Another Single Factor 5x5 Journal

[Guinness5.0]

I don't think I've been lifting my chest. I certainly haven't been thinking about it. That has to help with getting the shoulders back.

I think that's why the shoulders are such an afterthought to me- my focus is on pushing my sternum out as my hips go forward and as a consequence my shoulders go back w/out much concious effort.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 10, Friday

Bodyweight: 78.5kg (173lb)

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ....... warmup
40 x 9 ......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5 ......... up 2.5
85 x 5 ........... up 5
95 x 3 ........... up 2.5 ...... (209lb)
77.5 x 8 ........ up 2.5

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
30 x 9 .......... warmup
47.5 x 5 ........ up 2.5
52.5 x 5 ........ up 2.5
57.5 x 5 ........ up 2.5
62.5 x 5
70 x 3 .......... up 1.5 ........ (154lb)
57.5 x 8

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
50 x 5
55 x 5 .......... up 2.5
61 x 3 .......... up 1 ........ (134lb)
50 x 8

4. Abs - decline bench, lean back just below horizontal, hold for 5, then back up
BW x 8
BW x 8
BW x 8

Comments

Squats weren't that strenuous. I could have done 5 reps today, or jumped up to 97.5kg. I might go straight to 97.5kg on Monday, not sure yet.

I had a wierd problem on my first set on bench. The right hand side of the bar seemed stuck down. Completely freaked me out. Then I realised I'd put the wrong plates on that side of the bar . The sets were fine, although I could feel my left pec straining on the triple, which I've never felt before. I'll keep an eye on it on monday.

Rows were good. I was watching my form so much today, I nearly did 5 reps instead of the triple by mistake.

I threw in some abs for a change today. I'll start adding weight to these as the weeks go by. You might have noticed I've hardly done any 'beach work' since I started. The main reason is that I'm happy with the results I've been getting, so I just don't see the need for anything extra. I think I'll keep the ab work though, just to further strengthen the core.

I wasn't sure how well I'd do today as I've been feeling pretty run down. Just tired all the time, probably because I haven't had a weekend off in a while. I went to bed early and got nearly 12 hours sleep last night! Today's workout was ok though, so I'm happy.

For those of you that are still using that antiquated weights system we gave you a while back, I've shown the top sets in lbs for you

 

[blut wump]

Isn't that squat a PR for weight?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

A qucik question regarding single-factor training with the 5x5 program - if you squat 215 for your top set of 5, let's say, you could do something like this:

135, 155, 175, 195, 215

Now, if you increase by 5-10 lbs. a week on your working set, would you bump everything else (the warmups) up by 5-10 lbs. also? Or would you keep them the same for weeks on end, until the gap grew enough that you'd need to use larger jumps in weight to make it steady?

 

[anotherbutters]

Isn't that squat a PR for weight?

I guess. I'd forgotten

I've been counting PRs when I get 5 reps, but you're right, I haven't lifted that weight before and it's higher than the smith squats I used to do. A belated woohoo!

Freeweight squats feel completely different from the smith squats. Chalk and cheese different. With smith squats, I gradually got to 93kg and stayed there forever (in my Max-OT days). With freeweights, I don't have any doubts I'll be trying 100kg (two plates) within the next week or two and look forward to continuing the increases. I no longer have any 'taboo' weights that I regard as sticking points. Now that feels good!

I hope to fix my deadlift problem with better form, eat well and keep these gains coming.

 

[anotherbutters]

A qucik question regarding single-factor training with the 5x5 program - if you squat 215 for your top set of 5, let's say, you could do something like this:

135, 155, 175, 195, 215

Now, if you increase by 5-10 lbs. a week on your working set, would you bump everything else (the warmups) up by 5-10 lbs. also? Or would you keep them the same for weeks on end, until the gap grew enough that you'd need to use larger jumps in weight to make it steady?

I play it by ear. If the earlier sets feel as though they're getting too easy, I increase them. If the top set feels pretty hard, I might delay increasing the fourth set for a week or so, just to give me some breathing room. I don't work off percentages, nor do I always increase by the same amount, but I try to keep the jumps fairly evenly spaced.

If you look back through my journal and concentrate on say Mondays, you'll see how I've increased them week by week. I even write down the increases, just to help questions like this

Also, it's different for different exercises. I find deadlifts taxing, so I've only increased the first set by 5kg since I started. But on military press, I've bumped all the sets a few times.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 11, Monday

Bodyweight: 79kg/174lb (target: 79kg)

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 ........... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5 ......... up 2.5
85 x 5 ........... up 5
96 x 5 ........... up 3.5 ......... (211lb) ........ PR!

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 .......... warmup
30 x 9 ........... warmup
47.5 x 5
52.5 x 5
58.5 x 5 ........ up 1
63.5 x 5 ........ up 1
70 x 5 .......... up 1.5 ......... (154lb) ........ PR!

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
50 x 5
55 x 5
61 x 5 .......... up 1 ............ (134lb) ........ PR!

4. Abs - 5 second below-horizontal holds

1.25kg x 8
1.25kg x 8
1.25kg x 8


Comments

Squats seemed easy on Friday, so I decided to try to jump 7.5kg over the next two weeks rather than 5kg. I jumped 3.5kg (7.7lb) today and still had some gas in the tank. I'm pretty excited about this - I feel like I'm going to get tons of mileage out of these! Today also blows anything I've ever done on a smith machine out of the water.

My final rep on bench was the slowest rep I've ever done - something like 6 seconds, lol. I stalled about half an inch off my chest, but I thought there's absolutely no way on this earth am I missing this PR, so I pushed with every last sinew in my body and it moved a bit, so I kept pushing and it kept moving. I'd hate to think how long I'd have been there if I'd have found a sticking point because I wasn't giving up - THANK YOU guys And I'm so glad I don't have to work with a spotter, for his sake

Rows - excellent form on the 4th set, but I stood up quite a bit on the last set. I'm going to push on and increase again on Friday, but if my form is lousy, I'll stick with this weight on Monday.

Abs - I'm going to start doing these Monday and Fridays. I still have DOMS in my abs from Friday, so I dread to think what they're going to feel like tomorrow The weight I used today was minimal, but doing these with just bodyweight was hard enough.

Injuries - I might have a case of the Blut Wumps. It's probably nothing, but it feels like I've pulled something in my back, right at the bottom of my left shoulder blade. If I stretch my left arm out in front and across me, as though I've just delt a blow to someone, I can feel it at the bottom of the shoulder blade. I can also feel it when I retract my shoulder blades. It started just before my 4th set on bench, but didn't seem to affect the bench or rows.

I had something like this a few months ago when I was doing heavy standing machine calf raises. I had about 160kg/350lb (all the plates bar one) on there and my left shoulder collapsed with a sickening crunch. I couldn't do shrugs or even hold a bag of shopping after that, for about 2-3 months. It feels similar, but I don't know, it might be nothing and might be gone by tomorrow. I just thought I'd mention it in case it's the start of something. I don't know what might have caused it. I just hope it doesn't affect my deadlift on Wednesday.

 

[blut wump]

Congrats on all the PRs again. There's just no stopping you. 7.5Kgs is quite a lot but if you have it in you then there's little point dawdling.

I love those slow, creeping max bench reps, the successful ones, anyway.

The injury sounds unpleasant and very much like a muscle-spasm. Try an Ibufrofen and try alternating hot and cold, five minutes each. Also try to get someone to massage it for you if possible. I had a huge hamstring cramp after my bench on Friday and I've ordered some taurine from myprotein.

 

[anotherbutters]

Thanks. My back doesn't actually hurt unless I have a real good go at trying to find a position that hits it. It feels better already, so I'm just hoping it's nothing. I've been carrying bags of sand around and mixing concrete today and it's been ok.

On a lighter note, my arms have reached 14". Still small in bodybuilding terms, but they were 13" when I started this journal 11 weeks ago. Still probably only 2/3 the size of your arms, but then I only weigh 2/3 of you

 

[blut wump]

Honest, guv, I don't even work them. That picture was taken 27th Aug so three weeks into the Korte. I did do arms for about three weeks prior to the Korte, though. Congrats on the burgeoning.

I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better but so did I after hurting myself and then the injury really let loose two days later under load.

 

[anotherbutters]

The SF description shows Wednesdays as light days, and I've just noticed it's a 4x5 day, not 5x5. I've been doing 5 sets all along, which makes for a pretty long workout.

I'm looking for an excuse to cut the workout down. Can I be excused? Or should I just knuckle down and quit complaining?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Doesn't the description say that a fifth set can be added at the same weight as the third/fourth on squats and incline/press? I've been doing 5 sets on squats and incline bench (switching to standing press next week) and 4 on deadlifts. For me, the extra light sets have been pretty useful for concentrating on form.

If you think dropping to four sets would leave you fresher for Friday and deads, it's definitely something to consider. Or even if you just want to shorten the time for other reasons, I doubt it'd hurt you.

 

[blut wump]

Look on it as a valve. If you need to take it easy then do so but equally you know you can do more and doing more will give you more within reason. Think of it as a mini-deload every once in a while.

Another aspect to it is that your deadlifts are getting up towards the 2x bodyweight zone and you might benefit from doing less of these.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 11, Wednesday

Bodyweight: 79kg (174lb)

I ended up sticking with my usual format today rather than dropping down to 4 sets of each. I timed it - 1hr 20 mins, so not too bad, but longer than I'd like.

1. Light freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ....... warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5 ....... up 2.5
77.5 x 5 ....... up 2.5
77.5 x 5 ....... up 2.5 ............ (170lb)

2. Deads (kg)
50 x 9 .......... warmup
75 x 5
85 x 5
100 x 5 ........ overhand
117.5 x 3 ..... mixed, quit at 3 reps
135 x 5 ........ 3 mixed, 2 strapped ..... (297lb) ....... PR, but not happy

3. Military Press (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
31 x 5 .......... up 1
33.5 x 5 ....... up 1
36 x 5 .......... up 1
40 x 5 .......... up 2.5
45 x 5 .......... up 1.5 ................ (99lb) ......... PR!

4. Pullups
BW x 5
BW x 4
BW x 3
BW x 3
BW x 2
= 17 reps, same as PR

Comments

I'm not happy.

The skin on my left hand fingers started pulling again on the 4th set of deads, so I quit after 3 reps because I didn't want to affect the final set. My grip felt lousy - the first rep was overhand and I nearly dropped it, so I switched to mixed but I still had a hard time. And that was only the 4th set.

On the 5th set I managed 3 reps but my grip (with chalk) wouldn't hold out, so I wrapped the straps around (started off with them dangling just in case). I only just managed the 4th rep, with a tiny hitch. I got the 5th rep, but only because I raised my chest as high as I could, which meant I could just about get my shoulders back (thanks BW for helping me identify this last week). There was a long pause before the 4th and 5th reps, so this was really more of a triple than 5 reps. I'm just not happy with it. I can't imagine trying to increase the weight next week.

Something else that's affecting me is that I'm trying not to make a big racket because I've converted my dining room into my gym and I actually rent this house from the next door neighbour - I don't want them coming round asking what all the noise is and finding out what a mess I've made of their house! I know, it's silly, but it's on my mind and trying to lower the weights under control and put them down semi-gently when I've got about 6 very loose iron plates on the bar doesn't help. I know injuries are just as likely when lowering on deads, so I really want to put the bar down quick.

Military press was good. Very hard, but it was a pretty big jump today. I was at 40kg 4 weeks ago, so that's a 12.5% improvement in 4 weeks!

Pullups, I should have done 4 reps on the third set, or at least got 3 reps on the final set, then I'd have done one more rep than last week in total. Ah well, today is the first time I've ever done 5 reps, so I guess that's a record in itself.

No sign of the mystery injury from Monday, so I was probably worrying about nothing.

I'm becoming annoyed at the amount of fat I've put on. Not just because I've put it on, but because of how long it's going to take to take it off again. I've taken 11 weeks to come this far, but if it takes another 11 weeks to take the fat off to get back to the level of fat I had when I started, then in real terms, my gains will have taken twice as long to realise. I'm prepared to accept the fat I have at the moment, but I really don't want to put on any more. The trouble is I need to eat to gain more muscle, so I'll inevitably put on a little more fat, even if I add cardio or reduce the calories a bit. I don't know what to do. I don't really want to cut now because I'm enjoying the gains. Maybe I should cut for 5-6 weeks, just to cut the fat down a bit, not all the way, then bulk again, but slower. I'd be very surprised if I was less than 20% BF at the moment.

 

[blut wump]

I've been wondering for a couple of weeks whether you might be in need of a deload week. It could be something to consider and give you a chance to cut your cals right back for a week.

The gains are still coming on the lifts but you've been starting to sound fatigued.

 

[anotherbutters]

I think you're right.

On deadlifts, it feels like I'm not getting stronger, I'm just pushing myself closer and closer to my limit, which isn't increasing. My bench is still increasing, but it's getting harder and harder. I'll find out on Friday how much life I have in the squats, as I attempt an even bigger increase than I've just done.

Most of my lifts are still increasing, but outside of the gym I'm feeling a bit rundown and downbeat in general. A week off might be a good thing. I could drop the calories a bit, do a bit of moderate cardio and hopefully come back feeling a bit better about myself.

 

[blut wump]

That pretty much settles it. At the first mention of deload, you're booking your holidays.

I think it's good to take a week out every few months. I was initially thinking of just dropping the sets but you might well be in need of a bigger break than just a deload.

 

[anotherbutters]

Funny you should say that - last Thursday I looked at some last minute flights with the idea of taking this week off

Ok, Friday's workout will be as planned, then I'm off for a week.

 

[Guinness5.0]

IMO you shouldn't cut just yet- just drop your cals a bit starting with carbs and see how it goes. It's a balancing act. Some fat is inevitable but try trimming some fluff out of your diet (if there is any) or as you said just do some cardio and leave the diet alone.

You're progressing like mad. Keep it up for now bro.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

I don't think taking a full week off is such a good idea. Perhaps doing a proper deload and going light on all of the main lifts for a week would be better?

As to my opinion on whether you should keep going or try to cut: If you are feeling down and embarrassed at the amount of fat you have put on so much so that it is affecting your confidence and self-esteem, then it wouldn't hurt to cut for a month or so and try to maintain your current lifts.

Otherwise, I'd suggest to keep trying to bulk for for a couple more months and try to reduce the amount of simple carbs, fats and alcohol in your diet.

I'm going away for the new year in December for three weeks. I don't think I'll have access to a gym while I'm away, so I intend to keep going and gain as much strength and mass as I can until I leave. I'll be doing a fair bit of drinking while I'm away, so presumably I'll put on a fair amount of body fat. I don't intend to begin cutting until I return early next year.

 

[anotherbutters]

Thanks for the different viewpoints guys.

I don't really want to cut right now, I've just become a little annoyed at how much fat I've put on. My annoyance is more to do with the time I feel I've lost by putting on too much fat, because I'll only have to take it off again to reach my goal of being more muscular and leaner.

But... I realise this is a journey that's going to take a few years and the extra time cutting is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I should quit complaining (slaps oneself).

This all came about because I had a job interview on Tuesday and had to wear a suit for the first time in 3 months. 3 months ago, I had to buy trousers with a smaller waist because I'd just finished cutting back then (don't ask why ). The other day, I could barely squeeze into my regular trousers, so that's about 3" on my waist in as many months.

This is the first time I've bulked and I'm learning from it. I think I'll continue, but slow down the weight increases and maybe introduce some cardio. Cardio will be useful for fitness, not just burning calories. I'll be ok as long as I don't have to wear my suit again for a while Oh, dammit, I just found out I have a second interview tomorrow

DJBJ: reduce the amount of alcohol in my diet? Oh boy! I think I've had about one bottle of red wine in three weeks. If anything, I need to increase it!

As for whether to take next week off... I'm not so sure now. It's only my deadlift that's stalled, so I'm still not overreaching. Now that I've decided to carry on bulking, I think I'll go for it and try to get that big squat increase that I was looking forward to.

Crisis over. Sorry, and thanks for listening

 

[blut wump]

lol, I'm not convinced. You have been sounding fatigued and you don't necessarily want to stretch out into over-reaching. Then again, maybe you do.

In general, a deload is preferable to a holiday but it is often recommended to take a week out from lifting once in a while and do some other form of exercise just to recharge the batteries.

 

[anotherbutters]

You might be right, I don't know. There's only one way to find out for sure...

 

[anotherbutters]

This makes me feel better

Week 1
right arm: 13"
right thigh: 22"
chest: 37"
gut: 34"

Week 11
right arm: 14"
right thigh: 24.5"
chest: 39.25"
gut: 36.5"

Not bad leg changes, given I've only just started squatting properly!

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 11, Friday

Bodyweight: 79.5kg (175lb)

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5
87.5 x 5 ......... up 2.5
100 x 3 .......... up 5 ...... (220lb) .... 2 plates
77.5 x 8

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
30 x 9 .......... warmup
47.5 x 5
52.5 x 5
58.5 x 5 ........ up 1
63.5 x 5 ........ up 1
71 x 3 ........... up 1 ........ (156lb)
58.5 x 8 ........ up 1

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
50 x 5
56 x 5 ............. up 1
62.5 x 3 .......... up 1.5 ........ (138lb)
50 x 8

4. Abs - 5 second below horizontal holds
1.25kg x 8
1.25kg x 8
1.25kg x 8

Comments

Squats - cake! I could've done 5 reps today. Contemplating another big jump over the next two weeks again, even though I know that's going to be greedy.

Bench - The triple was hard, but not incredibly slow like Monday's PR. I banged the bar on the safety rail on the first rep, but recovered ok.

Rows - The triple wasn't quite to my gut, so again, I'm not sure whether I should try this for 5 reps on Monday, but I'm going to. My attitude to these has become one of pushing on, even though I know my form isn't perfect on the top set. My real 5RM with good form is probably a few pounds shy of the weight I use each week, but so long as my form doesn't get worse, I can increase the real 5RM by pushing ahead with the sloppy 5RM. I did the next to top set with really good form.

Abs - no DOMS after Monday's workout, which was a nice surprise. So I only had DOMS after my first direct ab workout! Same weight as Monday today. I'll bump the weight once a week. These get really hard on the last few reps as the blood has rushed to my head and I'm trying to hold my breath for 5 seconds - is that dangerous?!!

 

[blut wump]

Cool squats up to a tenth of a tonne.

That issue with the rows and being uncertain whether it was a good rep was what pushed me to switch to cleans on my second run of the 5x5 and was another factor in deciding that ATF squats were the only way to go. There's no doubt in either whether you made or failed the rep. I ended up missing rows, though. It's a tough call on row form. I think you're probably doing the right thing.

Try to breathe normally on abs. I think you mentioned that you dip below horizontal, maximal torque is at horizontal.

 

[anotherbutters]

Cool squats up to a tenth of a tonne.

I'm not sure if that sounds impressive or not

I do abs starting sat upright on the flat part of the bench with my legs locked around the leg extension bars, which are locked in place. Then I lean back to just below horizontal until my shoulders are nearly touching the decline part of the bench, which is maybe 15 degrees below horizontal.

I know max torque is at horizontal, but it feels harder if I go below, probably because of how much I'm stretching my abs. I don't know if that necessarily means I'm working them more. It's almost impossible to breathe with them stretched that far though, so maybe horizontal is better.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 12, Monday

Bodyweight: 79.5kg/175lb (target: 175lb)

I've been aiming for a 0.7kg increase per week in bodyweight, but I'm going to reduce this to 1lb (0.45kg) and start tracking it in pounds as it's easier.

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 ........... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5 ........... up 2.5
90 x 5 ........... up 5
100 x 5 .......... up 4 ......... (220lb) ........ PR!

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 .......... warmup
30 x 9 ........... warmup
50 x 5 ........... up 2.5
55 x 5 ........... up 2.5
60 x 5 ........... up 1.5
65 x 5 ........... up 1.5
71 x 3 ........... up 1 ......... (156lb) ........ FAIL

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
50 x 5
56 x 5 .......... up 1
62.5 x 2 ....... up 1.5 ........ (138lb) ........ FAIL

4. Abs - 5 second horizontal holds

2.5kg x 8
2.5kg x 8
2.5kg x 6 ...... FAIL!


Comments

I'm going to get such a big case of the 'I told you so's from Blut Wump

Squats were ok, but not easy. I won't be going for another big increase like I've done over the past couple of weeks. 2.5kg (5.5lb) per week from now on.

I bumped all the sets on bench and failed the top one. No matter how hard I pushed, the 4th rep just wasn't moving today. Last week was incredibly hard, so maybe my strength isn't improving quite as fast as the increases I'm attempting and I needed to fail this week to let my strength catch up a bit. That's one way of looking at it

Rows were a joke. Max would have been proud. I only managed two or three reps that even remotely resembled a row. I don't know whether to retry this again next week or even drop the weight a bit and build up again. Something that I don't like about these is that when I get to the top set, I use a 20kg (44lb) plate, which means the bar starts off higher than all the other sets, so the ROM is less and it feels completely different. Maybe I should not use the larger plates and stick with the smaller ones, at least until I'm strong enough to do two or three sets above 60kg (1 plate each side).

Abs - I tried doing these to horizontal and breathing, but breathing seemed to make them even harder because I released the tension in my core and I had to try even harder with my abs to hold my body up. It hurt so much I had to give up on the final set. I think I'll reduce the time to a 2 second hold because it's the holding my breath bit that kills me.

So... do I need to deload? I still don't think so as my squat is going up. My bench was really close last week, so I'm not surprised I failed today. Rows, well, they're always a bit sloppy, but I was a bit surprised how bad they were today.

I think I'll just retry this workout next week. Oh, and I'm not going to bump my deadlift this week, since I wasn't happy with last week's performance.

 

[blut wump]

You're a front-line trooper.

I have one thought with the squats: do you think these recent jumps are actually recent gains or, maybe, it's just that the weights are catching up to gains you've been making as you've transitioned to free squats? Congrats on the new PR.

I haven't really looked at your bench ramp before but the earlier sets could be taking a lot out of you. The 50Kg start set is probably over 60% of your 1RM and is over 70% of your target set. Maybe starting at 40Kg would ease the top end.

On the rows, I know what you mean about the plate sizes. Maybe you could rest the barbell on something to compensate for the height difference. In time your basic lifts are going to be 60Kg+ and anything lower just warmup weight so you might as well grow accustomed to the height of the 20s asap.

Regarding deloading, only you can tell. I usually notice being loaded by how much willpower I'm having to exert to do my later sets as the mind-numbness sets in. If they're merely heavy then keep going.

 

[anotherbutters]

I was wondering the same on squats. They are always hard, but it still feels like I've been taking up some slack, which is why I did the big increase. I suspect I'm currently gaining because I'm still learning how to recruit the muscles, not just because they're getting stronger. Were you thinking along the lines of "this is a neural efficiency gain, not a real PR, he still needs to deload"? If that's possible.

I have been quite aggressive on ramping up the earlier sets on bench and you're right, I've probably overdone it a bit. This week's increases were just to get me to nice round figures to work with, but I should probably have left them for a few more weeks. I might drop them down again next week. It's nice when someone else points out what I won't admit to myself

Good point on rows, thanks. I hadn't thought about going the other way and starting all the sets from the higher height. It seems like I can build up more momentum from the lower starting point, which helps, but maybe that's just because those sets are lighter. I'll try resting the smaller plates on a few bits of wood or something on Friday.

On deloading, the worse day for mind-numbness is deadlift day, which is why I commented on reducing the sets the other day. I was thinking about it earlier - it's been a while since I've really looked forward to a workout and gone into it keen and eager. I'm dreading Wednesday (deads) already. I keep changing my mind as to whether I need to take a break or not and still don't know

(Sorry, I need to spread k around again, but IOU)

 

[blut wump]

I was wondering the same on squats. They are always hard, but it still feels like I've been taking up some slack, which is why I did the big increase. I suspect I'm currently gaining because I'm still learning how to recruit the muscles, not just because they're getting stronger. Were you thinking along the lines of "this is a neural efficiency gain, not a real PR, he still needs to deload"? If that's possible.

There will be some neural efficiency aspect as your conditioning improves. I was think more along the line of its being ages since you set the deep 93Kg squat on the Smith and you'll have continued to get stronger over the intervening time. Your smaller, stabilizing, muscles have obviously now caught up along with hams etc and you're able to apply strength that you may have had already for a while. Like you say, 'taking up some slack'.

Of course, squatting heavier will be adding to the overall systemic load.

Just try to maintain an awareness of the level of fatigue. If you find it to be but a minor hassle then deload at your leisure. If you find it worsening then you should definitely deload.

 

[blut wump]

I tried to think about my breathing today while doing the horizontal holds. I do breathe but it's a very shallow upper-chest breathing. Almost like using my lungs without altering the volume of my chest. Maybe it's a technique I picked up somewhere.

 

[anotherbutters]

Ok, I'll have to try that. I was thinking of reducing the time to 2 secs until I've managed to bump the weight up a bit and I'm a bit stronger down there. It might just be that I've got appallingly weak abs. This is the first direct work I've done on them for a few months.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Unlucky. The fails were bound to happen sooner or later. I don't that think a couple of fails is enough to make you deload, though.

I wouldn't worry too much. You may have had an off day, or some other intervening factor may have been the cause. Just attempt the lifts again next week and you should make them.

Out of interest, how did you get the bar off your chest when you failed the bench?

 

[anotherbutters]

I workout at home on one of these:

http://www.fitness-superstore.co.uk/product_info_new.asp?prdID=3434

I just lowered the bar down to the spotter bars, although I had to let every last drop of air out of me before it'd rest on them I managed to slide out to the side after that. First time I'm used them!

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 12, Wednesday

Bodyweight: 79.5kg/175lb

1. Light freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ....... warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5 .......... up 2.5
80 x 5 .......... up 2.5
80 x 5 .......... up 2.5 ............ (176lb)

2. Deads (kg)
50 x 9 .......... warmup
75 x 5
85 x 5
100 x 5 ........ overhand
117.5 x 5 ..... 2 overhand, 3 mixed
135 x 4 ........ mixed, no straps ... (297lb) ....... FAIL

3. Military Press (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
31 x 5
33.5 x 5
36 x 5
41 x 5 .......... up 1
46 x 5 .......... up 1 ................ (101lb) ......... PR!

4. Pullups
BW x 5
BW x 4
BW x 3
BW x 3
BW x 2
= 17 reps, same as PR (again)

Comments

I tried the same weight as last week on deads because I wasn't happy that I got 5 straight reps last week - it was more like a triple. They were better than last week, but I still missed out on the PR, so increasing the weight wouldn't have been worth it anyway.

Last week, I only did 3 reps on the 4th set (to save myself for the final set) and I did them mixed grip. Today I did 5 reps and managed the first two overhand, which is progress.

On the final set, I got 4 reps with mixed grip, no straps, but didn't even attempt the final rep. The 4th rep was only just locked out and I had to put the bar down quickly because my grip was failing. I had the straps there but didn't even think to use them becaue the 4th rep was so taxing. I think my form was getting sloppy on the 4th rep and I really felt as though I'd injure myself if I attempted another rep. I didn't know whether to ignore the feelings and go for it or listen to myself and quit. Sadly, I did the latter. Anyway, it was a much better effort than last week, so I'm relatively happy. I'll get it next week. I'm so close to three plates...!

Military surprised me - another PR! I started off on quite a light weight, so these are big increases I'm managing week after week. I broke the 100lb barrier today! There's something nice and primitive about lifting a heavy weight above your head. Grrrr...

Pullups - same as last week. I think I'm going to reduce these to four sets. The last two sets are always done on empty and the final set is always a joke - I didn't really get any reps today, just two 'reasonable efforts'. I think if I cut down to four sets, I'll be able to put more into them as I'm not holding out 'till the end.

 

[blut wump]

Since you seem to be near to a limit on deadlift, maybe it's time to play with the volume of the lesser sets. I was just looking at my ramp to hit 140 on my W4D3 in the Korte: 60x8, 80x5, 100x3, 120x2, 130x1, 140 x 5

I was looking through the instructions for the SF 5x5 the other day and manipulating volume like this seems to be part of the plan. Actually, it might have been one of your early posts in this thread.

Congrats on the 100lbs press.

 

[anotherbutters]

You're right again, I might need to think about stuff like that. I hoped I wouldn't hit this point quite so soon.

I got that info from a Pendlay/Rippetoe article here but it isn't that detailed.

It just says 'when you stop increasing the weights', but I'm still improving on squats, which are the cornerstone of the program. Here's where I'm up to:

squats..... just increased 16.5lb in two weeks
bench...... failed this week
rows........ failed this week
deadlifts... failed 3 weeks running, but very slowly getting easier
military..... still increasing
pullups..... stalled for 2 weeks

I'm inclinced to say that doesn't constitute a plateau, but it would if things don't change next week. I'm hoping that squats will carry over some strength increases to the other lifts and that I'll set PRs in bench and deads next week, and maybe pullups if I cut the sets down so I can focus more. Rows might need a bit more work.

But yes, the next thing I should try is reducing some of the warmup sets. I think I'll try for PRs again next week and if it all goes a bit pear shaped, I'll reduce the warmups. Sound reasonable?

This is where a book like Practical Periodization would be invaluable. Questions like this probably have really straightforward answers.

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

I think next week you should attempt the same weights for bench and row, obviously increase military press, and lower the 'warmup' sets for deads while trying to make 135kg for the final set.

Ignoring the fact that the program actually calls for four sets of deads, you could do something like:
70
85
100
112.5
135

... Or something similar

Another thing to consider is that you are now eating 100 - 200 calories less than your maintenance level (according to your location) and your body weight has stayed the same since you altered your diet. So any weight increases on any of the lifts will be much harder to come by, and the weight increases now will more likely be due to increased neural efficiency rather than increased muscle size.

Then again, we can't all be fat slobs.

 

[Numani]

my $0.02

lower the inital sets on the bench press. would think they might be taking up too much pressing energy.

use the 10kg plates on rows - when you use the 20kg it changes it up a lot. i know from experience.

deadlifts. back off on the weights. make your top set 125kg and go for it again.

pull ups. I know the program is five sets. But I would do more sets.
next workout do bw for 8sets of 3 reps . i doubt you will fail on any set. do this a couple of times then come back to the five sets of your best approach.

 

[anotherbutters]

I think next week you should attempt the same weights for bench and row, obviously increase military press, and lower the 'warmup' sets for deads while trying to make 135kg for the final set.

Ignoring the fact that the program actually calls for four sets of deads, you could do something like:
70
85
100
112.5
135

... Or something similar

Another thing to consider is that you are now eating 100 - 200 calories less than your maintenance level (according to your location) and your body weight has stayed the same since you altered your diet. So any weight increases on any of the lifts will be much harder to come by, and the weight increases now will more likely be due to increased neural efficiency rather than increased muscle size.

Then again, we can't all be fat slobs.

Thanks. I'll retry the bench at the same weight like you say. I'm going to experiment with rows as BW suggested and lift the lighter weights from some kind of platform, so the bar starts off at the same height as it is on the final set (with 20kg plates). I'm not sure what weight I'll do, but it might well be a retry of the failed weight rather than a reduction - depends how the warmups go.

My location was a joke - eating my bodyweight in food, i.e. 170lb+ of food, because that's what it feels like sometimes And I knocked off 100-200 calories because that's what someone suggested when I said I was getting fat My weight fluctuates a bit, so the bodyweight I post sometimes misses a day where I'm actually heavier. On average, I'm still getting heavier.

Skinny boy

 

[anotherbutters]

Numani, yeh, I was a bit too aggressive ramping up the bench warmups sets, and I'll be decreasing them a little. On rows, Blut Wump pointed out that eventually, I'll be doing more than one set with the full size plates, so I might as well get used to lifting from that height.

With deadlifts, I'm very close to getting this PR and I think I'll get it next week. Dropping back to 125kg is too big a drop.

Interesting point on pullups though - I hadn't thought of stopping at 3 reps. 8x3 is the same volume, but I never get all the reps on 5x5, so I might end up with more acheived volume if I try 8x3. I don't know if volume is going to get me stronger though.

 

[Numani]

Numani, yeh, I was a bit too aggressive ramping up the bench warmups sets, and I'll be decreasing them a little. On rows, Blut Wump pointed out that eventually, I'll be doing more than one set with the full size plates, so I might as well get used to lifting from that height.

With deadlifts, I'm very close to getting this PR and I think I'll get it next week. Dropping back to 125kg is too big a drop.

Interesting point on pullups though - I hadn't thought of stopping at 3 reps. 8x3 is the same volume, but I never get all the reps on 5x5, so I might end up with more acheived volume if I try 8x3. I don't know if volume is going to get me stronger though.

volume will get you stronger provided you don't hit failure on the sets. that techique on pull-ups is a recognised techique. you train your body/nervous system by repeating the exercise numerous times without your form breaking down - greasing the groove.

on the deads. i admire the desire to get that PR. but you should be looking further out - like on this cycle getting that 140kg. 3 plates deads. i would take a step back. you have probably over reached at the moment (not overtrained). take 125 or 130 for ride then back to that 135kg. a mild tapering off will do no harm and set you on your way to continue this cycle.

but hey your in the gym lifting Im just suggesting...lol!!

 

[blut wump]

Volume will get you stronger so long as it's stressful and you're stretching yourself to attain it. Take my Korte volume phase as an example.

Hi, Numani, looks like yours is yet another voice whispering "Deload" but another week isn't going to do any harm for another stab at 135.

I think 140 is going to take some manipulation to reach unless you happen to have a really good day.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I like numani's idea of backng off the dead then "mini-ramping" to see if you hit it. Since your overall approach is still supercompensation I think that backing off one exercise would be OK.

 

[anotherbutters]

Hey what's this, gang up on AB night?

Ok, lesson learnt: volume is good for strength too. I'll try 8x3 for pullups next week. I'll probably like them better because I know I can do 3 with good form and have a bit left in reserve.

Deads - 3 plates is a good short term goal for me and you're all right (dammit) - even if I get 135 next week, I doubt I'll get 137.5 then 140 over the following two weeks.

Mmm, okay then... you win...

How far to back off on the deads then - two weeks? Like 125, 130, 135, then 2.5kg per week as I've done until now? I'm beginning to like the sound of that already - it'll be like a two week holiday

 

[Guinness5.0]

How far to back off on the deads then - two weeks? Like 125, 130, 135, then 2.5kg per week as I've done until now? I'm beginning to like the sound of that already - it'll be like a two week holiday

Looks good to me. I'd say two weeks where you KNOW FOR SURE you'll nail it, but this is just a guess and not based on experience.

 

[blut wump]

I'd be more inclined to drop volume on the earlier sets than back down the top set by 10Kg. Like G5.0, though, I can't offer that as advice.

If you're looking to deload, do it across the board for a week rather than exercise by exercise.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 12, Friday

Bodyweight: 80kg (176lb)

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5 ........... up 2.5
90 x 5 ........... up 2.5
102.5 x 3 ....... up 2.5 ...... (226lb)
80 x 8

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
30 x 9 .......... warmup
47.5 x 5
52.5 x 5
58.5 x 5
63.5 x 5
71 x 3 .......... no change ........ (156lb)
60 x 8 .......... up 1.5 (couldn't be bothered unloading and putting 58.5 on)

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
51 x 5 ............ up 1
56 x 5
62.5 x 3 ......... no change ...... (138lb)
51 x 8 ............ up 1

4. Abs - horizontal holds (2-3 seconds)
2.5kg x 8
2.5kg x 8
2.5kg x 8

Comments

Squats - not a problem. Hard, but I probably could have knocked out 5 reps on the triple. I might sneak in a cheeky kilo extra on Monday.

Bench - my form was lousy today, just couldn't get into the groove. I was too loose - forgetting to drive with the legs, lowering my chest, stuff like that. I got the triple ok, although I banged the safety bar on one of the reps. I think I'll get the PR on Monday ok.

Rows - I did all the sets with piles of wood under the plates to raise the bar to the height it would be with full sized plates. I ended up doing the top set with smaller plates rather than move the wood to put the big plates on. Using the smaller plates for the triple made it seem easier because they look lighter

Anyway, all the sets seemed completely normal with the higher bar. I think it must have been the sudden difference in height from one set to the next that made the difference last week. I need to make the wooden stacks a bit more secure though - every time I finished a set and turned my back, the bar rolled off and crashed to the floor As for the weights and the lousy form I had on Monday - they were ok today. I stood up a bit on the final rep on the triple, but if I can get 5 reps on Monday as good as today, the job's a good'n.

Abs - Blut Wump, I figured out what you mean about the shallow breathing now. It's a very shallow breath, like you're hiding from someone (...imagines Blut Wump with an axe over his shoulder in a dark alley) and don't want them to hear you breathe You'll remember this next time you do abs and I'll probably put you off now I still couldn't hold the position for more than 4 seconds for the whole set, but I'll keep plodding on and increasing the weight.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I know what you mean about little changes affecting your lifts. I get thrown off easily by stuff like that.

The times (yes plural) that I've broken mp3 players in the gym my workouts have always suffered.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 13, Monday

Bodyweight: 80kg/176lb (target: 176lb)

1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 ........... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5
90 x 5
102.5 x 5 ....... up 2.5 ......... (226lb) ........ PR!

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 .......... warmup
30 x 9 ........... warmup
47.5 x 5 ......... down 2.5
52.5 x 5 ......... down 2.5
58.5 x 5 ......... down 1.5
63.5 x 5 ......... down 1.5
71 x 5 ........... same ......... (156lb) ........ PR!

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
50 x 5
56 x 5
62.5 x 3 ....... same ........ (138lb) ........ FAIL

4. Abs - 3 second horizontal holds
3.75kg x 3 x 8 (up 1.25)


Comments

I went out on Sat night and had a bit of a skin full, then didn't eat that well yesterday. I know, not in line with my goals, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Predictably, this workout wasn't great.

Squats - I didn't throw in the extra kilo on top of the 2.5kg increase and got it ok. Hard, but I got it.

Bench - I got the PR, but the final rep stalled half way up and I had to scream to finish it, if ever so slowly. If I eat well, hopefully I'll get away with an increase on Friday for a triple, but I think it's going to be difficult. Next increase is 1.5kg.

Rows - these were better than last week and I did 5 reps, but I couldn't complete them without standing up on the last couple of reps. I'm disappointed I've failed these again, but I've only got myself to blame.

Abs - I'm getting into these now. Three small breaths per rep gives me my three count. I did my weekly weight increase today, using two small plates. Whenever I get to the 7th or 8th rep with these, I can feel quite a lot of pressure on my lower back. Is this normal? It doesn't feel quite right and this is why I stopped at 6 reps last week. I do them sat on the end of the bench with my legs in the leg extension bar, which is locked in place.

 

[blackwell33]

'notherbutter,

I had the same question about the pressure on my lower back during situps. I do my declined with either a 35lb or 45 lb plate on my chest. It seems to be getting better with time, but I have felt a lot of pressure there and small amount of tenderness the day after. So, you're not the only one. Any thoughts on a solution?

 

[blut wump]

Ironically, the solution is to get stronger abs.

In the meantime, give more thought to the arch in your lower back and trying not to stress it. Maybe drop the horizontal holds for a while and go to crunches and bridge/plank work. On the crunches make sure that you are bending forwards with your back rather than using hip flexion.

 

[anotherbutters]

Come to think of it, most of the movement I do is with my hips. I'm just using my abs to keep my core straight. Is that right for the horizontal holds? It's only the final couple of reps where I can start to feel it in my back, so I could just cut down to 6 reps or play it by ear until my abs are a bit stronger.

Sorry, but what's bridge/plank work?

 

[blut wump]

It depends on what you want to work. If you're using hips then you're working hips. With the horizontal hold, there's bound to be a fair amount of hip action in there. Just try to make more of the effort be on your abs as you come up.

The plank is where you support your weight on your feet and forearms either to the front or to either side. It's a static hold and you go for time, keeping your body straight. As an intro to it, start on your front and hold for 15s, flip to one side for 15s, front again, other side. Call that one set. Don't rest but keep going for more sets or for total time. Later increase the duration of each hold, 30s, one minute, etc.

You can also just do the front and hold until failure or similarly with the sides. I never enjoyed doing them on my back since I found it uncomfortable on my elbows.

If it starts to feel generally too easy, you can start by raising a leg and moving it off to the side and extending an arm out to the front.

 

[anotherbutters]

Ughh! Sounds like a workout for girls and old people

 

[blut wump]

it's hard work.

I used to go to an abs class and there was a core of four of use who'd been doing it for months. One day we had a substitute instructor in who looked at the clock near the end of the session and noted that there were three minutes remaining and said we could do planks until failure. The four of us looked at each other and all laughed. He got ever so pissy when I told him that there wasn't enough time left.

Another fine static hold is to lay on your back and raise your feet about three inches. Try to get up to around five minutes. It helps on back strain to stick your hands under your buttocks.

These are every bit as good as crunches and sit-ups if not better and need no equipment more than a floor.

 

[anotherbutters]

I used to do weighted leg raises, but I could never do them with my hands under my butt because my torso would rise instead of my feet. I had to hold the bench behind my back to keep my torso down and I was never happy with the position. I was up to 12kg for 8-12 reps. Then I'd do cable crunches.

It's interesting that the exercises you mentioned are holds for a period of time, which is unlike training any other muscle. I thought abs were no different from other muscles and you'd have to train them for reps and add resistance to make them stronger.

 

[Guinness5.0]

It's interesting that the exercises you mentioned are holds for a period of time, which is unlike training any other muscle. I thought abs were no different from other muscles and you'd have to train them for reps and add resistance to make them stronger.

IMO the holds are good b/c the abs serve to stabilize your body in damn near every exercise you do. So to train them in a manner similar to the role they play as assistors with some static stuff seems like a damn good idea.

Also I've been told that static contractions will work muscles that don't get worked through dynamic ab movements, such as crunches.

 

[blut wump]

The abs class I mentioned earlier was run by a real hard-core nutter. We'd do a goodly mixture of static holds and movements for reps over a half hour period twice a week. Dropping a medicine ball on your abs with bent legs (you not the ball) is another good one. We realised that we were making progress when we did 150 crunches as a warm-down.

Re the static holds, you can work a lot of different muscles in that fashion. Like G5.0 says, they get worked like that a lot as stabilizers. A classic martial arts training exercise is low horse stance for duration. It's basically a wide, parallel squat held for time. I have a friend who can hold it for six or seven minutes.

 

[anotherbutters]

Good point G5.0.

I'm getting all excited about trying different ways of training abs now

30 minutes sounds like an eternity! I did an '8 minute abs' routine a while back that I picked up from somewhere. There were about 10 different exercises you'd do non-stop and it was an absolute killer. I could never remember which exercise to do next and had to keep referring to my notes though.

 

[Vita]

WOW, can't believe i read all that!

congrats on all the progress you've made.

i'm going to be starting this program in a week or so after getting my body/heart back into the groove, and just wanted to say i hope to do as well as you've been doing!

i haven't lifted seriously for the past year so we'll see how that goes.

either way, i just wanted you to know that this journal has been a motivation for me! thanks!

 

[anotherbutters]

Thanks!

I can't believe I wrote all that - I've made over 300 posts now and most of them are probably in here. I'm glad to have been of motivational assistance! Any q's, just ask.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 13, Wednesday

Bodyweight: 80kg/176lb

1. Light freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ....... warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5
80 x 5 ........... no change .......... (176lb)
(only did 4 sets)

2. Deads (kg)
50 x 9 .......... warmup
75 x 5
85 x 5
100 x 5 ........................... overhand
112.5 x 5 ..... down 5 ........ 4 overhand, 1 mixed
125 x 5 ........ down 10 ...... mixed, no straps ... (275lb) .... not a PR attempt

3. Military Press (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
31 x 5
33.5 x 5
36 x 5
41 x 5
47.5 x 4 ........ up 1.5 ................ (105lb) ......... FAIL

4. Pullups
BW x 3 x 8 (only 2 reps on 5th set)


Comments

I upped the pace a little today because I think I've been slacking a bit. I started most of the sets 2 minutes after the previous one (so about 90 seconds rest), apart from the heavy sets and some of the pullups. I ditched one set of squats, but did three more sets of pullups, yet knocked off about 10 minutes from the workout. Down to 70 mins, which I'm happy about.

Squats - knocked a set off, down to four sets, mainly to help with deadlifts.

Deads - I noticed when I switched from straight to mixed grip, the bar rotated and pulled the skin on the left hand fingers. That's been happening the past few weeks, but I only realised why today. It didn't do it on the final set though. Hmm...

Following your collective advice last week, I decided to drop down to 125kg today. I'll do 130 next week, then attempt the 135 PR after that. 125 still felt close to my limit, but I knew I could get it.

Military was hard last week and I only just got the final rep. Today's increase was quite big at 3.3%, but I just couldn't get the final rep. I'm happy I got four reps to be honest, given how close it was last week.

I liked pullups today. The thing that's really cool about keeping a journal on here is that people you've never spoken to can just pop in any say "hey buddy, have you tried this...?" and give you advice. numani - thanks again bro. I tried your suggestion of 8x3 and got them all, bar one in the middle. After the first set, I thought is that it? Then it clicked - if I stick to 3 reps, I won't be going to failure on every set like I have been doing, and I can get the volume in. Cool!

There have been quite a few failures recently so I'm going to draw up another little progress chart in a minute in another post. Then we can see where I am and try to figure out whether it's time to change things. And it'll bring Glenn up to speed quickly

 

[anotherbutters]

Summary so far...

week bodywt squat bench  dead    military row
-----------------------------------------------
1    72     83    55     110     33       48
2    72     88    60     115     34       50.5
3    73     90.5  61     120     35.5     51.5
4    73     93    62.5   122.5   36.5     53
5    74     50    63.5F  125     38       54
6    75     60    63.5   127.5F  38.5     55.5
7    76     80    65     127.5   40       56
8    76.5   85    66     130     41       57.5
9    77     90    67.5   132.5   42.5     58.5
10   78     92.5  68.5   135F    43.5     60
11   79     96    70     135F    45       61
12   79.5   100   71F    135F    46       62.5F
13   80     102.5 71     125     47.5F    62.5F

All weights in kg.  F = failure

Squats - these are still going up because I switched to freeweights in week 5, so I'm new to them.

Bench - I barely got the PR this week, so you could say these have stalled.

Deads - I've found these really hard from 127.5kg, after which I started hitching without understanding what hitching was (since stopped). The 132.5 dead sounded like a good solid 5 reps from my written notes, and I followed it with a very-nearly-but-failed single for 140kg (which I later realised was 145kg).

Military - failed for the first time in 13 weeks today.

Rows - looking back at my notes, my form seemed to start getting worse around 60kg. Most of my 62.5kg reps have been pretty lousy.

Pullups - I haven't been able to do bodyweight pullups for long, but I don't 'seem' to be getting stronger now I can do them. It's difficult to say. The number of reps I can do seems to be staying constant even though my bodyweight's going up, so is that progress?


So, what should I do next? With deads, I've decided to drop back to 125kg this week and ramp up to another 135 attempt. I don't know what to do with the other lifts. I could go back to 60kg on the rows, but I don't know if that's the best approach to take with everything.

Or should I lower the weight on all the lifts and start doing a flat 5x5 on each of them and ramp those up, aka loading? Then switch back to ramping when I plateau again?

I read somewhere (I think written by Glenn/Ripp) that I could try adding another day's workout, so I'd do four days, but I'm not sure how to go about that or whether it's appropriate.

So, a number of options. Each of them might work ok, but I don't know if there's a better one. Comments?

 

[blut wump]

You can add dropping volume on your lesser sets to that list of options. Lose volume on the lesser sets to be able to do a shade more on the top set and then try to bring things up as time passes.

Before dropping the weight and increasing to a 5x5, I'd suggest lowering volume for a while and increasing weight. A kind of mini periodizing but without the over-reaching.

 

[anotherbutters]

Yup, option 4 - lower warmup reps. Forgot about that one, thanks.

When you say lowering volume, did you mean the above, or dropping to triples or somesuch? Because I'm sure I remember Glenn/Ripp mention dropping down to triples, doubles or even singles somewhere too. There are so many ways of going about this.

 

[blut wump]

I had triples in mind but you could nicely lead into doubles and even some singles. Spend a little time working on neural efficiency before bumping the volume back to 5s. The single factor approach is as valid for the lower reps as for the higher. It's just unlikely that you can run it for long but then you drop the weight and go back to volume and work up again. That's why my votes were going towards keeping the weight up: you've yet to explore pushing for some heavy low-rep work.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I don't want to extrapolate too much from your chart but I couldn't help but notice one thing: you've failed the least on military and it's improved the most percentage-wise.

Not conclusive by any means but interesting nonetheless.

 

[anotherbutters]

I really like the idea of doing triples for a while actually. I'm just wondering how I'd set it up and whether to include back off sets. I could just do it like a DF intensity phase. Combinations of 3x3 and 1x3 like this:

Mon: squat 3x3, bench and row 1x3
Wed: light squats, dead and mil press 3x3, pullups 3x8
Fri: squat 1x3, bench and row 3x3

and try to increase the weight each week on each (1x3 and 3x3 independently).

 

[Guinness5.0]

I really like the idea of doing triples for a while actually. I'm just wondering how I'd set it up and whether to include back off sets. I could just do it like a DF intensity phase. Combinations of 3x3 and 1x3 like this:

Mon: squat 3x3, bench and row 1x3
Wed: light squats, dead and mil press 3x3, pullups 3x8
Fri: squat 1x3, bench and row 3x3

and try to increase the weight each week on each (1x3 and 3x3 independently).

That IS a deload, no matter how you slice it. I'm not saying that's bad (or good); just calling a spade a spade.

I wonder if you'd want to increase volume in order to keep the workload similar while doing triples, or if you'd just deload and hammer the triples for now.

I LOVE that you're at this point A-B: kinda climactic to see where you go from here. I may have to hit up the store for some popcorn.

 

[blut wump]

That should be fun.

The DF intensity phase, of course, aims for hitting maxes withing three weeks which needn't be your goal. You can keep the straight single factor approach running until you begin to stall. Just keep alert for signs of loading and general wear and tear.

 

[Madcow2]

I wonder how you'd manage volume in order to keep the workload similar while doing triples, or if you'd just deload and hammer the triple sfor now.

Calculate it out 5x5 = 25 reps, 3x8 = 24 reps if the poundage is held constant you wind up with roughly the same load (minus the one rep). This is what superrice did on the Korte program as he was getting too fatigued, he kept the target weight constant but lowered the reps and increased the sets (there are other factors but it's fairly equivalent and a nice workaround).

Of course if the weight is going to move just multiply reps X weight and you arrive at tonnage to make a comparison.

A lot of info here with some sample calcs to get the feel for it and the info at the top (more in the link at the top) will provide the definitions and framework for workload calcs: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686

 

[anotherbutters]

Thanks G5.0. Yeh, I'm really, really proud of the military results. I'd never done them before the DF 5x5 that preceeded this SF, but I thought the 'new exercise' gains would have slowed down long ago.

Yes, I realise that's a deload. I forgot to mention in my previous post that I'd also considered throwing in back-off sets to keep the overall load the same to maintain my conditioning. Maybe a deload will do me good though. I don't feel fatigued, but I've been at this for 13 weeks straight so that's a lot of time for it to creep up on me slowly without me realising.

If nothing else, dropping to triples means I can already say I got 3 plates on deads

Sit back and enjoy

 

[Guinness5.0]

Calculate it out 5x5 = 25 reps, 3x8 = 24 reps if the poundage is held constant you wind up with roughly the same load (minus the one rep). This is what superrice did on the Korte program as he was getting too fatigued, he kept the target weight constant but lowered the reps and increased the sets (there are other factors but it's fairly equivalent and a nice workaround).

Of course if the weight is going to move just multiply reps X weight and you arrive at tonnage to make a comparison.

A lot of info here with some sample calcs to get the feel for it and the info at the top (more in the link at the top) will provide the definitions and framework for workload calcs: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686

I edited my post b/c I worded it poorly.

I was wondering 'aloud' whether A-B would want to keep the workload the same while transitioning to triples, or simply deload and let the workload come back up as his triples progressed.

Does that make sense?

EDIT (sorry, it's one of those days): For example rather than 3x3 doing 5x3 or whatever # of sets that net him a rigorous session approximating the workload of the 5x5 scheme, then progressing on that scheme.

 

[anotherbutters]

Calculate it out 5x5 = 25 reps, 3x8 = 24 reps if the poundage is held constant you wind up with roughly the same load (minus the one rep).

Eight triples? Bugger, I thought I was going to have an easy time with this

Actually, that's not right because I've been doing 1x5 ramping, so 8 triples would be more load. I might do the loading calculation for each lift, do 3x3's and throw in some back-off sets based on the calculation. Overall, keeping the load about the same or a little less.

BW: sorry, that's what I meant - a 3x3 scheme, but carrying on SF style with triple PR attempts starting next week if I pick the weights right.

Edit for G5.0: wow, this thread's really moving tonight In answer to your question, I'm not sure myself whether I want to do 3x3 and deload or 3x3 plus something else to maintain the load and keep an eye out for fatigue like BW said. And sorry if I appear to keep changing my mind

 

[Madcow2]

Probably a lot of things he could do. It's pretty open ended. I haven't kept tabs recently but if he stalled and major lifts aren't progressing (and to be honest, if the squat is still moving up I wouldn't make massive changes) he can change some things. He could change his rep range and hold workload constant allowing him to train with different weights - might get him some progression. He could back off for a week or so (i.e. like a deload, maybe work on triples) and then reset his weights a bit below previous records and try to blast through again after a couple of weeks. Hell he could even use a 'shock' technique where maybe you do 20 rep squats or even perform 5x5 with your best 1x5 (just take a lot of time, rerack if necessary, this will suck but get all the reps in - I think Glenn uses this sometimes or a variation). He could probably do a combination of these things but those are some ideas in the raw that usually work to get one past a stalled point without materially altering a longer term training plan.

Maybe give a few days and see if Glenn chimes in or see if he'll look at your recent stall and suggest something - it would be valuable for others I'm sure as some people are using the same program and stalling is inevitable. He might provide something unique or help select and reaffirm one of the options we've talked about.

 

[anotherbutters]

I haven't kept tabs recently but if he stalled and major lifts aren't progressing (and to be honest, if the squat is still moving up I wouldn't make massive changes) he can change some things.

I added a 'summary so far' in post 265 above. I've basically done a text book single factor with minimal assistance exercises so far.

My squat might be a bit of a red herring because I'm new to doing them freeweight.

Maybe give a few days and see if Glenn chimes in or see if he'll look at your recent stall and suggest something - it would be valuable for others I'm sure as some people are using the same program and stalling is inevitable. He might provide something unique or help select and reaffirm one of the options we've talked about.

That's what I was hoping, but I've had some great advice already from everyone tonight. Thanks guys.

Must spread k again...

 

[anotherbutters]

If nothing else, dropping to triples means I can already say I got 3 plates on deads

Just realised I'm wrong. I've done a triple at 135kg, but not three plates (140kg). Something to aim for I guess...

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 13, Friday

Bodyweight: 80kg/176lb (should have gone up by now - need to eat more)

I wasn't sure what to do today, whether to do a normal SF 5x5 workout or switch to 3x3. I did a normal workout because I wanted to see how a higher weight on bench would feel, since the PR on Monday was very close to failure for the 2nd week running. I knew squats would go up. For rows, I dropped the weight a little to see where my form would break.


1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5
90 x 5
105 x 3 ......... up 2.5 ...... (231lb)
80 x 8

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 ......... warmup
30 x 9 .......... warmup
47.5 x 5
52.5 x 5
58.5 x 5
63.5 x 5
72.5 x 3 ........ up 1.5 ........ (160lb)
60 x 8

3. Row (kg)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 5
45 x 5
51 x 5
56 x 5
60 x 4 ......... down 2.5 ...... (132lb)
51 x 8

4. Abs - planks
20 secs per side (right, front, left), total 2 min 12 secs


Comments

Squats - hard, but ok. Slowed down on the 3rd rep of the triple, so this weight's about right. The back off set was too light - I rep'd it quite fast for fun.

Bench - I thought this would bury me, but I got the triple. I wouldn't have been able to do 5 reps though. The back-off set was pretty hard. Form was pretty good today. From past experience, I'd say I could get 5 reps on Monday.

Rows - I lowered the weight to see how many good reps I could do. My form was good until the 4th rep, where I started to stand up. A fifth rep would probably have been too bad to count, although I didn't try it. I think I've overstepped my weight on these and should go back to this weight. The back-off set was pretty hard, with my form breaking on the final rep.

Abs - did planks for a laugh, since I said they were a bit sissy last week Ouch! I think I did these right - on my elbows and the sides of my feet/on my toes and nothing else touching the floor. I managed two 'sets' and gave up into the third one. I'm sure I could have gone on for longer, but I was pretty tired by then I should have done a few sets of these, but calling it a night was much more appealing.


After getting the bench triple, I wondered about trying for 5 reps on Monday as per usual and not messing with the workout format just yet. That got me thinking - I should be able to get the squat PR and I was very close on the military PR this week, so I ought to get that next week too. Pullups felt so good this week with the new 8x3 scheme that I even entertained the thought of adding a little weight for the first time (maybe just 2lb).

So that leaves rows and deads. I don't feel like I've gotten stronger on either of them for a while. Heavier rows just get more messy and heavier deads just bury me further into the ground.

I'm thinking of leaving most of the set/rep schemes as they are, but changing rows and deads to 3x3, so a bit of a hybrid workout. Something like 1x3 rows on Monday, then 3x3 deads on Wed and 3x3 rows on Fri. Sound good?

 

[blut wump]

Sounds good to me if it sounds good to you.

With the planks, you can use your whole forearm rather than just your elbow.

 

[anotherbutters]

Sweet! Yeah, sorry, I meant forearm. I should have done a bit more ab work but couldn't decide what to do.


Ok, let's see how I'll do this to keep the overall tonnage about the same...

Tonnage for my last successful Monday row workout:

40 x 5 = 200
45 x 5 = 225
50 x 5 = 250
55 x 5 = 275
61 x 5 = 305
------------
total = 1255kg

The Friday workout comes to 1533kg, so those are my rough targets.


Proposed first 1x3:

40 x 2 = 80 (warmup)
51 x 3 = 153
56 x 3 = 168
62.5 x 3 = 187.5
63.5 x 2 = 127
50 x 8 = 400 (backoff)
---------------
total = 1115.5kg (target 1255)

I know it isn't quite a 1x3, but in the spirit of a 1x3, I've worked up to a high intensity for low reps and thrown in a double for good measure. I had to add a back off set to keep the volume up.

Proposed first 3x3:

40 x 2 = 80 (warmup)
50 x 1 = 50 (warmup)
60 x 3 = 180
60 x 3 = 180
60 x 3 = 180
60 x 3 = 180
50 x 8 = 400 (backoff)
------------
total = 1250kg (target 1533)

To keep the volume up, I had to make this a 4x3 and throw in a backoff set again, but the volume is still a bit low. It looks like it's going to do me a lot of good anyway - lots of reps right on the edge of what I can do with good form.


I'll do the same calc for deads. I just posted the above so you can see what I'm thinking.

 

[anotherbutters]

Ok, for the record, deads come to 2560kg.

Here's the pseudo 3x3 for next week:

75 x 4 = 300
85 x 3 = 255
100 x 2 = 200
117 x 1 = 117
130 x 3 = 390
130 x 3 = 390
130 x 3 = 390
130 x 3 = 390
-------------
total = 2432

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Can't the single factor program work time and again? I don't see why a person couldn't simply break for a week to recuperate, then hammer away at it again, starting a couple notches below where they ended up the first time. For example, for AB, starting back at week 9 or 10, then ramping up weekly from there. He's guaranteed to break week 13, which gives him a solid 4-5 week training plan anyway that he can probably milk growth from, since repeating loads does tend to allow more mass, and chances are he'd continue to break PRs for another couple of weeks, no?

I've heard it said many times before, that DF type training is only really needed near the very advanced and elite levels, and that most recreational lifters really don't need to bother with it. This is just what I've heard, though.

 

[anotherbutters]

Probably. There are lots of ways of going about this. The question is, which one/ones are the most efficient? If I go back to weeks 9/10, I might well break the week 13 'plateau', but is that an efficient use of the next 4/5 weeks?

In the TRAINING NEW LIFTERS - Glenn Pendlay and Mark Ripptoe article, each of the suggestions is to change the workout slightly and sometimes to drop the weights and ramp up again. Nowhere have they suggested simply going back and ramping up in the same fashion again (although that's what I was about to attempt on deads before I decided to switch to 3x3). I'm not taking this advice as gospel, but I've seen other articles by these guys and they always seem to suggest a change of set/rep scheme.

If I change to 3x3 for deads and rows, I'm hoping to break 3x3 PRs within the next couple of weeks or so, so I won't lose as much time as going back to weeks 9/10.

Regarding DF, I'm using 3x3 as a way of increasing the intensity. I'm not attempting to load/deload, hence the quick tonnage calcs above to keep me in the same ballpark. I agree, I should be able to milk SF style workouts for a lot longer. Once the 3x3 gains stop, I'll probably go back to a regular SF 5x5 layout.

 

[blut wump]

I was just looking at the weights on the deads and rows. I think you'll find it hard to make those sets. That's a lot of sets near your current 4-rep max.

If you want to keep simple tonnage up, drop one or two of the 130Kg sets and do a back-off of 100x? to compensate with the earlier 100x2 turned into a 100x3. You can ramp up sets as well as weight to add to progression over time. You could turn the 117 into a double and throw in a 125 double or single.

I could be wrong, of course, but I'm just concerned about the top sets.

 

[anotherbutters]

Shall I just give you all of my k now?

Deads:
75 x 4 = 300
85 x 3 = 255
100 x 3 = 300
117 x 2 = 234
130 x 3 = 390
130 x 3 = 390
100 x 8 = 800
-------------
Total = 2669

Emminently more sensible. Thank you sir!

On rows, I think they were a bit optimistic too. They were more like the weights for 2/3 weeks from now. The more I change the ramping workout, the more it ends up looking like a regular Friday workout with a triple and back-off set. I might as well keep Friday rows as they are. Mondays will become the flat 3x3 set. How about this for the first one then?

Monday rows:
40 x 3 = 120
50 x 3 = 150
58 x 3 = 174
58 x 3 = 174
58 x 3 = 174
50 x 8 = 400
------------
Total = 1192

 

[blut wump]

That looks much more reasonable. You can adjust as time passes but better to start with a clear success. Don't expect those two tops sets to be a piece of cake, though. Also, don't worry overly if the back-off set is too much after the top sets. Getting solid sets in with the heavier weight is the crux of driving up your neural efficiency.

I'm not sure on rows, you're on your own with them. They're so much less taxing than deads so you might be able to take more at the top than with the deadlifts.

You can keep your K, thanks. George would take 30% in taxation.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Is measureing the tonnage an accurate way of determining anything?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Is measureing the tonnage an accurate way of determining anything?

It determines the total amount of work done - he's trying to keep the work the same while going about it in a different way.

One variable at a time. Seems like a decent idea to me, b/c if he changed the rep scheme AND the amount of work (tonnage) he did, he wouldn't be able to pinpoint which aspect was responsible for the results.

 

[blut wump]

Is measureing the tonnage an accurate way of determining anything?

That's probably worth a thread to itself. I think that over small ranges of intensity it's probably a reasonable way to measure workload but when you are moving from distinctly light to distinctly heavy or vice versa then it's of less, if any, significance.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

That's probably worth a thread to itself. I think that over small ranges of intensity it's probably a reasonable way to measure workload but when you are moving from distinctly light to distinctly heavy or vice versa then it's of less, if any, significance.

This is, more or less, what I had figured. That's why you don't need to bother measuring workload during the intensity phase (3x3) after you finish the volume phase (5x5) of the Dual-Factor 5x5 routine.

 

[anotherbutters]

Just as G5.0 said - I was trying to keep the overall load in the same ballpark.

In the DF, you don't need to measure the workload because the person who set up the program did it for you Going from a flat 5x5 in week 4 to the same weight in a 3x3 the following week drops the load by almost 2/3.

 

[anotherbutters]

Week 14, Monday

Bodyweight: 80.5kg/177lb (target: 177lb)

To summarise the changes to my workouts, I'm switching to 3x3 on Monday's rows and 2x3 on deadlifts. Everything else remains the same.


1. Freeweight back squats (kg)
bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 ........... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
80 x 5
90 x 5 ........ should have been 92.5 but forgot
105 x 5 ....... up 2.5 ......... (231lb) ........ PR!

2. Bench (kg)
bar x 9 .......... warmup
30 x 9 ........... warmup
47.5 x 5
52.5 x 5
58.5 x 5
63.5 x 5
72.5 x 5 ......... up 1.5 ......... (160lb) ........ PR!

3. Row (kg) (switched to 3x3)
30 x 9 .......... warmup
40 x 3
50 x 3
57.5 x 3 ...... (current 5RM = 60/61)
57.5 x 3
57.5 x 3
50 x 8

4. Abs - planks
20 secs per side (right, front, left), total 2 min 54 secs


Comments

Squats - ooh, these were hard! I was stalling half way up on the top set and only just got the PR. I lent forward a bit and had to do a bit of a GM to finish it. Is that a natural reaction to recruit other muscles because I didn't intend it? I might add 2.5kg on Friday for the triple and if it's hard, drop back to 1kg on Monday just to keep the increases coming.

Bench - I found out today just how much air I can expell in one go. These were closer than close. The third rep on the final set wasn't going up, but I managed it and pulled two more reps out of the bag. Tada!

Rows - I switched to 3x3 today. Nothing much to report. I stood up a little bit, but it wasn't much. I'll increase this weight independently of Friday's workout, which I'll be keeping in the same format but dropping the weight back to 60kg.

Abs - planks again. Managed them for a bit longer today. They're a bit boring More of an exercise in endurance than strength. I intended doing a few more of them, but again, the thought of finishing the workout was much more appealing. Maybe I should do some crunches first and finish with planks.

 

[blut wump]

It looks like you're pushing your limits on everything now.

The bench workout sounds like it was a toughy. Congrats.

I forgot to mention how boring planks are. I always throw in a front between each side. Not that I've done them in a while, they're so boring and I'm often just not in the mood for long holds.

 

[anotherbutters]

I'm a bit disappointed with the squats. I thought I'd get a lot more mileage out of them. I feel like I've only just started.

The bench felt like a decline press as I was pushing it so far down my body (elbows in). Today was a 1.5kg increase and next is a 1kg, so I'm hoping to get that one in before I stall again.

I could do with improvising some plates so that I can go up 1kg every week instead of having to alternate between 1kg and 1.5kg.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Planks might be a bit boring, but they give a whole lot back from a simple 30-60 seconds for a set or two. I wouldn't be so quick to discredit them.

Abs don't need to be trained with heavy weights. Crunches with weights can be harmful if you curl your torso while doing them. If you decide on weighted crunches, flex only at the waist, keeping the back straight. This makes less weights a whole lot more difficult, as well.

I'd stick with planks and side planks until you can hold them all for 45-60 seconds for two sets. Nothing magic here, just figures that are acceptable for these exercises. After this, you can rotate in other ab movements. Crunches on a swiss ball, possibly some unweighted leg raises (not a huge fan, but you can if you want) and that's it. Your abs should be strong enough from compound lifts.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I've never done planks for long isometric holds, I should try this. I usually do them for reps with 2-3 second hold, for about 12. And then to make it harder do a little hip extension

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

They're really made to be an isometric exercise. Try holding them for a longer duration.

 

[blut wump]

Minutes at a time, eventually.