clenbuterol is not prescribed in the usa, fact.

nice try being a smart guy but albuterol is not clenbuterol. if it was clenbuterol it would be named such, but its not, its called albuterol. 2 different drugs with similar effects but clenbuterol is out of rotation, why? because it of all the nasty sides.

your completely full of shit if you say your doc prescribes clenbuterol and he is in the usa.
 
timtim said:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/cas/press/cas60629-1.pdf



well the article i posted from the DEA website says clenbuterol is only available to treat asthma in HORSES.

is your woman a horse? thought not, but a good story you got there. unless your woman goes to a vet for her check ups.

ya i just make shit up. I don't really have time to argue with fucktards like yourself. I know what I see in her medicine cabinet. I know albuterol is a entirely different chemcial. But clen DOES NOT HAVE THAT MANY TERRIBLE SIDE EFFECTS>

PLEASE LINK ME TO YOUR FUCKING STUDIES ON HUMANS!!
 
timtim said:
clenbuterol is not prescribed in the usa, fact.

nice try being a smart guy but albuterol is not clenbuterol. if it was clenbuterol it would be named such, but its not, its called albuterol. 2 different drugs with similar effects but clenbuterol is out of rotation, why? because it of all the nasty sides.

your completely full of shit if you say your doc prescribes clenbuterol and he is in the usa.

ITS NOT A FACT, DOCTORS CAN PRESRIBE WHAT THEY WISH. KTHANX!
 
ok, thats why the Drug Enforcement Agency states that clenbuterol is only legal for the treatment of asthma in horses. but your doc will ruin his career illegally prescribing clenbuterol for your woman. im curious, how do you fill a prescribtion for a drug that is unavailable except for vetrinary use?

SHUT YOUR MAN PLEASER (thats your mouth, in case your alittle dim) AND STOP SHOUTING!!! I DONT CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOU OR YOUR WOMAN TO HAVE TO READ YOU SHOUTING ABOUT IT.

lets continue with the name calling, its cool especially when im playing against a liar. liar, liar pants on fire!

ohh, my doc prescribes ghb and ketamine to me too. he plays by his own rules.
 
heres more to refute this ridiculous story:

Animal drugs not approved for human use such as Clenbuterol, a drug approved for the treatment of horses but also known as a substance of abuse in the "body building" community and banned by the International Olympic Committee.

taken from this website: http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t040722a.html

so again, how does a doctor with a medical license prescribe this drug when it is not approved for human use in the usa?

they dont. simple as that. bull shit story.
 
lol easy bros. Im with tim and dont think they are allowed to prescribe clen considering the FDA has it banned for the US. but, maybe some crazy coincidence she really does, strange thangs happen. A nice pic posted of the bottle with an expiration date would be nice :)

post it up bro


And one of the bros said "8 grams" of ALCAR to help protect cardiac tissue, please tell me that is throughout the whole cycle not per day. Kind of confused me since they come in 500mg caps. I would like to know the daily dose to use for the ALCAR caps tho ?
 
SwolK said:
obvisouly no one else is on the floor convulsing either...smart ass

read my post again i said "200mcg/day ...nice!!! ...but if i were you i'd up it cuz if you're not on the floor convulsing then it's simply not working."

and your right i was being a sarcastic smart ass cuz the alternative would have been to call you an idiot ...which i refrained from cuz then the message would have just been totally lost.

believe it or not in a round about way i was trying to help you (and others) ...so i really do hope that you got more out of what i said then the fact that i'm not very nice, but in case you didn't i'll just say it CLEN IS BAD NEWS ...even though it's pretty clear that's not what you want to hear.
 
timtim said:
heres more to refute this ridiculous story:



taken from this website: http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t040722a.html

so again, how does a doctor with a medical license prescribe this drug when it is not approved for human use in the usa?

they dont. simple as that. bull shit story.

No bullshit and I could acare less if an internet warrior who has never touched a weight in his life calls bullshit on me. I'm stating the truth and stand behind it. There are docs that go out of their ways you should know this.
 
called my friend who just started his residency, your a liar and the proof is out there. i provided all the support i need in the form of DEA statements.

who has never touched a weight in his life

i have 18 years in the gym asshole. your a clown and your proving it more and more with each weak ass post. no doctor can prescribe drugs which are not for human consumption. fuck your bullshit story, your a liar and everyone can see that.

what pharmacy carries vet drugs not for human consumption? the DEA says we cannot take them. they are the governing body by which your doc is allowed to prescribe meds. HE CANT PRESCRIBE WHAT IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION its impossible. get that, he cant, no matter what you say. your a liar.

thanks for trying liar. save your bullshit liar.

done here.
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
read my post again i said "200mcg/day ...nice!!! ...but if i were you i'd up it cuz if you're not on the floor convulsing then it's simply not working."

and your right i was being a sarcastic smart ass cuz the alternative would have been to call you an idiot ...which i refrained from cuz then the message would have just been totally lost.

believe it or not in a round about way i was trying to help you (and others) ...so i really do hope that you got more out of what i said then the fact that i'm not very nice, but in case you didn't i'll just say it CLEN IS BAD NEWS ...even though it's pretty clear that's not what you want to hear.
so instead of being an ass, you could have said, i think 200mcg of clen a too high and dangerous....
 
timtim said:
called my friend who just started his residency, your a liar and the proof is out there. i provided all the support i need in the form of DEA statements.



i have 18 years in the gym asshole. your a clown and your proving it more and more with each weak ass post. no doctor can prescribe drugs which are not for human consumption. fuck your bullshit story, your a liar and everyone can see that.

what pharmacy carries vet drugs not for human consumption? the DEA says we cannot take them. they are the governing body by which your doc is allowed to prescribe meds. HE CANT PRESCRIBE WHAT IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION its impossible. get that, he cant, no matter what you say. your a liar.

thanks for trying liar. save your bullshit liar.

done here.


Thats great, but docs can provide whatever they can get with whatever means possible. You must be a virgin who the hell uses the word clown LMFAO. NEver before did I say that she had been prescibed anything within the last few months. I said that she had it in her medicine cabinet and her doc had prescibed it to her. WHo are you ot know what each individual doc can get? You are nobody. You are a douchecanoe that posts on elitefitness thinking he is a hard ass bc he has a friend in "residency school" LOL. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO LIE. I COULD GIVE TWO SHITS IF YOU CAN GET CLEN FROM YOUR DOC OR NOT.
 
SwolK said:
so instead of being an ass, you could have said, i think 200mcg of clen a too high and dangerous....

does it really matter how i said it? ...you're not a baby

...if i said "I THINK 200mcg of clen is too high and dangerous" like you wanted me too ...that just sounds like my opinion.

CLEN dangers are not a matter of opinion ...they are a matter of FACT.
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
does it really matter how i said it? ...you're not a baby

...if i said "I THINK 200mcg of clen is too high and dangerous" like you wanted me too ...that just sounds like my opinion.

CLEN dangers are not a matter of opinion ...they are a matter of FACT.

You're right bro, and, all the other chemicals we use are dangerous also, including all AAS. it's a matter of moderation and researching chemicals as much as possible and trying to run them for the right amount of time and right amount of dosages.
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
does it really matter how i said it? ...you're not a baby

...if i said "I THINK 200mcg of clen is too high and dangerous" like you wanted me too ...that just sounds like my opinion.

CLEN dangers are not a matter of opinion ...they are a matter of FACT.
everything we do is dangerous. AAS are dangerous if not used in a correct manor.
 
Neo22 said:
ITS NOT A FACT, DOCTORS CAN PRESRIBE WHAT THEY WISH. KTHANX!

This is probably the stupidest thing you've said so far. Medications have to be regulated and sanctioned in order to be prescribed. Can a doctor prescribe extacy to their patients? There are lots of studies showing clen is dangerous. It can cause cardiac cell death in as little as a few hours. Obviously, the studies aren't going to label it "garbage drug". Everyone else gets the inference though. The fact that you can't isn't doing much for your intelligence.
 
krishna said:
This is probably the stupidest thing you've said so far. Medications have to be regulated and sanctioned in order to be prescribed. Can a doctor prescribe extacy to their patients? There are lots of studies showing clen is dangerous. It can cause cardiac cell death in as little as a few hours. Obviously, the studies aren't going to label it "garbage drug". Everyone else gets the inference though. The fact that you can't isn't doing much for your intelligence.
hey bro,
which study said it causes cardiac death in hours?

the study posted earlier said 4 weeks...
 
GymIntensity said:
You're right bro, and, all the other chemicals we use are dangerous also, including all AAS. it's a matter of moderation and researching chemicals as much as possible and trying to run them for the right amount of time and right amount of dosages.

SwolK said:
everything we do is dangerous. AAS are dangerous if not used in a correct manor.


i could not agree with both of you more ...but the thread reads "clen and early death" ...so at the moment we are discussing CLEN.

also IMO ...AAS and CLEN are not comparable ...as TEST is a synthetic version of a substance that occurs naturally in you
...CLEN, on the other hand, is not.


just some food for thought on what you fellas said though...
diet, training hard, proper, rest, and supplementation will do more for you than the AAS themselves!
...futhermore it's usually when you short-cut the system, and want the AAS to do most of the work that moderation and good sense go out the window and that's when problems arise.
AAS will bring you to YOUR next level (and in a very impressive manner when everything else i mentioned is inline) ...but it's not gonna change your genetics ...and when you try to force it to ...again that's when you'll start to run into problems.

IMO unless you're a competitor CLEN shouldn't even be a consideration ...and it should NEVER be a substitute diet and hard work in any case.
 
krishna said:
This is probably the stupidest thing you've said so far. Medications have to be regulated and sanctioned in order to be prescribed. Can a doctor prescribe extacy to their patients? There are lots of studies showing clen is dangerous. It can cause cardiac cell death in as little as a few hours. Obviously, the studies aren't going to label it "garbage drug". Everyone else gets the inference though. The fact that you can't isn't doing much for your intelligence.

I could careless what a few juicers on a webboard think. You and no one else have ever answered my question. WHERE ARE THE STUDIES THAT SHOW IT CAUSES CARDIAC CELL DEATH IN HUMANS????
 
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO LIE. I COULD GIVE TWO SHITS IF YOU CAN GET CLEN FROM YOUR DOC OR NOT.

you are lying because if the DEA and FDA say a drug is not for human consumption a doctor cant prescribe it because its not available for prescription, how can it be filled? it cant. your a liar trying to save face.

NEver before did I say that she had been prescibed anything within the last few months. I said that she had it in her medicine cabinet and her doc had prescibed it to her.

nice try back pedaling on your initial story liar, unless the prescription was from the early 90's.

your a liar and your story is fabricated. this is the usa, doctors cant do whatever they like - nice try on that one asshole, thats why they get busted for legally prescribing oxycontin to people in large amounts. but they can do what they like. you have no clue and are a lying prick. keep referencing me as some kid too, i love when im 100% right and some asshole tries and argues a point which is a lie. your dumb and a liar too. good combination.

im done here. your too stupid to even get the point that you were 100% proven wrong by actual DEA statements. get it, proven wrong. thanks for the fun, this has been nothing but hilarious watching you try and back up a complete lie.


heres a study you can stick up your ass liar:
this one has been around for awhile. try and do your own research dickhead, as i proved you wrong with the prescription availability i shouldnt even fucking post this for a lying jerkoff like you, but because i like to prove idiots wrong, heres some food for thought.

here you go. it was done on rats but the dosage is nearly the same as human consumption.

Low Dose Clen Induces Cardiac Apoptosis (cell death of heart cells)
Originaly posted by nandi on CM board.

It's been known for some time that Clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much Clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells Clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.


J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, Clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of Clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after Clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of Clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by Clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.
 
also, are there any studies that show that the heart tissue can rejuvinate itself?
ill search
 
SwolK said:
i found a few articles that say that clen acutually helped patients with heart failure

http://www.behavemed.com/info/news/GStone060426.asp

this is true, though you need to read the fine print, it did so by sustaining left ventricle muscle (preventing atropy) during chronic LVAD therapy. other studies have found it to not be effective in this aspect.


1: J Heart Lung Transplant. 2006 Sep;25(9):1084-90. Links
Effect of clenbuterol on cardiac and skeletal muscle function during left ventricular assist device support.George I, Xydas S, Mancini DM, Lamanca J, DiTullio M, Marboe CC, Shane E, Schulman AR, Colley PM, Petrilli CM, Naka Y, Oz MC, Maybaum S.
Department of Surgery, Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery, Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York 10032, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: High-dose clenbuterol (a selective beta2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown. METHODS: Seven subjects with heart failure (5 ischemic, 2 non-ischemic) were started on oral clenbuterol 5 to 46 weeks post-LVAD implantation and up-titrated to daily doses of 720 microg. The following procedures were performed at baseline and after 3 months of therapy: echocardiography at reduced support (4 liters/min); cardiopulmonary exercise testing; body composition analysis; and quadriceps maximal voluntary contraction (MVC). Myocardial histologic analysis was measured at device implantation and explantation. RESULTS: There were no serious adverse events or arrhythmias. Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was elevated in 4 subjects, with no clinical sequelae. No change in ejection fraction was seen. End-diastolic dimension increased significantly (4.73 +/- 0.67 vs 5.24 +/- 0.66; p < 0.01), despite a trend toward increased LV mass. Body weight and lean mass increased significantly (75.5 +/- 17.9 vs 79.2 +/- 25.1 kg, 21.1 +/- 8.9 vs 23.6 +/- 9.7 kg, respectively; both p < 0.05). Exercise capacity did not change, but MVC improved significantly from 37.0 +/- 15.7 to 45.8 +/- 20.6 kg (p < 0.05). No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen. CONCLUSIONS: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support. Further study will clarify its potential for cardiac and skeletal muscle recovery.


however in a normal, non atrophied system, the indications are for apoptosis.


what it does indicate is that clenbuterol does have potential for use in preventing atrophy.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
this is true, though you need to read the fine print, it did so by sustaining left ventricle muscle (preventing atropy) during chronic LVAD therapy. other studies have found it to not be effective in this aspect.


1: J Heart Lung Transplant. 2006 Sep;25(9):1084-90. Links
Effect of clenbuterol on cardiac and skeletal muscle function during left ventricular assist device support.George I, Xydas S, Mancini DM, Lamanca J, DiTullio M, Marboe CC, Shane E, Schulman AR, Colley PM, Petrilli CM, Naka Y, Oz MC, Maybaum S.
Department of Surgery, Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery, Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York 10032, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: High-dose clenbuterol (a selective beta2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown. METHODS: Seven subjects with heart failure (5 ischemic, 2 non-ischemic) were started on oral clenbuterol 5 to 46 weeks post-LVAD implantation and up-titrated to daily doses of 720 microg. The following procedures were performed at baseline and after 3 months of therapy: echocardiography at reduced support (4 liters/min); cardiopulmonary exercise testing; body composition analysis; and quadriceps maximal voluntary contraction (MVC). Myocardial histologic analysis was measured at device implantation and explantation. RESULTS: There were no serious adverse events or arrhythmias. Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was elevated in 4 subjects, with no clinical sequelae. No change in ejection fraction was seen. End-diastolic dimension increased significantly (4.73 +/- 0.67 vs 5.24 +/- 0.66; p < 0.01), despite a trend toward increased LV mass. Body weight and lean mass increased significantly (75.5 +/- 17.9 vs 79.2 +/- 25.1 kg, 21.1 +/- 8.9 vs 23.6 +/- 9.7 kg, respectively; both p < 0.05). Exercise capacity did not change, but MVC improved significantly from 37.0 +/- 15.7 to 45.8 +/- 20.6 kg (p < 0.05). No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen. CONCLUSIONS: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support. Further study will clarify its potential for cardiac and skeletal muscle recovery.


however in a normal, non atrophied system, the indications are for apoptosis.


what it does indicate is that clenbuterol does have potential for use in preventing atrophy.
thanks for clearing some of that up
how does Alcar(sp?) prevent heart damage?
 
GymIntensity said:
good info swolk, k

i'd like to know the dose given to rats that caused cardiac cell death.
this article says 2mg per kg of body weight. this seem very high as we take doses in micrograms (mcg)
 
macrophage69alpha said:
apoptosis was observed at 1mcg/kg (which falls under most common usage pattern)

mac, ive read that some guys go as high as 8grams / day with the ALCAR. what is the max recommended dose? 8grams seems too high to me.
 
GymIntensity said:
mac, ive read that some guys go as high as 8grams / day with the ALCAR. what is the max recommended dose? 8grams seems too high to me.

max dose is relative, some people see better results at high dosages.

though typically reccomend 2-4 grams day. though nothing wrong with trying higher, you may find you love it.
 
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