ALA+Ephedrine: The next gneration stack.

[Fonz]

I came across something interesting the other day......

1: Br J Nutr 1999 Dec;82(6):497-503 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Involvement of lipoic acid in plasma metabolites, hepatic oxygen consumption, and metabolic response to a beta-agonist in broiler chickens.

Hamano Y, Sugawara S, Kamota Y, Nagai E.

Department of Animal Science, Akita Prefectural College of Agriculture, Ohgata, Japan. [email protected]

The present study was conducted to determine the role of alpha-lipoic acid (LA) in plasma metabolites, hepatic O2 consumption, and beta-adrenergic response in broilers.

Note: Beta-adrenergic response.(Ephedrine is a beta-agonist)

In Expt 1, 12-d-old female broiler chicks were divided into three dietary groups and fed on diets with or without LA (5 or 50 mg/kg) until 4 or 6 weeks of age, as a 2 x 3 factorial arrangement.

(50mg/Kg is roughly 5000mg for a 100Kg BB'er. Exactly
what some people are consuming).
(For 80Kg it would be 4000mg, and for 90Kg 4500mg)

The dietary LA had no effect on growth rates (body weight, abdominal fat, breast muscle, and liver). The higher level of LA increased plasma non-esterified fatty acid and decreased plasma triacylglycerol concentrations only at 6 weeks of age. A 42% increase in hepatic respiration was observed in the 4-week-old chickens given 50 mg LA/kg diet. In Expt 2, 3-d-old female broiler chicks were treated with or without dietary LA at 50 mg/kg. At 30 and 31 d old, isoproterenol (2 mg/kg body weight per h) was continuously infused into a wing vein for 2 h, and changes in plasma glucose, triacylglycerol, and non-esterified fatty acid concentrations were analysed.

Note: Isopretenol is a beta-agonist.

Isoproterenol increased plasma glucose over basal levels maximally at 60 min.

Note: Without ALA.

Now, with ALA:

Furthermore, the glucose increase in the LA-treated chickens was 35% greater than that of the controls at this time.

(<Damn!> ALA+the beta agonist increased BG levels by
35%. This is indicative of EXTRA glucose being flooded
into the blood-stream by the "enhanced" beta-agonist).

Plasma non-esterified fatty acid and triacylglycerol concentrations were decreased by the isoproterenol infusion, regardless of LA administration. Therefore, the present study suggests that dietary LA has repartitioning effects on energy metabolism in

(Repartitioning effects: As we all already knew).

chickens (although this depends on age-related metabolic state)

(Interesting: Macro when you read this, it seems that ALA
would be cery beneficial for older people in terms of body
composition improvements).

and is a possible facilitator in the beta-adrenergic response of plasma glucose to a beta-agonist.


I swear I still have not been able to poke any holes in ALA's
amazing effects. It does literally EVERYTHING, and SAFELY
to boot. You can't get better than that.

Its the UNIVERSAL supplement if you ask me.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

Fonz, I really like you and all (in a non-homosexual way) even though we may have our differences, but this hype has got to stop lol.

I only hype things that are remarkable. ALA is remarkable.

Fonz

 

[papapump25]

how do you suggest this stuff be taken, on and off cycle??? be as specific as you wanna be bro, thanks. L8

 

[Fonz]

how do you suggest this stuff be taken, on and off cycle??? be as specific as you wanna be bro, thanks. L8

On-cycle(bulking-semi-bulking): 50mg/Kg RACEMIC per day.

For R-ALA and ALA the dosage per meal still cannot be
revealed.(In time.)

Fonz

 

[papapump25]

what is 'RACEMIC'??? and why can't the other be revealed??? 'splain lucy . . .

 

[AAP]

Fonz, can you speak English. Is Ala and Ephe going to help cut fat or bulk?

 

[cbeaks]

On-cycle(bulking-semi-bulking): 50mg/Kg RACEMIC per day.

For R-ALA and ALA the dosage per meal still cannot be
revealed.(In time.)

Fonz

50mg/kg of racemic ALA per day would come out to 5grams for someone who ways 100 kilograms or 220 pounds. That is a ton of money to be spending on r-ala. - cbeaks

 

[bigrand]

I dont think ALA is THAT great......i think its a little overrated.....

 

[Fonz]

Fonz, can you speak English. Is Ala and Ephe going to help cut fat or bulk?

Shit. Typo.

It should be CUTTTING.

But cutting, not at say 10X Bodyweight but 15X bodyweight.

Fonz

 

[Lumberg]

"The dietary LA had no effect on growth rates (body weight, abdominal fat, breast muscle, and liver). The higher level of LA increased plasma non-esterified fatty acid and decreased plasma triacylglycerol concentrations only at 6 weeks of age. A 42% increase in hepatic respiration was observed in the 4-week-old chickens given 50 mg LA/kg diet. In Expt 2, 3-d-old female broiler chicks were treated with or without dietary LA at 50 mg/kg. At 30 and 31 d old, isoproterenol (2 mg/kg body weight per h) was continuously infused into a wing vein for 2 h, and changes in plasma glucose, triacylglycerol, and non-esterified fatty acid concentrations were analysed.

Note: Isopretenol is a beta-agonist.

Isoproterenol increased plasma glucose over basal levels maximally at 60 min.

Note: Without ALA.

Now, with ALA:

Furthermore, the glucose increase in the LA-treated chickens was 35% greater than that of the controls at this time.
"

Ok, it says that the glucose increase in the LA-treated chickens was higher. But which group? The 50mg/kg group or the 5mg/kg group? Or is it an average of the two groups?

Basically, how are you justifying the 50mg/kg dosage?

 

[AAP]

Ok Fonz, let us dumb this down as far as it will go.

So I am taking my Ripped Fuel and ALA....

When do I take it? How long before meals?

Should I take ALA along with my Ripped Fuel before going to the gym?

And what will happen? Fat loss?

 

[juggernaut7]

ala is the bomb@

ala is definately a kick ass supplement...i luv it@@!do some research on it in old posts.experiment with it yourself and ill bet ull love it too....and your liver will too hehehe@!peace

 

[chrisoh]

were not chickens, good post though

 

[Fat Bastard]

Probably a stupid ques. , or maybe I just misinterpreted something, but isn't ala supposed to help keep blood glucose levels down?

 

[Lumberg]

Probably a stupid ques. , or maybe I just misinterpreted something, but isn't ala supposed to help keep blood glucose levels down?

The study concerend ALA in conjunction with a beta agonist (ephedrine and caffeine are other examples of beta agonists). The raised glucose levels came from oxidation of fat due to the introduction of a beta agonist.

Basically what the study implies is that beta agonists + ALA = more fat burning that either B.A. or ALA alone.

JC

 

[Iean]

If you look at the steps immediately following glycolysis you will see that ALA is an essential intermediate along with 4 B vitamins to form Pyruvate Dehydrogenase complex. I am glad that someone actually studied this as it makes sense that increasing sympathetic tone (ephedrine) will raise the blood glucose levels while the ala will facilitate the shunting down through the Krebs cycle and oxidative phosphorylation.

 

[argent]

The study concerend ALA in conjunction with a beta agonist (ephedrine and caffeine are other examples of beta agonists). The raised glucose levels came from oxidation of fat due to the introduction of a beta agonist.

Basically what the study implies is that beta agonists + ALA = more fat burning that either B.A. or ALA alone.

JC

Good translation.

 

[SofaGeorge]

The study concerend ALA in conjunction with a beta agonist (ephedrine and caffeine are other examples of beta agonists). The raised glucose levels came from oxidation of fat due to the introduction of a beta agonist.

Basically what the study implies is that beta agonists + ALA = more fat burning that either B.A. or ALA alone.

JC

I've been running r-ALA/ALA with ECA and NYC. I'm definitely getting better results than I do with ECA alone.

Also, has anyone noticed an unusual strength/endurance surge on r-ALA/ALA? I'm stronger now than when I was on my recent fina cycle. My lifts should be going down... but they aren't... they are going up... and I just broke my 2 mile run time record by almost 1 minute. That is an INCREDIBLE amount of time to take off of 2 miles.

 

[CerealKiller]

Fonz>> What about clen+ALA or Clen+ketotifen+ALA ......do you have any info on these stacks?

 

[bigmofo]

ok so what i gather here from reading fonz' and sofa george' post is that by taking ALA,andECA that we can expect to have very fast and lean chickens?not to mention better chess playing chickens......i have been taking ala for about 4 months now and have not noticed anything exciting,i.e better pumps increased strength and so on i have yet to try r-ala which is getting alot of hype,i think i will wait until fonz post his results with r-ala before i give away more of my money.

 

[AAP]

Ok Fonz, let us dumb this down as far as it will go.

So I am taking my Ripped Fuel and ALA....

When do I take it? How long before meals?

Should I take ALA along with my Ripped Fuel before going to the gym?

And what will happen? Fat loss?

Answer this.

 

[Fonz]

Answer this.

Take 600mg ALA w/ the ripped fuel.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

"The dietary LA had no effect on growth rates (body weight, abdominal fat, breast muscle, and liver). The higher level of LA increased plasma non-esterified fatty acid and decreased plasma triacylglycerol concentrations only at 6 weeks of age. A 42% increase in hepatic respiration was observed in the 4-week-old chickens given 50 mg LA/kg diet. In Expt 2, 3-d-old female broiler chicks were treated with or without dietary LA at 50 mg/kg. At 30 and 31 d old, isoproterenol (2 mg/kg body weight per h) was continuously infused into a wing vein for 2 h, and changes in plasma glucose, triacylglycerol, and non-esterified fatty acid concentrations were analysed.

Note: Isopretenol is a beta-agonist.

Isoproterenol increased plasma glucose over basal levels maximally at 60 min.

Note: Without ALA.

Now, with ALA:

Furthermore, the glucose increase in the LA-treated chickens was 35% greater than that of the controls at this time.
"

Ok, it says that the glucose increase in the LA-treated chickens was higher. But which group? The 50mg/kg group or the 5mg/kg group? Or is it an average of the two groups?

Basically, how are you justifying the 50mg/kg dosage?

There is no 5mg/kg group, just a 50mg/Kg one.

Fonz

 

[Lumberg]

OK, OK

I saw the expt 1 where there were three groups. I did not realize that the experiment with the beta agaonist (expt 2) only involved one ALA group with the higher dosage.

JC

 

[Fener]

i think ala is very good stuff,just a big problem when cutting is hunger goes through the roof @ 3g/day.And also when i diet i stay preatty low with carbs and all that ala makes me sick, like my stomach is allways empty.Anyone else?

 

[gUiLe]

Take 600mg ALA w/ the ripped fuel.

Fonz

As most people take Ripped Fuel and/or an E/C/A stack on an
empty stomach (at least for morning cardio), how would you
incorporate ALA into the mix since ALA wrecks havoc on an
empty stomach???
g

 

[Nutri-Wrestler]

If it is that bad, then take the eca and ala and then eat some celery or a pickle.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Try this!

Take you ECA first thing in the morning, do your cardio, then when you go to eat your first meal than take your ALA. You probably could take your second and third ECA + ALA together followed by a meal!

Good Luck!

I take 500-1500mg ALA on an empty stomach with no problem.

I'm alternating now... one morning 200mg r-ALA/ECA/NYC + more coffee.

The next day 500mg ALA/ECA/NYC.

I seem to get the same benefit.

 

[takniteasy]

Sofa, is your girlfriend still taking the r-ALA and what kind of results/effects is she gietting?

Thanks!

 

[Machiavellian Muscle]

I think there are better ways to spend your money than on ala.

 

[Frackal]

Not for me mack.....I honestly notice a tremendous difference with either r-alal or regular ala in terms of muscle hardness, pumps, and to some extent vascularity. It is indispensable.

 

[AAP]

FONZ - I need more info. Taking ALA with Ripped Fuel (on an empty stomach) was a bad idea.

If I take my Ripped Fuel before my workout should I take my ALA before working out as well?

 

[Fonz]

FONZ - I need more info. Taking ALA with Ripped Fuel (on an empty stomach) was a bad idea.

If I take my Ripped Fuel before my workout should I take my ALA before working out as well?

AA, pop 6-7 sugare-free tums with the ALA. You won't
get any acid reflux.

Fonz

 

[SofaGeorge]

Sofa, is your girlfriend still taking the r-ALA and what kind of results/effects is she gietting?

Thanks!

Yes... she is taking 400-600mg a day... and eating mostly clean... but she had a taco lunch today. Her weight is easily holding at 119 lbs.

r-ALA definitely seems to be working for her. We are going to be on vacation for a week after today... so I will be interested to see where her weight is a week from now... sloppy eating coming up.

I've found that I can get very sloppy one day and eat clean the next and maintain my b/f easily with r-ALA and ALA. I don't know if I respond to it better than other people... but I definitely seem to be getting a good reaction.

The only difference I've noticed is I get a little dizzy on ALA.

I have also established that there is a clear water/air/clouds bell range for both r-ALA and ALA as a cognative enhancer. I don't have time to write about this now... but I will try to post about this when I get back from the mountains.

 

[Ulter]

Have fun bro.

 

[Lumberg]

I have also established that there is a clear water/air/clouds bell range for both r-ALA and ALA as a cognative enhancer. I don't have time to write about this now... but I will try to post about this when I get back from the mountains.

WTF does this mean?!?!?!?! He's already moved on to higher cognitive level..us mere mortals just can't keep up.

 

[rangerx83]

I have also established that there is a clear water/air/clouds bell range for both r-ALA and ALA as a cognative enhancer. I don't have time to write about this now... but I will try to post about this when I get back from the mountains.

SofaGeorge,
combine you r-ALA with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, you'll be pleasantly surprised as to how much more enhanced your cognitive functions become. Your reflexes will become sharper too...

Rangerx83

 

[macrophage69alpha]

SofaGeorge,
combine you r-ALA with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, you'll be pleasantly surprised as to how much more enhanced your cognitive functions become. Your reflexes will become sharper too...

Rangerx83

AGREE

 

[SofaGeorge]

SofaGeorge,
combine you r-ALA with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, you'll be pleasantly surprised as to how much more enhanced your cognitive functions become. Your reflexes will become sharper too...

Rangerx83

Been there done that weeks ago.

I was the first person in the US to have research samples of Acetyl-L-Carnitine for commercial use. That was many many years ago. I have always been an enormous fan. (The real blessing has been watching raw materials prices come down over the last 10 or so years. It is now in the affordable range.) There were some amazing products developed with it (and other substances) years ago that never made it to market because they were not remotely cost effective.

I've been playing with different synergistic nootropic stacks for a while.

I've found that the "blocking" dose is hit very low in a synergistic stack. Hence, the nootropic benefit also seems to come in a very low range. This would be a great subject for further discussion; unfortunately, the information is so involved that it would have to be covered in a conference call rather than on internet posts.

 

[rangerx83]

Been there done that weeks ago.

I was the first person in the US to have research samples of Acetyl-L-Carnitine for commercial use. That was many many years ago. I have always been an enormous fan. (The real blessing has been watching raw materials prices come down over the last 10 or so years. It is now in the affordable range.) There were some amazing products developed with it (and other substances) years ago that never made it to market because they were not remotely cost effective.

I've been playing with different synergistic nootropic stacks for a while.

I've found that the "blocking" dose is hit very low in a synergistic stack. Hence, the nootropic benefit also seems to come in a very low range. This would be a great subject for further discussion; unfortunately, the information is so involved that it would have to be covered in a conference call rather than on internet posts.

I understand that you tried ALC alone several years ago, but have you tried it in combination with r-ALA? Someone posted a research report that stated that ALA+ALC is very, very good for you, better than either alone. I've tried ALC alone and was not impressed. However ALC + r-ALA is *amazing*.

My motor skills and coordination have improved tremendously to the point that I feel ten years younger..

RangerX

 

[Fonz]

I understand that you tried ALC alone several years ago, but have you tried it in combination with r-ALA? Someone posted a research report that stated that ALA+ALC is very, very good for you, better than either alone. I've tried ALC alone and was not impressed. However ALC + r-ALA is *amazing*.

My motor skills and coordination have improved tremendously to the point that I feel ten years younger..

RangerX

2 questions:

1. Whats dosage of ALC

2. Where did you buy the ALC from(Purity counts)

I'm starting my Mega-nootropic stack now for
University(Start. Jan) si this interest me.

Fonz

 

[SofaGeorge]

2 questions:

1. Whats dosage of ALC

2. Where did you buy the ALC from(Purity counts)

I'm starting my Mega-nootropic stack now for
University(Start. Jan) si this interest me.

Fonz

Fonz, the dosage tends to go down with synergistic nootropics. Hence, if you are using 2000mgALC to get an effect... you may only need 500 when mixing it with r-ALA, vinpocetine, etc... There are a number of ways of testing a formula to see if you are using too much/too little/just right.

And ranger - yes - r-ALA with ALC. I have tried ALA as a nootropic but am having better results with r-ALA. I seem to get the "blocking" effect much quicker with ALA... which indicates my dose is too high when mixing the two... but that is on just one 500mg capsule. Oddly, it may also indicate that the S version of the ALA has a strong cognitive component... too strong in this mixture.

When I play chess on r-ALA my score goes up. When I play on ALA I start to go down... overloaded.

My best chess playing stack so far:

100-200mg r-ALA
1000-1500 ALC
200mg DMAE
100mg CDP
30mg Vinpocetine
50mg pregnenolone

 

[Fonz]

Fonz, the dosage tends to go down with synergistic nootropics. Hence, if you are using 2000mgALC to get an effect... you may only need 500 when mixing it with r-ALA, vinpocetine, etc... There are a number of ways of testing a formula to see if you are using too much/too little/just right.

And ranger - yes - r-ALA with ALC. I have tried ALA as a nootropic but am having better results with r-ALA. I seem to get the "blocking" effect much quicker with ALA... which indicates my dose is too high when mixing the two... but that is on just one 500mg capsule. Oddly, it may also indicate that the S version of the ALA has a strong cognitive component... too strong in this mixture.

When I play chess on r-ALA my score goes up. When I play on ALA I start to go down... overloaded.

My best chess playing stack so far:

100-200mg r-ALA
1000-1500 ALC
200mg DMAE
100mg CDP
30mg Vinpocetine
50mg pregnenolone

Thanks.

But whats CDP?

You don't use Bromo?Hydergine?Piracetam?Acetyl-L-Tyrosine?
Choline?
(Just curious)

Fonz

 

[EngiCream]

I'm starting my Mega-nootropic stack now for
University(Start. Jan) si this interest me.

Fonz

Hey Fonz........would you mind saying what your "Mega-nootropic" stack consists of?

 

[AAP]

So much for Fonz answering my question. I posted in here twice and PM'd you once dude.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Thanks.

But whats CDP?

You don't use Bromo?Hydergine?Piracetam?Acetyl-L-Tyrosine?
Choline?
(Just curious)

Fonz

CDP is CDP choline... very interesting stuff... stopped using bromo regularly in the mid-80s... wires me too much. (Two of my old clients were the first research scientists to recommend using hydergine and bromo as smart drugs.) Hydergine is okay... but vinpocetine packs a more tangible punch. Piracetam is okay... not as interesting long term as I would have hoped. I've never tried acetyl-l-tyrosine.

I'm assuming you've read SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS and SMART DRUGS II. They are curently the best books out... but very out dated. The best current info usually comes out first in the SMART DRUG NEWS LETTER.

http://www.ceri.com/

Steve Fowkes, the publisher, has been a very long time friend of mine and I give him great credit for almost always scooping everyone else on what is new and interesting.

BTW... I'm leaving for a week. I very much look forward to seeing your ALA/BG info.

 

[Fonz]

CDP is CDP choline... very interesting stuff... stopped using bromo regularly in the mid-80s... wires me too much. (Two of my old clients were the first research scientists to recommend using hydergine and bromo as smart drugs.) Hydergine is okay... but vinpocetine packs a more tangible punch. Piracetam is okay... not as interesting long term as I would have hoped. I've never tried acetyl-l-tyrosine.

I'm assuming you've read SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS and SMART DRUGS II. They are curently the best books out... but very out dated. The best current info usually comes out first in the SMART DRUG NEWS LETTER.

http://www.ceri.com/

Steve Fowkes, the publisher, has been a very long time friend of mine and I give him great credit for almost always scooping everyone else on what is new and interesting.

BTW... I'm leaving for a week. I very much look forward to seeing your ALA/BG info.

Thanks.

Acetyl-L-Tyrosine is a more bio-available form of L-Tyrosine.

I use it on OFF-stimulant weeks. 10-12g/day will make the
lethargy see after an ECA cycle go away really
quickly.

Cheap too. BAC 100g for $7

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

So much for Fonz answering my question. I posted in here twice and PM'd you once dude.

I did answer it.

With your ECA and 6-7 sugar-free TUMS with it.

That will get rid of the acid-in-your gut feeling.

Fonz

 

[rangerx83]

2 questions:

1. Whats dosage of ALC

2. Where did you buy the ALC from(Purity counts)

I'm starting my Mega-nootropic stack now for
University(Start. Jan) si this interest me.

Fonz

1) 500mg to 1000mg. ALC + 3-4 r-ALA first thing in the morning on empty stomach.
Wait (if possible) 30-45 minutes before having breakfast. (Then I do the usual r-ALA with breakfast, but I don't do any ALC)


2)From the same place I got my original racemic ALA, Vitamine Shop, price $43.77 for 90 500mg capsules.


I really like the combo. Here's the most dramatic thing I noticed about using the combo for 1 month:

I'm 41.5, and I slowly started noticing that running down (or even walking downstairs) was starting to get increasingly diffficult. We all take for granted that our feet will know where to go next, even at a rapid rate when going downstairs, but I started feeling the effects of aging; Sometimes I just couldn't figure out where to put my foot next. I even started using the handrails to walk, for fear that I would literally fall on my face. I've been doing r-ALA + ALC at the above mentioned dosage and I'm now able to actually run down the stairs without fear of falling! The only limit now is my messed up knees, but that's a different story.


RangerX83

 

[ryce]

Been there done that weeks ago.

I was the first person in the US to have research samples of Acetyl-L-Carnitine for commercial use. That was many many years ago. I have always been an enormous fan. (The real blessing has been watching raw materials prices come down over the last 10 or so years. It is now in the affordable range.) There were some amazing products developed with it (and other substances) years ago that never made it to market because they were not remotely cost effective.

I've been playing with different synergistic nootropic stacks for a while.
.

Sofa, what do you do for a living?

 

[Amp]

This post is really hard to understand after taking 2 valiums, 2 xanax, and an ambien. What are we talking about here? And why can't I still fall asleep? I was hoping some of these posts would bore me to sleep but now I can't read them.

 

[juanjorod]

hmmmm_________________

I think hydergine and bromocriptine isn´t the best of ideas for a nootropic stack, it´s going to make you too lightheaded and dizzzy!.

 

[EngiCream]

Hey Fonz........would you mind saying what your "Mega-nootropic" stack consists of?

bump for my question

 

[Fonz]

bump for my question

Its pretty simple:

1. Acetyl-L-Tyrosine: 10g/day
(I do not like to run ECA's during school. They make it
very hard to sleep). Tyrosine isd GREAT for
alertness.

2. DMAE: 300mg/day

3. Bromocriptine: 2.5mgs/day
(I know some people get nauseaous BUT after 2 weeks
or so you adapt)

4. Hydergine+Piracetam+Vinpocetine ComboAll-in-one
from the Vit. Shoppe.) Only place I trust for nootropics.

5. Will be adding ALC shortly.

6. My triple Whammy Glucose stack(LOL)
- ALA(3g/day) or r-ala(1g/day)
- CLA(6g/day)
- GLA(1.5g's/day

The ALA/CLA/GLA is the BEST Blood glucose regulating stack i have
ever seen.

ALA works through non-insulin mediated glucose disposal pathways.
GLA makes ALA more effective. i.e. it is synergistic
CLA works through insulin mediated glucose diposal pathways.

Fonz

 

[juanjorod]

_______________________________

pop some coline in there for the piracetam especially if you´re going to hit it hard!!!

Dig up a little on hydergine+bromocriptine interactions... i personally didn´t find much, but i can tell you that it made me feel like SHIT (i really mean it, but maybe it´s just me).