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Bodybuilding's best even agrees.......

BiggT

BiggT

New member
I was just at the barber shop getting a haircut and I picked up either STUFF or FHM or some other equally as annoying mag while I was waiting, but regardless it is the new issue with Vida Guererra on the cover.

Anyway, the back has an advice column called "Ask Mr. Olympia with Jay Cutler". One of the topics was 'Puttig on mass'. Cutler said that the majority of a person's size comes from the back and legs and that the most effective way to train them are with deadlifts, free weight barbell rows, and squats. He said something along the lines of those lifts are tough and most gym trainees skip them, which, not coincidentally, is why most gym trainees are small, lol.

I just thought it would be interesting for all the "5x5 is for strength and basic lifts don't build size" 175lb monsters cruising the board to hear it from a bodybuilder.
 
very very few people dare row, much less from a 90 degree angle . .. "too dangerous" . . . "hard on my back" . . . blah blah blah . . . About 90% of it is just forcing yourself to adapt to the movement and build up the core supportive strength to be able to do 'em securely. Seems like most people want to be able to start a lift today, and within an hour have a pump and feel sore or they drop the exercise. Something like squats, rows, deadlifts can take multiple sessions to really develop teh motor skills necessary to do 'em successfully. I've had friends try something once and say "I can't really feel it" and then drop it.
 
The other week a group of 2 or 3 pretty big guys were doing 415 squats for reps I was doing 90 degree bent over barbell rows right near there squat rack and one of the guys was like dude you're gonna fuck up your back doing that. And I thanked him for his advice, and continued on, watching my form and keeping my back arched.

I hadn't realized that there was such a knock on rows?


Protobuilder said:
very very few people dare row, much less from a 90 degree angle . .. "too dangerous" . . . "hard on my back" . . . blah blah blah . . . About 90% of it is just forcing yourself to adapt to the movement and build up the core supportive strength to be able to do 'em securely. QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
Most people do what Madcow refers to as the "airhump maneuver" lol. The sad fact is that BB rows are the most misperformed exercise on the planet (save for maybe back squats being butchered with 1/10th reps).

When people stray too far from 90 degrees, they de-activate the lats, which in turn turns the exercise into a shrug....and a jump shrug given most peopl's form on rows.....they would be beter served by putting some real weight on the bar and just jump shrugging.
 
People are scared to death of them. maybe even more so than deadlifts, although it's a toss up between the 2. I think it's b/c people think they must stand in the SLDL position and then row, which is pretty stressful on the back. Or else they just don't want to put forth the serious hamstring/hip effort that's required to really lock in a strong position when rowing heavy weight. Strange thing: my back never feels the least bit tweaked from doing heavy rows. In fact, it feels pretty damn solid when I'm rowing b/c my hams and glutes fire like crazy and I deweight the bar each rep. No worries. Rowing and squats are my favorite exercises. :rainbow:
 
I will say, I am rarely injured, and aside from a few minor tweaks and dings here and there over the past 14 years, I've never been seriously hurt and out of comission from lifting-related injuries. And I squat multiple times a week ATF with a high % of 1rm.....I pull from the floor multiple times a week, I BB row, I SLDL, I do BEHIND THE NECK overhead work, lol.

Lifting-related injuried among powerlifters, throwers, olympic lifters, sprinters, and strongmen who train so-called "dangerous" lifts heavy and frequently are also VERY uncommon,

NOW....all of the "Joe gym goers" who spend all their time on Hammer STrength machines, Universal machines, and Cybex set-ups and don't row, deadlift, squat, or free weight OHP because it is "too dangerous" are ALWAYS complaining of knee, back, neck, shoulder, ass ,ball, everything, lol injuries.
 
Well here is my question for BB Rows, I am still learning them. Is it an over handed grip or underhanded or does it matter? And is it suppost to come all the way to your belly button to touch? I de-weight it every rep but I really haven't found any good videos of BB rows, every is throwing themselves up and then pull their body TO the bar instead of pulling the bar towards themselves.
 
Goose....if you know throwing your body to the bar on rows is incorrect, then I imagine you have a pretty good handle on how to do them. Pull the bar to the body and touch. Grip isn't a big factor, I prefer double over with straps, and it is probably a bit less risky in the biceps injury department, but lots of folks do well with under hand rows though.
 
Alright, I was just curious about the touch because I seemed have trouble finishing the last part of the lift. Now I know I just need to lower my weights down a bit to do the complete movement.

Oh I forgot to add. Does that mean after all the gym guys read this, they will squat, put the bar down and do curls? I see super sets of this in the future at a gym near you.
 
BiggT said:
I was just at the barber shop getting a haircut and I picked up either STUFF or FHM or some other equally as annoying mag while I was waiting, but regardless it is the new issue with Vida Guererra on the cover.

Anyway, the back has an advice column called "Ask Mr. Olympia with Jay Cutler". One of the topics was 'Puttig on mass'. Cutler said that the majority of a person's size comes from the back and legs and that the most effective way to train them are with deadlifts, free weight barbell rows, and squats. He said something along the lines of those lifts are tough and most gym trainees skip them, which, not coincidentally, is why most gym trainees are small, lol.

I just thought it would be interesting for all the "5x5 is for strength and basic lifts don't build size" 175lb monsters cruising the board to hear it from a bodybuilder.
Click to expand...
Another excellent post!
Appreciate ALL the good advice you give on this site. Always helpful.
Thanks
 
Rabid_Goose said:
Well here is my question for BB Rows, I am still learning them. Is it an over handed grip or underhanded or does it matter? And is it suppost to come all the way to your belly button to touch? I de-weight it every rep but I really haven't found any good videos of BB rows, every is throwing themselves up and then pull their body TO the bar instead of pulling the bar towards themselves.
Click to expand...

Supposedly where u bring the bar too, whether it be closer to your rib cage or closer to your belly button will train ur lats slightly differently, so a little variety can't hurt. I try to bring it right in the middle of the two. But don't take my word for it cuz I'm just beginning to learn how to train right.

As for how everybody does it, everybody must be doing it wrong because of using too much weight.

There was a thread a couple weeks back about good row youtube videos and the consensus was that at heavy weights u will see some form compromise, its to be expected, but not to the extent u describe.
 
I'll have to search for it when I get back, and even if you are new, any advice is appreciated. I'm new too it also, I still have my BB Row Form and DL'ing form to perfect, I think my squat form after several times it down pact. I'll be going to a friends gym here in a few weeks and he has a video camera. Hopefully in about 2-3 weeks I'll have a video of all my forms up for critque.
 
ronnie's been saying that for years, dont nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight. But the lil' tbol and celltech monsters who live on the internet still don't want to lift heavy in case they get too blocky
 
Hrmm...thought you guys were talking about the Bronco's QB for a min and I was thinking, who cares what a QB has to say about bodybuilding?
 
Protobuilder said:
I'm nobody, you know, but I like a little more bar speed and more of an explosive row. Slowest part should be off the floor, with the bar accelerating into the abdomen as you get to your strongest range of motion (the final squeeze).
Click to expand...
haha, shut up man... you know what your talking about even if ur non-plat.

Agreed Proto, i'm an advocate of explosiveness and acceleration for sure.

This may be a better example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvWeC2dXRsA

The other one was damn strict, impressive I thought for the weight... still waiting on the Bigg guy youtube vids to appear :)
 
BiggT said:
I will say, I am rarely injured, and aside from a few minor tweaks and dings here and there over the past 14 years, I've never been seriously hurt and out of comission from lifting-related injuries. And I squat multiple times a week ATF with a high % of 1rm.....I pull from the floor multiple times a week, I BB row, I SLDL, I do BEHIND THE NECK overhead work, lol.

Lifting-related injuried among powerlifters, throwers, olympic lifters, sprinters, and strongmen who train so-called "dangerous" lifts heavy and frequently are also VERY uncommon,

NOW....all of the "Joe gym goers" who spend all their time on Hammer STrength machines, Universal machines, and Cybex set-ups and don't row, deadlift, squat, or free weight OHP because it is "too dangerous" are ALWAYS complaining of knee, back, neck, shoulder, ass ,ball, everything, lol injuries.
Click to expand...
bro....i could not agree more with you. aftre i had my knee surgeries my docs told me to use more smith machine work and hammer strenght at the gym....since then i've had a shoulder surgery and an now getting cortizone shots in my back due to degenerative discs and herniated discs. wish i would have known about this board years ago...or had different docs
 
I like that second vid a lot, sarge. That's more how I do 'em, although I probably get more hip and torso humping going on. LoL

It's strange but true: guys who've trained hard w/ freeweights for a year or so "tend" to not get a lot of aches and pains other than from overuse (tendonitis) or heavy PR attempts. Their backs don't go out while they're loading groceries into teh car or hauling around lumber.
 
Protobuilder said:
I like that second vid a lot, sarge. That's more how I do 'em, although I probably get more hip and torso humping going on. LoL

It's strange but true: guys who've trained hard w/ freeweights for a year or so "tend" to not get a lot of aches and pains other than from overuse (tendonitis) or heavy PR attempts. Their backs don't go out while they're loading groceries into teh car or hauling around lumber.
Click to expand...

I agree, a few days ago my coach was telling a new starter how weightlifters very rarely have back problems because of all the pulling from the floor, yet people wont deadlift because they think its dangerous. I had constant back niggles my whole life from playing sport, since i started lifting ive had no problems at all!
 
Ok, I have always rowed at 45 degree, I will try to do the 90. question though, why put the weight down and rest after every rep??????
 
Hey guys, i used to do pendlays but switched to just bent over cause i had my upper back rounded and thought i will fuck up my upper back !? Is it safe for the upper back if upper back is lil pit bent when starting the lift ?


Thanks
 
sgtslaughter said:
haha, shut up man... you know what your talking about even if ur non-plat.

Agreed Proto, i'm an advocate of explosiveness and acceleration for sure.

This may be a better example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvWeC2dXRsA

The other one was damn strict, impressive I thought for the weight... still waiting on the Bigg guy youtube vids to appear :)
Click to expand...
notice who made the 4th comment.... someone we know quite well :p
 
Czar87 said:
Hey guys, i used to do pendlays but switched to just bent over cause i had my upper back rounded and thought i will fuck up my upper back !? Is it safe for the upper back if upper back is lil pit bent when starting the lift ?


Thanks
Click to expand...
body thrust is an important part of strength training. when you can get your entire structure involved, it's more effective.
 
I'm not so sure about increasing speed on the way up. This will generate momentum and actually give the back a bit of a break at the top where the muscles are weakest (at a mechanical disadvantage). Even so, I guess no-one really means that the weight should be thrown up to the abdomen.

The back is a very complicated structure and I defy most people to tell me exactly what each muscle does in the back and what position the arms are in when the lats are firing most. Perhaps that explains in part why people are scared of back movements- because the back complex is not understood.
 
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Twoguns said:
Thanks for the link. I am going to try 90 degrees next tues on back day.I was trying to determing why we do lat pulldowns the way we do given the 90 argument for rowing. I guess it is just to hit lats at different angle? correct? simulate pullups?
Click to expand...
No problem.

Try them next tuesday? If that means you're just going to do them once, don't bother. Use them for 8 weeks and tell me how much thicker your back looks.

Lat pulldowns... they're not needed really. simulate pullups?... only if your doing your bodyweight to get enough stimulus. I'm sure they provide some degree of "workload" to the lat muscles that pulling other ways can't but for overall growth; Rows and deads are irreplaceable.

It all comes down to your goals and what you really want. But who doesn't want to get bigger and thicker at some point.
 
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