Benchpres. Lats v. Chest.

[Twitched]

I'm having an argument over here.


I swear lats and tris are the two key muscle groups for power in benchpress.


My buddy says chest.



For me it is 90% lats when I train for power.


What do you guys think?

I spread and flex my lats, balance the weight on them, then explode somewhat with my delts at the bottom and push out with my tris, all while pushing with my lats.

 

[HighIntensity]

sorry bro, for decline press I would say lats are key but not in bench press.

Bpress = tris, chest and abs

I know this because my lats are the strongest part on my body and yet my Bpress is lagging in comparison...

funny thing is on decline Bpress I can get in the mid 300 range

 

[CytoMel]

You are right your friend is wrong. LATS are
more key than chest.

Note on chest: The chest should automaticly build itself up with a lot of bench pressing and you dont need dumbell flyes to build big pecs.

 

[Hannibal]

I swear lats and tris are the two key muscle groups for power in benchpress.

Well I dont know what the bet was for...but YOU WIN!

Tell your friend to try this.....grab an imaginary bar like it is just off your chest. Now flex his lats forward....your hands move right?

Now do the same thing...except flex your Pecs instead....nothing happens

Pecs are for the beach....Tris Lats and Delts are for bench

 

[spatts]

Re: Re: Benchpres. Lats v. Chest.

Well I dont know what the bet was for...but YOU WIN!

Tell your friend to try this.....grab an imaginary bar like it is just off your chest. Now flex his lats forward....your hands move right?

Now do the same thing...except flex your Pecs instead....nothing happens

Pecs are for the beach....Tris Lats and Delts are for bench

Amen, brutha...

Dave Tate:

12 Steps to a Bigger Bench

1 – Train the Triceps

Years ago, if you had asked Larry Pacifico how to get a big bench, he'd have told you to train the triceps. This same advice applies today. This doesn't mean doing set after set of pushdowns, kickbacks, and other so-called "shaping" exercises. Training your triceps for a big bench has to involve heavy extensions and close-grip pressing movements such as close-grip flat and incline bench presses, close-grip board presses, and JM presses.

Various barbell and dumbbell extensions should also be staples of your training program. Don't let anyone try to tell you the bench press is about pec strength. These people don't know the correct way to bench and are setting you up for a short pressing career with sub-par weights. I just read an article in one of the major muscle magazines by one of these authors on how to increase your bench press. The advice given was to train your pecs with crossovers and flies and your bench will go up! This, along with many other points, made me wonder how this article ever got published or better yet, how much the author himself could bench.

12 – Train the lats on the same plane as the bench.

I'm talking about the horizontal plane here. In other words, you must perform rows, rows, and more rows. "If you want to bench big then you need to train the lats." I've heard both George Hilbert and Kenny Patterson say this for years when asked about increasing the bench press. When you bench you're on a horizontal plane. So would it make sense from a balance perspective to train the lats with pulldowns, which are on a vertical plane? Nope. Stick to the barbell row if you want a big bench.

Read more at: http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_115b600.html

 

[Twitched]

Thanks :->. I'd be willing to bet anyone who can bench twice their weight will agree that lats rule here.

 

[spatts]

When I started training with Hnnibal 2 months ago, he fixed my bench form. I was stuck at 95 pounds for 6 months, because my shoulder would flare up when I benched. I was trying to bench with my pecs and shoulders. Now, 8 weeks later, I'm right around 175 pounds for bench. I had strong lats, but my brain had not made the connection to engage them in the movement. Once I focused that in, it worked. My tris were weak because I could never work them due to shoulder pain. Now that my bench style doesn't cause me shoulder pain, my tris are coming along nicely, and further assisting my bench. It's cyclical.

 

[NFG123]

I can't believe I am reading this from such an educated group of bodybuilders!

Will someone be willing to say quote, unquote "lats devote more power to the bench press than the pecs" I don't think anyone will, biochemically, this is ridiculous!

Your chest is the major muscle group involved in the lift, you need to build a bigger bench by training the lats, delts and triceps sure ... but those are secondary muscles involved in the lift, and are often the weaker ones holding up your PECS from doing the majority of the work.

Sure the difference between a GOOD powerlifter and a GREAT powerlift maybe his technique, some of which is the ulitization of lat strength, but for damn sure, you dont use your lats to bench more than your chest ... that is ridiculous!

NFG

 

[Twitched]

Same here. My bench sucked but my lats were wide as hell. As soon as I incorporated them as the primary bearer of the weight, I had no problem dramatically increasing it.


I think most people simply do not know HOW to flex their lats. and the natural benchpressers instinctively do it.

 

[Hannibal]

I can't believe I am reading this from such an educated group of bodybuilders!

Will someone be willing to say quote, unquote "lats devote more power to the bench press than the pecs" I don't think anyone will, biochemically, this is ridiculous!

Your chest is the major muscle group involved in the lift, you need to build a bigger bench by training the lats, delts and triceps sure ... but those are secondary muscles involved in the lift, and are often the weaker ones holding up your PECS from doing the majority of the work.

Sure the difference between a GOOD powerlifter and a GREAT powerlift maybe his technique, some of which is the ulitization of lat strength, but for damn sure, you dont use your lats to bench more than your chest ... that is ridiculous!

NFG

I refuse to flame someone on this board....but YOU ARE WRONG plain and simple.

George Halbert benched 733lbs @ 215lb bodyweight...I wonder when the last time he did some "cable crossovers"...or some "flyes".

WSB...is the strongest gym in the country...and there is NO pec dec. No crossover machine...but they do a shitload of lat work.

 

[spatts]

I can't believe I am reading this from such an educated group of bodybuilders!

Bodybuilders...Blasphemy.

I have an article on IGF use/breakdown in bench effort from the Journal of Applied Physiology to back my claim.

The last major study done on this was by Barnet in 1995, and he later admited that the only reason more energy was produced by the pecs was becuse it was a larger muscle. Sure you use your chest when you bench. The way MOST people bench, it's MOSTLY pec, like you said. The way a PL benches, it's not. We can't help it that most people bench wrong.

Oh, and I think you mean "biomechanically."

 

[Twitched]

He thinks I'm an idiot for thinking that lats are doing the work when they are not "biomechanically designed" to do that work, whereas chest is (or so he feels). - shrug -

 

[spatts]

We're talking about a college kid, that's in to BB...what are the chances that he's benching correctly? In his gym...in his world, they probably DO bench with their pecs and shoulders. I see 99% of the guys at the "gym" doing it that way.

Hey, he uses optimum 100% whey, thinks MuscleTech sucks, and listens to RATM...cut him some slack.

 

[spatts]

From Dave Tate's 12 Step Program:

You see, I train at Westside Barbell, which is renowned for producing world-caliber strength athletes. I've been a part of this group since 1990. Before that, I had spent five years stuck at a 1955 pound total in powerlifting. Then I tore my right pectoralis major tendon while trying to bench 500 at a bench press competition. I figured that was the end of competition days and thought about retiring from the sport. Then I thought to myself, retire from what? I haven't done anything yet!


I knew I had two options: I could keep training the way I always had and totally fall apart, or I could move to Columbus to train under the watchful eye of Louie Simmons. It wasn't that difficult of a decision. After the surgery I packed the car and moved to Columbus. That was over 10 years ago. Since then, my lifts have increased to a 935-pound squat, 585-pound bench and a 740-pound deadlift. This was after my surgeon told me I'd never bench over 400 again!

 

[b fold the truth]

I'd say Hannibal is so full of crap that he can barely walk with stilts on...but he is right. It doesn't make sense...but it is correct.

I thought that I knew how to bench press...and I was wrong for a very long time. The bench press uses very little chest at all...very little.

Gonna break out the popcorn and watch this one unfold...lol

B True

 

[Screwball]

If you are benching like a bodybuilder (i.e. elbows out at 90 degrees to the body and bar touching at the upper chest) then I believe that you are using the chest to a much greater degree. However, if you are using proper benching technique for maximum weight like a powerlifter ( i.e. elbows tucked, shoulder blades pinched, low on the chest or the upper abs, etc...) then your lats and upper back are used to a greater degree then the chest. If you can't learn how to use your back muscles when benching then you will never maximize your strength. Big lats and big upper back muscles equals a big bench.

 

[Hannibal]

I thought that I knew how to bench press...and I was wrong for a very long time. The bench press uses very little chest at all...very little.

DAVE TATE QUOTE:

"First, most powerlifters do very little chest work while bodybuilders do a ton of chest work. If bench press poundage equated to chest strength, then the powerlifters would be weak off the chest and bodybuilders would be weak at the top. "

http://www.testosterone.net/articles/180press.html

 

[spatts]

If you are benching like a bodybuilder (i.e. elbows out at 90 degrees to the body and bar touching at the upper chest) then I believe that you are using the chest to a much greater degree. However, if you are using proper benching technique for maximum weight like a powerlifter ( i.e. elbows tucked, shoulder blades pinched, low on the chest or the upper abs, etc...) then your lats and upper back are used to a greater degree then the chest. If you can't learn how to use your back muscles when benching then you will never maximize your strength. Big lats and big upper back muscles equals a big bench.

Exactly...

This is why the guys at the gym are struggling to eek out 225-315, and improve SO slowly. They will NEVER know what they're capable of. There's a group of very dedicated "bodybuilders" at my gym that struggle through 225, and think 315 is a big deal. 315 is my December goal, and I'm a 180 pound woman. They should be able to bench TWICE what I do, but they bench like bodybuilders.

 

[b fold the truth]

I urge everyone not to debate with Hannibal. Notice that he rarely ever gives his opinion...he presents facts. Hannibal is one strong man himself too...hard to argue with him.

Wait...wait...someone please do argue with Hannibal...but it will be a short lived battle...

B True

 

[Hannibal]

I urge everyone not to debate with Hannibal. Notice that he rarely ever gives his opinion...he presents facts. Hannibal is one strong man himself too...hard to argue with him.

Wait...wait...someone please do argue with Hannibal...but it will be a short lived battle...

B True

Actually truth be told I am a weak little bitch...my mind is much stronger than my body at this point...but the body is catching up.

 

[b fold the truth]

Actually truth be told I am a weak little bitch...my mind is much stronger than my body at this point...but the body is catching up.

Better to argue with me than with Spatts....you wouldnt like her when she's angry. Besides she is NEVER WRONG!!!

LOL...LOLOLOLOLOL...hahah

You should have heard me explain to Night Fly why I was never wrong.

NF: B True...are you EVER wrong?

B True: Well, as long as I can continue to argue my point...I am not wrong.

Lats rule.

I can't figure it out...but I do know that as my lats get stronger...my bench goes up. As I neglect direct lat training...my bench goes down.

As I try to increase my overhead pressing strength...I try to do more chinning. Is this correct?

B True

 

[spatts]

 

[Hannibal]

QUOTE FROM THE MAD MONK HIMSELF...LOUIE SIMMONS

"The triceps are the most important muscle; do extensions. The lats are next in importance. They are responsible for placing the bar correctly on the chest. Over developed pecs take over the role of stabilizing the bar, thus resulting in more muscle tears. There is a need for some pec strength, but the lats and triceps must be the strongest. If your elbows turn out when you bench, placing most of the stress on the pecs, your lats are being removed from the lift and a minimax, or sticking point, occurs. This is where you miss the lift or a pec injury occurs. "


http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls27.htm

 

[brianmincher]

The triceps are of first importance then lats, then front delts, then side and rear delts for stabilization, then abs so your upper stomach will be big (so as to give the bar someplace to stop) then and only then, you need some pec strength. IN THAT ORDER!!!

What do pecs do? When flexed they bring your hands closer together over your chest (assuming you are on a bench). Proper bench form involves trying to pull your hands farther apart. Anyone remember Louie Simmons talking about trying to tear the bar apart???

When that bar hits your upper abs (note I did not say chest) you drop your head, explode the bar up by flexing the lats/upper back, to properly utilize your shirt's built up tension, then try like a bastard to pull your hands away from each other while driving your body through the bench. Pecs, at best stabilize the bar. At best. If I pinch my shoulder blades together, and put my shoulder joints as close to the bench as possible, and take a competition grip, there is no work for my pecs to do. Simple as that.

Just had to chime in on this discussion.

B.

 

[cal]

you guys are like...jesus freaks...

you just repeat whatever it is that you take as gospel...
in your case..."louie simmons"

if he says...it must be true...and of course ...no one else has done it.

i guess everyone on this board has never heard of past champs that lifted as much as the modern guys with no shirts...and "pyradized" powerlifting...but oh...that is so unscientific...

kaz, rick weil, larr pacifico, ed coan, kirk karwoski, jim williams...paul dicks, mike mcdonald, gene bell.

but chalk it up to genetics...ther heart, training, and dedication had nothing to do with it...louie is just so much more scientific...

 

[Screwball]

Training evolves. As new training techniques are discovered and perfected, totals become larger. The Westside guys are posting some of the largest numbers in history. How can you argue that???
Westside is not the only way but those that use it and benefit from the training are going to "push" it at every opportunity. Just as you would recommend things that work for you. Don't be a hater! If you don't have something positive and constructive to say then keep it to yourself.

 

[b fold the truth]

Can I be a Jesus Freak too? What about a Louie Freak? Didn't the Newsboys sing that song "Jesus Freak".

I got it...the Westside Boys sing..."Louie Freak"...lol.

There is probably a reason why they/we are sold on this...we have done it.

I seem to remember reading a bood I have by Kaz about the bench press and emphasizes the triceps, lats, and bic brach. Do you really think that Garry Frank believes that the lats are not important? I KNOW that he believes that they are very important.

If you want to talk about the past champs...do you include when they used to use bed sheets for elbow wraps on the bench press? What about when they would tie tennis balls behind their knees and in the crooks of their elbows?

I think that Louie and the WSB guys can stand on their own...their training methods are scientifically and productively backed.

B True

 

[Hannibal]

you guys are like...jesus freaks...

you just repeat whatever it is that you take as gospel...
in your case..."louie simmons"

if he says...it must be true...and of course ...no one else has done it.

i guess everyone on this board has never heard of past champs that lifted as much as the modern guys with no shirts...and "pyradized" powerlifting...but oh...that is so unscientific...

kaz, rick weil, larr pacifico, ed coan, kirk karwoski, jim williams...paul dicks, mike mcdonald, gene bell.

but chalk it up to genetics...ther heart, training, and dedication had nothing to do with it...louie is just so much more scientific...

First of all the question of this thread was do you use your lats or your pecs more for the bench. I dont see your answer to the question posed. Instead you decide to attack people for following a system that had proven itself in battle....you know at competitions where all the "what I can bench at the gym" BS is thrown out the window.

Jesus freak??! Thats funny. How can you argue with the success of WSB? For the record KAZ was a genetic freak. There have been University studies done on him to try to figure his genetics out. I give ALL the credit in the world to the past champions that you have dug up to represent people that were strong using periodization. I wonder how much STRONGER they might have been if they had used "Louie's Methods".

And while we are at it...."Louie's method" is not even his. It comes from Soviet literature...and he generally lists his references. You remember the Soviet Olympic Team years ago right? They were the ones in the red lifting suit with the hammer and sickle on them...and they kicked the U.S. Team's ASS!!! The U.S. Team was using periodization. Hmmmmmm?!! "But the Soviets were on steriods"....uhhhh "Hello McFly" if you think the U.S. lifters were clean you are very niave.

Not sure what the point of your post was?

 

[spatts]

You're not comparing apples to apples. WSB vs PERIODIZATION is not the same as BENCH WITH YOUR PECS vs BENCH WITH YOUR SHOULDERS/LATS/TRIS. You are cross comparing training structure with form.

Kaz told American Strength that lats and tris were responsible for his lifts.

Ed Coan's book says show 6 work sets for bench that ephesize lats, tris, and SPECIFIC shoulder work, and only light flys:

A few sets of light flyes and he is ready for triceps....

Larry Pacifico says tricep training is where it's at. This is on both his personal site, AND he is specifically mentioned in Dave Tate's 12 step article (which I pasted above) as being the grandfather of training tris for bench.

You're 0 for 3, so I'm not even going to bother looking up the other guys.

 

[Twitched]

I used to feel like the bar was going to crush me just by unracking.. I couldn't breathe, it was stressful, painful, heavy.

Then I learned to transfer ALL of the weight to my lats, leaving pecs relaxed, and I was able to take a nice deep breath then power through the lift using the method mentioned above.


A+.

 

[Longshooter]

you have to understand somthings,george halbert and other lifter's from westside are not saying the pec's do not bench!the pec's are a primary mover.that is a fact.if the pec's are the strongest muscle group by to far,they will take to much of the load and you are more likely to pull a pec.when you use a bench shirt the bottom is not the weak link,the lockout is.so keeping these things in mind,you develope the lats to take more of the burden on the way down to help save pec tears,the shirt reduces the weight on the bottom to a low % thus the reason for light speed day because what you are pushing out of the bottom is in the 45% range and why they say speed is so important and the pec's are not .the weak link then becomes the tri's,which is why they say the tri's are the most important.almost everyone who benches in a good shirt has trouble locking out.but if you take the bench shirt out of this,it is still important to have strong lats for the same reasons and strong tri's but the sticking point changes for most.the bottom now needs the pec's alot more.so train whats week.

 

[cal]

well if youre gonna make comparisions make them make sense...

comparing someone competing without a bench press and comparing someone with a double denim...shirt...is not a comparison.


comparing someone squatting ...below parallel and walking out is not the same as wearing extra long wraps, wearing a ridicoulous suit, squatting to parallel, and ...using a monolift.

can be impressive nonetheless, but its not the same and everyone knows it. its a joke if someone can barely bench press 400 and then with shirt do almost 500.

lets keep riding louies jock...those old timers...were so old fashioned and ...how the hell could they have known what the hell they were doing...hmmmmm
yeah doyle kennady ...well he just didnt know what he was doing...plus it was all genetics...and damn...we all know the CNS always breaks down...and deadlifting is a waste...only ...that all the 4 men that have deadlifted 900+ ...deadlifted...regularly...but lets stick to the pull throughs...and ...such...there is no need to deadlift...its so old fashioned...
read some books...like inside powerlifting by terry todd...

 

[cal]

umm...i have larry pacifico's book...
he does say pecs are very important...for lifting...spatterson...know what youre talking about...but keep riding louie's jock...
who the hell said wsb and periodization was the same as lats vs. chest...get your head out of your ass...

big deal...ooooh...it was off topic...
you've never even heard of the others...?

you sound like a retard...stop quoting shit you read out of louie's shit like ...he is the only man to know what he is talking about...

btw louie and dave tate both have articles saying that benching without a shirt...that lifters should emhasize...pecs...and do many illegal wides and that ...and tris dont need that much emphasis...its in powermag...even says....shirt...do more tris...shirtless do fewer...

this board is a waste of time...

get yourselvs a life fellas...
i know most of you losers can't even get laid...ive read some of your shit...this sounds like its a bit too important to you...not lifting but all your great "buddies" ...get some friends in the real world...

LATER...

 

[k1401]

this will REALLY get interesting now!

 

[spatts]

Wow, you take this way too seriously.

I don't lift with lifting gear, so I can't comment on that.

No one is doubting that you use your chest to bench, it is just not the major muscle used in a PL's bench press, whether you're "riding Louie's jock" or riding Ed Coan's jock.

Were you at the bench comp at the Arnolds this year? None of those guys bench with their chest as the primary force, and not all of them are WSB devotees.

What do you bench? How do you bench? Why don't you teach us a thing or two instead of telling us we're wrong. That's not proactive. I would love to continue this debate if you can debate with a little respect.

...and like Hannibal said, Louie himself does NOT take credit for his techniques. The Russians are responsible for this and Louie gives credit where credit is due.

 

[b fold the truth]

Don't you just love trolls?

Is this SSalexSS?

lol

B True

 

[Hannibal]

Does anyone want to have an intelligent discussion?

cal...not even worth it...nice try though...

 

[Arioch]

Let me add: Rick Weil, all triceps. We ran a meet together, so I know what I am talking about. And I have his book. And he benched reverse grip.

Paul Dicks. Triceps. His secret exercise: The California Press, which he got so much out of and so popularized it is more often called the Paul Dicks press.

Louie Simmons is regard with esteem simply because he is the most succesful coach in powerlifting history, bar none. No one has produced anywhere near the number of champion athletes he has. This is the mark of a good coach. Furthermore, he is still continually trying to learn, both to improve his own performance as well as that of his athletes, this is the mark of a great coach. He will often reference his material, and the basic physiology he describes is rather elementary.

An individual, such as anyone you listed, is not necessarily an authority on training, despite there accomplishments. Many athletes succeed in spite of their training methods and theories, not because of them. By way of example I give you James Henderson, who has a great bench, but little clue as to how to train. I have seen him train on several occasions, and to call his training methods "hollistic" would be generous. He had to ask what someone was doing when they were doing DB rows. Do not get me wrong, he is a nice guy and a good lifter, but I would not listen to his training advice.

By the same token, I would take the training advice of any individual with a great deal of salt, simply because if they are the only one who trains the way they do, odds are their methods are not the reasons for their success.

And perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, but is it possible for you to be a bit more courteous to the ladies? This may not the mark of a great coach, but it is definitely one of the marks of a man.

 

[k1401]

Well said Arioch!

 

[brianmincher]

Cal,

I am a Louie Freak, proud of it. As you put it, "his" methods have put over 100 lbs on my bench in less than 10 months. And I had been consistently weight training for 9 years before I took up westside training, so this is not the case of someone who is so new to training that he would have progressed anyway.

Don't use his methods. Go max out every week and do the same exercises over and over. I don't care. Train like Kaz did or like Coan does, I genuinely hope you get their results. I have tried a lot of different systems over the years and for me, nothing else is even close. I espouse the system because it works. But if you don't want to use it, don't.

Hell, except for my bro's (and sister's) on this board, I don't want anyone to use it. More first place trophy's for me.

Hannibal, I know this was not a worthy debate, but I am 12 days out from a meet and I am a bit keyed up, so I thought What the Hell?

B.

 

[Lumberg]

I bench maily to develop muscles but lately I have been on a kcik where I would like to increase my bench. I have been moving my hands in a little at a time and have gotten stronger which is good.

However I did an experiment where I did no other exercises to hit my chest and the next days my chest was sore after bench. So it is still the predominant muscle in my bench.

For you powerlifters on the lat side, what is sorest after benching? Your lats? Is your chest still sore?

Just wondering, and I am going to read all those articles now,

JC

 

[brianmincher]

I don't get sore in chest or lats or anywhere else for that matter.

B.

 

[Hannibal]

Hannibal, I know this was not a worthy debate, but I am 12 days out from a meet and I am a bit keyed up, so I thought What the Hell?

B.

"Speak not into the ears of a fool for he will despise the wisdom of your words."

Having said that...sometimes you just have to say what the hell...believe me there are lots of times that I want to...taking the "high road" can be boring.

KICK ASS in your meet...and PLEASE use your lats to set a new PR in the bench.

 

[brianmincher]

Thanks Hannibal,

I will be flexing those lats, popping the shirt and catching the bar for a lockout with my (Ren Hoek voice) "Huge triceps muscles".

I know he (Ren) says huge pectoral muscles, but what does a cartoon chihuahua know about bench pressing?

B.