Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Apparently the following is a "controversial" statement

my response is no it doesn't, and high school students take classes such biology, chemistry, technical writing, physics, math, and computer science that give them a solid base of knowledge, teach them to think critically, and prepare them for higher education.

Then why are they reading at an 8th grade level, a 20% illiteracy rate with an education that cost 26k a year? Why does a high school graduate not understand how to convert from base 10 to base 2 or 8 until they reach college when it is required curriculum? My nephew wants to attend a high end school in CS and he's advanced beyond his classification, he understands base 10 very well, and took geometry in the 9th grade; I introduced him to the basics of trigonometry this summer but he'll have to fight through Algebra II before Calculus. Regardless, his CS classes were terrible at teaching him the skills he requires. Teaching someone to be a "code monkey" when they really want to do development/engineering retards their development.

Someone with a BS in CS doesn't have the basic skills for the job in the real world. The MIT coursework, course notes and materials are available online for free, is a far more "real world" approach. I attend an award winning state school in CS but when you look at the curriculum of the Web Development course it's pathetic compared to MIT. The MIT syllabus expects a group project integrating technologies to create an Amazon level web application. My school expects individual students to demonstrate the use of current technologies in a relatively non-integrated way; Small projects that don't address enterprise level issues.
 
Last edited:
Because Libertarians and GOP have been gutting the education system..... You support them....

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!
 
Someone with a BS in CS doesn't have the basic skills for the job in the real world. The MIT coursework, course notes and materials are available online for free, is a far more "real world" approach. I attend an award winning state school in CS but when you look at the curriculum of the Web Development course it's pathetic compared to MIT. The MIT syllabus expects a group project integrating technologies to create an Amazon level web application. My school expects individual students to demonstrate the use of current technologies in a relatively non-integrated way; Small projects that don't address enterprise level issues.

do some research beforehand then, and find a better program. you're comparing MIT, maybe the top school in the country for CS, to what I'm guessing is OSU, which I'm sure doesn't even crack the top 20. if you want to do a meaningful comparison of public and private schools for an education in CS, then you should also be looking at the top public schools - like Cal and UT Austin. I list those schools because i know they're good, and i know several CS majors from both who landed great jobs.
 
Then why are they reading at an 8th grade level, a 20% illiteracy rate with an education that cost 26k a year? Why does a high school graduate not understand how to convert from base 10 to base 2 or 8 until they reach college when it is required curriculum? My nephew wants to attend a high end school in CS and he's advanced beyond his classification, he understands base 10 very well, and took geometry in the 9th grade; I introduced him to the basics of trigonometry this summer but he'll have to fight through Algebra II before Calculus. Regardless, his CS classes were terrible at teaching him the skills he requires. Teaching someone to be a "code monkey" when they really want to do development/engineering retards their development.

high school isn't meant to prepare you for a career in a technical field right after graduation, it is meant to give a good foundation for specialization later. it would be a huge waste of resources to teach everyone how to do everything.

and i'm pretty sure you pulled the illiteracy rate statistic out of your ass
 
high school isn't meant to prepare you for a career in a technical field right after graduation, it is meant to give a good foundation for specialization later. it would be a huge waste of resources to teach everyone how to do everything.

and i'm pretty sure you pulled the illiteracy rate statistic out of your ass

since Jave is notorious for pulling statistics out of his ass, it should be an automatic requirement for him to provide a link to any and every stat he posts from this point forward.
 
that might be the dumbest looking dog I've ever seen


Yeah because most dogs have this uber smart look on their faces...wow you must be like super smart to have picked up on the rare dog that doesn't look like he's about to do your taxes and advise you on your next round of investments. Brown should totally take him back to the pound cause "he don't look too smart". :lmao:



hows your fleshlight theory coming along mate, still working on it? cause i like remember thinking how super smart you came off talking about putting a fleshlight on the end of rifle, for some unexplainable reason, I could never coax an explanation out of you.
 
that might be the dumbest looking dog I've ever seen
The Top 10 Smartest Dog Breeds In The World

Refer to #1 and #5 I have both....
#5 has a Higher IQ than the entire state of Georgia combined.

Brown should totally take him back to the pound cause "he don't look too smart". :lmao: .
Bought the Doberman from someone, the other is from the Rescue.

Now Can we Ignore Zwhits trolling and get on topic. Obviously the entire Conversation is well over his head.
 
when i look at your dog all i want to say "whos a good boy, who's a good boy" while doling out behind the ear scratches. :lmao:

looks like an awesome dog. Love that breed.
 
high school isn't meant to prepare you for a career in a technical field right after graduation, it is meant to give a good foundation for specialization later. it would be a huge waste of resources to teach everyone how to do everything.

and i'm pretty sure you pulled the illiteracy rate statistic out of your ass

Literacy study: 1 in 7 U.S. adults are unable to read this story - USATODAY.com

"A long-awaited federal study finds that an estimated 32 million adults in the USA — about one in seven — are saddled with such low literacy skills that it would be tough for them to read anything more challenging than a children's picture book or to understand a medication's side effects listed on a pill bottle. "

03-025 (e-Government)

"According to national literacy statistics, half of Americans read at the eighth-grade level or lower. "


Kirsch IS, Jungeblut A, Jenkins L, Kolstad A. Adult Literacy in America. National Center for Education Statistics, U. S. Department of Education, September, 1993, Washington,D.C.

" During 1992, the National Center for Education Statistics, in cooperation with the Educational Testing Service (ETS), conducted a National Adult Literacy Survey (NALS) to "profile the English literacy of adults in the United States based on their performance across a wide array of tasks that reflect the types of materials and demands they encounter in their daily lives" (Kirsch et al. 1993, p. xiii). The study resulted in information on types and levels of literacy skills and the variation in skills across major subgroups in the population. The report explores and analyzes connections between literacy skills and variables such as voting, economic status, weeks worked, and earnings. In addition, the survey characterizes literacy skills in terms of demographics and personal background; characterizes the work force with respect to literacy skills by various occupational categories; compares results with those from other literacy surveys; interprets findings related to information processing skills; and provides increased understanding of the skills and knowledge associated with functioning in a technological society (NCES 1993).
.

According to this survey, the average adult in the U.S. reads between the 8th and 9th grade reading levels."

National Center for Education Statistics

Education Information Branch

Office of Educational Research and Improvement

U.S. Department of Education

555 New Jersey Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20208-5641

(800) 424-1616
 
Defend the public education system. How is the Chicago outcomes and teacher strike working out for Chicago children? How dare Rombo ask for accountability for teachers; it's all about the children you idiots, no matter the cost; Teacher accountability hurts the children.:rolleyes:
 
high school isn't meant to prepare you for a career in a technical field right after graduation, it is meant to give a good foundation for specialization later. it would be a huge waste of resources to teach everyone how to do everything.

and i'm pretty sure you pulled the illiteracy rate statistic out of your ass

After twelve years of mathematics one could reasonably expect a young person to be well versed in basic algebra and english?


Report: Many high school grads not ?college ready? Local News The Herald Bulletin

"The report, released Monday, shows almost one-third of all Indiana high school graduates who attended the state’s public colleges and universities had to take remedial courses in math and/or English before they could take college-level courses."
 
A scientist needs to roll up their sleeves and question the gatekeepers of knowledge. As the philosopher Taylor Swift says, "Assume that you don't know what you don't know." :)
 
well those are definitely pretty dismal stats on literacy. thanks. although 1 in 7 is only 14% =P
You find that acceptable after 150 years of government controlled education?

You're quibbling about basic literacy; 99% of all philosophical disagreements can be solved by defining terminology.

National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - What is NAAL?

ProLiteracy

1 in 5 is 80%; Just sayin...

One in Five Adults in Indianapolis can't read this webpage.

Many people can't believe that one in five adults struggle with reading. We have received these numbers from the government survey conducted by the National Assessment of Adult Literacy (National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - What is NAAL?). Their methods for data collection are included there.

According to their study, nationally, 14% of adults (30 million) read at what they consider a "below basic" level.

Another great reference is the ProLiteracy website at ProLiteracy

There are many discussions about how to define literacy levels. What is important to recognize is that 20% of adults in Indianapolis do read below a sixth grade level. (Detroit generally is considered to have the highest level of functionally illiterate adults, at 53%) This does NOT mean that they don't know their alphabet or can not read basic street signs, but what it does mean is that they struggle significantly with their reading. They do not read quickly or accurately. Comprehension, of a newspaper, or even a billboard, is an issue.

For example, the standard for being able to comprehend a newspaper article is generally considered to be a sixth grade reading level, so though an adult who is reading at a 3rd or 4th grade level can read many of the words, they read so slowly, and with so much difficulty, they are unable to understand the content. Adults reading at this level find it near impossible to fill out a job application form, get a driver's license, read their prescriptions, or study for a GED.

Literacy is not an either/or issue as much as it is a continuum.

Additionally:


IPS has the lowest graduation rate in the country for White male students and Black male students.

The average reading level for American adults is 8th grade.

Only 31% of eight graders in the nation are reading at their grade level.

70% of inmates struggle with reading.

In the past ten years the average literacy level required for all American jobs rose by 14 percent.

The U.S. Department of Education predicts that in the next decade this literacy gap will produce a shortage of 12 million qualified workers.

Health care costs for an adult who can not read are FOUR times greater annually than for a literate adult.

More adults in Indiana between 18-25 will declare bankruptcy in the next year than will graduate from college.

Literacy is an educational, health, economic, and family issue.


Literacy is a community issue.
Copyright 2008-2012. Making Indianapolis 100% Literate. All rights reserved.
 
Last edited:
Defend the public education system. How is the Chicago outcomes and teacher strike working out for Chicago children? How dare Rombo ask for accountability for teachers; it's all about the children you idiots, no matter the cost; Teacher accountability hurts the children.:rolleyes:

Why don't you become a teacher then?
 
Public Schools vs. Private Schools: New Study Says There is No Difference

Since the United States is barely mediocre compared to other industrialized countries with public school systems, obviously the problem is not that its public.

The problem is the Republican party. Set up a program to fail, then point at it as a failure.
While other countries hold their education systems as crucial parts of their culture and their future, Republicans find the whole education concept a bit over rated, and not worth paying for.
 
Defend the public education system. How is the Chicago outcomes and teacher strike working out for Chicago children? How dare Rombo ask for accountability for teachers; it's all about the children you idiots, no matter the cost; Teacher accountability hurts the children.:rolleyes:

If you think pegging all teacher accountability to standardized test scores is somehow good for the children youre an idiot.

I say that not knowing what the proper solution is...but I know that standardized test scores arent it.
 
If you think pegging all teacher accountability to standardized test scores is somehow good for the children youre an idiot.

I say that not knowing what the proper solution is...but I know that standardized test scores arent it.
Indeed, my stepdaughter is a fantastic example of the fail on that score. The last time she took standardized testing in high school her math and related science skills tested severely deficient. Yet her language skills all scored dramatically above grade level. The school only looks at the cumulative total, in which case she comes out nearly "average", instead of addressing the glaring disparity.
 
java, you have caught on to the fact that all these countries that are beating us all have socialized school systems right? you are obsessed with proving the free market has the solution for absolutely ever corner of society and it just simply doesn't. If we privatized the school system all inner city schools would close within days never to be reopened. When you subject education to the profit motive, what are the margins in the inner cities?

This is a cultural thing people, no more no less. Our society is broken, i would argue it has been for a very very long time...but it's almost beyond debate that it is now. Everything is a distortion here....everything has to be done to excess. I am a free market capitalist pig where it's appropriate and i am a complete marxist monkey where that's appropriate. There are places in an economy where each ideology shines and there are places where they each fail miserably.
 
java, you have caught on to the fact that all these countries that are beating us all have socialized school systems right? you are obsessed with proving the free market has the solution for absolutely ever corner of society and it just simply doesn't. If we privatized the school system all inner city schools would close within days never to be reopened. When you subject education to the profit motive, what are the margins in the inner cities?

This is a cultural thing people, no more no less. Our society is broken, i would argue it has been for a very very long time...but it's almost beyond debate that it is now. Everything is a distortion here....everything has to be done to excess. I am a free market capitalist pig where it's appropriate and i am a complete marxist monkey where that's appropriate. There are places in an economy where each ideology shines and there are places where they each fail miserably.

are they really beating us?

most countries separate children at an early age, between those who demonstrate the capability for high academic achievement and those who do not. we used to do that, but we don't anymore. so, if you compare the results of our non-stratified system to the results of the best-of-the-best in a stratified system, what kind of outcome do you suppose that analysis will yield?

a group containing all of our students is compared to a group of strictly academic students...apples and oranges?
 
i read somewhere that really only our elite preppies can hang in the same classrooms with some of these countries now, and these are normal public school students. So yeah, pretty sure we're gettin beat and it's not just our public school kids that are dragging everything down.



are they really beating us?

most countries separate children at an early age, between those who demonstrate the capability for high academic achievement and those who do not. we used to do that, but we don't anymore. so, if you compare the results of our non-stratified system to the results of the best-of-the-best in a stratified system, what kind of outcome do you suppose that analysis will yield?

a group containing all of our students is compared to a group of strictly academic students...apples and oranges?
 
If you think pegging all teacher accountability to standardized test scores is somehow good for the children youre an idiot.

I say that not knowing what the proper solution is...but I know that standardized test scores arent it.

Standardized test scores are going to determine how children are given a life path by colleges, a 28 ACT got me admitted automatically into the History program as an undergrad and a 167 LSAT got me into law school. Data have shown these tests are predictive of academic outcomes. IMO, the only reason I wasn't held back in 1st grade was my good score on the standardized test even though my teacher was horrible and I learned nothing, I had my previous experience before public education. In my experience, successful entrepreneurs don't use "book smarts" but an ability to understand what people like and demand; I've consulted with highly educated businessmen and others with nothing more than a HS diploma and that's the trait they share. One of the "dumbest" people I've met is a successful owner of two restaurants but he knows how to market.
 
java, you have caught on to the fact that all these countries that are beating us all have socialized school systems right? you are obsessed with proving the free market has the solution for absolutely ever corner of society and it just simply doesn't. If we privatized the school system all inner city schools would close within days never to be reopened. When you subject education to the profit motive, what are the margins in the inner cities?

This is a cultural thing people, no more no less. Our society is broken, i would argue it has been for a very very long time...but it's almost beyond debate that it is now. Everything is a distortion here....everything has to be done to excess. I am a free market capitalist pig where it's appropriate and i am a complete marxist monkey where that's appropriate. There are places in an economy where each ideology shines and there are places where they each fail miserably.

Why can the market deliver you a pizza in under 30 minutes, or it's free, but not an education that is valuable in a free market?

Why is society "broken?" Who is educating all these broken people? I would trust Walmart to deliver me a good education over the government because I would have a choice to leave Walmart for Kohls or Target.
 
Standardized test scores are going to determine how children are given a life path by colleges, a 28 ACT got me admitted automatically into the History program as an undergrad and a 167 LSAT got me into law school. Data have shown these tests are predictive of academic outcomes. IMO, the only reason I wasn't held back in 1st grade was my good score on the standardized test even though my teacher was horrible and I learned nothing, I had my previous experience before public education. In my experience, successful entrepreneurs don't use "book smarts" but an ability to understand what people like and demand; I've consulted with highly educated businessmen and others with nothing more than a HS diploma and that's the trait they share. One of the "dumbest" people I've met is a successful owner of two restaurants but he knows how to market.

youre assuming that everybody wants to be an entrepreneur.

As someone who runs a business that supports them, I can tell you its definitely not for everyone...or even anywhere close to the majority. Methinks we could agree on that.
 
Why can the market deliver you a pizza in under 30 minutes, or it's free, but not an education that is valuable in a free market?

Why is society "broken?" Who is educating all these broken people? I would trust Walmart to deliver me a good education over the government because I would have a choice to leave Walmart for Kohls or Target.


because pizza and education hold two and completely utterly seperate corners of the economy. FFS java, pizza? Ur seriously equating making a fucking pizza and getting it out the door in 15minutes with educating millions of children throughout an 8 hour school day 200 some days out of the year...?? So because Herman Cain makes pizza you think he could easily transfer that expertise into running a school system?

I mean java you just showed what is one of my major gripes with free market honks...you all think success with one section of society means it works for everything.
 
i read somewhere that really only our elite preppies can hang in the same classrooms with some of these countries now, and these are normal public school students. So yeah, pretty sure we're gettin beat and it's not just our public school kids that are dragging everything down.

don't kid yourself, the caste system is alive and well in every country in the world but ours...and those education statistics are derived by comparing our entire system, to the best that the other systems have to offer.

kids in china that have been pigeon-holed as future factory workers aren't included in the statistics that we compare our education system too.
 
ollololllo @ comparing a pizza delivery to education system.
 
ollololllo @ comparing a pizza delivery to education system.


I know right, by and large I don't mind java but this shit makes me just rub my temples sometime. But two of my best friends are econs and one of does stuff for the von mises institute so i get the same arguments. They treat everything like a basic commodity....it makes life simpler for them somehow, i dunno.
 
don't kid yourself, the caste system is alive and well in every country in the world but ours...and those education statistics are derived by comparing our entire system, to the best that the other systems have to offer.

kids in china that have been pigeon-holed as future factory workers aren't included in the statistics that we compare our education system too.


C'mon digi, these countries listed below..in order...are not communist despots mapping out the lives of children by the time they're 4. FFS we're gettin beat by the fucking canadians? what the shit? so basically we're even getting owned on our continent. Bunch of commies all of em, how dare those marxists socialistically educate their children properly.


1 Korea
2 Finland
3 Canada
4 New Zealand
5 Ireland
6 Australia
7 Poland1
8 Sweden
9 Netherlands
10 Belgium
11 Switzerland
12 Japan
13 United Kingdom 4
14 Germany
15 Denmark
16 OECD average
17 Austria
18 France
19 Iceland
20 Norway
21 Czech Republic1
22 Hungary
23 Luxembourg
24 Portugal1
25 Italy
26 Slovak Republic
27 Spain
28 Greece
29 Turkey1
30 Russian Federation
31 Mexico
32 Brazil1
33 United States
 
C'mon digi, these countries listed below..in order...are not communist despots mapping out the lives of children by the time they're 4. FFS we're gettin beat by the fucking canadians? what the shit? so basically we're even getting owned on our continent. Bunch of commies all of em, how dare those marxists socialistically educate their children properly.


1 Korea
2 Finland
3 Canada
4 New Zealand
5 Ireland
6 Australia
7 Poland1
8 Sweden
9 Netherlands
10 Belgium
11 Switzerland
12 Japan
13 United Kingdom 4
14 Germany
15 Denmark
16 OECD average
17 Austria
18 France
19 Iceland
20 Norway
21 Czech Republic1
22 Hungary
23 Luxembourg
24 Portugal1
25 Italy
26 Slovak Republic
27 Spain
28 Greece
29 Turkey1
30 Russian Federation
31 Mexico
32 Brazil1
33 United States

nope...they're not communist...but they all separate children at a very young age, based on their indicated aptitude (talk to department of ed people...that's where my info is from)...here? fuck, you can get c's and still end up being president of the united states!

the statistics from those other countries are segregated...you are not getting to see the whole picture...in fact, in most of those places you couldn't find out the rest of the story if you wanted to. and the fucked up thing is, it's not that those country's systems are actively trying to bury that information...they just don't even bother with it...why keep academic achievement statistics for non-academics? it would be a waste of time and money...the u.s. is the only country that would bother tracking that sort of information, if for no other reason than to have another office, with paid government employees, to track shit.
 
Last edited:
youre assuming that everybody wants to be an entrepreneur.

As someone who runs a business that supports them, I can tell you its definitely not for everyone...or even anywhere close to the majority. Methinks we could agree on that.

Specialization of labor is the foundation of civilization so we can agree on that premise. What annoys me is this characterization of capitalism that everyone is an island by Barry. Every successful entrepreneur understands specialization of labor and the importance of cooperation.
 
ollololllo @ comparing a pizza delivery to education system.

Why is one good or service "special?"

The market provides food and shoes for the "common good" and both are more essential to a healthy existence.

Why not have communism in food and shoe production?

Why is primary education the one area communism is needed?

The True Cost of Public Education.


Notice that LA United spends more than Beverly Hills per student. The pricing problem is why communism will always fail to produce good outcomes. The central planners in the Soviet Union looked to western commodities markets and Sears catalogs for planning; Otherwise, they would have collapsed long before the late 1980's.

If a producer gave you a guarantee that your child would be able to take college level classes without remedial work in 10 years Vs. 12 years in a public system without a guarantee which which would you choose?

I was tracked to be a local by my public education system in my freshman year of high school, I took the PSAT with sub par math skills, which meant a blue collar job according to my guidance counselor that gave me the professions I should pursue as determined by the government, nothing wrong with an honest days work, but I scratched and clawed my way by standardized test scores to a masters level education and then educated myself in my current profession which has a lesser prestige value than what I clawed my way toward but I'm content; A degree isn't an end to itself.
 
Last edited:
Why is one good or service "special?"

The market provides food and shoes for the "common good" and both are more essential to a healthy existence.

Why not have communism in food and shoe production?

Why is primary education the one area communism is needed?

.


it's the complexity of the good or service java. It's fucking pizza, why can't you wrap your head around the difference between pizza and education? And perhaps you haven't noticed but the free market is in the process of ruining our very DNA. In 10-20 years 1 in 4 children in this nation will be born with either type 1 or 2 diabetes. This is the direct result of our food system. They have "cut" our food, just like any good drug dealer, to the point where generations now of built up insulin resistance is being passed on to our kids through epigenetics, look it up. Once our kids are born with this it's locked into our DNA. The ramifications of that are staggering. Breeding generations of children that will require insulin shots to live.....this is the result of the profit motive infecting the food supply java. It's precisely an area where the free market completely and utterly fails. They spent billions figuring out how to cut food with fillers and god knows what else so they make more bottom line....and this is the end result. Children on insulin since they're born sure sounds like progress to me.
 
I'm gonna require some hard documentation that Canada, Finland, New Zealand (I know a few kiwis well), australia....places like that are seperating their children.


nope...they're not communist...but they all separate children at a very young age, based on their indicated aptitude (talk to department of ed people...that's where my info is from)...here? fuck, you can get c's and still end up being president of the united states!

the statistics from those other countries are segregated...you are not getting to see the whole picture...in fact, in most of those places you couldn't find out the rest of the story if you wanted to. and the fucked up thing is, it's not that those country's systems are actively trying to bury that information...they just don't even bother with it...why keep academic achievement statistics for non-academics? it would be a waste of time and money...the u.s. is the only country that would bother tracking that sort of information, if for no other reason than to have another office, with paid government employees, to track shit.
 
I'm gonna require some hard documentation that Canada, Finland, New Zealand (I know a few kiwis well), australia....places like that are seperating their children.

pffft...when you and i were in grade school, we did that here too...you always knew exactly who the accelerated kids were and you always knew exactly who the accelerated teachers were too...why is it so hard for you to believe that we are the only ones that have abandoned that system??
 
pffft...when you and i were in grade school, we did that here too...you always knew exactly who the accelerated kids were and you always knew exactly who the accelerated teachers were too...why is it so hard for you to believe that we are the only ones that have abandoned that system??


Well i went to private catholic school and we never had that. There was a small building out back where the slower kids went for remedial lessons. BUt I know what you're talking about does go on. Where i'm going to see hard documentation is that these countries are having the accelerated kids "only" counted and the U.S is having all the kids taken into account. You would think there would be more of a stink made here in this country about our education numbers then if it came out that all the other countries were only counting their honors kids. I'm not 100% sure but I don't Japan, for instance, is only counting their honors students. This would be dishonorable for them and an embarrassment if it came out. I don't think they even need to count their honors students. THey are 100% socialized school system as well.
 
There was a guy who came to this very board some 7 years ago. He was a real idiot by most standards here. People in general here thought he was a fool. He acted like a fool. He told stories of his life that made him sound like a fool and an idiot. Pictures of his home showed dirty bedsheets hanging as curtains and worn out furniture. He hadn't even graduated high school, had an 8th or 9th grade education and was a belligerent drunkard. He had been in trouble with the law on multiple occasions, and had his license revoked. Some people hated him, others laughed at him, but a few (not many) genuinely liked him, though they still didn't think he would amount to anything. This guy was poor, and he had a wife and kids to support. He didn't come from money either. He couldn't get a loan or handout from his parents or her parents. He was wasted most of the time and couldn't even string together a coherent sentence.

Well, he got in trouble again and was on house arrest. He certainly couldn't work if he couldn't even leave the house! What was he going to do? He spent a lot of time on EF, and now he was about to be here non-stop. He started trying to make friends and be helpful instead of being a dick all the time (though he still did his fair share of that too). He developed a lot of friends and a bit of a following here. He started a business with the help of a couple people whom he had met at EF, and now takes in revenues to the tune of a million or so a year.

Anyone who has been here 6 years or more probably remembers what a huge, douchebag, tool needto was when he came to EF. Nobody ever thought he would amount to shit. Now he runs this place, next to Rick and GS. He got tired of being broke and making excuses I guess. I know he got tired of listening to his wife bitch about him being broke and getting arrested and whatever else. He decided to do something with what was available to him at the time. Since then, sure...more opportunities have opened up to him. And he still fucks up from time to time, but is someone we all know that overcame the odds that were stacked against him. He's not wealthy, but he's not doing too bad. I'm sure a lot of people here wish they had a little million dollar a year business too. The question is, what will they do about it? Most will do nothing. It is too hard...it is impossible...if you say it is.
 
Well i went to private catholic school and we never had that. There was a small building out back where the slower kids went for remedial lessons. BUt I know what you're talking about does go on. Where i'm going to see hard documentation is that these countries are having the accelerated kids "only" counted and the U.S is having all the kids taken into account. You would think there would be more of a stink made here in this country about our education numbers then if it came out that all the other countries were only counting their honors kids. I'm not 100% sure but I don't Japan, for instance, is only counting their honors students. This would be dishonorable for them and an embarrassment if it came out. I don't think they even need to count their honors students. THey are 100% socialized school system as well.

oh, i'm not saying that it's just their "honors" students...rather, the comparison is all of our students and their college-bound-type students...like i said, it's not some sinister act that's going on...they report the statistics for their academics...we report our statistics for everyone...and it's gotten even more skewed with no-child-left-behind, because u.s. students that were formerly in special ed are now in regular classrooms for many of their classes...so now, you not only have non-academics being compared to academics, you also have children with learning disabilities being compared to academics.

another unwanted by-product of no-child-left-behind is the dumbing-down (if you will) of our honor's students...because they are now in classrooms with children who were formerly in special ed, they (our honor's students) are the slowest growing (with regard to annual progress) group of students in our education system...teachers are unable to properly challenge them, because so much of their time is consumed with the slower learners.

this stuff is all real...i've sat in on enough education seminars and heard the same stories enough times now, that i believe that there is a high degree of truth and accuracy in what i've heard/learned.
 
ok you're losing me here digi....are they or are they not only counting their honors students, ie college bound, and we're counting all of our students? I mean how exactly are you quantifying "college bound"? cause here kids don't have to be honors students to be college bound.
 
ok you're losing me here digi....are they or are they not only counting their honors students, ie college bound, and we're counting all of our students? I mean how exactly are you quantifying "college bound"? cause here kids don't have to be honors students to be college bound.

they are counting their "academics"...those that are college bound (i.e., not in a trade-based program)...and we are counting all of our kids...even the ones with learning disabilities who are now in regular classrooms, due to no-child-left-behind (which was a bush administration policy, btw).
 
they are counting their "academics"...those that are college bound (i.e., not in a trade-based program)...and we are counting all of our kids...even the ones with learning disabilities who are now in regular classrooms, due to no-child-left-behind (which was a bush administration policy, btw).

kids in many other countries are segregated at a young age and placed into academic and non-academic-based curriculum...and our "whole" is being compared to those in the academic-based curriculum.
 
it's the complexity of the good or service java. It's fucking pizza, why can't you wrap your head around the difference between pizza and education? And perhaps you haven't noticed but the free market is in the process of ruining our very DNA. In 10-20 years 1 in 4 children in this nation will be born with either type 1 or 2 diabetes. This is the direct result of our food system. They have "cut" our food, just like any good drug dealer, to the point where generations now of built up insulin resistance is being passed on to our kids through epigenetics, look it up. Once our kids are born with this it's locked into our DNA. The ramifications of that are staggering. Breeding generations of children that will require insulin shots to live.....this is the result of the profit motive infecting the food supply java. It's precisely an area where the free market completely and utterly fails. They spent billions figuring out how to cut food with fillers and god knows what else so they make more bottom line....and this is the end result. Children on insulin since they're born sure sounds like progress to me.

The government subsidizes corn production and most of the corn production goes to ethanol, Feed, and high fructose corn syrup which decreases the cost of adding sugars to food (highly processed food). The Louisiana Purchase happened because France lost control of Haiti via slave revolt and the only purpose for controlling the Louisiana territory was food production so that Haiti could produce sugar for mercantilism (private public cooperation).
 
Last edited:
The government subsidizes corn production and most of the corn production goes to ethanol, Feed, and high fructose corn syrup which decreases the cost of adding sugars to food (highly processed food). The Louisiana Purchase happened because France lost control of Haiti via slave revolt and the only purpose for controlling the Louisiana territory was food production so that Haiti could produce sugar for mercantilism (private public cooperation).

Government Subsidized your supposed private school too.
And you also supposedly used the government for college funds.
And subsidized your supposed College.

Nice hypocrisy life.

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!
 
In high school I went to visit my girlfriend almost everyday at work and I ate the fast food voluntarily and we spent her break socializing (fucking in my car). I also routinely went through the McDonald's drive through because five cheeseburgers were awesome; I ate meat and potatoes as diet staples growing up. At 40 my lifestyle choices haven't been good but I'm considered healthy because my objective test scores are considered "healthy" by the medical profession.
 
Government Subsidized your supposed private school too.
And you also supposedly used the government for college funds.
And subsidized your supposed College.

Nice hypocrisy life.

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!
I never attended a "private school."
I didn't have a choice in education, I was born on a commune and my interests were irrelevant because central planners determined that I should venerate the state first and education was ancillary. Claiming I'm a hypocrite because I wasn't given a real choice is logically flawed. I've also rejected the communist public education system as flawed.
 
kids in many other countries are segregated at a young age and placed into academic and non-academic-based curriculum...and our "whole" is being compared to those in the academic-based curriculum.

don't get me wrong...i'm not saying we're number one or anything crazy like that...we're just not as far down on the list as the statistics would suggest.

japan is way up there on the list, though...they put a significant amount of pressure on their students to achieve a high level of academic performance...however, this also has an unwanted side effect...

Record high for youth suicide / Suicide rates among students increased nearly 11% last year : National : DAILY YOMIURI ONLINE (The Daily Yomiuri)

once your dead? doesn't matter how fucking smart you are.
 
Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests tens of thousands of 15 year olds from OECD countries in math science and reading. Its a huge scientific project and the sample population is very carefully controlled.
In 2009 the USA was middle of the pack, around 17th.

If you look how they scrutinize the sampling to insure a fair comparison, it seems unlikely that countries are putting up their best and brightest to compare with our total average. The quote below is a paragraph taken from several pages that explains the selection criteria. The explanation begins around page 24 in the link.


In 29 out of the 65 countries participating in PISA 2009, the percentage of school-level exclusions amounted to less than 1%; it was less than 5% in all countries. When the exclusion of students who met the internationally established exclusion criteria is also taken into account, the exclusion rates increase slightly. However, the overall exclusion

rate remains below 2% in 32 participating countries, below 5% in 60 participating countries, and below 7% in all countries except Luxembourg (7.2%) and Denmark (8.6%). In 15 out of 34 OE CD countries, the percentage of school-level exclusions amounted to less than 1% and was less than 5% in all countries. When student exclusions within schools were also taken into account, there were 9 OE CD countries below 2% and 25 countries below 5% (see Annex A2).

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/48852548.pdf



The main results page for the 2009 study:

PISA 2009 - Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development

A table summarizing the sample population:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932343190
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests tens of thousands of 15 year olds from OECD countries in math science and reading. Its a huge scientific project and the sample population is very carefully controlled.
In 2009 the USA was middle of the pack, around 17th.

If you look how they scrutinize the sampling to insure a fair comparison, it seems unlikely that countries are putting up their best and brightest to compare with our total average. The quote below is a paragraph taken from several pages that explains the selection criteria. The explanation begins around page 24 in the link.








The main results page for the 2009 study:​


A table summarizing the sample population:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932343190


first of all, i don't know enough about pisa to comment on their sampling methodology...and second, 17th is a hell of a lot better than 33rd (almost 50% better), which is what the other quote said...like i said, i'm not saying we're number 1, but a 50% difference is significant...i'll bet we'd crack the top 10 within 5 years of dismantling no-child-left-behind...the effect of that act is devastating to classroom progress.
 
first of all, i don't know enough about pisa to comment on their sampling methodology...and second, 17th is a hell of a lot better than 33rd (almost 50% better), which is what the other quote said...like i said, i'm not saying we're number 1, but a 50% difference is significant...i'll bet we'd crack the top 10 within 5 years of dismantling no-child-left-behind...the effect of that act is devastating to classroom progress.

about 10 minutes ago, i posed the following questions (via e-mail) to one of my department of education contacts...his responses are in red...

Hey...question? You know how we've had those discussions about the U.S. education system and our ranking in the world? It has been my understanding that the statistics are skewed by the fact that other countries segregate children at a young age, based on aptitude, between academic (i.e., college-bound) and non-academic (i.e., trade-bound) and we don't do that here (in the U.S.) so, when we compare our education results to other countries, we are comparing results from our all-inclusive, no-child-left-behind system, to results from other countries for their academic group of students only.

Is that true? THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE … MOST COUNTRIES WE ARE COMPARED TO AND RANKING BELOW ‘WEED OUT THEIR LOWER LEVEL LEARNERS AT LEVEL 7 (SEVENTH GRADE) …AND THEY ARE NOT TESTED …SENT INSTEAD TO TRADE SCHOOLS AND NOT ACADEMIC SCHOOLS.

It is my understanding that one of the reasons that the U.S. doesn't rank very high anymore is because the statistics provide for an apples and oranges comparison...the other countries provide statistics for their "academic" group of students and the U.S. provides statistics for our entire group of students, including those with learning disabilities that are now in regular classrooms due to no-child-left-behind.

Am I dreaming that stuff, or is that actually what happens? NO …THIS IS SPOT ON! …and our wonderful government loves this!


this guy does this shit for a living and he's very passionate about it...so, i kinda believe him...plus, i've sat in on a few education seminars where this same information was espoused...i believe it to be accurate within a reasonable degree of professional certainty.
 
So our own educational system is watered down by the non hackers and we still rank 17th? Thats pretty fucking good
 
there's certainly room for improvement...but, we're not as far behind as people would like you to believe.


I would have no problem accepting the fact that our socialized governmental education program in the US is absolutely swell, but there are lots of studies that show us as mediocre.
I have searched for criticism of the PISA assessment and scholastic ranking in general, and find no discussion of this bias you claim in the sampling of students being tested. I have read theories for why some countries do better than others, but haven't found this sampling bias issue come up in any of the explanations.

Heres the Wikipedia page on PISA.

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I would have no problem accepting the fact that our socialized governmental education program in the US is absolutely swell, but there are lots of studies that show us as mediocre.
I have searched for criticism of the PISA assessment and scholastic ranking in general, and find no discussion of this bias you claim in the sampling of students being tested. I have read theories for why some countries do better than others, but haven't found this sampling bias issue come up in any of the explanations.

Heres the Wikipedia page on PISA.

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


that's the funny thing...the people i know that are part of the system actually think it sucks and they believe that our high achiever's needs are not even coming close to being met because of the way that the current system is constructed. also, these people work for the very system that is telling you that we are way behind, and they're saying "wait a second...that information is not completely true."
 
There are a lot of preconceived notions out there. People hear that something is true and they believe it and pass it on. Your theory of sampling bias is reasonable, but if its true there has to be some legitimate documentation of it somewhere.

that's the funny thing...the people i know that are part of the system actually think it sucks and they believe that our high achiever's needs are not even coming close to being met because of the way that the current system is constructed. also, these people work for the very system that is telling you that we are way behind, and they're saying "wait a second...that information is not completely true."

So what are you saying? That we should segregate our kids based on testing, to meet the needs of high achievers?
 
There are a lot of preconceived notions out there. People hear that something is true and they believe it and pass it on. Your theory of sampling bias is reasonable, but if its true there has to be some legitimate documentation of it somewhere.



So what are you saying? That we should segregate our kids based on testing, to meet the needs of high achievers?

That's how the system currently works; Standardized testing separates students without regard to how they learn.
 
The government subsidizes corn production and most of the corn production goes to ethanol, Feed, and high fructose corn syrup which decreases the cost of adding sugars to food (highly processed food). The Louisiana Purchase happened because France lost control of Haiti via slave revolt and the only purpose for controlling the Louisiana territory was food production so that Haiti could produce sugar for mercantilism (private public cooperation).

so that's what's wrong with our food chain? if it weren't for those pesky corn subsidies obesity would be non existent?

No sorry. Folks would be cutting their food whether corn was getting subsidized or not. And I am in whole agreement with you on those subsidies but I'm not about to use them as an excuse for why the free market has malnourished us.
 
So what are you saying? That we should segregate our kids based on testing, to meet the needs of high achievers?
Well, here's the one thing about that type of segregation (whether it offends anyone or not).

The main reason the govts. do that is that the kids who have the potential to perform well don't pay for post secondary education, it's paid for by the govt.

We have a system where everyone has the "potential to be whatever they want to be". Great. They get to do that because anyone who has enough money can get into virtually any college they want (sorry, if your dad is a billionaire and you're a moron you'll still manage to get into Harvard if that's what you want).

In other countries, they don't waste money on those who don't show the potential/aptitude to produce results. The downside is that very "weeding out" process. Frankly, I don't see what's so terrible about it. If you're going to be one hell of a barber but a completely shitty nuclear physicist isn't it better to get real early on? Why encourage unrealistic expectations? Why saddle people who can't produce results with horrendous debt? I mean, has anyone every seen shows like "American Idol"? Honestly, there's a lot of people out there who are in complete denial and need a harsh dose of reality ASAP. I don't think encouraging people to be realistically objective about themselves is limiting or cruel, I think it encourages critical thinking. But that's me. I also think you should have to pass both IQ and EQ tests before you're allowed to breed ...

The upshot to this system is that these kids get their college degrees AND aren't saddled with crushing debt. They usually have to commit some time to the govt., but it's not a lifetime. Gee, how many of our kids choose to join the military to pay for their college? So four years in the service, risking life and limb (literally) or XYZ years working in the field you were trained in and you get to go sleep in your own bed at the end of the day?

As I've said before, I think the whole "in America you can be anything you want to be with enough effort" isn't necessarily a healthy concept to instill. I'm sorry, if you've got an IQ of 95 I honestly don't think you'll ever be a brain surgeon, and if you do manage to squeak through school, I'd rather not be your patient, thanks.
 
Well, here's the one thing about that type of segregation (whether it offends anyone or not).

The main reason the govts. do that is that the kids who have the potential to perform well don't pay for post secondary education, it's paid for by the govt.

We have a system where everyone has the "potential to be whatever they want to be". Great. They get to do that because anyone who has enough money can get into virtually any college they want (sorry, if your dad is a billionaire and you're a moron you'll still manage to get into Harvard if that's what you want).

In other countries, they don't waste money on those who don't show the potential/aptitude to produce results. The downside is that very "weeding out" process. Frankly, I don't see what's so terrible about it. If you're going to be one hell of a barber but a completely shitty nuclear physicist isn't it better to get real early on? Why encourage unrealistic expectations? Why saddle people who can't produce results with horrendous debt? I mean, has anyone every seen shows like "American Idol"? Honestly, there's a lot of people out there who are in complete denial and need a harsh dose of reality ASAP. I don't think encouraging people to be realistically objective about themselves is limiting or cruel, I think it encourages critical thinking. But that's me. I also think you should have to pass both IQ and EQ tests before you're allowed to breed ...

The upshot to this system is that these kids get their college degrees AND aren't saddled with crushing debt. They usually have to commit some time to the govt., but it's not a lifetime. Gee, how many of our kids choose to join the military to pay for their college? So four years in the service, risking life and limb (literally) or XYZ years working in the field you were trained in and you get to go sleep in your own bed at the end of the day?

As I've said before, I think the whole "in America you can be anything you want to be with enough effort" isn't necessarily a healthy concept to instill. I'm sorry, if you've got an IQ of 95 I honestly don't think you'll ever be a brain surgeon, and if you do manage to squeak through school, I'd rather not be your patient, thanks.

So you'd rather the government tell kids what they can and can't do because it would "save money"? I'm pretty sure the market would take care of that brain surgeon if he/she somehow made it through medical school with an IQ of 95.

Do you really thinks that's where we need to try to save money, by taking away our freedom? I hope another dem comes in and tells me this isn't how you all think.
 
There are a lot of preconceived notions out there. People hear that something is true and they believe it and pass it on. Your theory of sampling bias is reasonable, but if its true there has to be some legitimate documentation of it somewhere.



So what are you saying? That we should segregate our kids based on testing, to meet the needs of high achievers?

uhhh, wellll, that's EXACTLY what happened in the public schools when i was in grade school...there was special ed, there were regular classes and there were accelerated classes...and we were leading the world in education...and that model met every student's needs, not just the high achievers. but then, somewhere along the line, we became this "everyone gets a trophy" nation and common sense went in the garbage can.
 
uhhh, wellll, that's EXACTLY what happened in the public schools when i was in grade school...there was special ed, there were regular classes and there were accelerated classes...and we were leading the world in education...and that model met every student's needs, not just the high achievers. but then, somewhere along the line, we became this "everyone gets a trophy" nation and common sense went in the garbage can.

and, if the above comment seems kinda edgy, i have another concept for you that's really gonna blow your mind...
































...are you ready??


































...are you sure?????






























...all men are NOT created equal.
 
ic the true nature of that sentiment has gone over your head, but i'm no mood to explain it anymore.

i know the true nature of the statement, for chrissakes (it's a rebuttal to the divine right of kings)...i'm being irreverent, like i am prone to do...gimme a little credit.
 
I'm sorry, if you've got an IQ of 95 I honestly don't think you'll ever be a brain surgeon, and if you do manage to squeak through school, I'd rather not be your patient, thanks.

You can still be rich and successful though.
 
With MM's luck with the medical establishment, a doc with 95 IQ seems just as good as any other doc shes dealt with
 
You can still be rich and successful though.

yup...that's one of the great things about this country...you can be a half-assed student and still be wildly successful if you work your ass off. in virtually every other country in the world, that's just not a legitimate possibility...those children who are segregated based on aptitude, that i was talking about above??? they're usually segregated for life.

example...we had a foreign exchange student from finland at our school when i was a senior...she was brilliant...she was already enrolled in college and was to enter a university as soon as she went home...her major was going to be nursing...nothing wrong with nursing...tough major...but this girl was literally brilliant, and she was interested in medicine...i asked "why aren't you going to school to be a doctor?"...she said "i can't."...i ask "why not? is it like too expensive and you can't afford it?"...she said "no, i'm not permitted to go to college to be a doctor." she had been given a choice of career paths based on a combination of test scores and what her family (mother and father, etc.) did for a living, and she chose the highest course of study available to her, which happened to be nursing.
 
it's the complexity of the good or service java. It's fucking pizza, why can't you wrap your head around the difference between pizza and education? And perhaps you haven't noticed but the free market is in the process of ruining our very DNA. In 10-20 years 1 in 4 children in this nation will be born with either type 1 or 2 diabetes. This is the direct result of our food system. They have "cut" our food, just like any good drug dealer, to the point where generations now of built up insulin resistance is being passed on to our kids through epigenetics, look it up. Once our kids are born with this it's locked into our DNA. The ramifications of that are staggering. Breeding generations of children that will require insulin shots to live.....this is the result of the profit motive infecting the food supply java. It's precisely an area where the free market completely and utterly fails. They spent billions figuring out how to cut food with fillers and god knows what else so they make more bottom line....and this is the end result. Children on insulin since they're born sure sounds like progress to me.

I, Pencil...

" I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.*
RP.2

Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that's all I do.
RP.3

You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery—more so than a tree or a sunset or even a flash of lightning. But, sadly, I am taken for granted by those who use me, as if I were a mere incident and without background. This supercilious attitude relegates me to the level of the commonplace. This is a species of the grievous error in which mankind cannot too long persist without peril. For, the wise G. K. Chesterton observed, "We are perishing for want of wonder, not for want of wonders."
RP.4

I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe, a claim I shall attempt to prove. In fact, if you can understand me—no, that's too much to ask of anyone—if you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing. I have a profound lesson to teach. And I can teach this lesson better than can an automobile or an airplane or a mechanical dishwasher because—well, because I am seemingly so simple.
RP.5

Simple? Yet, not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me. This sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Especially when it is realized that there are about one and one-half billion of my kind produced in the U.S.A. each year.
RP.6

Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye—there's some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.

Innumerable Antecedents

RP.7

Just as you cannot trace your family tree back very far, so is it impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents. But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.
RP.8

My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!
RP.9

The logs are shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California. Can you imagine the individuals who make flat cars and rails and railroad engines and who construct and install the communication systems incidental thereto? These legions are among my antecedents.
RP.10

Consider the millwork in San Leandro. The cedar logs are cut into small, pencil-length slats less than one-fourth of an inch in thickness. These are kiln dried and then tinted for the same reason women put rouge on their faces. People prefer that I look pretty, not a pallid white. The slats are waxed and kiln dried again. How many skills went into the making of the tint and the kilns, into supplying the heat, the light and power, the belts, motors, and all the other things a mill requires? Sweepers in the mill among my ancestors? Yes, and included are the men who poured the concrete for the dam of a Pacific Gas & Electric Company hydroplant which supplies the mill's power!
RP.11

Don't overlook the ancestors present and distant who have a hand in transporting sixty carloads of slats across the nation.
RP.12

Once in the pencil factory—$4,000,000 in machinery and building, all capital accumulated by thrifty and saving parents of mine—each slat is given eight grooves by a complex machine, after which another machine lays leads in every other slat, applies glue, and places another slat atop—a lead sandwich, so to speak. Seven brothers and I are mechanically carved from this "wood-clinched" sandwich.
RP.13

My "lead" itself—it contains no lead at all—is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth—and the harbor pilots.
RP.14

The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow—animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions—as from a sausage grinder-cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.
RP.15

My cedar receives six coats of lacquer. Do you know all the ingredients of lacquer? Who would think that the growers of castor beans and the refiners of castor oil are a part of it? They are. Why, even the processes by which the lacquer is made a beautiful yellow involve the skills of more persons than one can enumerate!
RP.16

Observe the labeling. That's a film formed by applying heat to carbon black mixed with resins. How do you make resins and what, pray, is carbon black?
RP.17

My bit of metal—the ferrule—is brass. Think of all the persons who mine zinc and copper and those who have the skills to make shiny sheet brass from these products of nature. Those black rings on my ferrule are black nickel. What is black nickel and how is it applied? The complete story of why the center of my ferrule has no black nickel on it would take pages to explain.
RP.18

Then there's my crowning glory, inelegantly referred to in the trade as "the plug," the part man uses to erase the errors he makes with me. An ingredient called "factice" is what does the erasing. It is a rubber-like product made by reacting rape-seed oil from the Dutch East Indies with sulfur chloride. Rubber, contrary to the common notion, is only for binding purposes. Then, too, there are numerous vulcanizing and accelerating agents. The pumice comes from Italy; and the pigment which gives "the plug" its color is cadmium sulfide.

No One Knows

RP.19

Does anyone wish to challenge my earlier assertion that no single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me?
RP.20

Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. Now, you may say that I go too far in relating the picker of a coffee berry in far off Brazil and food growers elsewhere to my creation; that this is an extreme position. I shall stand by my claim. There isn't a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field—paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.
RP.21

Here is an astounding fact: Neither the worker in the oil field nor the chemist nor the digger of graphite or clay nor any who mans or makes the ships or trains or trucks nor the one who runs the machine that does the knurling on my bit of metal nor the president of the company performs his singular task because he wants me. Each one wants me less, perhaps, than does a child in the first grade. Indeed, there are some among this vast multitude who never saw a pencil nor would they know how to use one. Their motivation is other than me. Perhaps it is something like this: Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.

No Master Mind

RP.22

There is a fact still more astounding: the absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.
RP.23

It has been said that "only God can make a tree." Why do we agree with this? Isn't it because we realize that we ourselves could not make one? Indeed, can we even describe a tree? We cannot, except in superficial terms. We can say, for instance, that a certain molecular configuration manifests itself as a tree. But what mind is there among men that could even record, let alone direct, the constant changes in molecules that transpire in the life span of a tree? Such a feat is utterly unthinkable!
RP.24

I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies—millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human master-minding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.
RP.25

The above is what I meant when writing, "If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing." For, if one is aware that these know-hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand—that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive masterminding—then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.
RP.26

Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn't know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation's mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of faith in free people—in the unawareness that millions of tiny know-hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity—the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental "master-minding."

Testimony Galore

RP.27

If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men and women can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it's all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person's home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one's range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard—halfway around the world—for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!
RP.28

The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.
RP.29

Leonard E. Read (1898-1983) founded FEE in 1946 and served as its president until his death.

"I, Pencil," his most famous essay, was first published in the December 1958 issue of The Freeman. Although a few of the manufacturing details and place names have changed over the past forty years, the principles are unchanged. "


My father was my primary math teacher from 1st grade until I exceeded algebra and he had a HS diploma from the 1930's because he took time to teach me what the public school system failed to teach me.
 
Some of my friends in high school grew up on dairy farms, they woke up at 4:00 AM to help milk. The milk was picked up by another party and transported to a central location. From that location it was transported by rail or truck to cheese manufacturers. Those manufacturers would produce the cheese, thanks to help from multiple third parties providing the goods needed to produce cheese, and ship it through another party to stores and businesses all around the country; That's just for the cheese.

Delivering a pizza is a a complex endeavor and education is a complex endeavor; You have no idea how complex it is to deliver a car to the market and the amount of complexity in the system. Parts aren't produced by fairy dust but yet BMW, Lexus,and Audi are high end products without the government running their supply chain and you have lower end producers like KIA providing goods for those on the other end of the market; It works pretty well in cars. In rural environments cars are essential because you have a ten mile or greater drive to work in a middle class job.

A report released by the Department of Education in 2010 showed that Head Start was an epic failure for low income children; Any advantage they had dissipated by the second grade.
 
Java has become the worst poster on EF. Hands down. That's quite an accomplishment.

^^^this



java i got about 2 paragraphs into your I fucking pencil post when i realized who it was thta posted it and decided to scroll down. Sure enough i was fixing to spend the next 15 minutes reading that if i so decided to continue.

Cut it out dude. Seriously. We're all over it. Make your point in a couple paragraphs tops. When you're about to cut and paste something...ask yourself if it's going to take up the entire thread page.
 
yup...that's one of the great things about this country...you can be a half-assed student and still be wildly successful if you work your ass off. in virtually every other country in the world, that's just not a legitimate possibility...those children who are segregated based on aptitude, that i was talking about above??? they're usually segregated for life.

example...we had a foreign exchange student from finland at our school when i was a senior...she was brilliant...she was already enrolled in college and was to enter a university as soon as she went home...her major was going to be nursing...nothing wrong with nursing...tough major...but this girl was literally brilliant, and she was interested in medicine...i asked "why aren't you going to school to be a doctor?"...she said "i can't."...i ask "why not? is it like too expensive and you can't afford it?"...she said "no, i'm not permitted to go to college to be a doctor." she had been given a choice of career paths based on a combination of test scores and what her family (mother and father, etc.) did for a living, and she chose the highest course of study available to her, which happened to be nursing.


This country more than any I'd say is still home to the philosophy and practice that, regardless of your walk of life, if you have a sound enough body and mind to figure out what you're good at, you also have the highest probability of finding a (hopefully legal) way to make a good living off of it. Problems surface from the fact that the lower class could be there for a number of reasons (just like upper class, but for the sake of this thread topic I'll focus on the lower); Shit luck, right on up to deserving to be there through repeated mistakes of shitty choices. So those people at the very least have no right to bitch about "unfair opportunity" or any shit like that.
 
This country more than any I'd say is still home to the philosophy and practice that, regardless of your walk of life, if you have a sound enough body and mind to figure out what you're good at, you also have the highest probability of finding a (hopefully legal) way to make a good living off of it. Problems surface from the fact that the lower class could be there for a number of reasons (just like upper class, but for the sake of this thread topic I'll focus on the lower); Shit luck, right on up to deserving to be there through repeated mistakes of shitty choices. So those people at the very least have no right to bitch about "unfair opportunity" or any shit like that.


Or, if you know what you're good at and are doing it, but all of your opportunity is legislated away.
Why would a should a small business owner pay %30 taxes and the Corporations pay 0 and get a chunk of those small business owner paid taxes as a tax return?
Why should taxes on capitol gains be lower than the work and SBO?

Chopping it up to "shit luck" is a copout.
The Cards are stacked against the worker and small business owner these days.
The "freemarket" isnt free nor self correcting.
Its called pay to play, and if you can't lobby you're SOL.
Hence the middle class disappearing and the Market at double what it was in 2009.
DrOiD BioNiC EF App!
 
Or, if you know what you're good at and are doing it, but all of your opportunity is legislated away.
Why would a should a small business owner pay %30 taxes and the Corporations pay 0 and get a chunk of those small business owner paid taxes as a tax return?
Why should taxes on capitol gains be lower than the work and SBO?

Chopping it up to "shit luck" is a copout.
The Cards are stacked against the worker and small business owner these days.
The "freemarket" isnt free nor self correcting.
Its called pay to play, and if you can't lobby you're SOL.
Hence the middle class disappearing and the Market at double what it was in 2009.
DrOiD BioNiC EF App!

*chalking

the *capital gains tax rate is lower than the maximum ordinary income tax rate to encourage investment, which i honestly believe is a good thing. is it too low right now? eh, maybe. however, i think that the time has definitely come to eliminate the preferential treatment for qualifying dividends, which are also given capital gain treatment for tax purposes.

the deficit truly needs some attention, and some of this shit just has to go...it's time.
 
*chalking

the *capital gains tax rate is lower than the maximum ordinary income tax rate to encourage investment, which i honestly believe is a good thing. is it too low right now? eh, maybe. however, i think that the time has definitely come to eliminate the preferential treatment for qualifying dividends, which are also given capital gain treatment for tax purposes.

the deficit truly needs some attention, and some of this shit just has to go...it's time.

*Chopping
And you're statement is 100% valid. And I agree totally.

DrOiD BioNiC EF App!
 
^^^this



java i got about 2 paragraphs into your I fucking pencil post when i realized who it was thta posted it and decided to scroll down. Sure enough i was fixing to spend the next 15 minutes reading that if i so decided to continue.

Cut it out dude. Seriously. We're all over it. Make your point in a couple paragraphs tops. When you're about to cut and paste something...ask yourself if it's going to take up the entire thread page.

I know, reading is bad on the interwebs.

What do teachers complain about that makes their job impossible?
Broken students, students that are discipline problems,students with bad parents, students that are disrespectful and lazy. They follow up with the uncompensated hours they work that are mandated by the government or for professional development.

Now, replace student with employee and teacher with entrepreneur.
 
Last edited:
I know, reading is bad on the interwebs.

What do teachers complain about that makes their job impossible?
Broken students, students that are discipline problems,students with bad parents, students that are disrespectful and lazy. They follow up with the uncompensated hours they work that are mandated by the government or for professional development.

Now, replace student with employee and teacher with entrepreneur.

Just sayin'.
 
“You define yourself by what you can do, not what you can’t.” Anthony Robles

It is hard to look at Anthony Robles’ life journey and not be both inspired and embarrassed. Inspired because of this young man’s journey and everything he has accomplished despite being born without a right leg [to a 16 year old girl - a single mom]. Embarrassed because his story makes you evaluate your own life and realize that so many times you backed away from something conquerable because “it seems difficult.” Your excuses seem petty compared to the victories Anthony has won.

The young man, despite only knowing life with one leg, learned to ride a bicycle, run a mile, and play defensive tackle for his junior high team. The same young man who was absolutely destroyed on the wrestling mat when he first started the sport, refused to quit. The young man who turned his disappointments at a young age into two state titles and walked-on to Arizona State.

Anthony grabbed the nation’s heart in 2011 when he finished his senior season at Arizona State by winning the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championship. He went 36-0.

"I went from being last in the city to finishing my junior and senior years at Mesa High School with a 96-0 record , a 2-time Arizona State Champion and a high school National Champion. Despite finishing with an awesome high school record, few college wrestling programs believed I could excel at the next level. They thought I was too small to wrestle in college and that a one legged wrestler could never compete with the nations best college wrestlers. I finished as a 3-time All-American and the 2011 NCAA National Champion."


How dare this guy!?? Who did he think he was, succeeding like that despite all the odds being stacked against him? He was told it was impossible, yet he did it anyway. The GALL!!

buy his book...coming out next week:

http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Underdog-Undefeated-Became-Champion/dp/1592407773

http://anthonyrobles.com/bio.html

http://www.competeeveryday.com/2012/08/anthony-robles-unstoppable/
 
Top Bottom