Best AI/Anti E & dosages

[hannes joubert]

Hi All, this relates to my other post regarding my TRT, but I would like to get focussed replies to this question as I asked so many other questions in that post as well.

I am currently doing TRT with 300mg Test E with 250iu hCG week, but would like to add an AI/Anti E to the TRT regimine as well.

First off, is adding this a good idea? If so, which should I do, AI or Anit E (or are they the same thing?)

What could you recommend to take and at what dosages, frequency? (260lb's, 5'11" 28% b/f, with the TRT schedule above?)

Thanks to all in advance

Cheers

H

 

[Zyglamail]

Whats you current E levels at? That will determine how much, if any anti_e is needed.

 

[Older Guy]

For the record....you are on a cycle not TRT As for the AI, take Arimidex.....I'm guessing your estradiol levels are through the roof taking that much Test. Definitely get your labs done ASAP. General rule with Arimidex for TRT is 1mg. Arimidex per week per 100mg of Test. So in your case 3mg/wk spread out.......use a pill cutter or get the liquid version.

You are definitely not on TRT Bro.......100-150/wk is TRT dosages. AND you better get on the AI or you are going to start to feel like shit, fast!
Labs....get em done! Please post your results.

 

[Zyglamail]

You are definitely not on TRT Bro.......100-150/wk is TRT dosages.

Not true at all. You will find many many guys here on more than 150mg/wk. For many 150mg/wk wont even get you mid range on labs.

The whole point of TRT for many is to overcome the mental side effects of low T and this for many takes doses more than 200mg/wk.

Your typical gen practitioner or endo treats the numbers and not the symptoms. A HRT/TRT specialist treats for symptoms and doesnt care about the lab numbers of your total and free T. They know that many people in good health with good labs who exercise regularly, avoid alcohol and eat a clean diet can take as much as 400mg/wk and still have very healthy lab results.

 

[Older Guy]

I think this guy's problem is high E which is nullifying the effect of the Test. Let's see some labs and then we can make a better call. My guess is once he gets his E in check, he wil not only feel a lot better but also need less Test. He is taking a lot of HCG as well......why so much? I personally take 25iu every other day (same day as my Test shot) Both done sub q.

 

[Zyglamail]

How does high E nullify the effect of test? E can be created in adipose tissue and one of the reasons people with low test retain fat. Since low test means low E from aromatization the body tries to elevate E by retaining more fat. E is not the enemy, a high E to low test ratio is which is often the case in folks with low test.

Now high SHBG can bind to T thereby lowering the free T so less is available to bind to the receptor and often times folks who dont respond to AAS well have high SHBG.

250IU hcg isnt high at all, one of the best known and most well respected TRT docs recommends 2x 250IU weekly injections in conjunction with TRT, 1 inj taken 2 days before and then 1 inj the day before a test injection. The timing is to help give a natty test boost just before the test kicks in.

 

[Older Guy]

[FONT=&quot]There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.

The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless. When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and you get the effect you're looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so nothing happens.

This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you have, it isn't helping you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to go. Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to activate.

It can even get worse... because high levels of estradiol can cause the downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so you'll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your body to upregulate again and this takes time.

The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man[/FONT]

 

[Older Guy]

Regarding the HCG....I made a mistake my apologies. I take 250iu every other day so just under 900iu/wk
This guy apparently should be using more HCG IMO.........whether it's Crisler or other TRT Docs recommending, it seems too low.

*If one has a 10,000 IU vial of HCG, and one adds 10 cc of bacteriostatic water, then one will get 1,000 IU per 1 ml solution. The insulin syringes can be marked for 100 U per 1 ml syringe.

Getting 250 IU then would require using a volume of 0.25 ml or 25 IU.

​

 

[Zyglamail]

Sorry, I dont consider a t-nation forum post as gospel in regards to receptors and hormone binding. Spend some time on medline researching the androgen receptor (ie NR3C4) and the estrogen receptor (ie ER and GPER). While ER{alpha}has been shown to mediate carcinoma, ERß has shown to be involved in the suppression of prostatic malignancy. Testosterone has also been shown to promote cancer. Its not as simple as Test is good and Estrogen is bad.

Regarding the hcg....I made a mistake my apologies. I take 250iu every other day so just under 900iu/wk
This guy apparently should be using more hcg IMO.........whether it's Crisler or other TRT Docs recommending, it seems too low.

*If one has a 10,000 IU vial of hcg, and one adds 10 cc of bacteriostatic water, then one will get 1,000 IU per 1 ml solution. The insulin syringes can be marked for 100 U per 1 ml syringe.

Getting 250 IU then would require using a volume of 0.25 ml or 25 IU.

HCG during trt is not required. Many docs who treat for lab numbers dont prescribe it at all. Its usually only TRT docs that prescribe it. As for the dosage I dont think 900IU a week is going to hurt but I also dont think its needed. Crislers recommended doses and dosing plan are based on a single test injection 1x a week and the 2x days of HCG give a natural boost in T just as the previous exo dose of T is fading resulting in a fairly steady level of T in the system. taking HCG every other day is not going to give the same effect where the goal is to maintain fairly consistent blood levels of T but likely will give you more of a natural test kick than 2x 250IU hcg applications which may allow you to get by with less exo test. That will be subject to the individual however, some guys with low test even when being prodded by HCG wont produce significant amounts of additional test and where the blood work comes into play.

 

[Older Guy]

From personal experience and my personal labs test I can definitively say that when I started the AI I felt better. I went 8 months on Test alone and my monthly labs were showing progressively higher E levels. I began to feel sluggish, libido wasn't as good and my sleep was affected negatively. Since adding arimidex as doses I described, everything is much better and my E levels are back to what many consider to be the "sweet spot"

The HCG did not have any miraculous affect on me aside from bringing some plump back to the fellas. I know Crisler says many of his patients feel better (for unknown) reasons when they start HCG but I can't say that was the case for me. Esthetically, I like having normal size testicles. AND I treat the HCG as insurance since many Docs are prescribing it, there provably is something good about it.

Crisler's 2 times a week injections (again from personal experience) cause my Test levels to fluctuate too much....every other day and sub Q works better for me and a lot of others on TRT.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that you should treat the symptoms and not the lab results/tests.