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ALA bad for Bodybuilding???

Iron Gamer

Iron Gamer

New member
I just read an article in the January MD that says ALA decreases the rate at which muscle and liver tissue make new glycogen and decreases the efficiency of cellular energy systems.
I know ALA is supposed to be good for the liver during a cycle. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do the benefits out way the negatives? This is the first negative I've heard about ALA.
 
i started a thread a while back where i swore ala made my mucles fail much quicker while i was lifting. i never made any strenth gains when i was on ala....i have never tried r-ala but i am guessing its that same story
 
We got into the r-ALA topic pretty deep over on the women's board. Discussed some of those studies (glycogen and protein synthesis). Might want to do a search.

W6
 
Hmmm, that's a interesting claim. I'd really like to hear what experts say about this.
 
Iron Gamer said:
I just read an article in the January MD that says ALA decreases the rate at which muscle and liver tissue make new glycogen and decreases the efficiency of cellular energy systems.
I know ALA is supposed to be good for the liver during a cycle. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do the benefits out way the negatives? This is the first negative I've heard about ALA.
Click to expand...

Thats in respect to RACEMIC ALA not r-ala.

Fonz
 
I've resisted recommending ALA for liver protection due to the fact that it lowers blood sugar levels and instigates symptoms of hypoglycemia and even anxiety. I never made the muscle connection before but it makes sense. Decreased glycogen equals flat muscles and lessened energy levels.
 
Studies show ALA inhibits glycogen repletion. Post workout, you have a short window to optimally replenish wasted glycogen stores. ALA will sabotage this..


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.

It is the same way for rALA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract

The whole basis for the increased cellular glucose uptake caused by ALA is due to its pro-oxidant action, this is what you are saying makes rALA so effective:

"alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit"

This pro-oxidant action is what is causing the decrease in glycogen synthase, as the earlier abstract described.

I definitely wouldn't take it pre or post workout.
 
I couldn't get that last link to work so I will post the abstract in its entirety. The salient point is this has nothing to do with isomers of ALA. It is the basic prooxidant property of ALA that is responsible for its enhancement of glucose uptake in diabetic individuals, as well as its negative effects on glycogen synthase:

Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 2002 Jul 1;182(1):84-90 Related Articles, Links


Antioxidant and prooxidant activities of alpha-lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid.

Moini H, Packer L, Saris NE.

Department of Applied Chemistry and Microbiology, PB 56 Viikki Biocenter, FIN-00014, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland. [email protected]

Reactive oxygen (ROS) and nitrogen oxide (RNOS) species are produced as by-products of oxidative metabolism. A major function for ROS and RNOS is immunological host defense. Recent evidence indicate that ROS and RNOS may also function as signaling molecules. However, high levels of ROS and RNOS have been considered to potentially damage cellular macromolecules and have been implicated in the pathogenesis and progression of various chronic diseases. alpha-Lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid exhibit direct free radical scavenging properties and as a redox couple, with a low redox potential of -0.32 V, is a strong reductant. Several studies provided evidence that alpha-lipoic acid supplementation decreases oxidative stress and restores reduced levels of other antioxidants in vivo. However, there is also evidence indicating that alpha-lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid may exert prooxidant properties in vitro. alpha-Lipoic acid and dihydrolipoic acid were shown to promote the mitochondrial permeability transition in permeabilized hepatocytes and isolated rat liver mitochondria. Dihydrolipoic acid also stimulated superoxide anion production in rat liver mitochondria and submitochondrial particles. alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit. Whether alpha-lipoic acid and/or dihydrolipoic acid-induced oxidative protein modifications contribute to their versatile effects observed in vivo warrants further investigation.


Likewise, in the previous abstract posted by JGUNS.

"These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis."


So you ALA advocates can't have your cake and eat it too. If you accept that ALA enhances glucose transport, then the evidence points to the same mechanism being responsible for inhibition of glycogen synthase.

As Ulter knows, I have been cautioning people against ALA from day one. I have no vested interest in any competing product. This is not about having a financial stake in a product as far as I am concerned. It is about providing the most up to date information possible about supplements.
 
Jguns said:

The whole basis for the increased cellular glucose uptake caused by ALA is due to its pro-oxidant action, this is what you are saying makes rALA so effective:

"alpha-Lipoic acid was recently shown to stimulate glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes by increasing intracellular oxidant levels and/or facilitating insulin receptor autophosphorylation presumably by oxidation of critical thiol groups present in the insulin receptor beta-subunit"

This pro-oxidant action is what is causing the decrease in glycogen synthase, as the earlier abstract described.

I definitely wouldn't take it pre or post workout.
Click to expand...

re-read what you quoted.. it says no such thing..
once again tire of the sad ala and r-ala bashing.. must be those amazing placebo effects that cause the pumps :rolleyes:

btw- before quoting two studies, make sure to read them.. when it says AND/OR (pay attention)... and words like "presumably".. dont mean anything..


nandi- what is with these posts???.. ala does not work.. ala is more effective in adipocytes.. strange..

Why is it that people taking r-ala get leaner?? should'nt they be getting fatter according to your assertions??

why the amazing pumps from ALA and r-ala.. must be the reduced muscle glycogen???
:rolleyes:

before you leap to conclusion based on loose study findings.. maybe .....
 
: Am J Physiol 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E185-91 Related Articles, Links


Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle.

Streeper RS, Henriksen EJ, Jacob S, Hokama JY, Fogt DL, Tritschler HJ.

Department of Physiology, University of Arizona, Tucson 85721-0093, USA.

The racemic mixture of the antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) enhances insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant humans and animals. We determined the individual effects of the pure R-(+) and S-(-) enantiomers of ALA on glucose metabolism in skeletal muscle of an animal model of insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, and dyslipidemia: the obese Zucker (fa/fa) rat. Obese rats were treated intraperitoneally acutely (100 mg/kg body wt for 1 h) or chronically [10 days with 30 mg/kg of R-(+)-ALA or 50 mg/kg of S-(-)-ALA]. Glucose transport [2-deoxyglucose (2-DG) uptake], glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation were determined in the epitrochlearis muscles in the absence or presence of insulin (13.3 nM). Acutely, R-(+)-ALA increased insulin-mediated 2-DG-uptake by 64% (P < 0.05), whereas S-(-)-ALA had no significant effect. Although chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment significantly reduced plasma insulin (17%) and free fatty acids (FFA; 35%) relative to vehicle-treated obese animals, S-(-)-ALA treatment further increased insulin (15%) and had no effect on FFA. Insulin-stimulated 2-DG uptake was increased by 65% by chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment, whereas S-(-)-ALA administration resulted in only a 29% improvement. Chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment elicited a 26% increase in insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis and a 33% enhancement of insulin-stimulated glucose oxidation. No significant increase in these parameters was observed after S-(-)-ALA treatment. Glucose transporter (GLUT-4) protein was unchanged after chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment but was reduced to 81 +/- 6% of obese control with S-(-)-ALA treatment. Therefore, chronic parenteral treatment with the antioxidant ALA enhances insulin-stimulated glucose transport and non-oxidative and oxidative glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant rat skeletal muscle, with the R-(+) enantiomer being much more effective than the S-(-) enantiomer.
 
btw- your second study (helsinki) is a survey that is citing another study.. likely the hebrew one.. though.. even that is not certain..

note- in the system described using what are high molar concentrations.. most anti-ox have pro-oxident effects..

one might venture to guess that with further peer review.. the study will have been found to be flawed..

note2- such an isolated system has no translation to a living breathing, and yes heavily oxidizing organism.. just a small point.. which given the value of the above assertion was not really necessary..
 
just and FYI- 2.4millimoles (the amount used in the study) is 2.4 times the concentration at which maximal effect was seen which 1000micromoles... 1000micromoles=1millimole

this in insulin resistant cell lines wherein one might posit a normal cell line (like that of the rat soleus) likely requires a lower dosage to elicit the same effect.

btw- it is somewhat established that at high dosages anti-ox can have pro-ox effects.. so this study really brings nothing new to the table.. and makes conclusions that are not based on a appropriate study model..
 
I know ALa has helped me with musclegains while bulking. Pumps have improved ever since I started taking ALA. Maybe the effect isn't that big, but everyone I know who is taking ALA, not r-ala, seem to get the same pump feeling in the gym.
My experiences with ala are all nice. I get very bloated actually if I do not eat enough carbs while taking ALA. I discovered this one day when I lowered carbs and kept ala dose the same. Next day I woke up all bloated and felt like shit. Next day I did the same and same thing happened. Next day after that I increased carbs very much and no bloat. Seems like muscles really respond to ALa, to little carbs and you get depleted fast looking like you have lost gains and gained fat. So I think one must find a good dose for the carb intake. I therefor see no point overdoing the ALa if you are not eating enough of carbs. Good dose for me seems to be 5-7mg ALA per gram of carbs.
 
Macro, the study you posted was with respect to insulin resistant muscle cells. There is recent research demonstrating that the same procedures when used with insulin sensitive subjects had no effect. i am not trying to jump onto the ala bashing here, simply providing the research that I have found. Note that both of these studies were done with r-ala. The most recent study is posted first and the previous study with the insulin resistant rats posted last.
===========================================
J Appl Physiol 2002 Jan;92(1):50-8 Related Articles, Links


Effects of exercise training and antioxidant R-ALA on glucose transport in insulin-sensitive rat skeletal muscle.

Saengsirisuwan V, Perez FR, Kinnick TR, Henriksen EJ.

Muscle Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Physiology, University of Arizona, College of Medicine, Tucson, Arizona 85721-0093, USA.

We have recently demonstrated (Saengsirisuwan V, Kinnick TR, Schmit MB, and Henriksen EJ, J Appl Physiol 91: 145-153, 2001) that exercise training (ET) and the antioxidant R-(+)-alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) interact in an additive fashion to improve insulin action in insulin-resistant obese Zucker (fa/fa) rats. The purpose of the present study was to assess the interactions of ET and R-ALA on insulin action and oxidative stress in a model of normal insulin sensitivity, the lean Zucker (fa/-) rat. For 6 wk, animals either remained sedentary, received R-ALA (30 mg. kg body wt(-1). day(-1)), performed ET (treadmill running), or underwent both R-ALA treatment and ET. ET alone or in combination with R-ALA significantly increased (P < 0.05) peak oxygen consumption (28-31%) and maximum run time (52-63%). During an oral glucose tolerance test, ET alone or in combination with R-ALA resulted in a significant lowering of the glucose response (17-36%) at 15 min relative to R-ALA alone and of the insulin response (19-36%) at 15 min compared with sedentary controls. Insulin-mediated glucose transport activity was increased by ET alone in isolated epitrochlearis (30%) and soleus (50%) muscles, and this was associated with increased GLUT-4 protein levels. Insulin action was not improved by R-ALA alone, and ET-associated improvements in these variables were not further enhanced with combined ET and R-ALA. Although ET and R-ALA caused reductions in soleus protein carbonyls (an index of oxidative stress), these alterations were not significantly correlated with insulin-mediated soleus glucose transport. These results indicate that the beneficial interactive effects of ET and R-ALA on skeletal muscle insulin action observed previously in insulin-resistant obese Zucker rats are not apparent in insulin-sensitive lean Zucker rats.
======================
J Appl Physiol 2001 Jul;91(1):145-53 Related Articles, Links


Interactions of exercise training and lipoic acid on skeletal muscle glucose transport in obese Zucker rats.

Saengsirisuwan V, Kinnick TR, Schmit MB, Henriksen EJ.

Muscle Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Physiology, University of Arizona College of Medicine, Tucson, Arizona 85721-0093, USA.

Exercise training (ET) or the antioxidant R(+)-alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) individually increases insulin action in the insulin-resistant obese Zucker rat. The purpose of the present study was to determine the interactions of ET and R-ALA on insulin action and oxidative stress in skeletal muscle of the obese Zucker rat. Animals either remained sedentary, received R-ALA (30 mg x kg body wt(-1) x day(-1)), performed ET (treadmill running), or underwent both R-ALA treatment and ET for 6 wk. During an oral glucose tolerance test, ET alone or in combination with R-ALA resulted in a significant lowering of the glucose (26-32%) and insulin (29-30%) responses compared with sedentary controls. R-ALA alone decreased (19%) the glucose-insulin index (indicative of increased insulin sensitivity), and this parameter was reduced (48-52%) to the greatest extent in the ET and combined treatment groups. ET or R-ALA individually increased insulin-mediated glucose transport activity in isolated epitrochlearis (44-48%) and soleus (37-57%) muscles. The greatest increases in insulin action in these muscles (80 and 99%, respectively) were observed in the combined treatment group. Whereas the improvement in insulin-mediated glucose transport in soleus due to R-ALA was associated with decreased protein carbonyl levels (an index of oxidative stress), improvement because of ET was associated with decreased protein carbonyls as well as enhanced GLUT-4 protein. However, there was no interactive effect of ET and R-ALA on GLUT-4 protein or protein carbonyl levels. These results indicate that ET and R-ALA interact in an additive fashion to improve insulin action in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle. Because the further improvement in muscle glucose transport in the combined group was not associated with additional upregulation of GLUT-4 protein or a further reduction in oxidative stress, the mechanism for this interaction must be due to additional, as yet unidentified, factors.
 
You know, I hate to say this....... BUT

It seems that the only people that defend, or get mad about r-ALA bashing, are the ones who have monitary interest in selling R-ala.

I just don't know if I should take these statements with a grain of salt or not. :confused:

I don't know about ulter and macro......... but Fonz is not really the model of integrity..... I hope that's not true for the others.

Ever notice that macro bumps the yohimburn threads with no info but just the (:p) symbol?
 
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I like ALA....Works very well for me and i don't see any loss in strength....I can lose weight fast when taking it or bulk with it...What else can you ask for? :D

Ive been thinking about trying r ALA, but i figured since Regular ALA works so well for me,why go with something else.....

If it aint broke don't fix it...
 
jbold..

this has ben discussed before...

the studies that you posted are a reflection of a general rule with respect to ala and r-ala.. that "juvenile" animals are very insulin sensitive and as training increases senstivity.. the impact of ala and r-ala is minimized..

however that does not reflect the reality of users..

1. most people that frequent these boards do not fall into the "juvenile" category. it is well established that insulin sensitivity declines with ages.. quite rapidly for women and somewhat slower but just as surely for men.

2. over 70%+ of americans are insulin resistant.

3. the only reflection of "minimization" of effect is with post exercise consumption.. there was still effect even in the juvenile insulin sensetive rats.

4. the studies that were critisized earlier (though recent) were extremely flawed.. using molar concentration 2.4 times the maximal effective dose in a non systemic (low oxidative environment) and the other was merely a survey that made broad and unclear conclusions..

5. the real world effect of both ala and r-ala are undeniable


btw to GnJ :p.... typing :p is a lot easier than retyping the above 10-15 times a day.. which is what :p offsets.

:p
 
"You know, I hate to say this....... BUT

Then don't it has nothing to do with this thread.

It seems that the only people that defend, or get made about r-ALA bashing, are the ones who have monitary interest in selling R-ala.

Did you ever consider that the people that sell r-ALA might be the ones who have done the most research on the product so they are naturally the ones with the most knowledge about it, which makes them the logical choice to post about it?"

I just don't know if I should take these statements with a grain of salt or not.

I just posted this 2 days ago but I will post it again because with all the great results being report ON THIS BOARD it is ridiculous that people would still question r-ALA's effectiveness. But you can take all these board members posts with that salt as well because they are probably all getting paid. :rolleyes:



Sofageorge
r-ALA has turned me into a complete diet slob. Maybe I respond to it too well. I don't have to be careful at all now about what I eat.

Yesterday's lunch was a jumbo hotdog smothered with everything... two slices of peperroni pizza... and a jumbo hand dipped icecream bar rolled in nuts. I'm eating like this every day... and r-ALA is easily holding me in the 8% bodyfat range.



Huckleberryfinaplex
Been on it for a few days now.Muscles already feeling pumped.This morning,I made a mistake. I took 500mgs with nothing but a Met-Rx protein plus bar(low carb/sugar content).I nearly passed out.Got very lightheaded and dizzy.Hypo-city.Sort of reminds me of how DNP makes me feel on lower carbs,lol.Definitely very potent stuff at regulating insulin.


rj420

I just started it last week and it was working great... until I fucked up my back and now I can't train.AHHHHHHHH

Definitely could see the nootropic effect as well. Great, underated product.

Frackal

R-ala for me has been superior in body composition changes, and keeping me from holding alot of water, when I stop r-ala in between shipments I look pretty crappy...r-ala pretty much keeps me at a good level of leaness maybe 2%bf less than I would be if everythign was the same otherwise.

gUiLe

I read a lot of people talk about the lack of the "Hypo" feeling/effect while using R-ala. I have used ALA MANY times in the past and have felt it many times. This morning, I took 400mg
of R-ala post cardio with a whey shake and oatmeal. I am STILL feeling hypo!!! This seems to be some potent stuff...

Ceebs

I experimented with various amounts over my last 2-day refeed, and found that small amounts frequently (100-200 mg every 2-3 hours) worked "better" than larger amounts less frequently (400 mg every 4-6 hours). On the day when I took the smaller amounts frequently, I got fewer symptoms of hypoglycemia, my strength was up, and I just felt better mentally.

FitFossil

To get back on topic... As far as the r-ALA goes I love it. I can eat carbs at night and wake up w/ abs crisp not watery. Also, carbs don't make my sleepy like they used to. The regular ALA sometimes made my feel shaky (and made my pee smell funny). I just ordered more bottles.
Spatts

I recently started using R-ala, which decreases my sensitivity to carbs, and have cut WAY back on protein intake as a result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
…I remained in a mild state of ketosis (according to keto strips) while taking in a variety of high glycemic carbs.

I have only been using it for 3 days, but it's the only 3 days in the last 27 years that I've been able to eat carbs WITHOUT falling asleep. I'm suddenly not hyper sensitive to carbs, and I'm loving it.




I don't know about ulter and macro......... but Fonz is not really the model of integrity..... I hope that's not true for the others.

Ever notice that macro bumps the yohimburn threads with no info but just the ( :p ) symbol?"

A guy developes and tests a product, his distributor pays a board owner to advertise the product, then he bumps posts about his product. And you have a problem with that?
 
i am not getting paid by AF or even getting a discount...i haven't really experimented with r-ala yet, but the yohimburn stuff trully works...my girlfriend thought i was nuts spending that kind of money on a liquid fat burner....now she saw the results i got with no added cardio and only a cut back on carbs in my diet and she wants a bottle for xmas...haha....i was using the older version and not the newer one, can't wait to get that kind for her
 
Good reply Ulter.

I have been taking your r-ala, yohimburn and NYC along with Test/EQ/var/arimidex, CKD diet, ECA, a short DNP run......... for several weeks now and I'm getting good results (better pumps, lost BF, strength, etc...) ....... the only problem for me is that I'm not sure if the positive results are from one component, several, or the whole combination. All I know is that it has been fairly expensive and successful...... what more can I say?

I'm just wondering how much of each component of my "stack" is more responsible for the positive results than others. :confused:

I guess I don't really care, I can afford it and like the results..... but I still have questions.
 
macro: since the abstracts that I posted do not mention the age of the rats and I can not access the full text of the article, perhaps you could post it or send me an im with it for my archives as I would be interested in seeing the age of the rats used in the study and reading the discussion section.

jb
 
I guess the problem that I have is that instead of having an intelligent discussion about rALA, everyone just jumps down your throat if you post any negative research. No one has really answered my previous studies showing that ALA inhibits glycogen synthase. While I use ALA with good results when I am cutting, I am not ready to claim that rALA is the be all end all supplement with absolutely no downside. I don't get a pump as easily if I take rALA before working out, and I know many others don't either. I think that the data presented make for an interesting discussion, which is all I am trying to promote. I don't see why it has to be lumped as rALA "bashing" or that the response needs to be so negative..
 
I think macro answer you Jguns, twice. The study is flawed and draws no conclusions only presumptions. All the other researchers, particularly the Koreans at USC School of Pharm and the Japanese, found otherwise.
The studies done with lean rats are all juvenile rats, there are no lean old rats that are not insulin resistant. Unless they genetically engineered them just for this study, but at a cost of $40,000 per rat what are the chances they did that?
There are some downsides for some people with r-ALA. For some women the lowered insulin levels is causing them to need to take in more water, for instance. All the ups and downs are all posted on these boards. Which is why we introduced the product here in the first place. We have 30 years of studies but we need real world results and this is the best place to get them.
 
jguns... the baching reference was actually more directed at nandi..

thouhg your presentation was an attack.. not a "what does this mean?"


btw- both ala and r-ala are effective.. r-ala just has effects that are not present with racemic due tothe presence of the s isomer..

most of the benefit with respect to r-ala lies in its insulin lowering effect..


btw- someone sent me a copy of the study on protein synth.. just a quick note the amount of slin needed for amino transport is extremely minor.. part of the reason that some have never advocated the use of exogenous slin :p
 
GinNJuice said:
You know, I hate to say this....... BUT

It seems that the only people that defend, or get mad about r-ALA bashing, are the ones who have monitary interest in selling R-ala.

I just don't know if I should take these statements with a grain of salt or not. :confused:

I don't know about ulter and macro......... but Fonz is not really the model of integrity..... I hope that's not true for the others.

Ever notice that macro bumps the yohimburn threads with no info but just the (:p) symbol?
Click to expand...

You're starting to become imcreasingly annoying.

If you want to test something, I SUGGEST YOU GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND DO IT YOURSELF.

I'm getting sick of people like you.

Always criticizing and never doing any work themselves.

I spent my own money and time to test the ala/r-ala hypothesis.

And I did it for free too.

And then I read comments like yours.

Go back to the chat board. I will delete any more of your
posts here.

Fonz
 
Macrophage, my post was neither an attack, nor a "what does this mean" I was simply presenting evidence. I can repost the original study on glycogen synthase. My second post was just to show that the argument cannot be made that it does not apply to rALA.


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.
 
ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.
 
ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.

As a liver protectant, I think there may be some minor benefit, but I believe that calcium D-glucarate, N-acetyl cystien and even asparagus extract are better for this purpose.

I take all of that stuff.
 
the baching reference was actually more directed at nandi..
Click to expand...

So whenever someone has a different opinion than you it is bashing? That's pretty sad. Every study that ever says anything negative about ALA is always "flawed" in your opinion as well, it seems. But flawed in some nebulous way. Like your claim that the invitro study on inhibition of glycogen synthesis was "flawed" because it occurred in a low oxidative environment. Maybe this is why the oxidant t-butylhydroperoxide was added: to better simulate the redox status in living tissue. The result: an even greater impact on glycogen synthesis.

At some point you really should quit bashing anyone that has a different opinion than you, and accept that in science there are generally conflicting studies. Just because a study conflicts with yours, it is not necessarily flawed.I don't think it lends much credibility to your position to attack me as a basher because I happen to disagree with you.

Are you the only person on the board entitled to an opinion?
 
The studies posted by ala proponents indicate that ala stimulates glucose uptake in fat cells as well as muscle cellss, in fact there was a 10fold increase in the number of glut 4 transporters in the fat cells.


Fukkenshredded said:
ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.
Click to expand...
 
jboldman that claim was answered for you twice.

Nandi when are you going to figure out it's not what you say. It's how you say it. You post like you have some axe to grind whenever you post about our products.

Jguns, I posted this last night maybe you skipped it.

See this statement.
"The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis.

s-ALA inhibits mitochondrial function. r-ALA does not because it is a coenzyme of the function. THEY USED RACEMIC SO IT INHIBITED THE MITOCHONDRIAL FUNCTION ELIMINATING MOST OF THE GLYCOGEN SYNTHESIS.
If they used r-ALA this would not have happened. Look it up.

Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Mar;26(5-6):685-94

The inhibitory effects of lipoic compounds on mammalian pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and its catalytic components.
Hong YS, Jacobia SJ, Packer L, Patel MS.

Zimmer G, Mainka L, Ulrich H. ATP synthesis and ATPase activities in heart mitoplasts under influence of R(+)- and S(-)-enantiomers of lipoic acid. Methods Enzymol. 1995;251:332-40.


Zimmer G. Overview of the role of lipoate in the enzyme complexes of energy metabolism and reducing equivalents. In Fuchs J, Packer L, Zimmer G (eds), Lipoic Acid in Health and Disease. 1997; New York: Marcel Dekker Inc, 67-86.
 
I think the issue here is insulin sensitive or not insulin sensitive. Clearly the scientists that published the study in the journal of applied physiology (and the peer review staff) clearly thought there were implications. If it is effective on insulin sensitive muscle tissue there must be studies?

Although I agree with you that most here are not juveniles(behavior notwithstanding GRIN) i disagree withyour conclusions that because they are not they must be insulin insensitive. You can not have your cake and eat it too, either insulin sensitivity has something to do with r-ala and its effectiveness or not. I doubt the majority or even a large percentage of members are insulin resistant. I'm not sure where you got your numbers from but the estimates of insulin resistant population that I have seen range from 10-33%, a far cry from 70%.

You are correct in stating that most(that I have seen) responses about r-ala have been positive. I have not had a chance to try it myself, I tried racemic ala and had no luck with it except heartburn and am reluctant to try the "r" since it is so expensive.





macrophage69alpha said:
jbold..

this has ben discussed before...

the studies that you posted are a reflection of a general rule with respect to ala and r-ala.. that "juvenile" animals are very insulin sensitive and as training increases senstivity.. the impact of ala and r-ala is minimized..

however that does not reflect the reality of users..

1. most people that frequent these boards do not fall into the "juvenile" category. it is well established that insulin sensitivity declines with ages.. quite rapidly for women and somewhat slower but just as surely for men.

2. over 70%+ of americans are insulin resistant.

3. the only reflection of "minimization" of effect is with post exercise consumption.. there was still effect even in the juvenile insulin sensetive rats.

4. the studies that were critisized earlier (though recent) were extremely flawed.. using molar concentration 2.4 times the maximal effective dose in a non systemic (low oxidative environment) and the other was merely a survey that made broad and unclear conclusions..

5. the real world effect of both ala and r-ala are undeniable


btw to GnJ :p.... typing :p is a lot easier than retyping the above 10-15 times a day.. which is what :p offsets.

:p
Click to expand...
 
Fukkenshredded said:

As a liver protectant, I think there may be some minor benefit, but I believe that calcium D-glucarate, N-acetyl cystien and even asparagus extract are better for this purpose.

I take all of that stuff.
Click to expand...

Fukkenshredded.....what doses of the above 3 liver protectants do you take daily??...do you feel these are the best liver protectants to take while on orals?


thanks
 
Just like to throw in my 2 cents. I've noticed a bunch of the people throwing in experiences have under 200 posts and are new members. While I am not that frequent of a poster I've been around EF for over a year so I figured I'd throw in my opinion.

I didn't think r-ALA did much for me until I went off it. I've been on it for like 5 months and was really lean, then I went off and lots my abs big time and my diet was actually cleaner! It definitely helps with keeping those lbs off. In terms of strength gain and pumps I never noticed much but I'll see as I have not worked out since I have gotten my new r-ALA shipment. I was only off r-ALA for like 1.5 weeks and noticed a significant change for the worse.
 
nandi,

everyone is entitled to their opinion.. however you post studies and act as though they are facts..

the study was in fact flawed.. if you cannot see that then perhaps you should read and then re-read the comments.



it is very interesting that the 2 of the 3 people discussing, negatively, this subject have never tried r-ala.

however.. there is nothing wrong with posting studies.. but unless you temper such posts with explanation.. which is not the case.. seems that these posts are more often accompanied by a "oh see, i was right, it does not work.."

btw- people do send copies of your posts.. so that is how one knows that this is the case..
 
Fonz said:


You're starting to become imcreasingly annoying.

If you want to test something, I SUGGEST YOU GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND DO IT YOURSELF.

I'm getting sick of people like you.

Always criticizing and never doing any work themselves.

I spent my own money and time to test the ala/r-ala hypothesis.

And I did it for free too.

And then I read comments like yours.

Go back to the chat board. I will delete any more of your
posts here.

Fonz
Click to expand...

No flame intended, honestly, but this kind of response is beneath you, Fonz.

Aren't we all here just trying to help each other?
 
kbrkbr said:


No flame intended, honestly, but this kind of response is beneath you, Fonz.

Aren't we all here just trying to help each other?
Click to expand...

Everybody but him.

I don't get annoyed very often but he's a total moron.

He doesn't help anyone, just attempts to cut them down.

He can go back to the chat cesspool for all I care.

He's not welcome here anymore.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


Everybody but him.

I don't get annoyed very often but he's a total moron.

He doesn't help anyone, just attempts to cut them down.

He can go back to the chat cesspool for all I care.

He's not welcome here anymore.

Fonz
Click to expand...

Am I welcome fonzie?

BTW, I always wanted to know how you hit that thing and make it play music? :confused:

-sk
 
A little off the subect but..........should you at any time get OFF of r-ALA for a wahile? Maybe a little break (weeks/months) ?

I'm worried about:

1) The body getting used to r-ALA and NO longer giving the same effects

2) Long term side effects (any??????)
 
On another thread it seems that some of us who have blood glucose monitors were noticing higher fasting blood glucose levels while taking ALA. Alot of people mention the positive effects of ALA on blood glucose, but unless they monitor there blood glucose consistently over an extended period (daily) it would be hard to tell if the effects are all positive. Especially since blood glucose fluctuations can take on different symptoms in different people. Generally though, fatigue, weight loss are signs of insulin resistance.
 
spatts said:
Excretion and measurement of estradiol and progesterone metabolites in the feces and urine of female squirrel monkeys (Saimiri sciureus).

Moorman EA, Mendoza SP, Shideler SE, Lasley BL.

Department of Psychology, University of California-Davis, Davis, California 95616, USA.

The first objective of the present study was to determine the metabolic form and rate of excretion of ovarian hormone metabolites in the urine and feces of female squirrel monkeys injected with radiolabeled progesterone (Po) and estradiol. The major portion of the urinary metabolites of both hormones was excreted within 16-24 hr post-injection. Estrogen and Po isotopes in feces exhibited an excretion peak at 16 hr post-injection. The majority of recovered radiolabel of both hormones was excreted in feces. Chromatographic separation of fecal extractions indicated that the major estrogen metabolites in feces are in the free as opposed to the conjugated form. The radioactivity and immunoreactivity for estrone and estradiol (E(1) and E(2), respectively) in eluates of fecal samples subjected to celite co-chromatography indicated that both free E(1) and E(2) exist as excretion products in the feces of female squirrel monkeys. The major radioactive peaks for Po metabolites showed peaks in the elution profile at or very near the Po standard, and corresponded with the celite co-chromatography elution profile of Po standard when subjected to enzyme immunoassay (EIA). The second objective was to validate the application of EIA systems to measure fecal metabolites. Reproductive events of one female squirrel monkey across one annual reproductive cycle are described using the endocrine profile generated from fecal steroid assays. Examination of this profile confirmed that longitudinal fecal sampling and steroid hormone metabolite measurement in feces was not only feasible and practical, but accurately detected known reproductive events as well.

Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 12111683



Click to expand...


Interesting ......;)
 
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