Benching....legs up or down...

[Guinness5.0]

Billions huh???

OK that I gotta see

Well my camera shoots at 30 frames/second and the clip would be ~30 seconds.

30x30x1000=900000 so I exaggereated

 

[gymtime]

Well my camera shoots at 30 frames/second and the clip would be ~30 seconds.

30x30x1000=900000 so I exaggereated

OK feeling a little cheated now, but fine. 900,000 it is.

Guys, just remember, it's possible to be an experienced, intelligent weight lifter who doesn't necessarily want to gain strength or size anymore. It's not always about that. I spent ten years going for that. Now it's more about being fit, which means I don't really do the heavy stuff anymore. I don't care about adding 20lbs to my bench or adding another 1/4 inch to my arms. I'm a few years away from 40 now and I just wanna not look like a doofus in a tshirt

In other words, my goals are simply different from yours. So I'd be careful in criticizing too harshly those people who chose to do things differently. That's all I'm sayin'.

 

[BiggT]

I think I might have been unclear before. I would never do a full set of bench press with my feet up. I've done it on a warm up simply remind myself not to arch my back too much, that's really the only reason.

All this being said, I haven't done flat barbell bench in months. It's all been db and bar incline, and db flat, that's it, for bench anyway. Plus I do some other chest stuff.

Makes perfect sense.

This does bring up another point to guys who train for appearance looking to refine what they built. You'll still need various training phases throughout your training calander. In a perfect world, you could build muscle, keep it forever, then just refine it, but there will come a point where the size does decrease considerably from not doing the heavy compound work and the refining will be pointless because there will be nothing left to refine. Just something I thought worth bringing up in terms of various phases of training.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Point taken gymtime.

BUT, I still don't see why one would do an exercise improperly (or less than ideally) despite 'modest' goals. Maybe use db's or different rep ranges or whatever. But I still can't see changing an exercise just for grins. IMO the point is, regardless of the goal, to train smart. Modifying solid movements b/c of psuedo-science and assumptions as to changes in effectiveness isn't likely to further any goal.

 

[BiggT]

Point taken gymtime.

BUT, I still don't see why one would do an exercise improperly (or less than ideally) despite 'modest' goals. Maybe use db's or different rep ranges or whatever. But I still can't see changing an exercise just for grins. IMO the point is, regardless of the goal, to train smart. Modifying solid movements b/c of psuedo-science and assumptions as to changes in effectiveness isn't likely to further any goal.

I could not agree more. I feel that to meet a goal you should do things correctly, the way they were designed, for the goal they were designed for, and not try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[gjohnson5]

Point taken gymtime.

BUT, I still don't see why one would do an exercise improperly (or less than ideally) despite 'modest' goals. Maybe use db's or different rep ranges or whatever. But I still can't see changing an exercise just for grins. IMO the point is, regardless of the goal, to train smart. Modifying solid movements b/c of psuedo-science and assumptions as to changes in effectiveness isn't likely to further any goal.

I think what weight lifting needs are some standards so we can all know what "properly' and 'improperly' mean in terms of benching. Those words are subjetive in this conversation.

 

[Madcow2]

I think outside of recreational lifting there are standards (powerlifting, olympic lifting) and some leeway for a lifter to better customize a lift (i.e. squat vs. split clean, amount of arch, flat back, depth on squat). It's bodybuilding and recreational fitness that has changed exercises around sometimes for the better, often for worse. I see trainwreck stuff every time I walk in the gym. I can't tell you the last time I saw someone deadlift without making me cringe and hold my spine (and you see this in magazines too that demonstrate technique with models and photographers that don't have a clue). The problem is that there's really no need for benchmarks or standards in these endevours. They are largely about qualitative aesthetics or some general activity to get their bodies moving than they are about performance on given exercises even in a non 1RM setting. It seems very few even track their lifts over time.

I had a conversation with a moron a few weeks ago on another forum. We are talking about training for optimal strength in a pure elite strength setting and he is telling us his program is great for it because he took his best set of ezbar curls from Y for 20 reps to performing this drop set with 3 different tiers. Kind of eliminates the possibility of having a reasonable discussion without apples to apples. Generally people understand this but that guy seemed to not get it and reallize how absurd it sounded.

 

[BiggT]

Madcow is right, in specific strength-related endeavors there is more of a 'standard'. Olympic lifters tend to lift in the purest form in my opinion, over the years and due to the inreased use of equipment, powerlifting has evolved a lot, but still, there are standards that would be considered good, fair, and poor form all across. The only differences are individual leverage and proportion issues and personal strengths and weaknesses like pulling conventional or sumo, squat or split snatching, split or power jerking, etc.....

With bodybuilding, there has been all sorts of different things done over the years, and with no performance criteria, things have gotten blurred. Throw in widespread and increased use of anabolics to enhance the shittiest of stimuli and you get utter garbage like the Weider Principles, Gym Lore, and Pseudo Science. Add in the fact that people who do not have performance criteria will try to dance around heavy squats, pulls, and to a lesser degree presses and avoid olympic lifting like the plague, and you get the reason most Bodybuilders train the way they do.

Now, Bodybuilding publications are readily available in news stands, while things like MILO are not. The recreational lifter will follow what is readily available and will assume since strength is not his primary goal, that that other stuff is not needed and is just specific to competitive strength athletes. When the crap they read about and then do in the gym doesn't work, they assume that they are maxed out on their potential and that the only way to growth is through steroids or supplements. IF steroids are not accessible, people tend to buy whatever supplement is being heavily advertised. The supplement companies (many of which were founded on money made from steroid sales) pay millions and millions a year to run ads in magazines because that is where all their business comes from. And just in time for people to realize something didn't work, something new and better PROMISING results comes out, and because they can't just say 'squat, pull, press, that simple' and continue to keep selling mags, the magazines keep churning out ridiculous, assinine training info, and in conjuction with the supplement companies they create the lie that has become bodybuilding and recreational lifting. This lie is that training alone and getting good at compound lifts won't yield results, but there IS a magic combination of sets/reps/exercises/supersets/foods/drugs/supplements/cadences/tempos/angles/arcs/planes of motion, and once you find it by reading the mags for the LATEST discovery, you will magically be on the road to growth. The proof is in the pics. Guys like pro bodybuilders, juiced to the gills, who are huge because they are on enough gear to make signing your name cause enough stimulus for forearm growth are in in the pics so this MUST mean this info is legit.

Anyway, thats what happens, and thats why although there are 'standards' in EVERY other sport, bodybuilding and recreational lifting (because it is tied to bodybuilding) remains one of the most frustrating and mysterious pursuits for many. This, along with there being no interest in performance, and the fact that drugs can enhance shitty stimuli, are why so many people do so many bone-headed things in the gym. People will see some dumbass with 36'' thighs doing little sissy quarter squats that resemble more of a courtsey than an actual squat (The Markus Ruhl video comes to mind) and think this guy is HUGE, maybe for bodybuilding purposes you don't need to do full squats.....so people pass this info on to their friend who passes it on to his dad who passes it on to the guy at work looking to 'tone up' and you get a bunch of people with misinformation, where if the guy who saw the Ruhl video rationalized that Rhul has freaky drug receptors and an ability to tolerate massive amounts of gear, thus allowing him to look the way he does while training like a turd sandwich, then the misinformation wouldn't have been spread by him, possibly allowing everyone he talked to who believed him to to actually make progress in the gym.

 

[gymtime]

Makes perfect sense.

This does bring up another point to guys who train for appearance looking to refine what they built. You'll still need various training phases throughout your training calander. In a perfect world, you could build muscle, keep it forever, then just refine it, but there will come a point where the size does decrease considerably from not doing the heavy compound work and the refining will be pointless because there will be nothing left to refine. Just something I thought worth bringing up in terms of various phases of training.

Very true. It would probably be wise for me to look at a strength program for a certain portion of the year. If there's one thing I'm guilty of, it's repetetiveness in my workouts. While I do mix up my excercises each week, the basic workout has been the same for longer than I care to admit.

I think though, from what I've read, we are all on much the same page in terms of basic training philosophies. And while I already practice most of what you two are preaching, I've still learned a lot here guys, thanks to both of you.

 

[Madcow2]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to BiggT again.

-Nice rant, and sadly right on the money. Too bad I can never give Karma when I want to.