Bench vs Push press/overhead in 5x5

[asdfzxcv]

For a while I have done 5x5 without the bench press,substituting push press for it.Recently I have contemplated buying a bench(I dont have much money so squat stands came first),but then I thought to myself why?To me it seems that overhead work seems to place much more overall stimulus on the body,particulary the core.I dont really care about having a big bench as I prefer overhead work and my body seems to stay in proportion despite the lack of a bench.

Personally I think I should stay with push presses,but will I be missing out on much by continuing not to bench?I feel like bench is not THAT inportant in the overall picture but I want to know what you guys think?

Thanks

 

[blut wump]

You don't see Oly lifters worrying about bench. OHP used to be the Oly lift until it became perverted by allowing so much back bend that it became a standing bench-like press. Many consider the incline press to be the second best to the OHP and the bench to be a reasonable third choice.

Personally, I feel more comfortable with a flat bench press over the incline one and I try to ensure that I don't neglect OHP. Often it comes down to how knackered my core or back is feeling as to how well I can push myself on OHP.

 

[asdfzxcv]

Thanks for the input Blut wump,the oly lifters were the first thing that came to my mind too.Dont get me wrong,the bench press is a good movement no doubt,but I think it has been overempasized somewhat in recent years.I think that the overhead is the upper body equal of the squat,as it places a large amount of focus on the core as well as the upper body.

I apologise for my stupid questions

 

[anotherbutters]

No need to apologise. I was wondering about swapping the OH press and bench when I restart my 5x5, so I'd OH press on Monday/Friday and really work it, leaving bench press for Wednesdays. OH press was my best improvement on my last run, so I was hoping the increased frequency would help even more.

 

[asdfzxcv]

When are you starting again butters?I liked reading your last journal .

 

[anotherbutters]

Thanks. I've been chomping at the bit for a long while now. I didn't do any squats on Mon and Wed this week and when I saw the chiro on Wed evening, he said I'd made good progress. Basically, my hip had stayed straight. So no squatting = progress

He still wants me to avoid squatting heavy, but it's driving me crazy. He said I ought to be able to build up over the next 3 months (!), but I know he's bound to be conservative. He conceded and said "ok, 6 weeks then", which I'm happier with. If I add 5kg per week to my squat (I did 60 yesterday), I'll reach my old PR weight in 8 weeks, which sounds like a plan, so long as my hip stays ok. My PRs will have dropped so it will be hard after 5-6 weeks anyway.

 

[blut wump]

No need to apologise. I was wondering about swapping the OH press and bench when I restart my 5x5, so I'd OH press on Monday/Friday and really work it, leaving bench press for Wednesdays. OH press was my best improvement on my last run, so I was hoping the increased frequency would help even more.

There was a good post from BiggT a couple of weeks back regarding heavy-medium-light on pressing. One potential problem with moving bench press to Wednesday is that you tend to use more weight on bench compared with incline or OH.

The suggestion to someone wanting to cycle intensity through the week was Mon bench, Wed OHP, Fri incline. This naturally leads to heavy, light medium days for the body. Doing the heavy pressing on the same day as your one deadlift effort of the week might over-stress your Weds workout.

 

[anotherbutters]

True, but considering fatigue accumulated over the week as a whole, I'd be replacing two bench presses and an OH press with two OH presses and one bench, which is lower load overall. Surely that's more important than how the load varies during the week? So long as I can manage the Wednesday workout, or was that your point?

 

[blut wump]

I was thinking more of the work on the Weds. but I don't know how bad the Weds. SF workout gets. The DF one can be brutal in weeks 3 & 4. The important thing is being aware of which factors change when subs are made to a well-balanced program.

 

[Protobuilder]

Good thinkin' fellas.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to do zero chest work. The pecs are decent sized muscles, at least as large as the shoulders, and you can move more weight w/ flat bench than w/ OHP. If you don't do any incline or flat work, you're kinda' leaving this muscle out of the picture. (and yes I know people say you get some chest stimulation w/ OHP but it ain't much, IMO) I'm just thinking out loud here, but the bench uses primarily the chest, delts, and tris . .. the military or OHP uses primarily two of those . . . so it's a no-brainer: you want the compound exercise that uses the most muscle groups--the bench press.

 

[musketeer]

You need a bench mate!

 

[Jim Ouini]

BTW, I was watching one of those IM vids - 'Training Champions' or some such - and was surprised to see a couple guys benching. Maybe it's just selective editing but usually you just see the other stuff like snatches, back/front squats etc. Of course those are more fun to watch anyway.

That led me to wonder if the oly guys bench, deadlift, row, dip or whatever as part of their training...

 

[view]

IMO, you need a bench. as far as I know, completely neglecting benching could lead to some pretty large strength imbalances between the anterior and posterior chains. this in turn may increase risk of injury.

 

[enigma4dub]

You need a bench mate!

couldnt agree more. i gotta believe that there is some sort of synergy between all of the big lifts, and although it may be considered the least important it is still vital.

 

[asdfzxcv]

Damn,well this sucks.I know this is not the same is benching,but what about weighted dips done 1-2times a week as assistance,wouldnt that ensure that the chest gets at least some stimulation and is not left totally unattended?

 

[enigma4dub]

Damn,well this sucks.I know this is not the same is benching,but what about weighted dips done 1-2times a week as assistance,wouldnt that ensure that the chest gets at least some stimulation and is not left totally unattended?

dips are good but what about the load? no where near what you can get on bench. i look at weighted dips as an accessory to bench and as a tricep excercise.

 

[view]

weighted pushups maybe? floor press maybe?

 

[Guinness5.0]

dips are good but what about the load? no where near what you can get on bench. i look at weighted dips as an accessory to bench and as a tricep excercise.

I gotta disagree on this point. I can use a 90 pound db for sets of 10 on weighted dips. That's 242 bw (at the time) plus 90 which is 332 lbs x 10, so workload is 3320 lbs. for that set. My recent (and juiced) 5rm on bench was 305, for a workload of only 1525 lbs. So maybe some are different than others but in my case the workload diff favors dips by a large margin.

 

[asdfzxcv]

I was think of something like this
mon
Squat
rows
push press
dips as assistance work

wed
lighter squats
deads
chins
ohp
other assistance work

fri
squat
rows
push press
dips as assistance work

 

[Guinness5.0]

I think you should bench or dip on one of the days.

 

[enigma4dub]

I gotta disagree on this point. I can use a 90 pound db for sets of 10 on weighted dips. That's 242 bw (at the time) plus 90 which is 332 lbs x 10, so workload is 3320 lbs. for that set. My recent (and juiced) 5rm on bench was 305, for a workload of only 1525 lbs. So maybe some are different than others but in my case the workload diff favors dips by a large margin.

interesting thoughts. for me i can do dips with a 100 lb dumbell for 8 reps. my bodyweight is 203. however my 5 rep max on bench is 275. i may be incorrect but i didnt think the load was relative.

 

[asdfzxcv]

If I were to include dips should I use them as a core lift to replace bench outright and forget the push press,or should I do push press as a core moevement with dips as an assistance lift?

Believe me,load will not be an issue as I have a LONG way to go before I dip massive amounts.

Or should I do something like this

monday
squat
row
overhead press

wed
squats
deads
chins
weighted dips

monday
squat
row
overhead press



seems like a nice compromise

 

[asdfzxcv]

Issue solved,ordered a bench which should be here in a few days,thanks to all who contributed to the topic anyway

 

[enigma4dub]

sounds like the best solution.