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Assault on Fallujah has begun
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U.S. Forces Storm Into Western Fallujah
By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. forces stormed into western districts of Fallujah early Monday, seizing the main city hospital and securing two key bridges over the Euphrates river in what appeared to be the first stage of the long-expected assault on the insurgent stronghold.
An AC-130 gunship raked the city with 40 mm cannon fire as explosions from U.S. artillery lit up the night sky. Intermittent artillery fire blasted southern neighborhoods of Fallujah, and orange fireballs from high explosive airbursts could be seen above the rooftops.
U.S. officials said the toughest fight was yet to come — when American forces enter the main part of the city on the east bank of the river, including the Jolan neighborhood where insurgent defenses are believed the strongest.
The initial attacks on Fallujah began just hours after the Iraqi government declared 60 days of emergency rule throughout most of the country as militants dramatically escalated attacks, killing at least 30 people, including two Americans.
Dr. Salih al-Issawi, the head of Fallujah's main hospital, said he had asked U.S. officers to allow doctors and ambulances go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded but they refused. There was no confirmation from the Americans.
"The American troops'take over the hospital was not right because they thought that they would halt medical assistance to the resistance," he said by telephone to a reporter inside the city. "But they did not realize that the hospital does not belong to anybody, especially the resistance."
The action began after sundown on the outskirts of the city, which has been sealed off by U.S. and Iraqi forces, and the minaret-studded skyline was lit up with huge flashes of light.
Flares were dropped to illuminate targets, and defenders fought back with heavy machine gunfire. Flaming red tracer rounds streaked through the night sky from guerrilla positions inside the city, 40 miles west of Baghdad.
Before the assault began, U.S. commanders warned troops to expect the most brutal urban fighting since the Vietnam War.
Underscoring the instability elsewhere in Iraq (news - web sites), several heavy explosions thundered through the capital even as government spokesman Thair Hassan al-Naqeeb was announcing the state of emergency, which applies throughout the country except for Kurdish-ruled areas in the north.
Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said the state of emergency is a "very powerful message that we are serious" about reining in insurgents before elections set for late January.
"We want to secure the country so elections can be done in a peaceful way and the Iraqi people can participate in the elections freely, without the intimidation by terrorists and by forces who are trying to wreck the political process in Iraq," he told reporters.
Allawi said nothing in public about the beginning of the attack in Fallujah, although U.S. commanders have said it would be his responsibility to order the storming of the city.
Insurgents, meanwhile, waged a second day of multiple attacks across the restive Sunni Triangle north and west of Baghdad, storming police stations, assassinating government officials and setting off deadly car bombs. About 60 people have been killed and 75 injured in the two days of attacks.
At dawn, armed rebels stormed three police stations in the towns of Haditha and Haqlaniyah, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad, killing 22 policemen. Some were lined up and shot execution-style, according to police and hospital officials.
Three attacks on U.S. convoys in and around Baghdad killed two American soldiers and wounded five others, the military said. Residents reported grenades setting police cars aflame on Haifa Street in the heart of the capital.
A car bomb also exploded near the Baghdad home of Iraq's finance minister, Adil Abdel-Mahdi, a leading Shiite politician. Abdel-Mahdi and his family were not home at the time, but the U.S. military said the bomb killed one Iraqi bystander and wounded another. A U.S. patrol came under small-arms fire as it responded, wounding one soldier, a statement said.
In a Web posting, the al-Qaida affiliate group of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, believed headquartered in Fallujah, claimed responsibility for the attacks on Haditha and Haqlaniyah.
"In the dawn of this blessed day, the lions of al-Qaida in Iraq faced up to a group of apostates in the proud city of Haditha," said the statement, which could not be authenticated. "The lions stormed the city's police directorate and killed everyone there...With this operation, the city has been completely liberated. The lions have been wandering in the city until late today."
The widespread insurgent attacks seemed aimed at relieving the pressure on Fallujah, where about 10,000 American troops — including two Marine battalions and an Army battalion — were massed for the assault. Two Iraqi brigades also stood by.
The emergency decree lays the groundwork for a severe crackdown in areas where guerrillas operate.
Under the law, all traffic and men between the ages of 15 and 55 were banned from the streets of Fallujah and surrounding areas 24 hours a day.
All members of the Fallujah police and security services were suspended indefinitely. Under the emergency power, all roads into Fallujah and neighboring Ramadi are closed indefinitely.
Government negotiators earlier Sunday reported the failure of last-minute talks for peace even as Allawi had said dialogue with Fallujah leaders was still possible, even if a large-scale military action began.
Allawi, a secular-minded Shiite Muslim, faced strong pressure from within the minority Sunni community to avoid an all-out assault.
"I urge the brother prime minister to reconsider the issue of storming Fallujah and to give another chance for dialogue," Hatim Jassim, a member of the Iraqi National Council, told Al-Jazeera television.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) and others have warned that a military offensive could trigger a wave of violence that would sabotage the January elections by alienating the Sunni minority, which forms the core of the insurgency. About 60 percent of Iraq's 25 million people are Shiite.
The influential Sunni clerical Association of Muslim Scholars has threatened to call a boycott of elections if Fallujah is attacked. A public outcry over civilian casualties prompted the Bush administration to call off a siege in April, after which Fallujah fell under control of radical clerics.
U.S. jets have been pounding the rebel bastion for days, launching its heaviest airstrikes in six months on Saturday — including five 500-pound bombs dropped on insurgent targets — to soften up militants.
U.S. intelligence estimated about 3,000 insurgents have dug in behind defenses and booby traps in Fallujah, a city of about 300,000 which has become a symbol throughout the Islamic world of Iraqi resistance to the U.S.-led coalition.
Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent, the top enlisted Marine in Iraq, told troops the coming battle of Fallujah would be "no different" than the historic fights at Inchon in Korea, the flag-raising victory at Iwo Jima, or the bloody assault to dislodge North Vietnamese from the ancient citadel of Hue they seized in the 1968 Tet Offensive.
"You're all in the process of making history," Kent told a crowd of some 2,500 Marines. "This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt, if we do get the word, that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done — kick some butt."
By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. forces stormed into western districts of Fallujah early Monday, seizing the main city hospital and securing two key bridges over the Euphrates river in what appeared to be the first stage of the long-expected assault on the insurgent stronghold.
An AC-130 gunship raked the city with 40 mm cannon fire as explosions from U.S. artillery lit up the night sky. Intermittent artillery fire blasted southern neighborhoods of Fallujah, and orange fireballs from high explosive airbursts could be seen above the rooftops.
U.S. officials said the toughest fight was yet to come — when American forces enter the main part of the city on the east bank of the river, including the Jolan neighborhood where insurgent defenses are believed the strongest.
The initial attacks on Fallujah began just hours after the Iraqi government declared 60 days of emergency rule throughout most of the country as militants dramatically escalated attacks, killing at least 30 people, including two Americans.
Dr. Salih al-Issawi, the head of Fallujah's main hospital, said he had asked U.S. officers to allow doctors and ambulances go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded but they refused. There was no confirmation from the Americans.
"The American troops'take over the hospital was not right because they thought that they would halt medical assistance to the resistance," he said by telephone to a reporter inside the city. "But they did not realize that the hospital does not belong to anybody, especially the resistance."
The action began after sundown on the outskirts of the city, which has been sealed off by U.S. and Iraqi forces, and the minaret-studded skyline was lit up with huge flashes of light.
Flares were dropped to illuminate targets, and defenders fought back with heavy machine gunfire. Flaming red tracer rounds streaked through the night sky from guerrilla positions inside the city, 40 miles west of Baghdad.
Before the assault began, U.S. commanders warned troops to expect the most brutal urban fighting since the Vietnam War.
Underscoring the instability elsewhere in Iraq (news - web sites), several heavy explosions thundered through the capital even as government spokesman Thair Hassan al-Naqeeb was announcing the state of emergency, which applies throughout the country except for Kurdish-ruled areas in the north.
Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said the state of emergency is a "very powerful message that we are serious" about reining in insurgents before elections set for late January.
"We want to secure the country so elections can be done in a peaceful way and the Iraqi people can participate in the elections freely, without the intimidation by terrorists and by forces who are trying to wreck the political process in Iraq," he told reporters.
Allawi said nothing in public about the beginning of the attack in Fallujah, although U.S. commanders have said it would be his responsibility to order the storming of the city.
Insurgents, meanwhile, waged a second day of multiple attacks across the restive Sunni Triangle north and west of Baghdad, storming police stations, assassinating government officials and setting off deadly car bombs. About 60 people have been killed and 75 injured in the two days of attacks.
At dawn, armed rebels stormed three police stations in the towns of Haditha and Haqlaniyah, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad, killing 22 policemen. Some were lined up and shot execution-style, according to police and hospital officials.
Three attacks on U.S. convoys in and around Baghdad killed two American soldiers and wounded five others, the military said. Residents reported grenades setting police cars aflame on Haifa Street in the heart of the capital.
A car bomb also exploded near the Baghdad home of Iraq's finance minister, Adil Abdel-Mahdi, a leading Shiite politician. Abdel-Mahdi and his family were not home at the time, but the U.S. military said the bomb killed one Iraqi bystander and wounded another. A U.S. patrol came under small-arms fire as it responded, wounding one soldier, a statement said.
In a Web posting, the al-Qaida affiliate group of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, believed headquartered in Fallujah, claimed responsibility for the attacks on Haditha and Haqlaniyah.
"In the dawn of this blessed day, the lions of al-Qaida in Iraq faced up to a group of apostates in the proud city of Haditha," said the statement, which could not be authenticated. "The lions stormed the city's police directorate and killed everyone there...With this operation, the city has been completely liberated. The lions have been wandering in the city until late today."
The widespread insurgent attacks seemed aimed at relieving the pressure on Fallujah, where about 10,000 American troops — including two Marine battalions and an Army battalion — were massed for the assault. Two Iraqi brigades also stood by.
The emergency decree lays the groundwork for a severe crackdown in areas where guerrillas operate.
Under the law, all traffic and men between the ages of 15 and 55 were banned from the streets of Fallujah and surrounding areas 24 hours a day.
All members of the Fallujah police and security services were suspended indefinitely. Under the emergency power, all roads into Fallujah and neighboring Ramadi are closed indefinitely.
Government negotiators earlier Sunday reported the failure of last-minute talks for peace even as Allawi had said dialogue with Fallujah leaders was still possible, even if a large-scale military action began.
Allawi, a secular-minded Shiite Muslim, faced strong pressure from within the minority Sunni community to avoid an all-out assault.
"I urge the brother prime minister to reconsider the issue of storming Fallujah and to give another chance for dialogue," Hatim Jassim, a member of the Iraqi National Council, told Al-Jazeera television.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) and others have warned that a military offensive could trigger a wave of violence that would sabotage the January elections by alienating the Sunni minority, which forms the core of the insurgency. About 60 percent of Iraq's 25 million people are Shiite.
The influential Sunni clerical Association of Muslim Scholars has threatened to call a boycott of elections if Fallujah is attacked. A public outcry over civilian casualties prompted the Bush administration to call off a siege in April, after which Fallujah fell under control of radical clerics.
U.S. jets have been pounding the rebel bastion for days, launching its heaviest airstrikes in six months on Saturday — including five 500-pound bombs dropped on insurgent targets — to soften up militants.
U.S. intelligence estimated about 3,000 insurgents have dug in behind defenses and booby traps in Fallujah, a city of about 300,000 which has become a symbol throughout the Islamic world of Iraqi resistance to the U.S.-led coalition.
Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent, the top enlisted Marine in Iraq, told troops the coming battle of Fallujah would be "no different" than the historic fights at Inchon in Korea, the flag-raising victory at Iwo Jima, or the bloody assault to dislodge North Vietnamese from the ancient citadel of Hue they seized in the 1968 Tet Offensive.
"You're all in the process of making history," Kent told a crowd of some 2,500 Marines. "This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt, if we do get the word, that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done — kick some butt."
Why are we there again?
GoldenDelicious
New member
a moments silence please, for those poor fools who are about to lose thier lives under false pretences...and those are just the US/british/aus soldiers...
i-Supplements
New member
Kroliczek said:I just feel sorry for all those poor boys and men who will perish...and for their families..
for them.
The men and women know the risk of war when they join the military. That was a choice and decision they all made when and before they signed up. I give them all the highest praise.
well at this point we have to show the middle east terrorists and such that we got balls and will not back down. The only thing these people understand are force, they don't understand nor respect diplomacy...
These people kill their own, rape murder and pillage all in the name of their god...they are nothing more than thugs...
Originally we were there to over throw Hussein, but the only critical mistake Bush and the military made was in not being prepared for this part of the war...they relied on faulty intelligence
We are there now, we are going to kick ass and at some point turn this country over to its people and they can either govern like human beings or continue to act like animals.
These people kill their own, rape murder and pillage all in the name of their god...they are nothing more than thugs...
Originally we were there to over throw Hussein, but the only critical mistake Bush and the military made was in not being prepared for this part of the war...they relied on faulty intelligence
We are there now, we are going to kick ass and at some point turn this country over to its people and they can either govern like human beings or continue to act like animals.
chewyxrage
New member
intense
i-Supplements
New member
chesty said:
Well said!
Those poor US/Brit/Aus soldiers are not poor in any sense, they are there because they want ot be there, they have balls the size of the sun and are fighting for what they believe in, which is more than can be said for most of the arm chair defenders in this country
GoldenDelicious
New member
says chesty, hailing from the USA, a country that invaded iraq despite a lack of world/UN support...the reason for a lack of support being, apart from a dreadful lack of evidence based rationale, was taht all channels of diplomacy had not been anywhere near exhausted.chesty said:
x 10uh, great reason to invade....because americans never, ever, ever rape or murder each other. ever. ever ever.chesty said:
x 20wtf are you talking about? the primary reason cited for war was flawed. the evidence was flawed. the 'intelligence' was flawed. the estimated time needed to carry out the campaign was underestimated severely. the cost of the war was underestimated severely. the numbers of soldiers needed to carry out the campaign was underestmated. the regime change was mishandled.chesty said:
...and yet the ONLY 'critical' mistake made was not being prepared for this part of the war?
x 100they already were governing like human beings. maybe not according to your ideals, but they were governing like human beings.chesty said:
funny how someone who has signed up to go and kill people that he doesnt know can condescend to an entire culture, accusing them of behaving like animals.
x 1000wake the fuck up. people are dying for the empirical aspirations of a small group of americans. 'liberation' my balls.
GoldenDelicious said:
Why are they fools? Because they enlisted in the military and ended up being sent overseas. Am I a fool for fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq?
The sad thing is that if we really wanted to pacify Fallujah we would be able to inside of an hour. PC'ness sucks.
GoldenDelicious
New member
yep.75th said:
yep.75th said:
S
Spartacus
Guest
talked to a dude this past week who was hangin' out helping our shop mechanicchesty said:
he's home for 2 weeks from Iraq
not gonna really get into the convo
but he is going to reup
we're with you
Yes, we could pacify in a hour or less...
Funny, last time I checked this is America and I don't need your permission nor the UN nor the worlds to do whatever I want...
No, we do not murder and rape our citizens by coordinated efforts of groups all claiming an allegiance to a particular man or god...to overthrow our gov't. We don't go around kidnapping foreigners and our citizens demanding some ransom or release of political prisoners and then beheading them and video taping it.
Our premise for going in was based on intelligence gathered during the clinton years.
We all enlisted and reenlisted, took the oath more than once and guess what, it is what we wanted to do...when my orders come in I won't hesitate to do what I feel is right and I will be sure not to ask for your permission...
Funny, last time I checked this is America and I don't need your permission nor the UN nor the worlds to do whatever I want...
No, we do not murder and rape our citizens by coordinated efforts of groups all claiming an allegiance to a particular man or god...to overthrow our gov't. We don't go around kidnapping foreigners and our citizens demanding some ransom or release of political prisoners and then beheading them and video taping it.
Our premise for going in was based on intelligence gathered during the clinton years.
We all enlisted and reenlisted, took the oath more than once and guess what, it is what we wanted to do...when my orders come in I won't hesitate to do what I feel is right and I will be sure not to ask for your permission...
GoldenDelicious
New member
by bombing the place, and killing the remaining 150,000 people in the city? nice line of thought, mr liberator.chesty said:
hm, last time i checked, Iraq isnt america, and you have no fucking business doing anything at all over there.chesty said:
no, you do it as individuals, motivated by greed.chesty said:
although the various mafias (including some elements of your government, funnily enough) do qualify as fitting your description.
youre deluded. head. arse. remove.
lol they didnt get the chance. your military overthrew their governmentchesty said:
then installed a new one, which is mere puppetry imo, and then you wonder why the appointed ministers are getting assassinated by the public.no, you just throw them into places like guatanamo bay and torture them for a few years, without justifying your actions to the world, and ignoring the Geneva agreementchesty said:
and yet you admitted earlier that it was flawed. what are you trying to do, impress me with the age of the intelligence? it was wrong, you are wrong, your actions are wrong....but hey, the intelligence is from the clinton era. pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftchesty said:
your whole military? all of you? 100% of you? are you suuuuuuure that there was no coercion on the part of your military administration to keep soldiers there against their will? have a read (i assume that since you can type, yo ucan read): www.operationtruth.orgchesty said:
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Spartacus
Guest
here is the prize for you chestychesty said:
GoldenDelicious
New member
ooooooo operationtruth is GONE!
wow, wonder why. more of that "free will" stuff, im sure.
wow, wonder why. more of that "free will" stuff, im sure.
All I know is that in the coming days families here are going to have to experience their worst nightmare. They are going to see a car pull up, and have fellow Marines tell them that their son, brother, husband, or father is not going to ever talk to them again. That he's not going to be there for the hollidays. That a husband is not going to be there to cut the grass, help fix things around the house, make her laugh, or hold her when it's cold. That a father isn't going to be there to help his children with their homework, to teach them how to catch, to build them a club house, to brag on how beautiful his little angel is. Most important is that he won't be there to tell them that everything will be alright when they feel scared and alone.
I'm not questioning why they are there, and I would never question their noble profession, but I also don't think that it is a time to celebrate their going into battle. Maybe it would be better to say a silent prayer for them and their families.
May they all come home safely.
I'm not questioning why they are there, and I would never question their noble profession, but I also don't think that it is a time to celebrate their going into battle. Maybe it would be better to say a silent prayer for them and their families.
May they all come home safely.
Yes, we could pacify in a hour or less...
Funny, last time I checked this is America and I don't need your permission nor the UN nor the worlds to do whatever I want...
No, we do not murder and rape our citizens by coordinated efforts of groups all claiming an allegiance to a particular man or god...to overthrow our gov't. We don't go around kidnapping foreigners and our citizens demanding some ransom or release of political prisoners and then beheading them and video taping it.
Our premise for going in was based on intelligence gathered during the clinton years.
We all enlisted and reenlisted, took the oath more than once and guess what, it is what we wanted to do...when my orders come in I won't hesitate to do what I feel is right and I will be sure not to ask for your permission...
Funny, last time I checked this is America and I don't need your permission nor the UN nor the worlds to do whatever I want...
No, we do not murder and rape our citizens by coordinated efforts of groups all claiming an allegiance to a particular man or god...to overthrow our gov't. We don't go around kidnapping foreigners and our citizens demanding some ransom or release of political prisoners and then beheading them and video taping it.
Our premise for going in was based on intelligence gathered during the clinton years.
We all enlisted and reenlisted, took the oath more than once and guess what, it is what we wanted to do...when my orders come in I won't hesitate to do what I feel is right and I will be sure not to ask for your permission...
GoldenDelicious
New member
and others need to make the distinction between the words human and humane.rushx79 said:
although your last sentence is true. just not how you intended it to be.
S
Spartacus
Guest
I think what we all are hoping for is that by squashing this hornet's nest we will get significantly closer to our goal and the bloodshed will abate.big4life said:All I know is that in the coming days families here are going to have to experience their worst nightmare. They are going to see a car pull up, and have fellow Marines tell them that their son, brother, husband, or father is not going to ever talk to them again. That he's not going to be there for the hollidays. That a husband is not going to be there to cut the grass, help fix things around the house, make her laugh, or hold her when it's cold. That a father isn't going to be there to help his children with their homework, to teach them how to catch, to build them a club house, to brag on how beautiful his little angel is. Most important is that he won't be there to tell them that everything will be alright when they feel scared and alone.
I'm not questioning why they are there, and I would never question their noble profession, but I also don't think that it is a time to celebrate their going into battle. Maybe it would be better to say a silent prayer for them and their families.
May they all come home safely.
IvanOffelitch
Well-known member
chesty said:
"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to chesty again."
Thanks for serving.
S
Spartacus
Guest
hey 75th compare this to your avatar
GoldenDelicious
New member
what do you want? to be coddled?75th said:
we are talking about life and death. its not a game, or the latest round of Counter-Strike. We are talking about deception, by government, on a massive scale. people are dying without knowing the real purpose. there are many, many, many dupes in the armed forces of the world, doing some pretty shitty things.
i worked in a veterans hospital for a bit, some of the things they said, and the way they obviously felt after learning the real motives behind their deployment, were fairly awful.
i didnt form my opinion out of the blue - it was largely shaped when i spent time with men broken by the things youre doing right now.
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Spartacus
Guest
Chesty/75th be glad you aren't going to battle backed by this
like a bitter veteran is gonna know more about the truth than us? Who is to say our gov't is deceiving us? Wait, I know, the UN is righteous as is Germany, Russia, China, France, Etc...they are beyond reproach and have never deceived nor will deceive the world...
Why is it the ones not in power automatically assume that those who are elected to power are behind some hiden X-Files agenda?
Come on, maybe it was time the middle east needed an ass whooping. I mean really, with all their wealth and education and humanity they were so far ahead of the rest of the world in the arts and sciences that they were/are still using cow chips for cooking fuel and heating fuel, beating their women, forcing them to endure humiliation on a national scale, preventing them from voting, being educated, having almost no say so in their lives...yeah, reall paradise.
Why is it the ones not in power automatically assume that those who are elected to power are behind some hiden X-Files agenda?
Come on, maybe it was time the middle east needed an ass whooping. I mean really, with all their wealth and education and humanity they were so far ahead of the rest of the world in the arts and sciences that they were/are still using cow chips for cooking fuel and heating fuel, beating their women, forcing them to endure humiliation on a national scale, preventing them from voting, being educated, having almost no say so in their lives...yeah, reall paradise.
S
Spartacus
Guest
they really did it up good too
the signalmen and the fuckin' cones
the signalmen and the fuckin' cones
GoldenDelicious said:
No, I dont want to be coddled.
I enlisted in the Army after college because I thought it would be a profound life experience, one that many wouldnt have the opportunity to take advantage of. Also, im a big fan of my country.
Simply because our country became engulfed in a war does not mean that those fighting in it are fools. I spent my fair share of time in a VA hospital after some woman decided to blow herself and her car up near a small group of us.
I dont agree with the Iraqi war and I never did, but simply because I answered the call of duty when it came to me and lived up to my promise when I signed on the dotted line does not make me a fool/
S
Spartacus
Guest
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- A suspected Muslim extremist with alleged terrorist ties was under arrest Wednesday in the death of a Dutch filmmaker who criticized the treatment of women under Islam.chesty said:
Theo van Gogh, 47, who had been accused by Muslims of ridiculing their religion, was shot dead as he pedaled to work on his bicycle Tuesday. Two knives were left in his body, one pinning a note to his chest.
"Don't do it. Don't do it. Have mercy. Have mercy!" Van Gogh begged his killer, according to the Algemeen Dagblad newspaper, quoted by The Associated Press.
Another Dutch newspaper, the Telegraaf daily, carried a large color photograph of Van Gogh's body with a knife protruding from his chest under the headline "Butchered."
The Volkskrant newspaper, quoted by Reuters, said the 26-year-old suspect, who has dual Dutch and Moroccan nationality, was known to national security services but was not among a group of 150 Muslims the AIVD security service was monitoring.
The suspect was allegedly the friend of Samir Azzouz, an 18-year-old Muslim of Moroccan origin who is awaiting trial on charges of planning a terrorist attack on targets including a nuclear reactor and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, De Telegraaf and NOS Dutch television reported.
A picture on the front page of De Telegraaf showed the body of filmmaker Van Gogh lying on the street with two knives sticking out.
"We're not going to take this," the Dagblad said.
The paper said the killer shot Van Gogh eight or nine times, then calmly bent over his victim and slit his throat with a knife, AP reported.
A police officer was slightly injured in a subsequent shootout.
Fortuyn film
The gunning down of Van Gogh recalled the assassination of anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn, killed in 2002 by an animal rights activist.
Ironically Van Gogh had been working on a film about Pim Fortuyn which was due to be premiered in December.
The suspect "acted out of radical Islamic fundamentalist convictions," and claimed to have had contacts with a group that was under surveillance by the Dutch secret service, NOS TV, quoted by AP, reported.
The government held late-night crisis meetings and the immigration minister met with Muslim groups to discuss how to avoid violent confrontations with the Muslim community.
Van Gogh, who said he was the great-grandson of painter Vincent Van Gogh's brother, received death threats after the August airing of the movie "Submission," which he made with a right-wing Dutch politician who had renounced the Islamic faith of her birth.
Dutch Muslim groups condemned the killing and called for reconciliation. They expressed fears of possible reprisals against Muslims.
Demonstration
Around 20,000 people poured onto Amsterdam's central square in an emotional demonstration of support for Van Gogh and against violence.
The crowd blew horns, whistles and banged pots and pans.
"We won't gather for a moment of silence, but to say loud and clear: freedom of expression is dear to us, and it must continue," the city's mayor Job Cohen said, according to AP.
An award-winning filmmaker, television producer and newspaper columnist, Van Gogh was a controversial figure.
His murder came at a time of increased tensions in the Netherlands, where many blame violent crime on the Muslim minority, mainly made up of immigrants. Muslims, in turn, say new anti-immigration and anti-terrorism discriminate against them.
"This has to end, once and for all," 20-year-old student Orinta van Lent told AP at the demonstration. "You cannot just kill people on the street in a brutal way when you disagree with them."
S
Spartacus
Guest
"This is how the muslims begin, and is how they have always spread their religon, by fear and terror. Muslim agenda is to move into a country and become the major minority, demand to hold high positions in the political office, then incorporate muslim law into that said country. If this plan does not work then let the car bombings, torturing, child killing, and raping begin. For if you are not a Islamic you are a kufer and must submit to Islam or be killed. This is how the religon started and it is also how it spreads"
S
Spartacus
Guest
For instructions on how to reclaim your country from the moslems, please see:
- Spain, Reconquista 1492
- Balkans, wars of 1570 - 1913
Good luck!
- Spain, Reconquista 1492
- Balkans, wars of 1570 - 1913
Good luck!
S
Spartacus
Guest
the ironic circumstance is that the nation's which are most vulnerable to Muslim/Islamic expansion(i.e. europe) have been the most vocal in their oppositionchesty said:
"Almost two decades ago, Khomeini summarized his policy toward the Western powers thus: Kick them in the teeth, and they will kiss your hand!"
GoldenDelicious
New member
yeah, well, a guy dying of cancer when he was posted to 'guard' a nuclear test site kinda has the right to feel angry, after government documents come out after the fact stating that the government knew all about the risk to soldiers, but sent them to their deaths anywaychesty said:
veterans who were used as guinea pigs to test the latest round of military vaccines also have the right to be a bit annoyed, i think.
men who were coerced to join in a foreign war for foreign motives and ended up on a totally incapacitated pension (totally incapacitated means you pretty much have to get your nurse to wipe your arse for you, because your body/brain is totally fubar) usually get a bit grumpy when theyve been in a ward for the past 20 odd years
i love the way you say that you know the "truth" and yet your justification for joining jumps all over the place. as i recall, your initial "i just requested transfer to iraq" post was in response to the beheading of a hostage. now youre citing saddam hussein, with a bit of super feminism thrown in for good measure....and of course, your resolve was thrown after you had breakfast in a redneck bar. nothing like rock solid convictions to fire you up.
really, why ARE you going, chesty? (this time)
well, the constantly shifting justification for war is an indication, dont you think? we went from al quaida to bin laden, to afghanistan, didnt catch bin laden, then straight to iraq (hey? wtf?) becuase saddam funded terror (huh? he just did it himself, to his own people) then it switched to "liberating the iraqi people" (even though tens of thousands are dying in various african nations, and you hear not a peep about there). of course, the guarding of the oil ministry, but no other does paint the administration in a rather poor light, dont you agree? the establishment of permanent US bases in iraq more than a year after troops were meant to leave is a bit...suspicious....dont you think? how about the labelling of iraq, iran and north korea as an "axis of evil"chesty said:
cant you smell the bullshit? honestly?
youre right. that other nations have done it makes it perfectly alright for the US to do it. are you trying to justify evil because it has been perpetrated by others, previously? hell, lets just repeat the holocaust, i mean, its been done before, therefore it is acceptable to do it again! yeesh.chesty said:
im not sure where youre coming from. are you referring to myself as being "not in power", because i supported kerry (actually, i supported the strongest non bush candidate, but i suppose that point is a little too subtle)? what exactly are you trying to say?chesty said:
furthermore do you think it is wrong that i have an opinion, despite not having been elected into some democratic government or other? what is your point her, chesty?
this statement is completely fucked. i dont know where to start...so i guess i wont, and instead throw it back to you. do you think that the 100 000 dead civilians prefer it the way it is now, to how it was before? the french laugh at the americans for wiping their arses with paper, and prefer to wash...does that mean that they should come to the USA and kill you all, to save you from your own "backwards" notions?chesty said:
youre totally warped, chesty. you need to think about who you are in the world, what your country really is in the world, and then decide if its worth killing, and dying, for. you remind me of some brainwashed teenager right now, and its embarrassing.
cheers
GoldenDelicious
New member
imo, giving your life so that another can further their ambition would make you a fool.75th said:
i respect that you gave your word, and are sticking to it, but you still have a moral duty to dispute unfair/unjust orders.
i would find it offensive, as a soldier, if my government fed me propaganda to stiffen my resolve so that i could fight better/more...and i believe that is what is happening. i do not believe that the men and women making up the american armed forces would be so zealous if they knew the real reason behind the war. nor do i believe that they are so immoral that they would stand for dispossessing an entire nation/region to further the goals of their country.
if the real reasons for the war were widely known, imo there would be widespread refusal to carry out orders, similar to what is happening in the israeli armed forces with regard to the palestinian issue.
S
Spartacus
Guest
hey GD explain to me how I can section up a post and reply in kind like you doGoldenDelicious said:yeah, well, a guy dying of cancer when he was posted to 'guard' a nuclear test site kinda has the right to feel angry, after government documents come out after the fact stating that the government knew all about the risk to soldiers, but sent them to their deaths anyway
veterans who were used as guinea pigs to test the latest round of military vaccines also have the right to be a bit annoyed, i think.
men who were coerced to join in a foreign war for foreign motives and ended up on a totally incapacitated pension (totally incapacitated means you pretty much have to get your nurse to wipe your arse for you, because your body/brain is totally fubar) usually get a bit grumpy when theyve been in a ward for the past 20 odd years
i love the way you say that you know the "truth" and yet your justification for joining jumps all over the place. as i recall, your initial "i just requested transfer to iraq" post was in response to the beheading of a hostage. now youre citing saddam hussein, with a bit of super feminism thrown in for good measure....and of course, your resolve was thrown after you had breakfast in a redneck bar. nothing like rock solid convictions to fire you up.
really, why ARE you going, chesty? (this time)
well, the constantly shifting justification for war is an indication, dont you think? we went from al quaida to bin laden, to afghanistan, didnt catch bin laden, then straight to iraq (hey? wtf?) becuase saddam funded terror (huh? he just did it himself, to his own people) then it switched to "liberating the iraqi people" (even though tens of thousands are dying in various african nations, and you hear not a peep about there). of course, the guarding of the oil ministry, but no other does paint the administration in a rather poor light, dont you agree? the establishment of permanent US bases in iraq more than a year after troops were meant to leave is a bit...suspicious....dont you think? how about the labelling of iraq, iran and north korea as an "axis of evil"
cant you smell the bullshit? honestly?
youre right. that other nations have done it makes it perfectly alright for the US to do it. are you trying to justify evil because it has been perpetrated by others, previously? hell, lets just repeat the holocaust, i mean, its been done before, therefore it is acceptable to do it again! yeesh.
im not sure where youre coming from. are you referring to myself as being "not in power", because i supported kerry (actually, i supported the strongest non bush candidate, but i suppose that point is a little too subtle)? what exactly are you trying to say?
furthermore do you think it is wrong that i have an opinion, despite not having been elected into some democratic government or other? what is your point her, chesty?
this statement is completely fucked. i dont know where to start...so i guess i wont, and instead throw it back to you. do you think that the 100 000 dead civilians prefer it the way it is now, to how it was before? the french laugh at the americans for wiping their arses with paper, and prefer to wash...does that mean that they should come to the USA and kill you all, to save you from your own "backwards" notions?
youre totally warped, chesty. you need to think about who you are in the world, what your country really is in the world, and then decide if its worth killing, and dying, for. you remind me of some brainwashed teenager right now, and its embarrassing.
cheers
chesty and 75th I know you guys don't really fret over foreign backlash
but I'm here(and many others) to support Ya'll with what's available to us
GoldenDelicious
New member
4everhung said:
ok you know how when you press "reply with quote", the post of the person youre quoting appears in the reply field like this (in square brackets of course):
{QUOTE=4everhung}hey GD explain to me how I can section up a post and reply in kind like you do
chesty and 75th I know you guys don't really fret over foreign backlash
but I'm here(and many others) to support Ya'll with what's available to us{/QUOTE}
all you have to do is to copy the {QUOTE=4everhung} and {/QUOTE} bits, and paste the bit of text you want quoted in between them.
so, if i cut your post up like this:
{QUOTE=4everhung}hey GD explain to me how I can section up a post and reply in kind like you do{/QUOTE}4everhung can only ever be well hung if he is using a bit of rope and a noose
{QUOTE=4everhung}chesty and 75th I know you guys don't really fret over foreign backlash
but I'm here(and many others) to support Ya'll with what's available to us{/QUOTE}and an excellent support would be a roof beam or something
in square brackets, then it would look like this:
4everhung can only ever be well hung if he is using a bit of rope and a noose4everhung said:
and an excellent support would be a roof beam or something4everhung said:
i know that youre going to use this to bust my balls now. dont think i didnt know!!
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Spartacus
Guest
"OPEN LETTER TO HIRSHI ALI
In the name of Allah the kind, the merciful.
Peace and blessings upon the Emir of the Mujahideen, the laughing killer Mohammed Rasoulou Allah (Sala Allaho alaihie wa Sallam), his family and companions and those who follow him truthfully till the day of judgment.
There is no agression except against the agressors.
The following:
Peace and blessings upon any who follows the Leadership (Dan: could be 'guidance' instead of 'Leadership').
This is an open letter to an infidel fundamentalists, Ayaan Hirshi Ali, of the Thaghoet party VVD.
Dear miss Hirshi Ali,
Since your entrance into the political arena of Holland you have been constantly terrorising Muslims and Islam with your words. You are not the first and you won't be the last to join the crusade against Islam.
With your apostacy, you have not only turned your back on the truth, but you also march along the ranks of the soldiers of evil. You mince no words about your hostility against Islam, and for this your masters have rewarded you with a seat in parliament. They have found in you a companion in their crusade against Islam and Muslims. A companion who gives them the "gunpowder" so they don't have to do the dirty work. Seeing as that you're blind by the burning infidelity which rages inside you, you are incapable of seeing that you are just an instrument of the true enemies of Islam.
U are being used to spew various hostilities about Islam and the most noble, Mohammed Rasoul Allah (Salla Allaho aleihie wa Sallam).
I don't blame you for all of this Miss Hirshi Ali. as a soldier of evil you are merely doing your job.
The fact that you can openly spew your hatred is not to blame on you, but on the Islamic ummah. They have ceased their task of resistance against injustice and is sleeping it off.
All your hostilities can thus only be blamed on the Islamic ummah.
This letter is Insha Allah an attempt at silencing your evil once and for all. These written words will Insha Allah make you drop your mask
THIS WAS THE NOTE STUCK IN THE GUYS CHEST
bear in mind this is in the netherlands,not the neanderthal USA
I suggest you read both posts
and then again and really examine your thinking
In the name of Allah the kind, the merciful.
Peace and blessings upon the Emir of the Mujahideen, the laughing killer Mohammed Rasoulou Allah (Sala Allaho alaihie wa Sallam), his family and companions and those who follow him truthfully till the day of judgment.
There is no agression except against the agressors.
The following:
Peace and blessings upon any who follows the Leadership (Dan: could be 'guidance' instead of 'Leadership').
This is an open letter to an infidel fundamentalists, Ayaan Hirshi Ali, of the Thaghoet party VVD.
Dear miss Hirshi Ali,
Since your entrance into the political arena of Holland you have been constantly terrorising Muslims and Islam with your words. You are not the first and you won't be the last to join the crusade against Islam.
With your apostacy, you have not only turned your back on the truth, but you also march along the ranks of the soldiers of evil. You mince no words about your hostility against Islam, and for this your masters have rewarded you with a seat in parliament. They have found in you a companion in their crusade against Islam and Muslims. A companion who gives them the "gunpowder" so they don't have to do the dirty work. Seeing as that you're blind by the burning infidelity which rages inside you, you are incapable of seeing that you are just an instrument of the true enemies of Islam.
U are being used to spew various hostilities about Islam and the most noble, Mohammed Rasoul Allah (Salla Allaho aleihie wa Sallam).
I don't blame you for all of this Miss Hirshi Ali. as a soldier of evil you are merely doing your job.
The fact that you can openly spew your hatred is not to blame on you, but on the Islamic ummah. They have ceased their task of resistance against injustice and is sleeping it off.
All your hostilities can thus only be blamed on the Islamic ummah.
This letter is Insha Allah an attempt at silencing your evil once and for all. These written words will Insha Allah make you drop your mask
THIS WAS THE NOTE STUCK IN THE GUYS CHEST
bear in mind this is in the netherlands,not the neanderthal USA
I suggest you read both posts
and then again and really examine your thinking
S
Spartacus
Guest
so this filmmaker,outspoken about Islamic mistreatment of women meets this kind of demise?
from the netherlands
far from the nasty imperialistic USA
and we are supposed to be diplomatic with these honchos?
and I well understand that it's only a small fraction of Islam that behaves as such
which of course supports my arguement that our endeavors in the ME indeed do have altruistic aims
I guarangoddamntee you it's not all about oil
I'll be the first to admit petroleum is a factor
but ultimately we are attempting to pacify the middle east
and if we aren't successful on that front
well then examine the history of the "native Americans"
from the netherlands
far from the nasty imperialistic USA
and we are supposed to be diplomatic with these honchos?
and I well understand that it's only a small fraction of Islam that behaves as such
which of course supports my arguement that our endeavors in the ME indeed do have altruistic aims
I guarangoddamntee you it's not all about oil
I'll be the first to admit petroleum is a factor
but ultimately we are attempting to pacify the middle east
and if we aren't successful on that front
well then examine the history of the "native Americans"
S
Spartacus
Guest
oh but you willchesty said:
fuck 'em if they're not appreciative
I have full confidence in the US military handling this "cityfight" quite comfortably
Iran is watching,130,000 US soldiers subdue a 25 million populace nation
and I use the word "subdue" intentionally
this is about being a hardass when necessary and when the smoke clears we'll clean the place up and make it better
boy scout motto
S
Spartacus
Guest
well done,but you replicated the insultsGoldenDelicious said:ok you know how when you press "reply with quote", the post of the person youre quoting appears in the reply field like this (in square brackets of course):
{QUOTE=4everhung}hey GD explain to me how I can section up a post and reply in kind like you do
chesty and 75th I know you guys don't really fret over foreign backlash
but I'm here(and many others) to support Ya'll with what's available to us{/QUOTE}
all you have to do is to copy the {QUOTE=4everhung} and {/QUOTE} bits, and paste the bit of text you want quoted in between them.
so, if i cut your post up like this:
{QUOTE=4everhung}hey GD explain to me how I can section up a post and reply in kind like you do{/QUOTE}4everhung can only ever be well hung if he is using a bit of rope and a noose
{QUOTE=4everhung}chesty and 75th I know you guys don't really fret over foreign backlash
but I'm here(and many others) to support Ya'll with what's available to us{/QUOTE}and an excellent support would be a roof beam or something
in square brackets, then it would look like this:
4everhung can only ever be well hung if he is using a bit of rope and a noose
and an excellent support would be a roof beam or something
i know that youre going to use this to bust my balls now. dont think i didnt know!!
should I school you now?
What, you know what the truth is? How I wonder do you know more about why we are there and what the real reason is? I mean really? I guess, Pearl Harbor was set up by the US so that we could go to war on two major fronts. I guess Hitler really wasn't killing the Jews/Pols/Gypsies etc by torture and slave labor. I guess his plan wasn't the spread of Nazism across the world. The Third Reich was just a bunch of Brown Shirts wanting peace.
So it is with the middle east and people like Bin Laden and Hussein. They are just innocent pawns in Americas quest for oil...
Did you know the twin towers are still there? It was just a big mind *uck to get us to think they were blown up by hijacked airliners and that the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia among other places.
So it is with the middle east and people like Bin Laden and Hussein. They are just innocent pawns in Americas quest for oil...
Did you know the twin towers are still there? It was just a big mind *uck to get us to think they were blown up by hijacked airliners and that the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia among other places.
GoldenDelicious
New member
didnt replucate; i prefer the term "complimentary"4everhung said:
you can have a go if you like, but i wouldnt
the nature boy
New member
Well if you're going to go in, do it right this time. I was totally against this war, and I still am. But if you're going to "fix" the problem, don't let it fester. This issue in fallujah has been going on for how long? And Bush and company waited until AFTER the elections to make this assault? That basically sends a message that the war is being fought with politics in mind. So the insurgents/terrorists are going to probably try to make it a bloody affair (instead of running away), because they know our leaders are weary of high casualties.
This whole damn mess was the best thing that ever happened to bin ladden and his pals. Good job guys.
This whole damn mess was the best thing that ever happened to bin ladden and his pals. Good job guys.
big_bad_buff
New member
saddam hussain is hiding out there...wait, we caught him already......they must be hiding wmd or just assouated with the axis of evil
gonelifting said:
that I agree on. alot of Marines and Soldiers died a few months back just so we cojld give it back and allow them to build up and fortify their positions all because it was considered a political quagmire because of the civilian casulities caused mostly by the bad guys..
This time we need to go, wipe their asses on the mat and send them all packing to allah. No holds barred pure cage fighting, etc.
Yes, it will be bloody or at least the bad guys hope it will be. Mostly though I suspect it will be their blood on the mat, not ours.
This time we need to go, wipe their asses on the mat and send them all packing to allah. No holds barred pure cage fighting, etc.
Yes, it will be bloody or at least the bad guys hope it will be. Mostly though I suspect it will be their blood on the mat, not ours.
GoldenDelicious
New member
youre right, ignore someone who disagrees with you, but actually argues the point, despite your own lack of justificationMaxpain said:Folks ignore this prick.
His location should read:
I am a insane turd floating in a country full of bullshit !!!
i dont give out red much at all, but...you got some. that was a shitty post.
maxpain
New member
GoldenDelicious said:youre right, ignore someone who disagrees with you, but actually argues the point, despite your own lack of justification
i dont give out red much at all, but...you got some. that was a shitty post.
Why do I want to argue with you. Everything you say is bullshit. I have no idea where you get your information at. It must be from Al Jazeera TV. Saddam was given TWELVE YEARS to comply. He DID NOT do it. The UN resolutions gave us the authority to blow his motherfuckin ass up. So you know what we blew his fuckin ass up. So before you spew bullshit from your mouth motherfucker know what the fuck you are talking about.
chesty said:
LOL...yeah..the IRAQ mess is Clintons fault.
And if by your logic they were using "Clinton " Intel why did they ignore Intel Briefs that said "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside US" but yet gave attention to Intel that said "Hey Iraq is buying a funny yello powder" from Africa????
You are a fool....
Some people want to see our Armed Forces throw down and kick ass regardless of whether its right or wrong. I used to feel the same way when I was younger and ignant....
S
Spartacus
Guest
I think they could have done it "right" the first time NamathThe Nature Boy said:
so we have some internet poindexter with the acumen to direct our tactics
fool
GoldenDelicious
New member
well if he didnt comply, where are the so called WMDs? what is your point, exactly? i dont see anything but an out of the blue insult.Maxpain said:
really? which UN resolution? did yo umiss the part where teh UN denied authority for the US to invade, but the US said "we'll go it alone"Maxpain said:
lol, and you say im full of shit.
lololol
S
Spartacus
Guest
Ive got to drop the Cosby kids off at the pool
p0ink
New member
GoldenDelicious said:
don't think for two seconds that real soldiers actually want, or appreciate, or accept your pity/condolensces for them. they don't want any of that, especially from people like you and your ilk. to put it bluntly, they do not like you 'we support the troops but not the war' people.
you people do not, have not, and never will speak for the overwhelming majority of people in the service. so stop prentending like you are doing those 'dumb grunts' some sort of service.
p0ink.. the point of the inspections was to determine the existence of WMD's... well we still haven't found any and the most prestigious intelligence service in the world has even said so... I don't want to get involved in this pissing match, but if you think our foreign relations haven't suffered as a result of our inept leader...
GoldenDelicious
New member
lololol go cut and paste something, poink. it seems that your intelligence really is limited to making statements.p0ink said:
p0ink
New member
ZKaudio said:
ok...once again, they hated reagan, and it was his actions that made this world a much safer place.
europe cannot even handle their own shit; hitler, stalin, mussolini, franco, tito, river, milosevic, lukashenko, the balkans, WWI, WWII, etc. they have zero credibility when it comes to actually doing what is right. they have been wrong time and time again, so why the hell should we listen to them when it is OUR security on the line.
fuck europe.
GoldenDelicious
New member
poink.....geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez youre a dickhead!
lets take it slow, and use something called "common sense"
this statement:
combined with latter statements that there were NO wmd's in iraq, means that saddam did in fact comply, and so the invasion was unwarranted.
yeesh sometimes you scare me with how stupid you can be. get your head out of your arse, you idiot
(notice how im not being terribly polite anymore? you might want to think about why.)
p0ink said:
lets take it slow, and use something called "common sense"
this statement:
p0ink said:
combined with latter statements that there were NO wmd's in iraq, means that saddam did in fact comply, and so the invasion was unwarranted.
yeesh sometimes you scare me with how stupid you can be. get your head out of your arse, you idiot
(notice how im not being terribly polite anymore? you might want to think about why.)
p0ink
New member
GoldenDelicious said:
once again, you are wrong. if saddam had complied with 1472, we would not have invaded. it was that simple.
you said the UN passed a resolution denying the US the authority to invade, and i am still waiting to see a link to that resolution.
still waiting for that UN resolution from you....
GoldenDelicious
New member
oh fuck off, you time wasting bastard.
the nature boy
New member
4everhung said:
Shut up, dolt. Seriously at least try to contribute something instead of your worthless drivel that a mongoloid child could come up with. Probably took you 15 minutes to type that mindnumbing garbage.
GoldenDelicious
New member
moron (do you mind if i call you moron? i figure youre probably used to it) the thing about posting on forums is that you can just look back at what the person has written. i did not say "the UN passed a resolution saying the US couldn't invade iraq." nor did i imply that such a resolution was passed.p0ink said:
go back, reread the thread, and then once you have mastered simple comprehension (my 10 year old nephew has it under control, i can get you in touch with his teacher if youd like) then go back and edit the bullshit you ahve just written.
yeesh youre stupid. holy hell. its exasperating.
GoldenDelicious
New member
well, if stupid object like coathangers can breed in a closet, why should these two stooges be any different
S
Spartacus
Guest
wet your pantsZKaudio said:
and please tell what style
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Spartacus
Guest
twinkiesZKaudio said:
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Spartacus
Guest
hehThe Nature Boy said:
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Spartacus
Guest
he Challenge - and Puzzle - of Falluja
By Ralph Kinney Bennett Published 11/08/2004
"Never do what the enemy wishes you to do, for this reason alone, that he desires it; avoid a battlefield he has reconnoitered and studied and, with even more reason, ground that he has fortified and where he is entrenched."
-- Napoleon: Maxims of War
Recently, in a short article regarding the massacre of Iraqi national guardsmen, I noted that, because it is a sanctuary for Islamoterrorists and a symbol of their power, "Fallujah must fall."
Now U.S. forces including Marines, Army, some special units and Iraqi troops are tightening the noose around the so-called "City of Mosques." Indeed, as this article is coming up on the TCS "front page" this morning some forays into the city have already been made.
Air and artillery strikes against "strongpoints" in the city have been increasing in frequency and intensity. Press reports and television news footage often show destroyed or damaged buildings and there inevitably will be reports of what may or may not be "civilian casualties." It is difficult to assess the degree to which these strikes have actually killed fighters and vitiated the insurgents' combat capability.
In any case, Fallujah promises to be a bloody, vicious fight. One press report led with a U.S. Marine surgeon's alleged statement that the American casualty rate "probably will reach levels not seen since Vietnam."
Estimates of the size of the terrorist force inside the "ring" range from 1000 to 5000. It remains to be seen whether the Islamofascist fighters will be as suicidally dedicated as, say, the Japanese on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, but if past experience in Iraq is any indicator some portion of them will be.
And, worse, they have had time to prepare -- many months in which to anticipate where and how they will meet the "crusaders" and their "apostate" Iraqi allies. They have planted explosive booby traps and rigged car bombs. They have keyed their defense to those sites which they know Americans will be reluctant to engage -- school buildings, hospitals, and of course the city's many mosques and holy sites.
Some of these efforts will be (and in some cases have been) obviated by the work of our special units (Seals, etc.). And the proven ability of modern American weapons and surveillance technology to "shape" the battlefield may palliate to some extent the challenges of Napoleon's maxim. But Fallujah and its environs will still present some treacherous real estate for American troops.
In the April fighting in Fallujah, the insurgents showed a grasp of urban combat basics, such as the fortifying of houses or buildings that command strategic intersections of the city. They also showed no compunction about using ambulances and school buses to move fighters from strongpoint to strongpoint, or using the remaining civilians (city population: about 300,000) as shields and foils in street fighting.
Many insurgents killed in the April street battles were Fallujah "locals," young men (some probably ex-Iraqi soldiers) fired to a combative fervor by their imams but fatally ignorant of how to fight against a trained force. But there was behind them a core of veteran Arab terrorists with Al Qaeda training and good basic military skills.
What these leaders and experienced fighters will do as the assault on the city approaches, presents one of the most intriguing aspects of the "defense" of Fallujah.
The possibility cannot be discounted that any Al Qaeda "foreign legionnaires" and fighters loyal to Jordanian jihadofanatic Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may already be trickling out of Fallujah. They may melt away with the intention of reconstituting somewhere else and fighting some other day.
In fact, from the standpoint of guerrilla warfare, that would be considered the wise strategic move. One of the subtle paradoxes of effective insurgency is that the guerrillas should not concentrate forces in one place lest they become the target for one fatal blow against them.
And if the terrorists stay in Fallujah they will certainly be decimated. Car bombings and beheadings have their own terrible power but al-Zarqawi's fighters will find that street fighting with Marines has a terrible inevitability.
In "classic" guerrilla warfare, the terrorists would avoid such a circumstance by not being wedded to territory. Their headquarters would be in their pockets. They would disperse; move "among the people." They would follow the dictum of that consummate guerrilla, the Confederate John S. Mosby:
"Having no fixed lines to guard or defined territory to hold, it was always my policy to elude the enemy when they came in search of me, and carry the war into their own camps."
So, this is the puzzle of Fallujah. Has the "Islamic Republic" established there become such a symbol to the insurgents that they must now stay and defend it? And have they in fact put down such logistical and financial roots in the city that they are militarily tied there?
Or might al-Zarqawi and whoever else represents the "military" leadership stage a sort of Potemkin defense -- whipping hundreds of young Sunni men there into a fatalistic frenzy and letting them die in the streets while the more experienced fighters escape?
It is completely within the cast of the Islamoterrorist leaders' thinking to cynically decide that, since Fallujah will eventually fall, it can fall as a symbolic city of young martyrs.
A few experienced, hard-core fighters would remain to guide and goad those chosen for the slaughter. Given the nature of this kind of warfare (car and roadside bombs, suicidal snipers etc.) such a force would still be able to exact daunting casualties on U.S. and Iraqi troops. Meanwhile, the main element of the terrorist forces, the veterans, will have moved on to reconstitute itself elsewhere.
It is hoped that troops in the American cordon are ruthlessly screening and sifting all the "civilians" fleeing the area in case this conjecture is correct.
The legendary Arab insurgent leader T. E. Lawrence described the characteristics of a guerrilla force as "speed and endurance, ubiquity and independence of arteries of supply." The "ubiquity" of al-Zarqawi and his fighters - their presence as a force to be reckoned with in Iraq -- will be severely compromised or eliminated if they choose to stay and fight in Fallujah.
Let us hope that some kind of Islamic hubris has painted them into a difficult and ultimately fatal corner.
By Ralph Kinney Bennett Published 11/08/2004
"Never do what the enemy wishes you to do, for this reason alone, that he desires it; avoid a battlefield he has reconnoitered and studied and, with even more reason, ground that he has fortified and where he is entrenched."
-- Napoleon: Maxims of War
Recently, in a short article regarding the massacre of Iraqi national guardsmen, I noted that, because it is a sanctuary for Islamoterrorists and a symbol of their power, "Fallujah must fall."
Now U.S. forces including Marines, Army, some special units and Iraqi troops are tightening the noose around the so-called "City of Mosques." Indeed, as this article is coming up on the TCS "front page" this morning some forays into the city have already been made.
Air and artillery strikes against "strongpoints" in the city have been increasing in frequency and intensity. Press reports and television news footage often show destroyed or damaged buildings and there inevitably will be reports of what may or may not be "civilian casualties." It is difficult to assess the degree to which these strikes have actually killed fighters and vitiated the insurgents' combat capability.
In any case, Fallujah promises to be a bloody, vicious fight. One press report led with a U.S. Marine surgeon's alleged statement that the American casualty rate "probably will reach levels not seen since Vietnam."
Estimates of the size of the terrorist force inside the "ring" range from 1000 to 5000. It remains to be seen whether the Islamofascist fighters will be as suicidally dedicated as, say, the Japanese on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, but if past experience in Iraq is any indicator some portion of them will be.
And, worse, they have had time to prepare -- many months in which to anticipate where and how they will meet the "crusaders" and their "apostate" Iraqi allies. They have planted explosive booby traps and rigged car bombs. They have keyed their defense to those sites which they know Americans will be reluctant to engage -- school buildings, hospitals, and of course the city's many mosques and holy sites.
Some of these efforts will be (and in some cases have been) obviated by the work of our special units (Seals, etc.). And the proven ability of modern American weapons and surveillance technology to "shape" the battlefield may palliate to some extent the challenges of Napoleon's maxim. But Fallujah and its environs will still present some treacherous real estate for American troops.
In the April fighting in Fallujah, the insurgents showed a grasp of urban combat basics, such as the fortifying of houses or buildings that command strategic intersections of the city. They also showed no compunction about using ambulances and school buses to move fighters from strongpoint to strongpoint, or using the remaining civilians (city population: about 300,000) as shields and foils in street fighting.
Many insurgents killed in the April street battles were Fallujah "locals," young men (some probably ex-Iraqi soldiers) fired to a combative fervor by their imams but fatally ignorant of how to fight against a trained force. But there was behind them a core of veteran Arab terrorists with Al Qaeda training and good basic military skills.
What these leaders and experienced fighters will do as the assault on the city approaches, presents one of the most intriguing aspects of the "defense" of Fallujah.
The possibility cannot be discounted that any Al Qaeda "foreign legionnaires" and fighters loyal to Jordanian jihadofanatic Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may already be trickling out of Fallujah. They may melt away with the intention of reconstituting somewhere else and fighting some other day.
In fact, from the standpoint of guerrilla warfare, that would be considered the wise strategic move. One of the subtle paradoxes of effective insurgency is that the guerrillas should not concentrate forces in one place lest they become the target for one fatal blow against them.
And if the terrorists stay in Fallujah they will certainly be decimated. Car bombings and beheadings have their own terrible power but al-Zarqawi's fighters will find that street fighting with Marines has a terrible inevitability.
In "classic" guerrilla warfare, the terrorists would avoid such a circumstance by not being wedded to territory. Their headquarters would be in their pockets. They would disperse; move "among the people." They would follow the dictum of that consummate guerrilla, the Confederate John S. Mosby:
"Having no fixed lines to guard or defined territory to hold, it was always my policy to elude the enemy when they came in search of me, and carry the war into their own camps."
So, this is the puzzle of Fallujah. Has the "Islamic Republic" established there become such a symbol to the insurgents that they must now stay and defend it? And have they in fact put down such logistical and financial roots in the city that they are militarily tied there?
Or might al-Zarqawi and whoever else represents the "military" leadership stage a sort of Potemkin defense -- whipping hundreds of young Sunni men there into a fatalistic frenzy and letting them die in the streets while the more experienced fighters escape?
It is completely within the cast of the Islamoterrorist leaders' thinking to cynically decide that, since Fallujah will eventually fall, it can fall as a symbolic city of young martyrs.
A few experienced, hard-core fighters would remain to guide and goad those chosen for the slaughter. Given the nature of this kind of warfare (car and roadside bombs, suicidal snipers etc.) such a force would still be able to exact daunting casualties on U.S. and Iraqi troops. Meanwhile, the main element of the terrorist forces, the veterans, will have moved on to reconstitute itself elsewhere.
It is hoped that troops in the American cordon are ruthlessly screening and sifting all the "civilians" fleeing the area in case this conjecture is correct.
The legendary Arab insurgent leader T. E. Lawrence described the characteristics of a guerrilla force as "speed and endurance, ubiquity and independence of arteries of supply." The "ubiquity" of al-Zarqawi and his fighters - their presence as a force to be reckoned with in Iraq -- will be severely compromised or eliminated if they choose to stay and fight in Fallujah.
Let us hope that some kind of Islamic hubris has painted them into a difficult and ultimately fatal corner.
S
Spartacus
Guest
Enemy resistance in Fallujah is starting to collapse, with US forces deep inside the city and fighters pulling back to their ultimate stronghold in the Jolan district. There is no more room to retreat with the Euphrates to the west and American forces on every side.
Troops have been advancing towards the center, fighting insurgents armed with rifles and mortars street by street. Early on Tuesday the US-led troops reached a key objective early -- a mosque in the north part of Falluja. ... The BBC's Paul Wood, embedded with US soldiers - and whose reporting is subject to military restrictions - says US-led forces reached their first major objective early on Tuesday, when they surrounded al-Hidra mosque in the northern parts of Falluja. The US military said the building was being used as an arms depot and a meeting point for the leaders of the insurgency. Our correspondent says Iraqi forces fighting alongside US marines will storm it.
Earlier, a US tank commander said guerrillas were putting up a strong fight in the north-western Jolan district. "These people are hardcore," Capt Robert Bodisch told Reuters news agency. "A man pulled out from behind a wall and fired an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade) at my tank. I have to get another tank to go back in there."
"I can see heavy street-fighting from my house in the center of the city -- US soldiers are here, moving from house to house", according to BBC reporter Fadil Badrani.
Troops have been advancing towards the center, fighting insurgents armed with rifles and mortars street by street. Early on Tuesday the US-led troops reached a key objective early -- a mosque in the north part of Falluja. ... The BBC's Paul Wood, embedded with US soldiers - and whose reporting is subject to military restrictions - says US-led forces reached their first major objective early on Tuesday, when they surrounded al-Hidra mosque in the northern parts of Falluja. The US military said the building was being used as an arms depot and a meeting point for the leaders of the insurgency. Our correspondent says Iraqi forces fighting alongside US marines will storm it.
Earlier, a US tank commander said guerrillas were putting up a strong fight in the north-western Jolan district. "These people are hardcore," Capt Robert Bodisch told Reuters news agency. "A man pulled out from behind a wall and fired an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade) at my tank. I have to get another tank to go back in there."
"I can see heavy street-fighting from my house in the center of the city -- US soldiers are here, moving from house to house", according to BBC reporter Fadil Badrani.
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