A Note On The Deadlift

[Anthrax Invasion]

A note about the dead lift, from Dr. Stuart McGill:

"Power in the torso is typically associated with power lifting - and the dead lift. But the dead lift is not actually a power movement given the slowness of the task. Too many power lifters train slowly attempting close to maximum lifts but find very constrained progress. Instead, many see better performance gains by adopting true power training approached. One example of power training for the dead lift would be to reduce the weight and lift at much higher speed. This approach recruits a new population of motor units. The pull from the floor is problematic for many athletes, particularly for those who train with dead lifts but are not competitive power lifters. For these athletes safety can be enhanced by raising the bar and weights onto blocks for the initial pull. Then the athlete concentrates on the initial set position, imaging the motion and muscle recruitment. Focus is also on the lumbar spine locked into a neutral position and the extensor stress is felt in the hips. Then on cue (or self initiated by the athlete) an exploding hip extension occurs giving perfect vertical projection of force on the bar. The hip hinge is a power imaging task for many athletes.

 

[Protobuilder]

Nice.

 

[RipStone]

Good quote. For the past few weeks I have omitted deadlifts from the floor in my 5x5 program and have been doing rack pulls and GM instead(in efforts to strengthen my lower back and bring up my squats). With rack pulls, I am really able to sinc up the pull from both my upper back, lower back, and lower body. I would struggle to do this with deadlifts off the floor, especially getting the feeling that I was pulling from my upper back. Hopefully when I go back to deadlifts from the floor I will be able to sinc up my entire body now that I have learned what it feels like.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

From what I'm getting from Dr. McGill, there's not even a need to pull all the way from the floor for non-powerlifters. If you're not a powerlifter, but an athlete, then you'd be better served by pulling with lighter weights explosively from the floor - essentially, the first pull of a clean.

This makes enough sense to me for me to criticize it, not to mention the lack of risk to the lower back involved with pulling from just below the knee (typically where his pictures show the deadlift being done, raised on a bunch of stacked plates). That extra ROM you lose seems useless to me. Nothing squats couldn't hit anyway.

This will be debated, I'm sure. Just my personal feel on the lift.

 

[Kane Fan]

I have trouble pulling fast from the floor with any weight really

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

That's why you should pull from a higher place. Bar below the knees.

 

[coolcolj]

I never pull explosively from the floor, I pull under control the first few inches and then explode hard

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Do you even see a reason to pull heavy (to a point it slows speed) or from the floor, CCJ? To me, the part from the floor seems almost pointless, unless you're in need of pulling from the floor (as a PLer or olylifter).

 

[coolcolj]

depends on the kind of deadlift I suppose. But it's hard to pull heavy without form breakdown etc

if it's strict and you want strength then it's all good. The floor is the hardest part of the lift

that's why people do things like snatch grip deads to increase the ROM, get even closer to the floor. You end up using less weight, so it balances things out

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Do you see any problem with pulling the bar from a higher position, raised off the floor?

 

[fortunatesun]

If you're not a powerlifter, but an athlete, then you'd be better served by pulling with lighter weights explosively from the floor - essentially, the first pull of a clean.

Yep, many powerlifters in fact do this: speed deadlifts at about 60% of your 1 rep max. Speed exercises will develop power and control.

Pulling from the floor is to say you can actually move that much weight. The technique you develop from speed drills makes full ROM safer.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Right, but I would still think there's little point to pulling all the way from the floor. That extra ROM doesn't seem to help much outside of a competition. Same for squats. Going all the way, to the point where you get a sacral tuck, is pointless. You won't be any more functional from it.

 

[coolcolj]

no, it would be like doing cleans from blocks

as long as you don't get carried away with loading, since you can use more weight from higher up

 

[fortunatesun]

Well, functional if you want to lift a heavy object that's located on the floor...

I get your meaning, though. Many bodybuilders(I should say old-school BBers because I'm not positive what they do lately) would pull from the bottom part of their shins as they felt there was little benefit in terms of hypertrophy from full ROM and they could squeeze out more reps this way.

From a personal standpoint, I like to deadlift. I think the taxation on the CNS and the full muscle recruitment of lifting directly from the floor makes it not just an exercise but a challange. I do it because it's there.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

no, it would be like doing cleans from blocks

as long as you don't get carried away with loading, since you can use more weight from higher up

Gotcha. Yeah, I figured the loading could get out of hand since you can lift more from a raised platform. So long as this stayed in check, I think it'd be safer. I'm very weary of lifting from the floor due to my back. I never wanna get another bulging disc again.

 

[samee]

Really I think Dr. McGill should stick to leg spin.

I guess I'm the only cricket fan on here

I do both regular deads and speed deadlifts. Speed deadlifts are good fun and worthwhile for explosiveness and power.

 

[nelmsjer]

Right, but I would still think there's little point to pulling all the way from the floor. That extra ROM doesn't seem to help much outside of a competition. Same for squats. Going all the way, to the point where you get a sacral tuck, is pointless. You won't be any more functional from it.

Sincere question: AI, do you really think the bolded is true? In terms of functionality, wouldn't athletes, lifters, lifers, etc. want greater strength through the longest range of motion possible?

I'll be the first to say that the frequency of an event demanding strength in the extreme ends of ROM will be more rare than in the sweet spots, but there will certainly still be functionality. Greater strength could make the difference between success or failure of the circumstance.

Not fighting...just thinking. Thoughts?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I hear what you're saying entirely. At the same time, think of the bar just below the kneecaps, and the bar from the floor. It's still a very functional lift, and the little bit you're missing out on doesn't seem like it'd make much of a difference.

The ROM lost would be similar to doing a sumo-deadlift, I would think. For shorter guys, from the floor probably isn't a problem. I'm 6', and deadlifting off the floor definitely bothers my back. The part of the lift I'm looking for is the stuff that happens just a bit higher.

Also, just because you don't deadlift from the floor, doesn't mean you won't be able to do anything in that small ROM. You don't directly train every athletic movement, but you still perform in all of them and that performance increases as your lifts increase.

I dunno, maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm running in overdrive now. Too tired. Gonna go pass out. I'll feel more coherent in the AM...or PM...whichever.

 

[carlsuen]

ok.. guys.. could some one pls tell me what is ROM? i don't know what it is.. i've read the threads.. is ROM the amount of space traveled?

so from the discussion.. we don't necessarily have to dead the weight of the floor? and can actually do it from a higher platform?

 

[RipStone]

ok.. guys.. could some one pls tell me what is ROM? i don't know what it is.. i've read the threads.. is ROM the amount of space traveled?

so from the discussion.. we don't necessarily have to dead the weight of the floor? and can actually do it from a higher platform?

ROM= range of motion. Basiclly I think you got the idea right....the distance the loads travels. For example, if you do bench press, but fail to lower the bar all the way down to your chest, then your have less ROM vs. lowering the bar all the way down.

IMO one should lift from the floor when doing DLs, but they dont have to do it all the time. Its perfectly fine to cycle in speed deadlifts when the bar is eleveated, rack pulls with more load than your normal DL, etc All these movements are just gonna make your DL from the floor better in the long run.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Or combine said speed deadlifts and rack pulls (although I thought rack pulls were from above the knee - fairly high). No reason to do them off a raised platform or on blocks at a heavier weight than normal. That's not the point, but rather, sparing the lower back from that fairly useless bottom portion of movement and using less weight that a conventional, from-the-floor DL, and exploding it up.

 

[carlsuen]

so what's the conclusion..

 

[enigma4dub]

i think ripstone hit the nail right on the head. pulling from the floor is ESSENTIAL. the other forms of the dl are good but from the floor takes precedence. it seems like people in this thread are arguing against the traditional dead lift because it is more difficult, to this i say, there is always the smith machine

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Explain why it's essential. There are different reasons to use the DL. If you're not a PLer or Olylifter, explain why you'd need to DL from the floor, rather than raised 5" higher from the floor.

 

[enigma4dub]

why is it necessary to have a full range of motion on anything? why not 1/4 squat, benchpress about a foot short of your chest and row standing straight up?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Those are idiotic examples. There's nothing you're really losing by cutting those few inches off the bottom of the DL. Cutting a squat, bench or row short like that has a much greater consequence than making deadlifts slightly higher from the floor to save the low back.

 

[Tweakle]

deads from midshin feel more dangerous to me in the rack.. the position is less natural than from the floor and pulling the bar from rack pins = no flex at the start

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

I feel completely fine pulling from midshin. No flex at the start? I dunno, I feel pretty tight when I lift. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see or feel a problem with it.

But hey, that's me.

 

[enigma4dub]

Those are idiotic examples. There's nothing you're really losing by cutting those few inches off the bottom of the DL. Cutting a squat, bench or row short like that has a much greater consequence than making deadlifts slightly higher from the floor to save the low back.

whats up with you getting all personal? lol. i thought we were having a discussion. an exchange of ideas. anyways im sure some of the more knowledgeable members of this board can articulate the benefits of non powerlifters/olys deadlifting from the floor.

 

[silver_shadow]

actually i've been reading some articles that suggest that the best way to DL is not to DL but to use power cleans and GMs to build up a good DL! i'll try and dig out some links.

 

[silver_shadow]

here's a thread i started a while back with some links to articles suggesting to train DLs without deadlifting and explains the reasons why you would do this.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446368

 

[Chambewy20]

Those are idiotic examples. There's nothing you're really losing by cutting those few inches off the bottom of the DL. Cutting a squat, bench or row short like that has a much greater consequence than making deadlifts slightly higher from the floor to save the low back.

Obviously your deadlift sux so you do partials to compensate!!!

 

[Chambewy20]

Oh, and Tate is a walking invalid. Just ask Alwyn Cosgrove.

I'll guarantee you that professional bodybuilders are absolute morons, and I wouldn't follow what they do - ever.

Those are idiotic examples.

I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

 

[enigma4dub]

I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

agreed. he deals in absolutes way too much. unwilling to hear anything other than what he wants to hear. true signs of youth or ignorance or, both.

 

[Tweakle]

flex = flex on the bar, pulling from the floor you get some flex as the bar bends before the plates come up - on the rack you don't get that. I like rack pulls from just below my knee and can move some ridiculous weight for reps like that but for low pulls I'd rather do real deadlifts.

 

[Madcow2]

One thing that I think a lot of people have found over the years and I know I have, the carryover from partial deads to full deads is not all that great unless one tends to miss at lockout and even then it's not a certainty. I've seen guys really work hard on partial range deads but when transitioning back to the floor, even after a period of acclimation, you just don't see it in their pull. I'd even venture this is pretty standard. It's just a different pull. Not that it isn't a good exercise and very useful for certain thingsbut I don't think it's a complete exercise in itself meaning that the carryover in the opposite direction works quite well (sort of like partial squats not driving up the full squat but full squats driving partials). My take and data point anyway.

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

Or combine said speed deadlifts and rack pulls (although I thought rack pulls were from above the knee - fairly high). No reason to do them off a raised platform or on blocks at a heavier weight than normal. That's not the point, but rather, sparing the lower back from that fairly useless bottom portion of movement and using less weight that a conventional, from-the-floor DL, and exploding it up.

Good lord son, what do you mean by sparing the lower back from the useless portion of this exercise? If you would choose to do a higher version of the deadlift exercise, that is cool, but doesn't make the DL from the floor 'useless'. For example, if one were to look at this article as an example of the numerous variations on the exercise - they are overwhelming. ME Deadlift Exercises

There is never only one variation that is correct, better or right for a person. Every person is different and may choose one form based upon their build and goals. Sometimes a person does need more training in one specific part of the lift to actually be able to accomplish it, much like in the bench press. For example a bencher may have some trouble with their lockout, so they used a 3,4 or 5 board press dependent upon their weakness. Same with a deadlift. If one has trouble pulling from the floor or trouble locking out at the top - these two different weaknesses require additional, yet particular training.

I'm no guru, but it makes sense to me that anyone would need variation with respect to any training regime. If one wants to do some partial deadlifts or off pins, mats, etc. to raise the height, that's cool - but don't forget that at some point you'll have to pick something up off the floor. (Oops, I dropped my pencil!)

 

[Chambewy20]

He knows what he knows and beleives in absolutes... either youth or ignorance, regardless he still is Dick!!!

Keep in mind this is the same Cat that wanted to replace regular flat bench with weigthed dips but turns around and posts a 5 X 5 variation with hardly any dip movemnents, mainly bench movements...

... him talkum lotta shittum on the interntum ;-)

 

[Chambewy20]

Hahahahahahhahaha I pwn u cocksuckerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr hahahabahahabahabahbaha

I think someone needs a hug.... oh and to get a clue, you cost me a whole -1 karma, you definately own me!!!

..or maybe spell check who knows?

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

I think someone needs a hug.... oh and to get a clue, you cost me a whole -1 karma, you definately own me!!!

..or maybe spell check who knows?

Why did he say he pwn's you? I saw nothing of the sort?

What the heck?

 

[Illuminati]

this is used in the Dynamic Effort day of the WSB routine

A note about the dead lift, from Dr. Stuart McGill:

" One example of power training for the dead lift would be to reduce the weight and lift at much higher speed. This approach recruits a new population of motor units. .

 

[silver_shadow]

this is used in the Dynamic Effort day of the WSB routine

well it's similar... in wsb they'd do squats at 60% 1RM for 8 sets of 2 at max speed. then within 4 wks u'd ramp up linearly to 70% then drop back to 60% the next 4, then back up and so on. this is per my knowledge of wsb.

 

[Chambewy20]

well it's similar... in wsb they'd do squats at 60% 1RM for 8 sets of 2 at max speed. then within 4 wks u'd ramp up linearly to 70% then drop back to 60% the next 4, then back up and so on. this is per my knowledge of wsb.

Generally for WSB newbies, it's one week at 55%, 57% and 60%, for strong guys it's 50%, 53% and 55% only as a gauge. This all relative to how fast your actually squatting, whether your sucking ass or weights are flying up. It's close to impossible to determine percentages when incorporating bands or chains, just need to go by feel and speed. We typically do 9 sets of doubles, you should be fastest around the sets 6-7 and dragging ass after 9, afterwards working upt to a 1RM every 6 weeks or so.

Keep in mind, nothing is set in stone, the most they pay attention to percentages is during a Circa Max but that's mostly for guys who can at least squat 3 times their body weight and are preparing for a meet.

Hope this helps.