A question to Casual

[Tom Treutlein]

It concerns HST. Just wondering how you feel about the idea that, the more weight you lift, the bigger you will be. HST doesn't involve increasing the weights past your maxes, but rather, lifting submaximally. If you're only putting 5-10 lbs. to your maxes each workout, yet gaining an average of 4-8 pounds per cycle, someone could (in theory) end up maybe 250 lbs (majority being muscle) with a weak bench/squat (as examples) such as only 200 or so. Correct?

Not sure exactly what I'm getting at, just some skepticism showing through. The program seems sound and all, but science has been flawed before and I was wondering how this could be (that you could get so big, and be so weak). I'm guessing, if this were true, it would be best to use this program, reach your desired size, then train for strength - correct?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Bump

 

[casualbb]

Hmm.

Well I've personally found that when I gained the most weight I gained the most strength, and that the strength gains were pretty good (10-20% after a cycle).

You're actually supposed to increase your maxes as you can from cycle to cycle. It's decent at increasing strength for a growth program. But yes, the focus is growth so you won't raise maximal strength nearly as much as on, say, WSB.

 

[casualbb]

I'm guessing, if this were true, it would be best to use this program, reach your desired size, then train for strength - correct?

That's my plan.

 

[Debaser]

Interesting points. However I was gaining lots of size even though the only focus was on strength gain. Maybe it would be better to train for strength from the get-go.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Yeah, I was mixed up with that thought, Debaser, since I've heard most people who train for strength end up with great size gains as well. Any more input on this?

 

[Debaser]

I don't really see the reason for training ONLY for hypertrophy. Don't you want function with your form? If you can have strength and size then why not pursue that rather than merely size?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I guess if something gave size gains much quicker than a hybrid, you'd train only for that until you reach your desired size, then start making that muscle functional and going for strength. That's Casual's plan, as far as I can see. I was juggling between that, or going straight for powerlifting or something similar to gain both size and strength.

 

[coolcolj]

I personally think that doing both together well get you there faster.
Each quality supports the other.

 

[casualbb]

You will gain size with a strength program to the extent that it fulfills the known principles of hypertrophy (and if you're overeating).

Those principles are:
1) Load. Lift weights. Duh.
2) Frequency: 3x a week to be in a near-continuous state of growth. Most strength routines don't do this.
3) Progressive load. Not over the course of months as many think, but over the course of weeks, even session to session. Strength routines DO do this, a lot at first and less as your strength gains taper.
4) Strategic deconditioning. Strength routines don't do this much, because it makes you weaker, and that's contrary to the goal of being stronger.

Size gains will lead to strength gains. Strength gains will lead to size gains. But neither is a 1:1 correlation. You get what you train for.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Rather than 3x a week, wouldn't every other day be better? It'd still be every 48 hours. No reason to take two days off for the weekend.

Strength routines don't completely decondition, but you do periodize training to allow the body to recoup, no?

 

[coolcolj]

There are a few other ways to gain size rather than the traditional you listed, and probbaly more effective as well with my brief experience with them, for a natural trainee that is. It's all in the CNS, that is something basic hypertrophy training does not address, and it's important. Especially from the point of view maintaining good reflexive firing. Maybe one reason why so many people pickup injuries from BB'er style lifting.

Dbhammer

(1)You can use two an-2 training session, one with IPM work(ae-1 actually) and one with OI.

(2)Or, you could perform a rate day and a mag-dur day. This would entail using an-2 RA work, for instance, for your rate day...and then adopting something like the following for your mag-dur day:

Neuro-Magnitude + Neuro-Duration Bench, N x 9 seconds RA at 51% + N x M(max time) ISO at 51%.

To do this, simply AW your weight, then do all you can to "pre-fire" your system with the neuro-magnitude throws. This will momentarily tell your system to shut off its efficiency properties in way for proficiency properties(all rooted in the nervous system). This will make your isometric an-2 hold that much more effective, and a hell of a lot more difficult, as you have effectively tricked your system to pump out large quantities of neural output(high muscle fiber recruitment) and followed it up with a long-standing set(which means that your conservation of efforts will be exchanged for the cue for added size). What will you feel like? I'd hate to ruin the surprise, but let's just say you'd rather be in a dentists chair! In essence, your system will be cursing you, repeatedly, as the set goes along.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

What...the...fuck? Haha I don't understand what you quoted at all.

 

[lavi]

What...the...fuck? Haha I don't understand what you quoted at all.

Duh... Isn't it obvious?

The key is to simply do some IPM and IO work and AW your weight!

 

[coolcolj]

What...the...fuck? Haha I don't understand what you quoted at all.

Well I can explain it for you

In DBHammer's system on usually trains every 4 days, and then after 4 workouts, you do a higher volume workout and then rest 1 week and repeat, but that's only one way you can do it and it's more complicated than that, but that will suffice.

(1)You can use two an-2 training session, one with IPM work(ae-1 actually) and one with OI.

So here you would alternate between two types of workouts - An2, stands for anaerobic 2, meaning between 15-40sec set durations. Ae-1 is aerobic, 50+secs.
IPM work is basicly 2-3 isometric hold sets, first hold is in the hardest part of the ROM, for 10-15 secs and then you do another hold in an easier part of the ROM for anotehr 10-15 secs, using a laod that is to failure or close to it. Usually for 3 sets.
OI is oscillatory isometrics - I have an explanation and a video of these in my training journal post here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3652436&postcount=551

Again done for 30-40secs - and you do them at the hardest part of the ROM, usually where the limb is at 90degrees to the line of resistance - basicly you tense the msucle worked as hard as you can like your posing and then relax fully, so the weight starts to drop a few inches and then you catch yourself and snap it back up to the start position. It's only a very short ROM bounce and not unlike depth jumps.


(2)Or, you could perform a rate day and a mag-dur day. This would entail using an-2 RA work, for instance, for your rate day...and then adopting something like the following for your mag-dur day:

Neuro-Magnitude + Neuro-Duration Bench, N x 9 seconds RA at 51% + N x M(max time) ISO at 51%.

Rate work is like speed/reactive work and you use weights under 50% of your 1RM, fast up and down. Here done for 30-40secs, which means about 30+ reps. Create as much tension as possible by dive bombing the loads as you would with speed work.

Magnitude is explosive work in the 50-70% range. In his example
you do bench throws with 51% for max reps in 9 secs, and then straight after hold the same weight in an isometric hold till failure a few inches off the chest or where the upper arm is parallel to the floor. The bench throws fire up the neural system and recruit a high% of fibers, and then you finish em off with the isometric hold till failure

AW - just means to factor your bodyweight % into the load, ie when you squat you also squat 85% of your bodyweight, bench/row is 15%, arm work is 6%, deadlifts is about 50%

Believe me long duration isometric stuff packs on muscle, and its hard work!
You basicly lose all the garbage time in regular reps and recruit more fibers doing em.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Never heard of this before, and sounds really intense. If I can grasp it completely after reading it time and again, maybe I'll give it a run.

 

[coolcolj]

Well all this stuff has been around for a while now, it's even described in Mel Siff's Supertraining book and by him in his various posts. But not many have used them till now

quote Mel

Explosive movements or oscillatory (bouncing) isometrics of the larger muscles groups over their optimal reflexive region may stimulate growth more powerfully than slower methods over the full range in some subjects ('Supertraining' 1998 Ch 4.2). For those who are familiar with the world of aerobics dance, the Callan Pinckney's system of 'Callanetics' used lightly loaded ballistic pulses based on this principle to produce physical changes which some bodybuilders said was impossible to girlfriends and spouses who did it!

 

[casualbb]

Rather than 3x a week, wouldn't every other day be better? It'd still be every 48 hours. No reason to take two days off for the weekend.

You're right, every other day would be better. I'm just simplifying it.

Actually once/day would be better, and twice/day even better than that. In fact, the best growth would be caused by lifting weights more or less continuously throughout the entire day.

Of course, we can't do that. 3x/week is a balance struck between frequency and fatigue and the average guy's schedule (7-day week, 2-day weekend)

That help?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

So could I work on an HST style program training every other day instead, so I could make cycles quicker?

 

[casualbb]

It's all in the CNS,

I don't know any other way to say this:
You're wrong, bro.

Growth is a mechanistic effect, a result of mechanical strain. The process is triggered by weight-induced damage, not "neural activation induced damage."

Do you have anything to back up your position?

 

[coolcolj]

Without electrical impulses muscle don't fire, as easy as that.

 

[casualbb]

Yes but it isn't the firing that causes the growth.

For instance, concentric only vs. eccentric only reps. Concentrics require higher activation to perform, yet yield next to zero growth on their own. Eccentrics yield good growth.

It's entirely to do with the fact that the load/fiber ratio is much higher in eccentrics.

Doing things to make your nervous system fire better or fire faster do nothing for growth unless they allow you to handle higher weights. And in that case the same could be much easier achieved by working submaximally and cycling weights up.

 

[coolcolj]

So if concentrics don't cause growth according to you then why do isometrics cause ample growth?

Explosive movements and OI create a hell a lot more tension than than usual reps and eccentrics. And since these are done for a long period of time as per above you also have good amount of loading "volume". Not only will they make you more explosive but will also make you stronger too.

Until you have tried it yourself you can't say it does nothing for growth, because I know they do cause muscle growth.

 

[casualbb]

Isometrics generally don't. And I can speak from experience on that one having done Sisco's static contraction training for several months. I gained some weight and it was all fat.

 

[coolcolj]

Not that kind of isometric holds

has to be done near the stretch range of the working muscle, where the load is at it's hardest, generally where the working limb is at 90degrees to the line of resistance.
If you hold for at least 20secs, you will get good growth, and strength to boot.
In some exercises I have gained as much 2-3 reps after each session of isometric holds as done per above.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Casual, since you advocate HST and would be likely to know, which type of cardio should I be doing during HST? I was thinking either A.M. cardio for 45 minutes 2-3 times a week, or HIIT once or twice a week. I'm looking to just bulk a bit lean. If I can lose some fat while packing on mass, great, but I'm not expecting miracles.

 

[casualbb]

I think that's a matter of personal preference.

I would choose HIIT if you can handle it, because there's evidence that high intensity cardio increases levels of many anabolic hormones (test, gh, etc.)

Check out this link on HIIT.

 

[casualbb]

Not that kind of isometric holds

has to be done near the stretch range of the working muscle, where the load is at it's hardest, generally where the working limb is at 90degrees to the line of resistance.
If you hold for at least 20secs, you will get good growth, and strength to boot.
In some exercises I have gained as much 2-3 reps after each session of isometric holds as done per above.

That sounds kind of interesting. You do have to jiggle around, though, right?

I could see that working because muscle damage is a result of stretch-strain... eccentrics stretch the muscle while lengthening it, causing tears. Perhaps oscillation can duplicate this effect.

I apologize, I thought you were talking about true statics.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

As always, you come through with a scientific link to support what you say. That's what I like about you, man. Not that others don't do it as well, but god that was a quick reply. Glad I posted when I did. How many days a week would you recommend it? I wanna do it for two purposes. One, to keep aerobic conditioning up, and two to minimize fat gain or even delve a bit into fat loss while bulking nice and clean.

So, you say...

 

[casualbb]

Oh lol that wasn't even the link I meant to post, it was this one.

To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with HIIT.

I'd start at maybe 2 session per week and raise it if you feel like you can handle it. I'm a big advocate of listening to your body when determining work capacity and volume.

If you're really interested in an HIIT program for increasing aerobic capacity, check out John Berardi's Mad Max program. For the few weeks I did it my capacity skyrocketed.

As always, you come through with a scientific link to support what you say.

Thanks man. Bodybuilding is very much a field based on tradition and lore, and I try to keep it real and ask, "how do you know what you know?" Most people's answer is "somebody told me."

 

[Tom Treutlein]

John Berardi? Eh, I never liked his ideas on dieting (he recommends are ridiculous amount of calories for bulking) and even though that's only one problem, I tend to let that set my entire opinion on him. How good he really is, I don't know.

 

[casualbb]

Berardi is a super-smart guy (just see his androgen receptor article if you doubt it). But as you've noticed much of his advice is to be taken with a grain of salt. With this mad max thing he's just parroting a protocol used by some major universities, so I'd consider it valid.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Haha, care to tell me what other things are valid, and those that are not on his site? I agree he seems inteligent but I refused to browse the site for that reason alone. Basically, what's worth reading by him?

 

[zxe003]

Quick question on HIIT. I see that it calls for higher intensity (80-90% of max HR) but does this also mean shorter duration? I've read a few things here and there about this and was particularly intereseted in the fat burning effect that it inspires post workout. What is the optimal duration for this type of cardio? If you tell me only 20-30min, then I'm fuckin loving it already!

 

[casualbb]

I'd rather not browse berardi's entire library at this point. Use your judgment

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Yeah, usually about that long. You just do sprints with intervals. Let's say, a 5 minute warmup jog. Then 20 minutes of sprinting/jogging (30/30 seconds, 60/30 seconds, however you wanna split it up), then a 5 minute cool down. So if you do 30 seconds for each sprint and jog, you'd do a total of 20 sprints, 20 jogs, which would total up to 20 minutes. Something to that effect. Search Google for it, you'll find a lot of stuff.

 

[zxe003]

Yeah, usually about that long. You just do sprints with intervals. Let's say, a 5 minute warmup jog. Then 20 minutes of sprinting/jogging (30/30 seconds, 60/30 seconds, however you wanna split it up), then a 5 minute cool down. So if you do 30 seconds for each sprint and jog, you'd do a total of 20 sprints, 20 jogs, which would total up to 20 minutes. Something to that effect. Search Google for it, you'll find a lot of stuff.

Right on. Yeah, that's kinda already what I do (when I actually do cardio).