Cant feel it on 5x5. Why?

[gurusevuppal]

hey bros,
jus quick question, i been on 5x5 for nearly 5 weeks, but after every workout i dont feel the pump i used on my old problem. Is there anything different with 5x5 program. any kind of suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[petpre61]

pump isnt really an indicator for effective training.

 

[coreyb]

the difference is your old program was most likely a BB style workout which is all about pumping your muscles and making you "look" strong. 5x5 style workouts are for people who want to be strong and dont really worry about having a pump.

 

[skullcrushin22]

The pump really is not a good thing, but everyone tries to achieve it. The pump is when your muscles go into acid. When do you start to feel the burn your muscles ph begins to drop below 6.5 which messes up a lot of links in the energy chain. Acidity reduces muscle power, when your muscles reaches below 6.5 ph a certain enzyme stops letting the muscle use glycogen. There is also a lot of ammonia build up and loss of phosphate. There are things to help all this such as bicarbonate phosphate to reduce muscle and blood acidity, specific amino acids to reduce ammonia levels and l carnitine to maintan free fatty acid oxidation for endurance. Caffeine and ginseng can help also.

 

[deathdroprob]

I was on the 3x5 for a few weeks. For size msotly and a bit of strength. Gotmy dead lift up to 100kgs form about 90 and went for benching 80kgs for 3 reps to working 3x8. But the whole routine sucked dick in my opinion. I went back to the good old, Mon: chest arms Wed: Back Traps Shoulders and have put on 4 kgs being consistent. And I always feel Ive had my "pump" along with the sore muscles assuring me they have actaully been used.

 

[blut wump]

This I really don't understand; you made some reasonably impressive quantifiable gains but you think the whole routine sucked dick. The purpose of the routine is to make you stronger.

Something everyone should know is that, provided food intake is adequate, about 85-90% of muscle size comes from being strong. The remaining 10-15% comes from BB-style workouts. Why do 80% of gym-goers spend 90% of their time chasing that 10% of muscle growth and ignore the useful 90%?

Also, having sore muscles indicates that your conditioning is not up to par. Muscles get sore from being asked to do things that they are unaccustomed to doing and not in condition for. If you do something regularly and frequently then they don't get sore. You're foolng yourself to think that leaving a muscle for a week and then believing that soreness is a sign of progress. Muscle soreness is not an indicator of a productive workout, merely an indicator that your muscles weren't prepared for the workout.

 

[StuWard]

I agree completely with this. It's the taking the week off between workouts that causes the DOMS. Once I switched to a higher frequency, the DOMS dinminished to the point that I really don't get sore anymore.

 

[bottleneckblooz]

Also, having sore muscles indicates that your conditioning is not up to par. Muscles get sore from being asked to do things that they are unaccustomed to doing and not in condition for.

Isn't that the whole point? Muscles only grow if they NEED to grow to handle the stress you place on them. Pushing your body past the limits of what it is accustomed to is what triggers the bodys "need to get bigger and stronger" factor.

At least that's my opinion.

 

[blut wump]

A week of little work deconditions them, though.

Ask pretty much anyone who squats multiple times per week whether they still get leg soreness from squatting. You'll find that, despite typically doing a greater workload over the week compared with a once-per week squatter, they'll get better growth and strength combined with minimal to zero soreness.

You're correct in that muscles only change in response to a stimulus but they also regress in the absence of the stimulus. Provided you're not someone with piss poor recovery ability, you'll get better results from a workout that hits the muscle groups multiple times per week. Of course, it's always possible for anyone not a newbie to blast themselves into a state that they're unable to work multiple times per week. This is typically not optimal, though.

That said, provided one works for some well-defined progression, once per week workouts can be very effective. For almost everyone, more than once per week is more effective but can be harder to manage.

 

[fallingeggs]

just to add one more person that agrees with most that has been said, especially blut wump -- getting a pump does not mean anything. i have been doing squat and deadlift up to two times a week for months and i never get sore, yet i have been putting on mass and the weight has been moving up.

the 5x5 is a great program

 

[timtim]

blut wump knows his stuff. the pump is useless.

 

[Sub-Zero]

i disagree with everyone saying getting a pump is useless.

overrated, DEFINATELY.

not useless though.

as for just banging away at 5x5 for one or two go throughs every once in a while, and worrying about a pump. dont. make progress. the body needs to adapt. you get bigger.

i think it was madcow himself who said that he would take a week or two between his 5x5 cycles to work on being "pretty", and lifting like a bodybuilder and doing some bicep curls, and getting a pump type workout.

but for your rediculous mass and strength, dont worry about being sore, getting a pump, or not getting them

 

[skullcrushin22]

i disagree with everyone saying getting a pump is useless.

overrated, DEFINATELY.

not useless though.

as for just banging away at 5x5 for one or two go throughs every once in a while, and worrying about a pump. dont. make progress. the body needs to adapt. you get bigger.

i think it was madcow himself who said that he would take a week or two between his 5x5 cycles to work on being "pretty", and lifting like a bodybuilder and doing some bicep curls, and getting a pump type workout.

but for your rediculous mass and strength, dont worry about being sore, getting a pump, or not getting them

Getting to the point where you are pumped is not useless, continuing to work out after your pumped and can feel your muscles full of lactic acid is useless.

 

[deathdroprob]

If your muslces arnt getting sore, they must have addapted to what you are doing right?, so how will they grow when they are used to doing somthing so frequently? Its all the simple things.
I went on the 3x5, nailed correct form and as said above, I done it for size and I didnt get it. I ate like mad, got a bit stronger but lost weight. When I went to my BB style work out I gained the weight back and then some. I am condisering making a BB approach routine HEAVILY based AROUND heavy compounds, still being a once a week style routine.

 

[blut wump]

Calories In Vs Calories Out equates to weight loss or weight gain.

If you lost weight then you weren't eating enough. It's really that simple. Had you eaten more then you would have grown and been stronger still. C'mon guys, this isn't rocket science.

DDP, good luck with the new workouts. Provided you work for progression: getting stronger and aiming to add weight to the bar over time at your chosen rep ranges, you should do well with your program.

 

[StuWard]

There are 2 types of hypertrophy, Sarcoplasmic and Myofibrillar. The first is a swelling of the fluids within the muscle that does not contribute to strength. This is also called non-functional hypertrophy. This is usually developed with bodybuilding style training. The second type is actual increase in the size of the fibres and does contribute to strength increases. This is also call functional hypertrophy. This is usually developed by low reps and heavy weights. I expect that for deathdroprob, he built up the second but lost some of the first. If you want size and strength you need to hit all rep ranges.

here's a link that explains it in a little more detail.
http://www.strengthcats.com/JDallmusclesnotequal.htm

 

[gurusevuppal]

I was on the 3x5 for a few weeks. For size msotly and a bit of strength. Gotmy dead lift up to 100kgs form about 90 and went for benching 80kgs for 3 reps to working 3x8. But the whole routine sucked dick in my opinion. I went back to the good old, Mon: chest arms Wed: Back Traps Shoulders and have put on 4 kgs being consistent. And I always feel Ive had my "pump" along with the sore muscles assuring me they have actaully been used.

yeh bra, same here

 

[gurusevuppal]

This I really don't understand; you made some reasonably impressive quantifiable gains but you think the whole routine sucked dick. The purpose of the routine is to make you stronger.

Something everyone should know is that, provided food intake is adequate, about 85-90% of muscle size comes from being strong. The remaining 10-15% comes from BB-style workouts. Why do 80% of gym-goers spend 90% of their time chasing that 10% of muscle growth and ignore the useful 90%?

Also, having sore muscles indicates that your conditioning is not up to par. Muscles get sore from being asked to do things that they are unaccustomed to doing and not in condition for. If you do something regularly and frequently then they don't get sore. You're foolng yourself to think that leaving a muscle for a week and then believing that soreness is a sign of progress. Muscle soreness is not an indicator of a productive workout, merely an indicator that your muscles weren't prepared for the workout.

mate thats so helpful, now i get it, its abt getting stronger & not abt freakin pump. 5x5 rulessss!!!!!!!!!

 

[gurusevuppal]

now i am another guy who believes in strength over pump

A week of little work deconditions them, though.

Ask pretty much anyone who squats multiple times per week whether they still get leg soreness from squatting. You'll find that, despite typically doing a greater workload over the week compared with a once-per week squatter, they'll get better growth and strength combined with minimal to zero soreness.

You're correct in that muscles only change in response to a stimulus but they also regress in the absence of the stimulus. Provided you're not someone with piss poor recovery ability, you'll get better results from a workout that hits the muscle groups multiple times per week. Of course, it's always possible for anyone not a newbie to blast themselves into a state that they're unable to work multiple times per week. This is typically not optimal, though.

That said, provided one works for some well-defined progression, once per week workouts can be very effective. For almost everyone, more than once per week is more effective but can be harder to manage.

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

This I really don't understand; you made some reasonably impressive quantifiable gains but you think the whole routine sucked dick. The purpose of the routine is to make you stronger.

Something everyone should know is that, provided food intake is adequate, about 85-90% of muscle size comes from being strong. The remaining 10-15% comes from BB-style workouts. Why do 80% of gym-goers spend 90% of their time chasing that 10% of muscle growth and ignore the useful 90%?

Also, having sore muscles indicates that your conditioning is not up to par. Muscles get sore from being asked to do things that they are unaccustomed to doing and not in condition for. If you do something regularly and frequently then they don't get sore. You're foolng yourself to think that leaving a muscle for a week and then believing that soreness is a sign of progress. Muscle soreness is not an indicator of a productive workout, merely an indicator that your muscles weren't prepared for the workout.

I was always under the impression that if your not sore the next day then you didnt have a good workout. I thought also if you were sore you did more "damage" to the muscle so it can build to be bigger and stronger.

I train hard everytime, well 99% ofd the time I go in(the other 1% I force myself to go and my workouts are mediocre at best) so I try to change up my rotuine when I am not getting sore to make me sore. I see what you are saying but it goes against everything I have ever thought. hmmmph

RN

 

[blut wump]

Madcow had a link to a really interesting discussion over at Meso that I've lost. Maybe it's lying around the 5x5 mother-thread.

The really interesting thing, though, is that so many of us on the 5x5, doing multiple whole-body workouts per week have grown and gotten stronger and DOMS is just something that's a memory and happens to others at the gym.

These days, when I'm not doing 5x5, which should never be a year-round program, I usually try to work everything twice per week and that seems just as good for avoiding DOMS and still making progress.

Oly lifters will squat maybe 6 days in a week, sometimes with morning and afternoon sessions.

If you've not read this article on supercompensation and single-factor training, it's worth a read:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

 

[artificialaspirations]

I enjoy the pump and rarely get sore anymore. I really enjoy it when it happens as it makes me feel alive. I find myself chasing the soreness because it happens so infrequently.

That being said, I do make progress by not being sore. I see more changes when I do though...

 

[deathdroprob]

I cycle my BB style routines like amd. I have a different workout for almost every body part that I can cycle for about 4 weeks or so. Since doing this about 3 months ago I have put on 3 kgs and my back has gotten alot of defintion. I must say, rarley doing deadlifts, when I do,do them. I do them on a smith machine to really isolate the back, and I loved it. Sore back for ages and I enjoyed doin the excersise.

BTW I said a few days ago the 3x5 and 5x5 "sucked dick". I said this becuase when I did it, I was always stressed about adding weight and trying not to stall my progress. I didnt get to do excersises I enjoyed and no longer enjoy squats Doing this program made me not enjoy going to the gym, which is one of the few things I love in life. But thats my opinion. I apologies to any I may of offended saying the progam was shit, seeings I get pissed when people tell me lifting is shit altogether. We need less of those people.

 

[blut wump]

Your comment reminds me of doing the Korte 3x3. The program involves nothing but squat, bench and deadlift 3x each per week for two months. At least you get a lot of practice on form.