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Am I doing the 5x5 wrong?

ellinghad

ellinghad

New member
Hey guys! I have been on the single factor 5x5 program (Or whichever one new weightlifters use), and my program thusfar is this:

Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Bent-Over Rows – 5 sets of 5
2 sets of weighted hypers
4 sets of weighted Sit-ups

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Deadlift – 5 sets of 5
3 sets of Sit-ups

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bent-Over Rows – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple
Weighted Dips – 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps and Biceps – 3 sets of 8 each

This is almost exactly the same as is suggested (except olympic lifting isn't allowed on campus) in the workout template.

The problem I am having is that I am not feeling sore like I used to. I remember the days I would work out and feel sore for a few days as my body recovered. It was letting me know that it was weaker now, but going to grow back stronger! I don't even feel sore anymore in the arms and chest when I do this. I don't want to say it's too easy, but my arms and chest don't feel completely worked out.

I have started taking whey protein so I'm sure that that's causing my body to be a little less sore, but I kind of enjoyed the soreness because it let me know I did a good job. I still feel sore in the legs because I am not used to doing so many squats, but my arms and chest don't feel sore at all. I feel like I'm not growing if I don't feel sore. Do you think I should add more exercises to this regimen? Maybe I am doing something wrong, if so, please correct me! Thanks!
 
It is said that soreness (DOMS) isn't the measure of a good workout, just a measure of the athletes conditioning to the stress. Training full body 3x per week gets you far more accustomed to the stress and thus you don't get sore. Soreness and results are not linked as far as I can tell - I made good gains on the SF 5x5 without getting sore at all after the first few days!
 
Yeh, soreness isn't something that indicates a good workout. The indicator you're looking for is that you're able to lift slightly heavier weights from week to week.

I've been doing the SF for about 12 weeks now, setting PRs every week, and I can't remember the last time I was sore. Well, apart from when I started doing direct ab work last week.
 
So as I train more and more I will become less and less sore anytime I work out? So not being sore is merely a sign of superior conditioning?

It wouldn't hurt to add a few exercises to this regimen (like seated rows and wide grip pullups) would it?
 
Im on my 2nd 5x5 term, and just from experience ive noticed that while i AM tired after workouts im not sore either. Soreness is the lactic acid build up in your muscles, and it doesnt correspond to gains just like Hunter said. Before you go and add more exercises, make sure you have pushed your muscles to their limits with the exercises suggested. I keep increasing weight each week and im rarely, if ever, sore.
 
Don't mess with the program- not yet anyway.

I'll just add one more vote to the "soreness is not an indicator of progress" camp. It's a measure of conditioning.

I set many a PR in the Dual Factor 5x5 with mihimal soreness. Soreness can be expected when starting something new but should dissipate as your body becomes conditioned to the stresses applied.

Think about it this way- would you consider it a good program if you were sore all the time but didn't grow or get stronger? Of course not. As long as strength/size improves, the other "sides" are of no consequence.
 
Don't touch this program! Working a muscle group 3 times a week is already taxing enough on your body. If you worked until you were sore on every workout, you'd definintely be overtraining, imo anyways. Stick with how it is now and slowly add weight. There are tons of people here that have made huge gains without changing a thing.. stick with it and feed your body enough calories and you will see in a few weeks, trust me.
 
ellinghad said:
It wouldn't hurt to add a few exercises to this regimen (like seated rows and wide grip pullups) would it?
Click to expand...

I just noticed you're doing flat bench press on Wednesday. I assume it's flat anyway. The program calls for incline bench on Wednesdays as you're already flat benching on Monday and Fridays. Military press is an ok substitute for this anyway, which is what I do. I also throw in wide grip pullups on Wednesdays, which I think are part of the dual factor but not mentioned in the single factor.

I do this:

Mon: Squat, bench, bent over row: 5 sets of 5 each

Wed: light squats, deadlift, military press, pullups, 5 sets of 5 each

Fri: squat, bench, bent over row: 4 sets of 5 each, a triple, a backoff for 8 reps

All sets are done ramping up the weight, not the same weight for 5 sets. Apart from pullups, where I just use bodyweight.

I've started throwing in some ab work, but I don't bother with anything else. The above is the core of the workout. Don't add any seated rows - you're already doing bent over rows, which are more effective.
 
I'll just throw in that the military press should be done standing and to the front. Push press is a good alternative to military.
 
So incline is like halfway between a military press and a flat bench? What % should I decrease the weight on that day?
 
Yes, half way in between. It's mechanically harder to push above you than in front of you, which is why you'll end up lifting less.

I'd be inclined (excuse the pun :)) to do military press instead though. As it says elsewhere, "Supporting weight overhead is a fundemental exercise and stimulates the whole body." With an incline bench, you're not using your legs or your core as much as you're body is supported. And as BW says, do them standing and in front of you. I quite like them - they've become one of my favourite exercises!
 
Triple just means three reps. A backoff set is where you use a lighter weight so you can do a few more reps to get a bit of volume in and encourage some hypertrophy. As an example, my Friday squats were like this (in kg):

bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5
87.5 x 5
100 x 3 .......... triple
77.5 x 8 ......... backoff set with same weight as 3rd set

Note the backoff isn't a drop set, i.e. you take a normal break for a minute or two in between the sets. With a drop set, you'd go straight from the triple to the lower weight without a rest.
 
anotherbutters said:
Yes, half way in between. It's mechanically harder to push above you than in front of you, which is why you'll end up lifting less.

I'd be inclined (excuse the pun :)) to do military press instead though. As it says elsewhere, "Supporting weight overhead is a fundemental exercise and stimulates the whole body." With an incline bench, you're not using your legs or your core as much as you're body is supported. And as BW says, do them standing and in front of you. I quite like them - they've become one of my favourite exercises!
Click to expand...
I def. think you should do standing military over incline as well.
 
Thanks.
anotherbutters said:
Triple just means three reps. A backoff set is where you use a lighter weight so you can do a few more reps to get a bit of volume in and encourage some hypertrophy. As an example, my Friday squats were like this (in kg):

bar x 18 ........ warmup
40 x 9 .......... warmup
60 x 5
70 x 5
77.5 x 5
87.5 x 5
100 x 3 .......... triple
77.5 x 8 ......... backoff set with same weight as 3rd set

Note the backoff isn't a drop set, i.e. you take a normal break for a minute or two in between the sets. With a drop set, you'd go straight from the triple to the lower weight without a rest.
Click to expand...
 
Alright I'll try them... can you do them with the straight bar? Our gym is REALLY small (only 2 bench/barbell things) so I feel bad for using the barbell for Squats/deads/barbell rows/bench. Maybe I can do the barbell rows with the straight bar too?
 
ellinghad said:
Hey guys! I have been on the single factor 5x5 program (Or whichever one new weightlifters use), and my program thusfar is this:

Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Bent-Over Rows – 5 sets of 5
2 sets of weighted hypers
4 sets of weighted Sit-ups

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Deadlift – 5 sets of 5
3 sets of Sit-ups

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bent-Over Rows – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple
Weighted Dips – 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps and Biceps – 3 sets of 8 each

This is almost exactly the same as is suggested (except olympic lifting isn't allowed on campus) in the workout template.

The problem I am having is that I am not feeling sore like I used to. I remember the days I would work out and feel sore for a few days as my body recovered. It was letting me know that it was weaker now, but going to grow back stronger! I don't even feel sore anymore in the arms and chest when I do this. I don't want to say it's too easy, but my arms and chest don't feel completely worked out.

I have started taking whey protein so I'm sure that that's causing my body to be a little less sore, but I kind of enjoyed the soreness because it let me know I did a good job. I still feel sore in the legs because I am not used to doing so many squats, but my arms and chest don't feel sore at all. I feel like I'm not growing if I don't feel sore. Do you think I should add more exercises to this regimen? Maybe I am doing something wrong, if so, please correct me! Thanks!
Click to expand...

i know you guys say that soreness isnt related to whether or not you have done in your words "a good job". A good indication is as you say being able to lift heavier weights but you dont just walk in and go from 50kgs on bench to 100kgs. so it is a long process and one that is harder to judge if you dont record how many reps of what weight and how many times you lifted it, how long it took you to complete your sets etc. if you are using proper form and lifting HEAVY you are ripping your muscles HARDCORE, i am not a doctor but i know you shouldnt be able to rip the f*#k out of your muscles and wake up "fine and dandy" no matter how good your diet is.

If you dont have a spotter, GET 1!!! very hard and almost impossible on some exericises to lift heavy weights by yourself. Using heavy weights puts your muscles under alot more stress than using light weights for many reps. Make sure you are are doing the full excercise for eg. on bench make sure the bar almost touches your chest.....

looking at your training routine it looks a lil odd, i have read 3 diff weight training manuals from pete sisco, anthony ellis and bill myers and have tried the majority of it and worked out what worked best for me.

Personally i will be sore from a evenings workout for approx 4 days and am making nice gains.... so if i do squats on a monday theres no way i will be doing it again till the earliest of sat. if i did squats again on wed i might as well have not gone to gym on monday. soreness is a good indication that the muscle has not fully recoverd.

unless your muscles have FULLY recovered whats the point in training that muscle again. your muscle will be weak, so how can you ever expect to lift more and tear some "fresh" muscle up in order to build more.

"rest is essential, other than eating this should be your main focus - anthony ellis".

my prog basically looks like this
mon - chest, shoulders, tri's
wed - legs
fri - back and bi's

thats what i thought was odd in your program that you had 2 days recovery time. i used to train with a 2 day recovery time when i first started and made some gains but they stopped pretty quick as the heavier you start lifting, the more stress you put your body under = more recovery time.

HOPE I DIDNT BORE YOU GUYS TO DEATH! :chomp:
 
I understand what you're saying, but this seems to be a very popular workout and seems to have benefitted many people on this forum. Here is the link I got this workout plan from: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

The Bill Starr Power Routine

When I was a freshman in college, Bill Starr gave me this routine to follow. It was designed for off-season football and general strength training. In the first 16 weeks I was on it, I added about 35 pounds of bodyweight, and took my total from a paltry 600 to over 950. Of course, I was also on the dorm’s prepaid meal plan, and ate like it was going out of style. Plus, I only had four classes that semester, so I spent lots of time sleeping.


Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Powercleans – 5 sets of 5
2 sets of weighted hypers
4 sets of weighted Sit-ups

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Incline Bench – 4 sets of 5
High Pulls – 4 sets of 5
Sit-ups – 3 sets

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Powercleans – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple
Weighted Dips – 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps and Biceps – 3 sets of 8 each

I changed it because we aren't allowed to do olympic lifts on campus, and went from 4x5 on wednesday to 5x5, (but I think i'll change it back to 4x5) but other than that it is what was recommended for me. I have found the perfect pyramid progression already for bench (warmup with 135lbs, then 165, 175, 185, 195, 205) which pushes me to my last ounces of strength. The others will hopefully fall into place too as I get better form.

So is this routine a bad one? Because I thought this is what alot of people suggested was a good routine for "beginners"?
 
I see Tallahassee, FL and given your comments about training on campus I gather you are at FSU training at Leech Center which has had a "no chaulk or olympic lifts" policy for ages. Fortunately, FSU has other facilities (and a new one) and doesn't impose those restrictions on their athletes.

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/strength/fsu-strength-facilities.html

I believe Tully gym is still open to the public and has several platforms for OL nowadays as it looks like the old equipment got sent here. The other way around this stuff is to introduce yourself to the strength coach there and express your interest in learning the lifts - maybe some 'social engineering' can open up one of those athlete only classes which you register for and will let you use their gym (not as much eye candy as Leech but wayyy better facility). I linked a picture of Roger Holler below, this is the new complex where they train the football players and athletes. The director of S&C I believe is still Jon Jost who replaced Dave Van Hallenger when he left. He spent 7 years at Nebraska so he should know his stuff and he certainly has a great facility.

EDIT - plus now that I look a lot of the coaches under him have USAW coaching certifications so probably a good route to poke around there after doing some research on the C&J and Snatch at www.usaweightlifting.org and through Google so at least you know what the lifts entail and don't come off as some whackjob. Ask them about training/programming to add muscle and you'll get a real answer.

Picture Here
fsu-weight-room-500x375.jpg


As far as the program goes I can only advise you to educate yourself - that way you can quickly pick out people who know what they are talking about and those that don't. As a rule most people on BBing sites and BBing sources in general mags or whatever are massively ignorant to scary proportions - this is pretty well known and accepted by just about everyone in the S&C field or research around the world and it's pretty obvious that BBing with "it's 90% diet" quote is more about using enough drugs to get results from bad training rather than improving training (it's also about promoting the "sport" and selling supplements). It's the people who suffer for it too. Go to my temporary table of contents here http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm and in the Training Theory section read the last topic's two links. After that, spend some time reading the 'essential' marked posts in training theory and whatever else you like. Probably a good book would be www.startingstrength.com and then when it's released Practical Periodization which will be a followup. Mark Rippetoe (author of Starting Strength) is known for his phenomenal success in adding muscle to beginners, 30-40lbs in 6 months is not out of the ordinary. His programs look much closer to this one (and much of his work is based around Starr's stuff) than any BBing program - interviews with him and Glenn Pendlay are also in the TOC. The program above that you listed is not really a 'beginners' program per se, it assumes a some significant training history. In the near future I'll put something there for beginners.
 
Last edited:
Lol, I'm sorry about the confusion. I lived in Tallahassee, but I go to college at the University of Florida! The only big gym we have is a 20-30 min bus drive there (and it's packed and full of people talking/trying to show off instead of actually lifting (oh wait, that's in every gym).

I would like some comments on whether it's ok to use the straight bar on barbell rows and standing military press though... i get guilty using the bench for too long when it's slightly crowded and there are only 2 benches...
 
ellinghad said:
I would like some comments on whether it's ok to use the straight bar on barbell rows and standing military press though... i get guilty using the bench for too long when it's slightly crowded and there are only 2 benches...
Click to expand...
As opposed to what? A round bar? I'm lost.
 
lol. The core lifts of squat, bench, deadlift, row and overhead press are all done with a straight bar, which is just as well because apart from my bench/squat rack, the only equipment I have is a bar and some plates.

...oh, and some straps, ... and chalk, ... a platform, ... music... ;)
 
Ahhhh! :idea:

If you were just going into the gym to do x number of reps with one of those each week, it wouldn't be a problem. But a fundamental part of this program is that you should attempt to increase the weight from week to week by a small amount, say 2-3%.

You won't be able to add 5lb per week every week to the lighter exercises like military press, so you're going to have to get hold of some micro plates if your gym doesn't have any. Say 1lb or even 0.5lb plates, so you can add 1lb per week to the lighter exercises.

Those bars you mentioned are fixed weight, so at some point you're going to have to use an oly bar. I recommend sticking with an oly bar and plates every week, even if you're attempting a weight that matches one of the 'straight bars'. None of the bars and plates have exactly the weight they say on them due to manufacturing tolerances (unless your gym has really expensive kit). Those tolerances might lead to a straight bar being a pound heavier or lighter than the apparently equivalent oly bar, which is going to mess up your progress if you're only trying to add a pound that week.

It's a shame you're gym is so small. But that's not you're fault, so I'd try not to feel guilty for doing what the gym was built for - working out.
 
Something I don't get (not trying to be rude)....

U of F is a HUGE school. THere are probably multiple weight rooms. Why not use a fully stocked one? When I was in school our rec was awful to lift in during peak hours, but get there before ~3pm or after 8pm and you'd have plenty of space and equipment. Why are you using a tiny gym?
 
I know, but I don't have a car, and the nice gym (Southwest rec center) is a 40+ min ride on the bus (which is unreliable). The gym I usually use is a 2 minute walk... i guess i'm just lazy =P. Not to make excuses or anything, but also I'm donig engineering so I'm taking tough courses (microeconomics, macroeconomics, calc, chem, intro to engineering :() so I don't have alot of free time.

it's almost a social scene at that gym too, people showing off too much instead of lifting.
 
ellinghad said:
I understand what you're saying, but this seems to be a very popular workout and seems to have benefitted many people on this forum. Here is the link I got this workout plan from: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

The Bill Starr Power Routine

When I was a freshman in college, Bill Starr gave me this routine to follow. It was designed for off-season football and general strength training. In the first 16 weeks I was on it, I added about 35 pounds of bodyweight, and took my total from a paltry 600 to over 950. Of course, I was also on the dorm’s prepaid meal plan, and ate like it was going out of style. Plus, I only had four classes that semester, so I spent lots of time sleeping.


Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Powercleans – 5 sets of 5
2 sets of weighted hypers
4 sets of weighted Sit-ups

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Incline Bench – 4 sets of 5
High Pulls – 4 sets of 5
Sit-ups – 3 sets

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Powercleans – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple
Weighted Dips – 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps and Biceps – 3 sets of 8 each

I changed it because we aren't allowed to do olympic lifts on campus, and went from 4x5 on wednesday to 5x5, (but I think i'll change it back to 4x5) but other than that it is what was recommended for me. I have found the perfect pyramid progression already for bench (warmup with 135lbs, then 165, 175, 185, 195, 205) which pushes me to my last ounces of strength. The others will hopefully fall into place too as I get better form.

So is this routine a bad one? Because I thought this is what alot of people suggested was a good routine for "beginners"?
Click to expand...

the biggest thing with body building in general is broken promises and lies. this program wil add ... or this supplement does this and that and will pack on.... its like the majority of personal trainers, they have a piece of paper that say im qualified and yet they probably couldnt lift half what you can.

you always read this sort of shit like what you wrote "I added about 35 pounds of bodyweight" go have a look in the anabolic steroids section and see how much some of the other boys are putting on. you will find alot of them are putting on roughly what these "natural?" body builders are and THERE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS. something wrong aye lol. how can someone naturally keep up with someone on the juice?

sure some of these guys say this guy has put on 35 pounds of muscle but they picked someone who has probably never trained in there life and can easily add a few kilos in a small amount of time.

if you would like me 2 email you a couple of diff programs send me a message with your email addy and you can hopefully make a more educated decision on what YOU think is best ;)
 
There are dozens of guys on here who can testify to the efficacy of this routine and its variants.

If you have good and interesting routines, please post them up. This forum is mostly about learning and sharing info.
 
anotherbutters said:
raze, your view is perfectly reasonable for someone who hasn't tried something like this before. That's a full body workout three times per week, only using the big compound movements, not going to failure and trying to add a small amount (2-3%) of weight each week.

Try it for a few weeks. You've nothing to lose and I think you'll be surprised. Here's a starting point:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
Click to expand...

when i hit a plateau ill be sure to give it a try!
 
razE said:
the biggest thing with body building in general is broken promises and lies. this program wil add ... or this supplement does this and that and will pack on.... its like the majority of personal trainers, they have a piece of paper that say im qualified and yet they probably couldnt lift half what you can.

you always read this sort of shit like what you wrote "I added about 35 pounds of bodyweight" go have a look in the anabolic steroids section and see how much some of the other boys are putting on. you will find alot of them are putting on roughly what these "natural?" body builders are and THERE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS. something wrong aye lol. how can someone naturally keep up with someone on the juice?

sure some of these guys say this guy has put on 35 pounds of muscle but they picked someone who has probably never trained in there life and can easily add a few kilos in a small amount of time.

if you would like me 2 email you a couple of diff programs send me a message with your email addy and you can hopefully make a more educated decision on what YOU think is best ;)
Click to expand...
Homey, pardon my curtness but this post pretty much defines irony.

You're calling out this program as a BS marketing claim when in fact it's probably the most reliable, time tested program for putting size/strength on intermediate lifters. A legend in the strength training world (Bill Starr) put this together. What are your credentials? Magazine subscriptions?

This is why newbs should read the forums a bit before they post.

razE, post up some routines. It should make for some fun discussion.
 
Amen to that. I'm one to attest to the fact that the 5x5 works (dual factor). I didn't put on huge gains of size because I only ate to gain during the last half of the routine. I've tried tons of routines and this one did the best for me.
start finish
Squats (atf) 185# 305#
Bent Rows 125# 195#
Bench press 230# 295#
Deads 200# 415#
Military press 105# 175#

It's a very good routine. After 2 weeks in to the program, I wasn't sore much at all. A bit on the legs after Monday, but not so that I can hardly walk. Soreness comes from not using the muscle in the way you are used to OR with the intensity. Try doing a bunch of different types of an exercise that you don't normally do. That body part will be sore from different movements, not cause of the intensity.
Please post some of your routines, I'd like to see them.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Homey, pardon my curtness but this post pretty much defines irony.

You're calling out this program as a BS marketing claim when in fact it's probably the most reliable, time tested program for putting size/strength on intermediate lifters. A legend in the strength training world (Bill Starr) put this together. What are your credentials? Magazine subscriptions?

This is why newbs should read the forums a bit before they post.

razE, post up some routines. It should make for some fun discussion.
Click to expand...

if you could read again guinness,

the biggest thing with body building in general is broken promises and lies. this program wil add ... or this supplement does this and that and will pack on.... its like the majority of personal trainers, they have a piece of paper that say im qualified and yet they probably couldnt lift half what you can.

i said "the biggest thing with body building in GENERAL is broken promises and lies.". surely you cant be arguing that. Maybe you could tell us all how to put the weight on we want as fast as other steroids users?

Oh yea when did i make any comment on this program saying anything along these lines. "You're calling out this program as a BS marketing claim" ? :chomp:

i dont think this was as you put it "This is why newbs should read the forums a bit before they post." i think it was a case of someone asuming to much or just "speed reading". :)
 
There is some history to the 5x5 and this board.

It's been popularized here due to overwhelming support that it works. It's almost the antithesis of the hype one reads in mags, supp ads, etc. Your post sounds as though you are referring to this program as another "brick in the wall" (sorry for the melodramatic reference) in terms of bogus claims. You imply that you know another routine that's better/comparable. While I'm not so shortsighted as to say that would be impossible, I would suspect it rather unlikely. If I read it wrong then I'm sorry, but that's what it looks like to me.

Your numerous AAS references show that you haven't read much on the 5x5 (not here anyway) b/c the guy who we credit for popularizing this program has made it clear that part of his motivation in doing so was the startling number of people who plateau due to shitty programs and minimal solid training info and subsequently use AAS. So your anti-steroid comments are preaching to the choir.

That's why newbs should read- you need a frame of reference for where the board in general is at.

And me and steroids? I haven't poked since feb. Since that time I've actually improved (or at minimum equalled) my "assisted" strength simply by learning and applying the stuff I've learned. Here's a journal of how my first 5x5 went (it's different than the one Ellinghad is using- I'd be happy to explain the diff. or link the articles that explain dual-factor theory if you're not already familiar with it):

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754

This post is the cliff ntoes version I guess :):

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071295&postcount=90
 
Guinness5.0 said:
There is some history to the 5x5 and this board.

It's been popularized here due to overwhelming support that it works. It's almost the antithesis of the hype one reads in mags, supp ads, etc. Your post sounds as though you are referring to this program as another "brick in the wall" (sorry for the melodramatic reference) in terms of bogus claims. You imply that you know another routine that's better/comparable. While I'm not so shortsighted as to say that would be impossible, I would suspect it rather unlikely. If I read it wrong then I'm sorry, but that's what it looks like to me.

Your numerous AAS references show that you haven't read much on the 5x5 (not here anyway) b/c the guy who we credit for popularizing this program has made it clear that part of his motivation in doing so was the startling number of people who plateau due to shitty programs and minimal solid training info and subsequently use AAS. So your anti-steroid comments are preaching to the choir.

That's why newbs should read- you need a frame of reference for where the board in general is at.

And me and steroids? I haven't poked since feb. Since that time I've actually improved (or at minimum equalled) my "assisted" strength simply by learning and applying the stuff I've learned. Here's a journal of how my first 5x5 went (it's different than the one Ellinghad is using- I'd be happy to explain the diff. or link the articles that explain dual-factor theory if you're not already familiar with it):

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754

This post is the cliff ntoes version I guess :):

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071295&postcount=90
Click to expand...

Not a drama :). Just to make sure we are on the same level on the 5x5 program, i have nothing against the program as i havnt never tried it yet. i sent ellinghad some other interesting articles/programs so he could see some other points of view. at the end of the day you put into practice what you read and see what works best for you!

i poke in 3 or so weeks (1st time ^_^!) looking forward to it! :evil:

if your still looking for a digital camera Guinness try ebay! they got some nicely priced camera's
 
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