Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Just a quick question for anyone that might be able to help me out. I've been lifting for 5 years on and off, but never been able to make any gains in my arms, and they often limit my max's in back and chest movements. Im just about to start the 5x5 routine and was wondering how to best incorperate some light arm exercises into it to try and make some gains there during the next 2 months.
Bi's & Tri's and 5x5
- Thread starter georgian
- Start date
You should search Tate Presses if they are specifically holding back your bench. You might find these very effective. www.elitefts.com likely has something on them (i.e. Dave Tate) but google will likely also serve. Tate presses are still a semi-isolation exercise, I'd avoid a compound press especially if they are your weak point.
Your arms will take a hammering from all the pressing and rows anyway so just be very careful with what you add - if they are your weak links, they are in for a brutal beating. Barbell curls are always a good option for bis, dumbells if you prefer - it won't matter much. Friday is probably a good option since you have 2 days of rest and then your bench/row is the pyramid for monday so not as stressful as a constant set day. You could also do a total of 4 sets with 2 on Monday and 2 on Friday. Don't be doing complete arm workouts twice a week with this thing.
Your arms will take a hammering from all the pressing and rows anyway so just be very careful with what you add - if they are your weak links, they are in for a brutal beating. Barbell curls are always a good option for bis, dumbells if you prefer - it won't matter much. Friday is probably a good option since you have 2 days of rest and then your bench/row is the pyramid for monday so not as stressful as a constant set day. You could also do a total of 4 sets with 2 on Monday and 2 on Friday. Don't be doing complete arm workouts twice a week with this thing.
Deads are normal.
There is no defined rest period. Take what you need. If the weight is light and you can use shorter rest intervals without compromising yourself, do it. If each set is grueling and heavy, taken time. I'd be very hesitant to take more than 5 minutes though. I can possibly see this on the last set of a heavy compound lift on the record weeks but even then I'm talking about much closer to 5 minutes than 10 minutes.
Figuring that a percentage system for lifts week to week can be difficult to transfer among lifters especially when there is a broad range of experience, setting everyone's rest periods is a bit much to ask so I place both of these on the trainee and his discretion.
There is no defined rest period. Take what you need. If the weight is light and you can use shorter rest intervals without compromising yourself, do it. If each set is grueling and heavy, taken time. I'd be very hesitant to take more than 5 minutes though. I can possibly see this on the last set of a heavy compound lift on the record weeks but even then I'm talking about much closer to 5 minutes than 10 minutes.
Figuring that a percentage system for lifts week to week can be difficult to transfer among lifters especially when there is a broad range of experience, setting everyone's rest periods is a bit much to ask so I place both of these on the trainee and his discretion.
Synpax
Well-known member
The rest period for the 5x5 is 2-5 minutes.
The rest period for the 2x10 is 30 seconds to 1 minute.
It works well for arms. Remember what to do when you plateu - keep increasing the weight and go at 5x3. Then after a few sessions of increases drop back down to your problem area and go back to 5x5 and you should blast through it.
I don't use the 'week' method. It makes no sense to hamstring yourself by the stupid calandar. Right now I am on a 4 day cycle and soon it may be a 3 day cycle.
My 5x5 for tris is the weighted dips followed by lying db extensions and rope pulldown for 2x10 (get that rope TAUGHT).
My 5x5 for bi is EZ bar curls (pinky above so bis are targeted) with 2x10 hammer curls and 2x10 Synpax curls (one db at a time, using a preacher curl in reverse so your arm hangs straight down).
The rest period for the 2x10 is 30 seconds to 1 minute.
It works well for arms. Remember what to do when you plateu - keep increasing the weight and go at 5x3. Then after a few sessions of increases drop back down to your problem area and go back to 5x5 and you should blast through it.
I don't use the 'week' method. It makes no sense to hamstring yourself by the stupid calandar. Right now I am on a 4 day cycle and soon it may be a 3 day cycle.
My 5x5 for tris is the weighted dips followed by lying db extensions and rope pulldown for 2x10 (get that rope TAUGHT).
My 5x5 for bi is EZ bar curls (pinky above so bis are targeted) with 2x10 hammer curls and 2x10 Synpax curls (one db at a time, using a preacher curl in reverse so your arm hangs straight down).
Synpax said:
2 totally different workouts have the name 5x5 on this site.
Your post refers to Needsize's 5x5
Mine refers to a version of the famous Bill Starr 5x5 workout that's been in use since the 1970's. It's described in this thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215
I'm thinking since the Bill Starr one doesn't explicitly include arms he means that one but he'll have to clarify.
Synpax
Well-known member
Needsize posts on this board, Bill Starr does not, so when he says 5x5 that's what the proper interpretation should be.
The rest rest periods are based on the goals of the exercise and STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING text from the NASM. 2-5 for hypotrophy/strength, 30 seconds - 1 minute for muscle endurance.
The rest rest periods are based on the goals of the exercise and STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING text from the NASM. 2-5 for hypotrophy/strength, 30 seconds - 1 minute for muscle endurance.
In the world outside Elite Fitness, Bill Starr is one of the most famous strength coaches to have walked the earth. We are talking someone who coached multiple pro teams, served as the strength coach for multiple universities, held OL and PL records. His stuff has been published over a span of decades everywhere from Ironman to Milo to his own book Only the Strong Shall Survive. You walk into any strength complex in the country and say 5x5 and people think Bill Starr. Plus, the majority of the posts that have 5x5 on them right now in this forum as well as elsewhere largely relate to workouts based off Starr's because that's what has been popular here as of late. Not meaning any disrespect to Needsize but there is simply confusion on this board because 2 programs share the same name, I don't think anyone here realized that the name '5x5' was already famous outside of bodybuilding and had been in use for a few decades.
All that said, this is a common quesiton I answer 3 times per week on the Starr program here (and everybody calls it 5x5 too so it only gets more confusing) simply because arms are not listed in the routine and people freak out when they first see it (and there's plenty of people who didn't opt to include them on here who's arms grew anyway from all the pressing and pulling). Given that I've made comments about including them if they are a limiting factor in a compound lift and have never been explicit about fixed rest intervals the case becomes fairly compelling that he's not talking about Needsize's program.
All that said, this is a common quesiton I answer 3 times per week on the Starr program here (and everybody calls it 5x5 too so it only gets more confusing) simply because arms are not listed in the routine and people freak out when they first see it (and there's plenty of people who didn't opt to include them on here who's arms grew anyway from all the pressing and pulling). Given that I've made comments about including them if they are a limiting factor in a compound lift and have never been explicit about fixed rest intervals the case becomes fairly compelling that he's not talking about Needsize's program.
it is kind of confusing that both programs have the same name
for what its worth, when my version was designed, I had never heard of the original version, at least not consciously. It was just a program designed to incorporate both mass and size gains into the same cycle, kind of a hybrid of a lot of other routines I had read. The routine has worked wonders for my size and strength over the years, transformed my physique pretty much....
But that being said, Bill Stars is the original, and I would never presume that my routine is better than his, hell, he is Bill Star. In my own experience, I felt that my version was a little better suited for bodybuilding purposes, but thats just my opinion. But I would also suggest to anyone who hasnt tried it, to give Star's a try as it has earned its reputation. And madcow really seems to know his stuff, especially around that routine
It would probably be easier to refer to them as 5x5, and needsize's 5x5 to avoid confusion
for what its worth, when my version was designed, I had never heard of the original version, at least not consciously. It was just a program designed to incorporate both mass and size gains into the same cycle, kind of a hybrid of a lot of other routines I had read. The routine has worked wonders for my size and strength over the years, transformed my physique pretty much....
But that being said, Bill Stars is the original, and I would never presume that my routine is better than his, hell, he is Bill Star. In my own experience, I felt that my version was a little better suited for bodybuilding purposes, but thats just my opinion. But I would also suggest to anyone who hasnt tried it, to give Star's a try as it has earned its reputation. And madcow really seems to know his stuff, especially around that routine
It would probably be easier to refer to them as 5x5, and needsize's 5x5 to avoid confusion
blut wump
New member
I think we're pretty much stuck with this naming issue. Needsize's program has been popular and for some here it's the 5x5 meant whenever anyone mentions 5x5. The Starr one is known on here as 'Madcow's 5x5', occasionally to his chagrin, so we can live with 'Needsize's 5x5'.
We just have to remember that out in the rest of the world when someone mentions a 5x5 program that they are probably referring to Bill Starr.
We just have to remember that out in the rest of the world when someone mentions a 5x5 program that they are probably referring to Bill Starr.
The main issue is that nobody really names this stuff and it's just a combo of sets and reps (5x5 is fairly common too and just a solid plain vanilla scheme - plenty of other similar programs out there using 5 sets of 5 in some way, shape or form). It's pretty important to attribute the name of the person just because setsxreps is so generic. Even two people experienced with Korte's 3x3 program will take a minute to make sure they are both talking about the same thing when someone says "3x3". Starr's has just seen a lot of use over the years but it's equally guilty of being confusing - I say 'it' because I doubt Starr ever named this program himself, it's just a generic template he used. I doubt he was the first person to ever have someone lift for 5x5 so it's not exactly his monopoly either although as with all things associative, if one is to name a default his is probably it just due to the program's continued influence over many years and it still being widely used today. I think the main issue lies in that people aren't creative in providing unique names and we all enjoy shortening proper names to get to the point quickly. Hence - we deal with confusion especially over internet forum where communication is a challenge to say the least.
LOL - The funny thing is, I can imagine Flex magazine or some such naming a workout like that. You should push it their way, it's probably been decade since they published anything even remotely decent on training. You already have the snappy name but I fear they'll probably make you come up with an all cables and Hammer Strength version.
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