Can someone explain the theory behind kick starting a cyle?

[Blkout]

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges here. Your first example is too high of a frontload, which means that you wouldnt have 1600mg to play with but 800mg. Next, most people that I know of suffer greatly diminushed gains the longer the cycle goes and why many dont run 14 week cycles. Having siad that the frontload allows gains to come sooner (for many) and allows them to keep the cycle a bit shorter yet still get the same(or better) overall benefit of a longer cycle which has the added benefit of not being shut down so long and offers a faster recovery post cycle.

As for andy's comment you didnt like, you have done nothing but hound frontload threads calling them bullshit and saying they do not work. Then you use the same reasoning(anecdotal) to prove that it doesnt work. So what your saying is that this anecdotal proof is good enough to prove it doesnt work, but not good enough to prove it works. Sounds kind of hipocritical to me.

Granted some people do not respond readily to AAS, normal dose or frontload, these people will not benefit. However, many DO respond readily to AAS as the frontload poll has shown. Not as many people responded to it as I had hoped, but even those that say its not worth doing claimed to notice a benefit, not one of them siad it was totally bogus. So, in addition to the mathmatical equations for hydrolization and half life, the poll shows our anecdotal evidence(both your evidence against, and mine and Andy's evidence for).

Zyg, as much as I normally respect your opinions, they are starting to mean less and less to me. You are changing everything as you go along and your obviously bothered by the fact that someone might have a different opinion than your own. Could it be your God complex or just your moderator status? I don't know and I don't care, your not upsetting me at all and anyone who reads this thread can see that there are two sides to every coin.

As for Andy's remark, it was still immature regardless of what you think. If I called frontloading BS, its not insult to you or him personally, but saying my opinion is worthless is an insult to me. Obviously you don't care because I have stepped on your toes.

As for my post, how did I use too high of a frontload? I have seen many people using 2 and 3 times the normal amount for a frontload, I think it was well within reason. Also I don't think you read very well or either you can't add and subtract very well, but if you were taking 1200mg of Test for the first two weeks, then went back to 400mg for the remainder of the cycle, as opposed to 400mg for the whole cycle, you would save yourself 1600mg of Test in the first two weeks. 1200-400=800 week 1, 1200-400=800 week2, 800+800=1600 left over by week 3. Is it clear yet?

As for not running longer than 14 week cycles, how many pro's run less than 14 weeks? There is no proof of greatly diminished gains, and that rumor probably started with the myth that you need time to clear out your receptors. Only problem with long cycles is that the risk of side effects increase, but surely its no worse than taking double or triple the dosage of an ester up front when frontloading, so we'll leave the side effects out of it. Long cycles are fine and 14 weeks it not really that long anyway.

As for my opinion on frontloading, its just that, MY OPINION, and guess what? I'm entitled to it. No proof has been established as to whether or not it works so what proof do you have? OPINIONS from people how have tried it. That's right.....OPINIONS.

Most of the people in the poll are riding the fence of uncertainty, VERY few had any positive results that could make any claim toward proving it works. The rest state that maybe it helped by a week or so and some are not sure of that. I don't expect too many people to say it does not work at all because those who know don't do it and probably won't respond to the poll. I expect most of the people who respond favorably to be sheep who only follow the leader because they don't know any better. My point is that if it saves a few days or a week, its not worth doing in my opinion when you could just save that extra upfront dosage and use it later at the end of the cycle where more gains would occur. Seems the problem with all steroid users is that everyone wants results overnight, which is why we have such crazy ideas as frontloading. Got to try to see results a few days earlier. Any top bodybuilder will tell you, nothing happens overnight, it takes time to build a quality physique using gear or not. Everyone should learn to be patient and use their gear correctly and the gains will come.

Stacking is a much better alternative to frontloading.......

 

[Zyglamail]

Zyg, as much as I normally respect your opinions, they are starting to mean less and less to me. You are changing everything as you go along and your obviously bothered by the fact that someone might have a different opinion than your own. Could it be your God complex or just your moderator status? I don't know and I don't care, your not upsetting me at all and anyone who reads this thread can see that there are two sides to every coin.

I am changing everything? From my point of view I could say the sameabout your comments. However, this paragraph doesnt have anything to do with that, its just a cleverly worded way to take a personal jab at me and make it look dignified. On second thought, perhaps it is you who has the god complex since you are the one trying so hard to disprove something a couple MODs beleive in. That would seem to be a bigger feather in your hat than me simply disproving you. Hell, ive been wrong before and will be again and I will be the first to admit it, but your attitude has become one of just more than stating your opinion, it has become derogatory to all of those that feel frontloading works.

As for Andy's remark, it was still immature regardless of what you think. If I called frontloading BS, its not insult to you or him personally, but saying my opinion is worthless is an insult to me. Obviously you don't care because I have stepped on your toes.

You took his comment, just like most aspects of frontloading, out of context. In other words your opinion, unless backed by some proof is worthless, or at least as worthless as you view ours. And, our opinion will allways be worthless to you even in light of some logical proof simply because you beleive so strongly against it.

As for my post, how did I use too high of a frontload? I have seen many people using 2 and 3 times the normal amount for a frontload, I think it was well within reason. Also I don't think you read very well or either you can't add and subtract very well, but if you were taking 1200mg of Test for the first two weeks, then went back to 400mg for the remainder of the cycle, as opposed to 400mg for the whole cycle, you would save yourself 1600mg of Test in the first two weeks. 1200-400=800 week 1, 1200-400=800 week2, 800+800=1600 left over by week 3. Is it clear yet?

How did you use too high a frontload huh? What made you decide on those numbers? The reason I say they are too high is because the goal of a frontload is to get blood levels UP TO where they would normally peak on a flat dosed cycle, this can be roughly estimated by using a mathmatical formula with intended doses and inj frequency to get an idea of HOW MUCH to frontload without going above where the cycle would normally peak. It just so happens that with the longer esters (like EQ, deca, enth and cyp) double the dose for the first 2 weeks or triple the dose for the first week gets you to about where you want to be. You tripled the dose for 2 weeks and if thats how you frontload then perhaps thats why your sides are so bad where as others who follow a more thought out frontload dont seem to have problems.

To answer your question though, I am not reading too thuroughly into your posts anymore, because for days now you have been droning on and its getting old. You stated a frontload of 1200mg for 2 weeks then drop to 400mg. If you wanted to do it properly it should only be a 800mg frontload for 2 weeks which means you would have 800mg to play with, not 1600 as I allready stated.

As for not running longer than 14 week cycles, how many pro's run less than 14 weeks? There is no proof of greatly diminished gains, and that rumor probably started with the myth that you need time to clear out your receptors. Only problem with long cycles is that the risk of side effects increase, but surely its no worse than taking double or triple the dosage of an ester up front when frontloading, so we'll leave the side effects out of it. Long cycles are fine and 14 weeks it not really that long anyway.

And how many Pro's do we have on this board? You immediatly seem to assume everyone on the planet who juices is a pro and stays on year round or can afford to or wants to take the health risks. I could explaine to you why gains diminush but no doubt that would simply be drowned out by your opinion that it doesnt no matter how much clinical evidence I mustered to the contrary.

As for my opinion on frontloading, its just that, MY OPINION, and guess what? I'm entitled to it. No proof has been established as to whether or not it works so what proof do you have? OPINIONS from people how have tried it. That's right.....OPINIONS.

Most of the people in the poll are riding the fence of uncertainty, VERY few had any positive results that could make any claim toward proving it works. The rest state that maybe it helped by a week or so and some are not sure of that. I don't expect too many people to say it does not work at all because those who know don't do it and probably won't respond to the poll. I expect most of the people who respond favorably to be sheep who only follow the leader because they don't know any better. My point is that if it saves a few days or a week, its not worth doing in my opinion when you could just save that extra upfront dosage and use it later at the end of the cycle where more gains would occur. Seems the problem with all steroid users is that everyone wants results overnight, which is why we have such crazy ideas as frontloading. Got to try to see results a few days earlier. Any top bodybuilder will tell you, nothing happens overnight, it takes time to build a quality physique using gear or not. Everyone should learn to be patient and use their gear correctly and the gains will come.

Stacking is a much better alternative to frontloading....... [/b]

A couple people who responded maybe riding the fence because they are just now trying it but that does not mean those are the people that voted.

Now you go about insulting others who have tried frontloading saying they are sheep and they follow because they dont know anybetter yet in other posts you claimed that flat dosed cycles were the way to go and have been in use for decades....now by your definition and reasoning to back it up work for me as well? Couldnt I say people follow that old method because they are sheep and dont know anybetter? Its apparent this topic can not be fully understood by some and we will always have those that disagree so I suggest we just let it go until some further clinical studies have been conducted to back up someones claims.

 

[Blkout]

I'm going to let this go because at this point it will only turn to more insults and useless info. I know you obviously feel strongly about frontloading and anyone who dares have a different opinion must be banished to Hell. That's ok, I forgive you for being narrowminded. I understand the theory behind frontloading so there is no sense in explaining it, I just feel that the gains seen from it are not worth talking about. Its like saying that if I take one extra D-bol a week over my normal cycle then I will get better gains. In theory, yes I should because its more overall gear in a week's time than than the usual dose, but lets be honest, one D-Bol a week over the normal cycle is not going to be worth the effort. I feel the same is true with frontloading. Its just not worth the trouble, might as well just save your gear for a longer cycle and gain more at the end than the beginning.

As for the numbers I used for a frontload, they were just random numbers, why are you making such a big deal about it? Feel threatened? I think so.....

I still feel you have a God complex and its more apparent now by your remark about me tring to get a bigger feather in my hat by disproving a few mods. I never mentioned any other mods other than you in that sense. I mentioned Andy but it had nothing to do with his mod status. It was about his immature insult. You seem to be the one who is getting offended here and worried that maybe some of your faithful followers may not see what you've been preaching forever. Let them have their own minds, let them stop being sheep and think for themselves. Its ok to have free thinking on this board. And yes you could say people are sheep by following the old tried and true methods and you would certainly be wrong. In this case, those methods have stood the test of time because quite simply, they work. You don't have people wavering about whether or not a flat cycle works, it always works, there is no doubt about it. Can you say the same about frontloading? I think not.

Anyway, I'm done with this and I'm sure your pissed now. Oh well.

 

[Zyglamail]

Let them have their own minds, let them stop being sheep and think for themselves. Its ok to have free thinking on this board. And yes you could say people are sheep by following the old tried and true methods and you would certainly be wrong. In this case, those methods have stood the test of time because quite simply, they work. You don't have people wavering about whether or not a flat cycle works, it always works, there is no doubt about it. Can you say the same about frontloading? I think not.

I find it rather ironic that you sit here and preach free thought and call me narrow minded the whole while sitting back and telling people frontloading (or any other idea because its not tried and true) is bunk, the word that comes to mind is hipocritical actually. A flat cycle always works and so does a frontloaded cycle. AFter all they are both cycles in which gear is used, does a frontload work better should be the questions and for some it does, for others it doesnt, but the cycle itself still does work.

Anyway, I'm done with this and I'm sure your pissed now. Oh well.

Haha, dont flatter yourself(since pissing me off seems to be a goal of yours), im not pissed in the least and im sorry if my comments came across that away. We can both let the readers of this thread decide as they will, after all isnt that what you promote? Free thought? In my eyes you no more dispoved frontloading than you apparently feel Andy and I proved it. Hell, even if I could come up with a clinical study showing it worked at this stage of the game I am sure you would discredit it anyway simply because the pro's arent doing it or its not "tried and true". But, each to their own.

 

[Silent Method]

Originally posted by Blkout
And please, stop acting like my opinions are worthless, they are just as vaild as yours or anyone else's for that matter. While I did agree with all of your post, that last little line was immature.

Yes, your opinions have value. So do your "feelings." Big deal, your logic is flawed.

These gentlemen have been giving sound arguments refuting your stance. Your argument seems to be nothing more than "frontloading does not work and everyone knows is, if you think it works your a fool." Calling Zyg narrow-minded in response to his logical series of counters to your unfounded ideas is laughable.

Originally posted by Blkout
I just feel that the gains seen from it are not worth talking about. Its like saying that if I take one extra D-bol a week over my normal cycle then I will get better gains.

This is in no way analog to frontloading, however, I understand your point here. The truth is that frontloading, used correctly, is to reduce time wasted waiting for the effect to kick in.

You compared two cycles, one eight week w/frontloading, and one 10 week wo/front loading, using the same amount of gear. Assume that it takes about two weeks for whatever gear we're using to kick in and reach desired blood levels. That 10 weeker without front loading is comparable to an 8 week cycle with a faster acting gear. Frontloading turns it back into a full 10 weeker.



Now, in the spirit of the title of this thread, I must say that to "kickstart" a cycle does not necessarily mean frontloading. Using a fast acting drug from the start of the cycle will get the job done (assuming that fast acting drug provides the effects you desire). I propose that using a fast acting drug at the start of a cycle to fill in the time gap of a slower acting drug is probably better than frontloading.

BTW, regarding you argument with fronloading, reread Andy13's post #23 of this thread. Then read it again.

 

[Andy13]

People use prop in the beginning because its a faster acting ester not because of frontloading. Prop works well in the beginning of a cycle because the ester itself is actually used by the body almost immediately due the nature of the ester, not because of a higher than normal dosage up front.
.

Could you please clarify what you meant by this? Outline a quick cycle plan that uses prop in the beginning. Let's keep in simple.. Test only cycle.

 

[Andy13]

Sorry to the guy who started this thread... We got a little off track..

I believe that "front-end loading" can be two types.. More on this...

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47800&highlight=front*

 

[scarylarry]

Wow. but back to the question, maybe Ill re word it: What is the purpose of running dbol in the front of a 10wk cycle ,with eq as the base at 500mg/wk, in order to get quicker gains. I have heard that gains in dbol are usally lost after use anyway. so would you be losing the gains made by dbol or would they carry over when the eq starts kicking in.? i

 

[Andy13]

Wow. but back to the question, maybe Ill re word it: What is the purpose of running dbol in the front of a 10wk cycle ,with eq as the base at 500mg/wk, in order to get quicker gains. I have heard that gains in dbol are usally lost after use anyway. so would you be losing the gains made by dbol or would they carry over when the eq starts kicking in.? i

Go to the link I posted above... It's my opinion as well as other's

 

[Ash]

Bump..