Cannot Find a Effective Thermogetic!!

[jnuts]

I cannot find a Effective thermogetic aid anywhere!! I've tried Hydroxycut, Zenadrine, Sprio Jet, you name it and it seems to work in the a.m. before I train, but by 2 p.m. my energy is zapped. I'm taking in about 181 g. protein, 81 g. carb. and 14 g. fat. I do weights 5 days a week and cardio 6 days. I'm trying to drop BF for my next Figure contest in 2 weeks. I'm about 12 BF and aiming for 10 BF. I have two kids, age 2 and 4 and by the afternoon I hardly have the energy to make it thru the day!! Help Mrs. JNuts My hubby has been very supportive but he is feeling the brunt of this also.

 

[MrMuscle]

how do take them?

i use ripped fuel, and i take 2 in the am before cardio, 2 at 1pm and 2 and 2 at 7pm, and it seems to work fine.

 

[jnuts]

Cannot find an Effective Thermogetic

I take the max. reccomd. dose before I workout then half dose. in the afternoon, Every Thermogetic is different regarding dosage. I only take half the dosage in the afternnon because I get really cranky and irritable w/my children.

 

[Arioch]

How long have you been taking them, and have you tried NYC?

You are aware that the stimulant effect decreases, but the thermogenic effect is still present?

 

[Robert Jan]

are you sure your expectations of the thermogenics are realistic?
also what arioch sayd...

 

[Sassy69]

I like NYC best -- the old Adipo formula worked for me but that's not available anymore. Have you always had trouble w/ energy in the afternoon and also with takign the thermo in the afternoon? I was thinking that since you are trying to drop that last bit of bodyfat in 2 weeks, you are probably calorie depleting and tired from training/cardio -- so your body may not have much left to give by afternoon. When I was competing, walking across the parking lot to work in the morning was misery and if the wind was blowing I just wanted to start crying because it was such an effort.

Can you throw in anything herbal for a kick-- green tea, green tea extract, l-carnitine, ginseng & yohimbine?

 

[MS]

I don't know of anything (except maybe amphetamines) that will help a great deal with energy when you're very lean and in the last few weeks precomp. Have you had any high carb refeeds recently?? And as pointed out already, the CNS stimulationg from ECA stacks wears off pretty quickly, but they may still be having some affect on thermogenesis and appetite.

If your diet is on track, then I'm surprised that you're not cranky with everyone all the time LOL. Any chance you can just send the kids away for the next two weeks and crank up the afternoon dose?? No, I didn't really think so

 

[jnuts]

Have you had any high carb refeeds recently??

My wife and I were talking about that this afternoon (husband posting now)

Every 4th day she's been bumping carbs from ~90g up to ~120... I REALLY don't think that's enough, but I haven't been able to wade thru the carb refeeds to figure out how much is enough for her.


In general, her energy lagged a bit in the afternoon, but with all of this going on it's gotten worse. As this thing has gone on, here body fat has gone down and caffiene consumption has gone up, so I'm guessing that her body is becoming used to it, though the thermogenic aspect is still working. After this comp. I'm making sure she's off it for awhile. She's been on them for about 2 months straight now, so it's time for a break.

And what is NYC?. There are lots of refs on the board, but nothing pointing me in the right direction on where to buy it.

thanks!

 

[MS]

120g of carbs does not make a refeed!!!! She should consider taking a whole day off (ASAP) and eating nothing but carbs the whole day (for at least 14 hours). She should not take any thermogenics while she has her refeed, and should also nix the cardio and weights for that day. 500g of carbs is a high carb day!! She will likely find that her fatloss increases after just one of these refeed days as it kick starts her metabolism. 2 days would be even better, but it may be a bit close to her show for this.......

Check out www.anabolicfitness.net for a combo of norephedrine, caffeine and yohimbine (aka NYC). It may be a little late at this stage, and I don't think it will make a big difference to her energy levels since norephedrine has almost no CNS effects, but maybe for future diets??

 

[jnuts]

Is there any specific carb types that should be emphasised? Complex vs simple, hi gi vs low gi? She's been eating 1.5 grams per body weight for pro (180gms) - does this stay or go down to 1/lb or go even lower?

Thanks for the NYC pointer! - I've been hunting for info on it but the search function has been so slooooow up until this upgrade. Now I know.

thanks!

 

[MS]

Don't worry about protein intake. Try to get mostly high GI carbs in the first half of the day, and mainly low GI in the second half, but it doesn't really matter. Let her eat whatever carbs she might have a craving for as long as it's low fat. She might want to throw in some fat and fiber into her last meal just to slow gastric emptying and sustain the benefits while she sleeps, but otherwise very low fat and fiber.

 

[jnuts]

refeed1.gif

I went to http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm for the Gi list, and came up with the meals below. Just want to make sure that I didn't swap hi/lo GI. I think I got it right, but just want to make sure.

Does this look right?

We might add a tbsp of Flax on the last meal, like you recommended.

thanks!

 

[MS]

I can't access your meal plan, but I will re state that it's not that important. Have her eat stuff she likes. It could be jelly beans or fat free ice cream, mashed potatoes or oatmeal, low fat granola bars or anything else that is high in carbs and low in fat. Just add in some fiber rich foods and protein at the end of the day to increase the GI, plus a little flaxseed oil in the last meal. Consider it a low fat cheat day. Pasta and low fat soy ice cream with chocolate sauce are my favorites for refeeds.

 

[nikkita]

Have you tried clen?

 

[jnuts]

Have you tried clen?

Nope, and I'm guessing she won't try it.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Once again, Spatts hit the nail on the head -

ECAs have such a high risk - since they are sold OTC people seem to have no fear of them. I took various ECAs for a couple years and finally kicked them totally about a month ago. It was miserable- I was totally addicted to them (and wasn't even aware of it!) and the couple weeks after stopping sucked.

My energy level has increased by leaps and bounds since stopping - I used to be dragging my mid-afternoon after bounching off the walls in the morning. My energy level has evened out SO much. I never even realized what they were doing to me until I stopped taking them! I hope I don't ever take them again...don't plan on it, but you never know!

I know everyone is different and most people swear by them, I'm definately not knocking their use either. I'm not sure why MrsJnuts won't use clen or AS (I'm assuming it's because of the health risks and/or side effects?!?!?) - but there is more of a risk with using high amounts of ECA for an extended period of time.

If you aren't gettting an energy boost from the ECA it means you body has totally adapted to it - my experience is that you need to stop taking them for a couple weeks then start again to get that energy boost again. But those who said it earlier - even after the boost feeling is gone, you still get the thermo effect in your body (so keeping your metabo. raised), just not that obvious boosted feeling.

 

[jnuts]

She won't take clen or AS, but she'll take max doses of ECA for extended periods of time?

Once again, risk is relative.

I think I hear an echo... I agree, to a point

She's used the ECAs before, but never for this long of a time. She's always used them for a month or so, then off for a month or so. These last couple of months it's been fairly continuous

I would much rather she cycles on/off the ECA. It's a nasty little cycle that she gets into, and I can start to see it forming well in advance of the actual effects. Push herself for a goal - needs more coffee to keep going - coffee levels start to increase thru the day - energy starts to sag - BUT WE STILL NEED THE COFFE / ECA TO MAKE IT THRU THE DAY....slow down girl...

Hopefully reading this thread will reinforce the need for cycling on/off.... and appear to be something other than the husband bitching She started the thread and I just pop in every now and again .. Hopefully our posts don't seem too schizoprenic..

She's hit the ECA hard for two months with a short break in the middle. After this next comp coming at the end of the month, we are going to have a little Betty Ford action going on 'round the house. Time for a break.

Trying to do what she's doing with two little ones running around is tough, but I don't want her to make it worse on herself by needing an IV drip of coffee or any other OTC stimulant. When the coffee runs out around here, it's a small crisis.

I'm no saint in this regard, but I'm much more mellow than I used to be. When I was flying regularly with very odd hours, I drank a whole lot more coffee than I do now. If I ever go overboard on a day now, I definitely feel it and try to reel myself back in.

From what I've read on clen, it appears to be a mixed bag - it works better than an ECA for some, but not for others. Up until a short time ago, I didn't really know what NYC is - isn't this supposed to be better on the body than an ECA stack?

With regards to AS - it's not an option she desires to pursue.

And here is where I question:

Are you equating extended periods of ECA to be of similar risks as AS? If this is so, is there somewhere I can read it. (not throwing stones, just want to know)

Thanks for all the info so far. It's been an illuminating month since we've been on the boards. The search function is running much faster these days since the upgrade took place, so the I'm off doing more research.

thanks.

 

[Sassy69]

I was just gonna throw in about clen -- all it ever did for me was make me feel like I was in the throws of a 4 hour panic attack and then get headaches. It also make me feel like I'm hungry (that "empty stomach...feed me" feeling).

 

[jnuts]

I was just gonna throw in about clen -- all it ever did for me was make me feel like I was in the throws of a 4 hour panic attack and then get headaches.

Oh..no,no,no,no....we really don't need that happening around this house. Nope, don't want that

This thread my wife start has sent me reading. From what I've seen, it appears that ECA stacks affect different people in different ways. The sides seem to vary to a great degree. It even seems to change depending upon what brand you use. Does this seem to be the case to other folks or am I reading this wrong?

 

[jnuts]

I am not saying the ECA sides are similar, I'm saying they're worse. I would certainly shoot test in my a$$ before I popped an ECA. That's just me.

Fair enough. Does ECA not agree with you or are there other reasons? Just curious. Been doing lots of reading tonight on this subject.

 

[magdelana]

Jnuts/Mevrouw Jnuts, my sisterinlaw has used many themogenic produkts as well and had no sucess with any of them really. But she is using MD6 now and is taking now her second bottle and seeing quite good results. Without changing her diet or excercize at all she is now lost i think 10 pounds. Probalby not water loss either as she has not changed anything in her fluid/food intake. Remember only to take the pills 90 minutes after a carb meal and at least 60 minutes before another.

 

[jnuts]

Jnuts/Mevrouw Jnuts

Is "Mevrouw" = Mrs?

Okay, now searching for more info on MD6...

 

[jnuts]

I was able to hit 8% on a couple occasions without the use of thermos.

We are both still learning the ins and outs of the diet and there are some things that I'd like to do differently the next time she wants to start cutting. We are bouncing carbs way up tomorrow, based on MS's posted earlier in the thread. I'm glad MS chimed in, because I wanted that to happen earlier. Sometimes the info just has to come from somebody else other than the husband. The diet has left her with low energy levels. I've convinced her to add more fat into it than she was taking before, but it's not helping the way I wished. She's just doing a lot and not a lot of calories are coming in. There some great cutting/bulking diets to start from as a base. I'm of the opinion you've got to tailor them to fit the individual, and the only way that is going to happen is do take the experience garned each time you do the diet. We've been fairly religious with logging everything food/exercise wise to include a diary of how she felt. Hopefully this will allow for a better experience next time. To make a long story even longer... I would like to think we are doing right by the diet, but I don't think its the best. In the beginning I don't think there was enough fat in it, and now I'm really kicking myself for not pushing the carb/up refeed issue earlier. It probably would have helped alleviate some of these issues.

Just wait until I start asking questions on a good bulking diet... I've been doing my reading, so hopefully I won't be out in left field.

Even though my wife is talking about a thermogenic aid, she's really talking about the kick it gives her - and now that it's worn off, she's looking for something else to replace it. She's working out in the morning on an empty stomach and likes the ECA to get her going. Come home from the workout, have a cup of coffee or two during the day... I think anybody would have an energy sag in the afternoon, especially if they are cutting and working out. In my opinion she needs to lay off the coffe/eca as soon as this contest is over. No eca until she cuts again. That's my opinion... we'll see how it goes over. I'm sure she'll read this in the morning and let me know.

 

[Arioch]

Search medline. There are several studies regarding ECA/ephedrine addiction, including at least one specific to female athletes. Guess why I am mentioning this.

I agree with the boosting carbs way up there. 120 grams is a snack, not a refeed.

Sometimes the info just has to come from somebody else other than the husband

Believe me, I understand.

Get her on here, perhaps?

 

[jnuts]

Hello, This is Mrs. Jnuts
I've read what you are saying about a refeed, but 2 weeks out from a contest?? I know I'm new to all this diet stuff but isn't this big carbo load going to make me hold h20 and go up in lbs???? Maybe this is a stupid question but I've been on such a low carb. plan 81 grams and up to 120 on every 4th day that 500 grams of carbs seems sooo much. I guess I need some reassurance from you all Mrs. JNUTS

 

[MS]

There's no way a big carb feed 2 weeks out is gonna make you hold water on contest day (I'm assuming you've got a plan for your last week). And we're only talking 1 day where total calories will probably be only slightly above maintenance, so the nett effect on you fat loss plan is only a metabolic boost! You will not gain fat, only energy and increased metabolism.

Spatts, you're on the right track but for different reasons. Drugs like ephedrine (and more so clen) can make asthmatics less responsive to treatment if they are used chronically. But the mechanism is via downregulation, desensitization and sequestration of beta adrenergic receptors. To add another level of complexity to the problem, as many as 30% of caucasians have a genetic change that makes them more prone to this type of downregulation (and a whole host of other metabolic differences).

I have used both ECA and NYC. But Steelweaver and I both compete in 'tested' federations, which means that the last two weeks precomp we have to drop all thermogenics. So not only do you NOT need them to get lean, but you can also go cold turkey (just when you think you'll need them most) and still cope and look good on the day. Yes, they are very addictive, but you just have to recognize this aspect of them and take it into account. They are a supplement, not a solution to all your dieting problems. Maybe you should drop them now since they will only hinder you carb load in the final week (IF you decide to carb load).

 

[jnuts]

Thanks MS- Your right sometimes I think I need them to get a good workout in, rather than rely on my own energy. Its really easy to get used to using them all the time. I feel much better today on this refeed, although my stomach is soo full from eating so many carbs, don't think i can make 500 grams, I'm at 335 and feel stuffed, just not used to it, but my energy and mood is alot better, still coming up w/ a plan for last week, right now was going to keep prot. high @180 and carb @ 81 grams and fat 18-20. Will cut h20 on fri to 1/2 gal and just sips sat. a.m. any suggestions?? Thanx Mrs. JNUTS

 

[jnuts]

Search medline.

Does medline just return abstracts? I think I was searching in the right spot, but was only able to see abstracts of the articles.

Get her on here, perhaps?

She's been on, but mostly during the day. We all know how speedy this board has been lately, during the day. She's been frustrated with how slow the board has been. (who isn't?)

-nuts

 

[Arioch]

There are numerous ways to order the studies.

Subscriptions never hurt. If you are going to continue to use these things, you will invest far less in a couple of subscriptions that you will in supplements. And subscriptions have no side effects.