Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

4-AD increases estrogen by 86%??

Monolith1

New member
Anyone have estrogen sides from 4-ad?


Endocrine and lipid responses to chronic androstenediol-herbal supplementation
in 30 to 58 year old men.

Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, Kohut ML, Franke WD, Jackson DA, King DS.

Department of Health and Hunan Performance, Iowa State University, Ames 50011,
USA.

OBJECTIVE: The effectiveness of an androgenic nutritional supplement designed
to enhance serum testosterone concentrations and prevent the formation of
dihydrotestosterone and estrogen was investigated in healthy 3 to 58 year old
men. DESIGN: Subjects were randomly assigned to consume a nutritional
supplement (AND-HB) containing 300-mg androstenediol, 480-mg saw palmetto,
450-mg indole-3-carbinol, 300-mg chrysin, 1,500 mg gamma-linolenic acid and
1.350-mg Tribulus terrestris per day (n = 28), or placebo (n = 27) for 28 days.
Subjects were stratified into age groups to represent the fourth (30 year olds,
n = 20), fifth (40 year olds, n = 20) and sixth (50 year olds, n = 16) decades
of life. MEASUREMENTS: Serum free testosterone, total testosterone,
androstenedione, dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, prostate specific antigen and
lipid concentrations were measured before supplementation and weekly for four
weeks. RESULTS: Basal serum total testosterone, estradiol, and prostate
specific antigen (PSA) concentrations were not different between age groups.
Basal serum free testosterone concentrations were higher (p < 0.05) in the 30-
(70.5 +/- 3.6 pmol/L) than in the 50 year olds (50.8 +/- 4.5 pmol/L). Basal
serum androstenedione and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) concentrations were
significantly higher in the 30- (for androstenedione and DHT, respectively,
10.4 +/- 0.6 nmol/L and 2198.2 +/- 166.5 pmol/L) than in the 40- (6.8 +/- 0.5
nmol/L and 1736.8 +/- 152.0 pmol/L) or 50 year olds (6.0 +/- 0.7 nmol/L and
1983.7 +/- 147.8 pmol/L). Basal serum hormone concentrations did not differ
between the treatment groups. Serum concentrations of total testosterone and
PSA were unchanged by supplementation. Ingestion of AND-HB resulted in
increased (p < 0.05) serum androstenedione (174%), free testosterone (37%), DHT
(57%) and estradiol (86%) throughout the four weeks. There was no relationship
between the increases in serum free testosterone, androstenedione, DHT, or
estradiol and age (r2 = 0.08, 0.03, 0.05 and 0.02, respectively). Serum HDL-C
concentrations were reduced (p < 0.05) by 0.14 mmol/L in AND-HB. CONCLUSIONS:
These data indicate that ingestion of androstenediol combined with herbal
products does not prevent the formation of estradiol and dihydrotestosterone.


You can follow the link on pubmed to get the full study and this is the key
paragraph


The action of 5 <Alpha> reductase converts androgens into DHT [22], which has
been associated with benign prostate hypertrophy [23]. In spite of the
inclusion of <Gamma> LA and saw palmetto, which inhibit 5 <Alpha> reductase in
vitro [5,6], AND-HB ingestion results in increased serum DHT concentrations.
Since the serum DHT response to androstenediol intake has not been previously
examined, it is difficult to determine whether the inclusion of <Gamma>LA and
saw palmetto in AND-HB altered the serum DHT response. However, the increases
in serum DHT concentrations with AND-HB intake were similar in magnitude to our
previous observations with androstenedione [9]. Therefore, it appears that
<Gamma> LA and saw palmetto do not effectively inhibit the conversion of
exogenous androgens into DHT.
 
4-AD isn't suppose to raise estrogen that signifcantly. Especially the Diol version. Dione can dramitacally turn estrogen levels high but I'm wondering where you got your study?


www.ergopharm.com

*Androdiol® is the most potent and effective "andro" testosterone precursor on the market today. Androdiol is recognized as the "andro leader" because:

Androdiol offers the greatest testosterone conversion, over a 310% greater conversion than androstenedione in University studies.
Androdiol cannot directly aromatize to estrogen (a problem with androstenedione).
Androdiol doesn't convert to DHT or its derivatives. DHT is linked to undesirable efffects such as male pattern baldness or prostatic hypertrophy (a problem with androstenedione).


I looked up the Androspray which is 4AD and there is no way that study you got had to do with 4AD the diol form.
 
Quietman54 said:
4-AD isn't suppose to raise estrogen that signifcantly. Especially the Diol version. Dione can dramitacally turn estrogen levels high but I'm wondering where you got your study?


www.ergopharm.com

*Androdiol® is the most potent and effective "andro" testosterone precursor on the market today. Androdiol is recognized as the "andro leader" because:

Androdiol offers the greatest testosterone conversion, over a 310% greater conversion than androstenedione in University studies.
Androdiol cannot directly aromatize to estrogen (a problem with androstenedione).



Its true that 4-AD cannot directly aromatize. Its also true that taken sublingually and taken transdermally the testosterone elevations are higher than any estrogen elevations. There have been studies that show this

However it is possible that taken orally at doses like 300mg you do get more estrogen than testosterone. If this study actually does use 4-AD (it may use 5-AD, they don't say) then this suggests this.

When you take aromatizable steroids orally you tend to get alot more aromatization (due to first pass) then you do when you take them in by non oral means
 
Ok let me ask you this, hypethetically speaking, if one has been taking 4-androstenedione, 19nor-4-androstenedione 5-androstenedione, for a year and has not produced any male pattern balding, could one say they are not going to be effected by DHT to cause hairloss?

also I gather we should basically stear clear from any of the dione's and go with the diol's if DHT is a factor for us? Is this correct?

Diols = good....
Dione's = bad...

Scaggs
 
Dude,

hypothetically speaking,

1) What are you doing using diones?!?!

2) What are you doing staying on them for a year?

JC
 
Dude,

hypothetically speaking,

1) What are you doing using diones?!?!

2) What are you doing staying on them for a year?

JC

Haha, A year, cylcing 4 weeks on 3 off 4 on 3 off, and don't forget, hypothetically speaking, so dione's bad then. So what do you think about the DHT thing though? If your head can withstand a year cycling the dione's would you think you're not going to have a problem with DHT and hairloss?

Scaggs
 
Scaggs said:


Haha, A year, cylcing 4 weeks on 3 off 4 on 3 off, and don't forget, hypothetically speaking, so dione's bad then. So what do you think about the DHT thing though? If your head can withstand a year cycling the dione's would you think you're not going to have a problem with DHT and hairloss?

Scaggs

Not sure about the DHT. I do know that it is still a significant issue with 4-AD because the test itself converts to DHT. As far as diones also converting DIRECTLY to DHT I have no clue....but I would guess that this is an issue for at least some PHs from the marketing hype for 1-AD (that it does not convert directly to DHT, though 1-test will).

JC
 
Scaggs said:
Ok let me ask you this, hypethetically speaking, if one has been taking 4-androstenedione, 19nor-4-androstenedione 5-androstenedione, for a year and has not produced any male pattern balding, could one say they are not going to be effected by DHT to cause hairloss?

also I gather we should basically stear clear from any of the dione's and go with the diol's if DHT is a factor for us? Is this correct?

Diols = good....
Dione's = bad...

Scaggs


I can't answer your first question for sure but if you were taking decent dosages of the adiones for long periods and did not lose hair noticeably than its a good indication you are not susceptible

If DHT is a factor for you then stick to 19nors
 
Top Bottom