The latest "theoretical" misconception

[blood_drinker]

Gy, you nailed bro, Im 100% with you. MS did in fact point out that it would mess with your endocrine system - but that healthy was not synonymous for not work. It works for 2 weeks, but then, for the remainder of the weeks it doesn't? To me at least, that is synonymous for does not work.

About your food choices, Im 100% with you on that as well. It just does not boil down to caloric intake. Quality choices in foods has a big role in what happens to your body.

The search function for tmag is not working for me. Do you have that article bookmarked or something, so you can post it here?

Peace

 

[Fonz]

Well, since I got 5 days of rest till Ibiza I'm going to grace the
diet board for that time........LOL

And Mr.X, I'm collating the material to answer your post
as we speak.(The one on the Shift diet/other)

Meal frequency depends on the amount of fat/fibre you eat
per meal.

Do carbs slow down gastric emptying? NO.
Does proten? Not really.
Do fat&fibre? YES

An Iso-caloric meal with 60g Prot can keep blood amino
acid levels high for 5-6 hours(even more in some cases).
The 1meal/every 3 hours theory
is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

A more important subject worthy of discussion is
the bodies ADAPTATION TO REGULAR PROTEIN
MEALS.

Person 1: Eats 6 meals a day of 30g each.

Person 2: Eats 6 meals a day consisting of:

10/10/10/10/10 AND 130g protein.

What happens?

That person 2 achieves a HIGHER protein synthesis
rate and protein turnover rate EVEN though BOTH
meals had the same energetic value AND
MACRONUTRIENT break-downs.

Whats the moral of the story? Don't eat the same amount
of protein at each meal. Make sure that during AT LEAST
one meal you eat A VERY HIGH amount of protein. 100g+
is preferable.

The problem is that the body becomes VERY efficient
at oxidizing protein NOT required for bodily functions.
By eating a LARGE protein meal you OVERLOAD
this mechanism and cause a MASSIVE rise in protein
deposition.

MS, thats why you made good gains when you ate
a BIG meal post-WO.

Furthermore, for all you Keto-lovers. For fat-loss
5 meals/day is actually DETRIMENTAL for fat-loss.
3 meals a day actually works better.
Remember, you're eating Fat+protein which gives
you an EXTREMELY slow rate of gastric emptying,
which equals slow protein release.
Also, blood ketone levels signal the adipose tissue
to either produce MORE/LESS ketone bodies
from triglycerides.
Low blood ketone levels=More fat used.
High Ketone levels=Less fat used.

5 meals/day=moderate/high blood ketone levels.
3 meals/day=Low Ketone levels.

Godspeed

 

[MS]

Yes I agree with ya fonz. There are a lot of BBs out there that have to eat protein constantly because that's what they've trained their bodies to be dependant on. And the fat and fiber issue is very important, especially for very large meals. It is accepted that 15-30% fat with a large meal will stabilize the glycemic response. Less than 15% will cause a large single insulin spike and too much fat will cause a bi-phasic insulin spike, the second spike hitting you 3-4 hours after the meal. Of course this only happens when there are significant carbs in the meal as well.

I also whole heartedly agree that fewer meals are better on a keto diet.

Blood drinker this is exhausting. Should I drag up all the individuals that have failed on an iso diet, or a keto diet, or a high protein/medium carb/low fat diet as evidence that these diets don't work. There is nothing truer in the world of nutrition than diets fail. Most of the time, especially in the long term. Some folks find one type of diet easier to stick to than another and that makes all the difference. Some people are very sensitive to carbs and should avoid or eliminate them. Diabetics and hypoglycemics need a diff approach, as do folks with renal or liver disease. To save you the trouble of searching T-mag I will tell you that they ranked all their diets based on reader feedback and the warrior diet ranked pretty low. That is only 50% of the people that tried it found it worked for them. This is not surprising since I suspect a lot of these people may have gone straight from a 6 evenly spaced meal-a-day diet to once a day. This requires a huge metabolic shift and is better done gradually if you don't want to lose considerable LBM and metabolic shutdown in the first few weeks. So for the last time I will state that I do not endorse this diet, and it doesn't work for everyone but that is not the same as saying that it categorically does not and cannot work.

I would like to clarify something which may not be obvious to many people following this thread. When I talk about eating below maintenance I mean exactly that. If your fat loss stalls on a diet you are, by definition, no longer eating below maintenance. So the answer to Sonny's original Q would still be the same. He just needs to be aware that his maintenance calorie requirements will probably change over time.

 

[gy]

Fonz, youre point about eating less meals on a keto diet is true only if that person is not suseptible to metabolic shutdown. If they are it would be more advantageous to eat smaller more frequent meals as endocrine health will certainly dominate over any type of signalling blood ketones would be sending to your adipocytes. Furthermore you can be in deep deep ketosis yet lose nill from your fat reserves. This *might* be due to downregulation of leptin or again any other endocrine abnormality fostered secondary to prolonged periods without P.O. intake. So while I agree that eating fewer less frequent meals on a ketogenic diet may be very useful for many, it's certainly unfair to label it detrimental as a blanket statement. Individual variation is extremely important.

Additionally, your point concerning the gastric slow down induced by fat incorporation into a meal is only true if the fat is a solid mixed/marbilized into the protein source. Liquid fats that are added to meals such as protein powder, chicken breast etc... will simply seperate from the rest of your food in the lumen of your gut and not affect gastric emptying to any great extent. Lyle Mcdonald was the one who cited a study on MFW to illustrate this point.

 

[Fonz]

Just thought I'd share a statistic with you guys:

The % of dieters that succeed in reaching a STABLE
weight is 1%!!!!!

Thats right, 99% of all diets FAIL.

Finding the diet that works FOR YOU is a highly
individualized thing.

Godspeed

 

[blood_drinker]

Fonz: Where did you get that statistic? I'm sure it's very true, as most diets happen to be fad diets. Very few people go the bbing style - instead, they do what they read in mags like cosmopolitan. Is this based on diets that are proven to work, or just overall??

MS: You state that you do not find the diets optimal (and you say you've repeatedly said that). If so, my bad. I agree with you in that they are not optimal - especially your points about messing with your endicrine systems. Most diets will fail over time - however you probably realize that your body's endorcine system will screw up rather quickly with this diet and will cause you to fail prematurely. But it works for that little period. Personally, it's not worth it at all - and while it works- it sure as hell ain't "optional" - something I think we agree on. It's true - I don't like the idea one bit. But going back to MY (not sonnys) original point, it does not boil down to caloric intake. While you take two 1000cal meals- you cannot get them from snickers and expect healthy weight loss - as you will lose muscle due to the low protein count . - In that you agree on as well. So overall, I think we agree .

1) It does not boil down to caloric intake. Quality of foods matter - especially protein intake to maintain lbm.

2) It is not optimal because your body does not solely repair your muscle fibers post workout.

3) Even though #2 is true, a post workout meal should never be overlooked, especially if you will try that one meal a day bulk / cut.

4) The one meal a day bulk will work, but it will mess with your endocrine system in a very short time - leading to failure. It will work for a short period - and if stopped before you screw up - it will have, ultimately, worked.

I stand corrected and now I feel that the one meal a day DOES work, but only when you take the above four (and probably many others) into consideration. I will add more as I get more time to summarize over the discussion. There is much more to come I can sense.

But, are we in agreement?

 

[MS]

Mostly in agreement. You have now latched on to the concept that this diet fails after 2 weeks because ONE person on this board experienced this result. That is fallacious logic at best and I can assure that this is not true for people that do well on this diet. But I agree that it is not optimal, especially if there is not enough protein present (which goes back to the original post by sonny where this caveat has been explicitly stated).

As far as muscle repair post workout.....I also agree and have also pointed out that it is best to have your workouts in the evening so that the meal is followed by a long period of anabolic sleep. Point number 4 of yours is invalid for many people and I still don't know why you say this other than you just don't like the sound of this diet.

Aside from all of that you've really bitten off a huge topic here. For instance as Fonz alluded, there is evidence that females gain more LBM if they eat up to 80% of their daily protein in one sitting. There is also some speculation that women respond better anabolically to a binge approach to eating. Certainly this is controversial and I don't want to justify anyone's eating disorders but ya gotta wonder how much better off many bulimics would be if they didn't feel guilty about their binge and instead just allowed themselves a once-a-day pig out with lots of protein (and kept it down)? In other words, in a more specific way than I said before I'm saying that this diet will work better for some people than others. The factors that determine it's success are, like any other diet, very individual.


Sonnys original question was "will I gain fat as long as I eat below maintenance" and actually had nothing to do with anabolism or cutting (though that may be what he meant to ask...I dunno). The answer is still no. If he had asked "will I lose muscle if I only ate 2 burgers and a snickers bar first thing in the morning and then trained hard at night"? The answer would clearly be yes. So by rewording the question you can get your answer to be correct, but that's just word games and doesn't advance anyone's cause.

Here's where I see we agree: Sufficient protein intake and meal timing are important both for optimal anabolism as well as optimal fat loss. I know for sure there are many other things we agree on but sometimes it's hard when opinions become entrenched. There is no need really. It is sufficient to say to people (as a personal or professional opinion) "I would not recommend that diet, and here's one that I think will be better for you". It is more controversial to say "that diet cannot and does not work" without some very sound evidence to support such an all or nothing stance.

 

[blood_drinker]

I also agree and have also pointed out that it is best to have your workouts in the evening so that the meal is followed by a long period of anabolic sleep

I had not read that before. It's a great point.

I did not ignore Fonz's reply - I actually took into consideration - but I had nothing to reply about really. He made his point and brought a lot of ideas to my heads - mainly that one about bulimics you mentioned.

For instance as Fonz alluded, there is evidence that females gain more LBM if they eat up to 80% of their daily protein in one sitting

Is this a fact? Does it matter what kind of protein - or is it just the amount? What do you think? Would this protein be post workout or right before bed (considering the workout is sometime else).

In any case I believe Im gonna be off this thread until tomorrow. As I type, the eliminatory match Brazil VS paraguay for the world cup is starting. This is decisive- if brazil loses , its out of the world cup (the first one ever). I think the whole country here will be in chaos if we lose. Pray for us MS.

 

[MS]

Good luck Brazil.

And to be honest the research done on women and protein pulse feeding was not done on bodybuilders. So the protein intake was pretty low anyway, and the women experienced an increase in nitrogen deposition in spite of the fact they were not weight training compared to women who ate their protein spaced evenly over the day. So it would be premature to say for sure whether it would work the same in BB females (it worked for me and my training partner though), and I couldn't say whether the quality/type of protein is important. The research is merely, shall we say, provocative.

 

[SonnyBlack]

thanx for all the responses fellas...i myself used to do the one meal a day approach when i was beginning lifting and i was younger....i would train right after school and would eat a big meal right afterwards. I FAILED MISERABLY! I truly believe that everyone responds to their own diet ...for example...i keto dieted for around 9 months and i never lost jack...but as soon as i cut the fat and upped the carbs...I STARTED LOOSING AGAIN! In other words without carbs...i simply dont loose jack.....goes to show you...that to each their own.