ALA bad for Bodybuilding???

[Fonz]

You know, I hate to say this....... BUT

It seems that the only people that defend, or get mad about r-ALA bashing, are the ones who have monitary interest in selling R-ala.

I just don't know if I should take these statements with a grain of salt or not.

I don't know about ulter and macro......... but Fonz is not really the model of integrity..... I hope that's not true for the others.

Ever notice that macro bumps the yohimburn threads with no info but just the p) symbol?

You're starting to become imcreasingly annoying.

If you want to test something, I SUGGEST YOU GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND DO IT YOURSELF.

I'm getting sick of people like you.

Always criticizing and never doing any work themselves.

I spent my own money and time to test the ala/r-ala hypothesis.

And I did it for free too.

And then I read comments like yours.

Go back to the chat board. I will delete any more of your
posts here.

Fonz

 

[Jguns]

Macrophage, my post was neither an attack, nor a "what does this mean" I was simply presenting evidence. I can repost the original study on glycogen synthase. My second post was just to show that the argument cannot be made that it does not apply to rALA.


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.

 

[Fukkenshredded]

ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.

 

[Fukkenshredded]

ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.

As a liver protectant, I think there may be some minor benefit, but I believe that calcium D-glucarate, N-acetyl cystien and even asparagus extract are better for this purpose.

I take all of that stuff.

 

[nandi12]

the baching reference was actually more directed at nandi..

So whenever someone has a different opinion than you it is bashing? That's pretty sad. Every study that ever says anything negative about ALA is always "flawed" in your opinion as well, it seems. But flawed in some nebulous way. Like your claim that the invitro study on inhibition of glycogen synthesis was "flawed" because it occurred in a low oxidative environment. Maybe this is why the oxidant t-butylhydroperoxide was added: to better simulate the redox status in living tissue. The result: an even greater impact on glycogen synthesis.

At some point you really should quit bashing anyone that has a different opinion than you, and accept that in science there are generally conflicting studies. Just because a study conflicts with yours, it is not necessarily flawed.I don't think it lends much credibility to your position to attack me as a basher because I happen to disagree with you.

Are you the only person on the board entitled to an opinion?

 

[jboldman]

The studies posted by ala proponents indicate that ala stimulates glucose uptake in fat cells as well as muscle cellss, in fact there was a 10fold increase in the number of glut 4 transporters in the fat cells.

ALA pre-workout accelerates fatloss without accelerating muscle loss.

ALA taken with carbs minimizes the possibility of translation into fat storage.

That's just all there is to it. The rest is a question of optimum dose.

 

[Ulter]

jboldman that claim was answered for you twice.

Nandi when are you going to figure out it's not what you say. It's how you say it. You post like you have some axe to grind whenever you post about our products.

Jguns, I posted this last night maybe you skipped it.

See this statement.
"The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis.

s-ALA inhibits mitochondrial function. r-ALA does not because it is a coenzyme of the function. THEY USED RACEMIC SO IT INHIBITED THE MITOCHONDRIAL FUNCTION ELIMINATING MOST OF THE GLYCOGEN SYNTHESIS.
If they used r-ALA this would not have happened. Look it up.

Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Mar;26(5-6):685-94

The inhibitory effects of lipoic compounds on mammalian pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and its catalytic components.
Hong YS, Jacobia SJ, Packer L, Patel MS.

Zimmer G, Mainka L, Ulrich H. ATP synthesis and ATPase activities in heart mitoplasts under influence of R(+)- and S(-)-enantiomers of lipoic acid. Methods Enzymol. 1995;251:332-40.


Zimmer G. Overview of the role of lipoate in the enzyme complexes of energy metabolism and reducing equivalents. In Fuchs J, Packer L, Zimmer G (eds), Lipoic Acid in Health and Disease. 1997; New York: Marcel Dekker Inc, 67-86.

 

[jboldman]

I think the issue here is insulin sensitive or not insulin sensitive. Clearly the scientists that published the study in the journal of applied physiology (and the peer review staff) clearly thought there were implications. If it is effective on insulin sensitive muscle tissue there must be studies?

Although I agree with you that most here are not juveniles(behavior notwithstanding GRIN) i disagree withyour conclusions that because they are not they must be insulin insensitive. You can not have your cake and eat it too, either insulin sensitivity has something to do with r-ala and its effectiveness or not. I doubt the majority or even a large percentage of members are insulin resistant. I'm not sure where you got your numbers from but the estimates of insulin resistant population that I have seen range from 10-33%, a far cry from 70%.

You are correct in stating that most(that I have seen) responses about r-ala have been positive. I have not had a chance to try it myself, I tried racemic ala and had no luck with it except heartburn and am reluctant to try the "r" since it is so expensive.

jbold..

this has ben discussed before...

the studies that you posted are a reflection of a general rule with respect to ala and r-ala.. that "juvenile" animals are very insulin sensitive and as training increases senstivity.. the impact of ala and r-ala is minimized..

however that does not reflect the reality of users..

1. most people that frequent these boards do not fall into the "juvenile" category. it is well established that insulin sensitivity declines with ages.. quite rapidly for women and somewhat slower but just as surely for men.

2. over 70%+ of americans are insulin resistant.

3. the only reflection of "minimization" of effect is with post exercise consumption.. there was still effect even in the juvenile insulin sensetive rats.

4. the studies that were critisized earlier (though recent) were extremely flawed.. using molar concentration 2.4 times the maximal effective dose in a non systemic (low oxidative environment) and the other was merely a survey that made broad and unclear conclusions..

5. the real world effect of both ala and r-ala are undeniable


btw to GnJ .... typing is a lot easier than retyping the above 10-15 times a day.. which is what offsets.

 

[PhillyB-chargeback]

As a liver protectant, I think there may be some minor benefit, but I believe that calcium D-glucarate, N-acetyl cystien and even asparagus extract are better for this purpose.

I take all of that stuff.

Fukkenshredded.....what doses of the above 3 liver protectants do you take daily??...do you feel these are the best liver protectants to take while on orals?


thanks

 

[McBane]

Just like to throw in my 2 cents. I've noticed a bunch of the people throwing in experiences have under 200 posts and are new members. While I am not that frequent of a poster I've been around EF for over a year so I figured I'd throw in my opinion.

I didn't think r-ALA did much for me until I went off it. I've been on it for like 5 months and was really lean, then I went off and lots my abs big time and my diet was actually cleaner! It definitely helps with keeping those lbs off. In terms of strength gain and pumps I never noticed much but I'll see as I have not worked out since I have gotten my new r-ALA shipment. I was only off r-ALA for like 1.5 weeks and noticed a significant change for the worse.