Time to throw out Bill Starr's 5x5 routine - two.

[LoneTree]

My source of information is Fleck and Kraemer. Their 2002 article in journal "Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise" has been adopted by Americal College of Sports Medicine as their recommendation for Resistance Training Programs. They are the most well known researchers in the field of Resistance Training. Dr W Kraemer is Professor in University of Connecticut. Dr S Fleck is chair of the sports science dept at Colorado College. Their latest book is 'Designing Resistance Training Programs 3rd Ed, (2003).


Methods of training are different for endurance, strength, power, and hypertrophy (body building).

SET:
A Set always means to doing enough repetitions till you go to voluntary failure - means you cannot perform one more complete repetition.
Recommended to moderately advanced trainer: Use at least 80% of 1M weight. (1M means that you can only do one repetition of the weight and you have to rest before you can do another one). If you are usine 80% of 1M, and you can perform more than 12 repetitions to failure, then increase the weight.
If you are using a weight that doesn't make you fail after 12 reps, then it is just warm up and not work out. They categorically say that 'it is wastage of time and you will have no benefit.'

HOW MANY SETS IN AN EXERCISE:
At least 3 (for strengh). For body building (Hypertrophy), 4. There is a vast amount of research available that shows that 1 SET DOESN'T WORK, except in untrained beginners (almost everything works in untrained beginners).

So 4 sets of 6-12 reps per exercise. 1st set, you will do 12 reps (this would be 12M weight). You may not be able to do 12 reps in the following sets, but you do reps till almost failure.

 

[view]

There is a vast amount of research available that shows that 1 SET DOESN'T WORK, except in untrained beginners (almost everything works in untrained beginners).

Lets see it my friend. HST can provide a vast amount of research that shows it does work. do one set per bodypart 6 times per week and growth will occur, even in experienced lifters...

 

[Ish]

Then why to powerlifters/oly lifters not do 3 sets of 12 on anything?

 

[blut wump]

I'm still a firm believer in empirical evidence over theory and thought experiments. My own experiments have resulted in roughly a 10% strength gain from each run of periodized programs. This is after feeling that I had hit the end of the line and that it was probably time to hit drugs.

If someone writes a book, though, they need a glossary of terms and it could simply be that this is how they chose to define 'set' for their own work. Confusing though it may be, it doesn't imply that they expect everyone else to have the same definition of 'set' outside of the context of their book or papers.

I define 'set' to be that which transpires between addressing the load and walking away from it.

 

[LoneTree]

Lets see it my friend. HST can provide a vast amount of research that shows it does work. do one set per bodypart 6 times per week and growth will occur, even in experienced lifters...

I don't know what HST is.
These are the best known researchers in the field. They have not described any one best method of work out. They have described principles that I am learning to apply to my work outs.
This book is based on 1200 references and articles.
Most of that research supporting one set is studies on the untrained beginners.
I am a research scientist myself. The overall weight of all the evidence clearly supports 4 sets per exercise.

Remember, the research clearly shows one thing: Your gains are directly proportional to your total workout. Example: 200lbsx12 repsx8 setsx2/week: Total work out for that body part: 38000 lbs per week. 38K will show better result than 30K. The exception would be when someone overtrains and doesn't follow the right principles.

Since more than a year, I have been using different methods and looking for some scientific evidence to guide me in my work out. Finally I feel that I am getting answers to some (not all) of my questions.

 

[Ish]

So what is your point on throwing out the 5x5? Where did you come up with 12 repsx8 sets? The post you made first says 3-4 sets.

 

[LoneTree]

So what is your point on throwing out the 5x5? Where did you come up with 12 repsx8 sets? The post you made first says 3-4 sets.

4 sets per ERXERCISE.
Preferably you should do 2-3 exercises per BODY PART in a workout.
It doesn't end with this thread alone.
I will discuss every thing that I learn in different threads.
If you do 5 sets with 5 reps each, but EACH SET IS TO FAILURE, it is perfectly acceptable to me.

 

[Ozz2001]

Routine whats that? I dont use routines myself ill tell you why! Everyones different! If you do the same thing over and over your body will adjust and you will not grow! Fact! Everyone has the perfect routine it seems huh?
Now failure....Yes going to failure rips the muscles and gets lactain going..
But are you building fast or slow twitch muscles doing this? Probably fast huh?
Now i bench over 120lbs over my weight max of course.I didnt get there from doing high reps to failure.Simple fact your body must grow to mantain the ability to push the heavy weight your lifting.So your going to tell me your muscles wont grow lifting heavyer weight with out going to failure? I think not! Lets put it a better why for you..low reps heavy weight is great for...
Benchpress,squats,millitary press..Now smaller muscles reps and failure yes!
Heavy weight and low reps is great to build strenght muscle mass and size!
It also will help you contiune to go up more on heavy weight..Simple fact if you go to failure your not going to be able to add more weight,its not going to happen thats why ppl cant get there bench up or anything else! Done the rep failure tryed it got no were in going up in weight it just wont happen,maybe another day...Simple you do a set stop before you start to strain and add more weight do it again,theres no set reps on this shit.keep adding weight till you fail! now you drop down 20 lbs or so and do your reps till you cant do no more! I bet the weight you droped to was more then you did before at max and bet you do more then you could when you were freash too! High reps and failure is for fat ppl or ppl cutting up! If you think you will grow big from from lite weight and high reps your wrong,might as well just to pushups and dips about the same thing! You dont have to buy this, problem is ppl want to see this big pump and look big so they rep high but when the ballon deflates you have nothing! Heavy and low wont show right off the gate but when it does it stay event when your not pumped up and thats worth the wait! Cuz you will grow big slabs of muscle not just a pump to look good! But in my gallery is the proof of the pudding! I was 110lb rail now i by new cloths every few months and i look big 24 7 if i would do pushups id look like a freak when i blew up! Point if your going to get big you got to lift big and if your going to faliure right out of the gate you will never lift heavy or go up in your weight! GL i talk to much lol

 

[Ish]

I guess if you have been doing this for a while, great. Doing 4 sets to failure per exercise, with 2-3 body parts 2 times a week will burn out the CNS of many people. Are you planning on a deload week? Frequency is needed, along with intensity, that's a given. I don't see the point of higher reps, personally. If you are training for strength, lower rep ranges seem to have been proven very effective. There are usually many sets involved, along with going to near failure and a high frequency of workouts, though. It seems like your arguement would be more directed at the regular bodybuilding split 1xweek, not a 5x5 strength oriented program, that already includes many of the principles in your new program.

 

[rbtrout]

I go by what works. I try different 'routines' mentioned here, there and everywhere, if I feel it might do me some good. I've got and read stacks of articles on how to train correctly, based on sets, reps, etc. For me, the 5X5, and now a slight variation based upon that worked the best for me.
No offense, LoneTree, but it's kind of like building a motor for your 68 Mustang. You can read all the books you want telling you how to do it. BUT, until you've actually done it, you've got no idea. I'm not knocking you, but have you tried the 5x5 vs. the routine you mentioned and got better results on yours?
One other thing to think about - like 0zz2001 said, everyone is different. I know people that do shrugs once every 2 weeks and have traps as big as my legs. Me, I had the best build in size on my traps by doing deads. Go figure.
Try your theory out and then try the 5X5. Post your results. We'd be interested in seeing.