all you americans

[ziggyziggy]

theres an israeli element, sure

OK, so I see you are one of the "The US always does Isreal's bidding" loonies. That answers a lot of questions.

Zig

 

[GoldenDelicious]

OK, so I see you are one of the "The US always does Isreal's bidding" loonies. That answers a lot of questions.

Zig

your misperception is your business.

the US does not do israels "bidding", but the US does factor israel into whatever they do in the middle east

 

[GoldenDelicious]

We shouldnt go into this one because only Bush and God know whether or not the administration believe there were WMDs. You are so set in your mindset that our entire admin created one big lie...of which there is no proof. Others would say it was faulty intel...of which there is no proof. I know youre a big fan of using heresay and conjecture in your arguments, but its a big ol' waste of time.

well i think that we should go into it (even though the depleted uranium issue is completely fubar, because no one wanted to step in and say what theyre all thinking, that using DI is great for saving american lives, and really, thats the most important thing)

my position on the war is simple - when you are the united states government, representative of 200 million people, with arguably the most powerful and well funded military in the world, an educated and sophisticated population, you should be a hell of a lot more accountable/transparent than the administration has been.

if you cant provide enough evidence to go to war in the first place, then taht in itself is enough "proof" that you dont need to bloody well go. and thats the long and short of the fucking thing.

Just because you never heard of them doesnt mean they werent there. To believe so is irresponsible. If you read I believe Monday's New York Times (of course, they didnt bother to put it on the front page) there was a collection of writings from captured al-Qaeda operatives from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq. Throughout all the writings there was one common theme: how much of a shitty situation they are in compared to before 9/11. They found it 10x more difficult to find recruits, housing, or even sympathetic citizens throughout the countries mentioned above.

lets not overlook the simple fact that before the war, i had never heard of these people. now, after the war, i have

hell, here in australia we have muslim clerics refusing to call osama bin laden a bad man, because of the USs post 911 actions, which have affirmed what he has said about the US.

use a bit of common sense, for goodness sake. the london terrorists were "home grown", and supposedly spontaneously decided to martyr themselves because of what the US and britain are doing. do you really think that the inflammation wrought by the war is limited to those few people, and not pervading the entire world? come on!

One of the folks even wrote at length about how whenever he would travel to Pakistan (where he was eventually caught) people who knew who he was affiliated with would laugh at him while he walked down the street.

one guy is interviewed for a newspaper, another bunch of guys strap suicide belts on and kill themselves in the middle of a bunch of people. take a guess which of those i find to be more convincing.

I know how much you would like it to be the opposite, but the world has gotten progressively safer in the months following 9/11.

lol wear a T-shirt proclaiming that while you ride the tube in london, or go for a walk through baghdad wearing a cross and a tshirt with an american flag on it

Terrorism doesnt target troops. Its right there in the definition.

i find this a rather interesting statement, given that the US has declared war on "terror"

So yes, I mean that there has been only 1 attack against US interests both at home and abroad.

oh please, what a load of crap. your sophistry in this instance is sickening. it isnt a terrorist attack unless its against civilians? well alright then. iraq is pretty much a US vassal state now, is it not? (ally? LOL) well then, we should consider normal everyday iraqis to be the equal of any yank or brit walking down the street, or in some way, to be "american interests", yes? and you are fond of saying that many of them are being killed by the "insurgency", yes?

well then, we should suppose that those are terrorist attacks then, and we're getting what, one a day in the form of car bombs alone?

seems to me that your twisted logic just fell flat on its face.

The truth of what?

I never said it did warrant a full scale invasion. You said it wasnt true. I pointed out that it indeed was. Just another point against you.

and yet, here we are.

If you dont think the UN destroyed its own credibility on its own then this is going to be a long debate.

i think that the US being hellbent on war, riding roughshod on the UN verily shoved it over the edge, and certainly made it less useful as an organisation, which is tragic to many peoples who may have been helped by it.

Make up your mind. Is it an American agenda or an Israeli agenda?

only a fool would not concede that the israelis have considerable political and econimic clout in the US, as evidenced by many things, from the military "aid" given israel by the US, to US double standards as to nuclear capability in israel versus iran, to the disproportionate pressure (or lack thereof) applied to israel over its illegal occupations as compared to other regimes

Ive always wondered if anyone can actually explain what halliburton did, and why it is wrong. Im beginning to think its just a typical knee-jerk reaction when one has no argument.

i like the way you sidestep the real point of that paragraph and instead focus on the tiniest bit of symbolism that i used to round out the image

...but if you want to talk about halliburton, well, apart from being viewed in a negative light because of peoples natural distate for people/companies that profit from death, the important issues are the conflict of interest perceived by many, who think it innappropriate that the people involved in deciding to go to war were in some way connected to the very companies that would profit from it. then there is the issue of the contracts being given to halliburton et al without a normal tendering process (which of course, sets the scene for some serious rorting) and furthermore, the fact taht they overcharged the military to the tune of hundreds of millions for services never provided, or provided below standards, and to add weight to the conflict of interest perceived by the public, they were not punished.

We didnt.

you didnt what? drop big bombs in the middle fo crowded places? like the bunker buster dropped someplace where saddam and his sons were supposedly hiding, that i remember seeing a picture of? or the wedding that was bombed into oblivion? or are you trying to catch me out on a technicality and assert taht none fo teh big nasty ordinance was drpped on families during "shock and awe" itself, despite the fact that during that time, the crippling of basic services to the civilian population is directly attributable to the increase in death due to disease etc etc?

Thats where we disagree. Also, Im sure you dont lose any sleep over the plight of a few Iraqis civlians who have unfortunately been caught up in this at the fault of their comrades who choose to use them as human shields.

i think youre missing the point. the US instigated the war. there would be no need for human shields if the US wasnt there in the first place. and furthermore, id say the proportion of human shields is far lower than, say, next door nighbours etc etc.

i dont see that you have a point at all

I figured you did. Even though the entire US didnt.

i wouldnt say that whole US.

Never in the history of the world have you achieved such a thing.

never in the history of the world have you perceived it, you mean.

Your blindedness is an even bigger problem.

our not seeing htings eye to eye doesnt mean im blind, 75th.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

GD,

You just want grind an ax. This is evident when you switch topics from the US to the UK bombers to Australian clerics as it suits the ideology to which you currently subscribe. And you're a smart enough guy that people actually respond to it, thinking that a series of complete sentences = a cohesive argument.

Your ax-grinding probably derives from observng the world around you and your relative powerlessness to influence it. This is frustrating, so rather than attempt to undersand or get involved in any meaningful way, you decry those who are making changes. This becomes clear when you fail to offer any alternatives, nor do you bother to place the issues in any context other than which maximizes your ability to grind your ax.

This is well-understood, and prevalent in the states too. Most of the anti government stuff is not legitimate criticism, but expressions of powerlessness. The US's two party system is, sadly, an outgrowth of this: If you're not the party in power, you find/invent any reason to identify with the opposition.

The Internet has taken this anti-leader effect global. Your posts are not substantial, but are just a correctly punctuated cry for attention that you don't get from the ruling class back home. Find something constructive to do with yourself.

 

[redguru]

Sorry I missed this thread, was up visiting my parents in PA for three weeks. You do know that Depleted Uranium was used as a munition in the first Iraq war, correct? You also do know that a lot of data has been compiled in peer-reviewed medical and scientific journals relating to that use?

You also do know that not one of these peer-reviewed journal articles can link DU to any illness? Also that, even soldiers with embedded DU shrapnel since 1991 have shown no ill effects due to radiation sickness or kidney problems from uranium exposure or other heavy metal exposure?

Another strawman or red herring propped up by the environmental left to decry US tactics in the war on terror.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

GD,

You just want grind an ax. This is evident when you switch topics from the US to the UK bombers to Australian clerics as it suits the ideology to which you currently subscribe. And you're a smart enough guy that people actually respond to it, thinking that a series of complete sentences = a cohesive argument.

Your ax-grinding probably derives from observng the world around you and your relative powerlessness to influence it. This is frustrating, so rather than attempt to undersand or get involved in any meaningful way, you decry those who are making changes. This becomes clear when you fail to offer any alternatives, nor do you bother to place the issues in any context other than which maximizes your ability to grind your ax.

This is well-understood, and prevalent in the states too. Most of the anti government stuff is not legitimate criticism, but expressions of powerlessness. The US's two party system is, sadly, an outgrowth of this: If you're not the party in power, you find/invent any reason to identify with the opposition.

The Internet has taken this anti-leader effect global. Your posts are not substantial, but are just a correctly punctuated cry for attention that you don't get from the ruling class back home. Find something constructive to do with yourself.

matt, if you tapped all that out just to say that i like to stir shit, you should have just asked me, and i would have cackled and agreed with you

also, im not at all frustrated with the "ruling class" back home, because really i dont give a shit. if the ruling class concerned me, i would simply do what i had to do to join it.

as for being constructive, im in downtime. i refuse to do anything constructive during downtime . when you notice that im not around much, youll know ive switched gears

by the way, when you were stealing all those toiletries, did you notice any trends? did the prettier girls have the cheaper brands, or was it the otehr way round

 

[75th]

well i think that we should go into it (even though the depleted uranium issue is completely fubar, because no one wanted to step in and say what theyre all thinking, that using DI is great for saving american lives, and really, thats the most important thing)

Yes, in my mind it is the most important thing.

Im sure that in your mind, saving the life of an Aussie is more important than saving the life of an Iraqi.

lets not overlook the simple fact that before the war, i had never heard of these people. now, after the war, i have

Just because youre not well read is not my problem.

hell, here in australia we have muslim clerics refusing to call osama bin laden a bad man, because of the USs post 911 actions, which have affirmed what he has said about the US.

I dont think any sane person cares what some radical muslim cleric thinks. If we retaliated after 9/11, its because we are a zionist, imperialistic nation hell-bent on destroying Islam. If we didnt retaliate, its because Allah saw fit to protect the Muslim world, so feel free to suicide bomb whoever you want.

That logic doesnt sit well with me.

use a bit of common sense, for goodness sake. the london terrorists were "home grown", and supposedly spontaneously decided to martyr themselves because of what the US and britain are doing. do you really think that the inflammation wrought by the war is limited to those few people, and not pervading the entire world? come on!

You dont "spontaneously" decide to gang up with 5 other folks and blow yourselves up. Besides, it was the fake bombers who made some off the hand remark about the Iraq war. The bombers who ended up taking innocent lives made no statement at all.

one guy is interviewed for a newspaper, another bunch of guys strap suicide belts on and kill themselves in the middle of a bunch of people. take a guess which of those i find to be more convincing.

He was interviewed, he kept the writings in his private journal. Its shortsighted to only look at one of the two subjects. The writings of this person in particular, combined with the confessions and writings of other captured al-Qaeda operatives, gives insight into how their now decimated organization is doing.

lol wear a T-shirt proclaiming that while you ride the tube in london, or go for a walk through baghdad wearing a cross and a tshirt with an american flag on it

Believe it or not, I would rather walk in downtown Baghdad now compared to four years ago. And whether or not you want to admit it, you would too.

i find this a rather interesting statement, given that the US has declared war on "terror"

Is this supposed to be an argument? Im not sure how you cant understand that terrorism, by definition, is focused on civilian targets. The fact that we have decided to step up our actions against terrorist actions doesnt change that.

oh please, what a load of crap. your sophistry in this instance is sickening. it isnt a terrorist attack unless its against civilians? well alright then. iraq is pretty much a US vassal state now, is it not? (ally? LOL) well then, we should consider normal everyday iraqis to be the equal of any yank or brit walking down the street, or in some way, to be "american interests", yes? and you are fond of saying that many of them are being killed by the "insurgency", yes?

I dont use the word "insurgency." Its a combination of standard resistance by unhappy Iraqis (obviously a minority) and other anti-American/Israeli/Western elements from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

only a fool would not concede that the israelis have considerable political and econimic clout in the US, as evidenced by many things, from the military "aid" given israel by the US, to US double standards as to nuclear capability in israel versus iran, to the disproportionate pressure (or lack thereof) applied to israel over its illegal occupations as compared to other regimes

They do indeed, Ive never said anything to the contrary.

Eh, I dont understand how this got from DU weapons to what it is now. You argue in circles, man.

Why dont you and I agree to disagree...that is, until your next hot-air filled thread.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

matt, if you tapped all that out just to say that i like to stir shit, you should have just asked me, and i would have cackled and agreed with you

also, im not at all frustrated with the "ruling class" back home, because really i dont give a shit. if the ruling class concerned me, i would simply do what i had to do to join it.

as for being constructive, im in downtime. i refuse to do anything constructive during downtime . when you notice that im not around much, youll know ive switched gears

by the way, when you were stealing all those toiletries, did you notice any trends? did the prettier girls have the cheaper brands, or was it the otehr way round

You do seem somewhat caught up with the American ruling class. But if you're just here to start shit, let's turn our attention elsewhere.

When you say tolietries, you create a negative image. I prefer "skin and hair care products".

Looks had nothing to do with it, economics was the driving factor. Women, like men, buy what they can afford.

A friend of mine who is from a prominent NY real estate family has a separate bathroom just for all of her skin and hair care products. Whenever I stay over there I make sure to use them all, shampoo, conditioner, exfoliate, etc. By comparison, college girls lacking money had just the basics: shampoo, conditioner, Clinique and maybe some other stuff.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Yes, in my mind it is the most important thing.

so youre saying that protecting american soldiers is the most important thing, even in an unneccessary, illegul, unjustifiable war, where american servicemembers' presence alone is instigating the very retaliation that puts them in harms way, even when the price of protecting said illegal incursion is the commital of a moral, and war crime in the form of dispersing hundreds of tonnes of a radioactive material taht will poison the people and land for centuries?

wow. how dare those iraqis breathe american air in iraq?

Im sure that in your mind, saving the life of an Aussie is more important than saving the life of an Iraqi.

the difference between you and i is that i would save the aussie soldiers life by keeping them at home, and not sending them off to fight an unneccessary war for a reason no one seems to be able to come up with.

Just because youre not well read is not my problem.

nice pun, even though the obvious design of my previous statement was to illustrate the increased significance of islamic extremism by correllating my exposure to it through main news media, with its prevalence/significance in the world.

i have noticed that you often chastise others for their supposed lack of debating skill (something i have never claimed to have), and yet here you are, trying to make a sad joke out of an effective point.

I dont think any sane person cares what some radical muslim cleric thinks. If we retaliated after 9/11, its because we are a zionist, imperialistic nation hell-bent on destroying Islam. If we didnt retaliate, its because Allah saw fit to protect the Muslim world, so feel free to suicide bomb whoever you want.

That logic doesnt sit well with me.

a sane, logical person would see that the previously moderate, right thinking cleric has become radicalised, and ask themselves "why has this happened. what are the factors and influences that have instigated the change?" and through a logic examination of the issue at hand, will hopefully come to some sort of understanding of the root cause of the change.

i think that looking at domestic muslims is an excellent way to monitor the undercurrents coursing throughout the entire muslim world. thats not too hard to understand, is it? hm?

and further, who are you to say "If we didnt retaliate, its because Allah saw fit to protect the Muslim world, so feel free to suicide bomb whoever you want." are you an expert in middle eastern culture? what makes you think you understand these people well enough to make a statement like that? good thing youre not presumptuous!

You dont "spontaneously" decide to gang up with 5 other folks and blow yourselves up.

exactly. so then, for your next mental exercise, have a think about why they might feel compelled to end their lives.

He was interviewed, he kept the writings in his private journal. Its shortsighted to only look at one of the two subjects. The writings of this person in particular, combined with the confessions and writings of other captured al-Qaeda operatives, gives insight into how their now decimated organization is doing.

really? and who filtered this information? were tehy without ulterior motive?

and besides, a journal from some captured guy who was willing to confess, versus the steady flow of people scattering their intestines all over the place in fiery explosion on a near daily basis isnt terribly persuasive, when we are talking about motivation

Believe it or not, I would rather walk in downtown Baghdad now compared to four years ago. And whether or not you want to admit it, you would too.

bullshit, i wouldnt set foot in that country if you paid me.

a few years ago i might have, why not? its not like people were going to kidnap me for ransom, or chop my head off in a snuff film to piss off john howard.

if youre willing to walk down a baghdad street at the moment wearing an american flag, you have a death wish

Is this supposed to be an argument? Im not sure how you cant understand that terrorism, by definition, is focused on civilian targets. The fact that we have decided to step up our actions against terrorist actions doesnt change that.

it isnt an argument in itself - i was just pointing out how perverse it is to argue that the daily bombing in iraq against americans in iraq is not a 'terrorist' act, and despite the massively increased incidence of such attacks, you suggest that people are safer (sickening use of categorisation), based on a literal rather than reality based interpretation of the data, when the incidents are happening under the very banner of a 'war on terror', which is itself undermined by the same arguments you are making to somehow discredit what i said earlier

its so absurd as to be laughable

I dont use the word "insurgency." Its a combination of standard resistance by unhappy Iraqis (obviously a minority)

excuse me? a minority? military estimates put the number at about 40 000. other estimates are 400 000. youre trying to say taht there are 40 000 - 400 000 iforeigners waging war in iraq, while a 'minority' of iraqis participates? ho-ly shit.

youre trying to say, to me, right now, that in a vendetta striken place like the middle east, where if you kill someone, their whole family will come running after you with an AK47, where you have invaded for no reason, and killed tens of thousands of civilians from the air, refuse to leave the country, been there for going on 2 years, bla bla bla, blablablabla, where practically everyone knows or is related to someone who has been killed or unjustly incarcerated, that youre going to have a 'minority' of 'unhappy' iraqis waging war against you?

75th are you mad?

They do indeed, Ive never said anything to the contrary.

well you wanted clarification. i clarified.

Eh, I dont understand how this got from DU weapons to what it is now. You argue in circles, man.

no, thats just me repeating myself

Why dont you and I agree to disagree...that is, until your next hot-air filled thread.

well if we agree to disagree, and you dont come into my thread, there wont be any hot air, will there

this post is dedicated to matthemoisturiserstealer

 

[GoldenDelicious]

You do seem somewhat caught up with the American ruling class. But if you're just here to start shit, let's turn our attention elsewhere.

When you say tolietries, you create a negative image. I prefer "skin and hair care products".

Looks had nothing to do with it, economics was the driving factor. Women, like men, buy what they can afford.

A friend of mine who is from a prominent NY real estate family has a separate bathroom just for all of her skin and hair care products. Whenever I stay over there I make sure to use them all, shampoo, conditioner, exfoliate, etc. By comparison, college girls lacking money had just the basics: shampoo, conditioner, Clinique and maybe some other stuff.

eh the yanks are the movers and the shakers at the moment. they generate lots of talking points

i humbly apologise for using the word 'toiletries' and perhaps giving my fellow EFers the image of you running out of the house with 4 rolls of toilet paper in your jocks its hardly the image youd like to put forth these days

oh and your friend totally has the right idea. if i werent so naturally good looking and didnt find toiletr...ahem "skin and hair care products" to be a total waste of my time adn energy, with no return on investment, id think about dedicating a room to them too