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Underwraps
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As one that chooses to hypnotize myself into believing there is a God above all, but does not procelytize... I can "respect" his opinions. But, there is death and destruction from any side with or without faith because we're human beings with an instinct for power and control. To say it's religion that is the scurge is as much a blindfold to a human being's nature as putting on the blindfold of religion. If we all shot ourselves into the future and found ourselves in a Star Trek world with no religion, we would still be fighting for any effing reason we can find to retain more power than the next guy. To think wars will go away and we'd be kind and sweet to our fellow human beings once we ALL stopped beleiving in a God or a relgion is idealistic and is the road no one wants to look down clearly because they have the "faith" that peace would be so much easier w/o religion. Bull crap.
And, let's say we lived in a world w/o religion to teach us morals and values, on what basis do we then make up our rules, morals, and laws? I want to hear THAT lecture. That lecture would convince me more than anything. I will admit. It's the fear of chaos in my "S" type (D.I.S.C. personality analysis) that makes me to return to the belief in God who revealed "truth" for me while I also find the balance in finding the truth within myself. We can't avoid being influenced. We con't live in a vacuum. We learn our morals and ethics from the outside in because we can't grow up alone or be raised by wolves. So, just as I can never prove there is a God, you can't ever prove that humans will choose morals and ethics on thier own, unseflishly. We are meant to live in societies and societies teach it so we can be organized and cooperate and that requires helping each other. I think Hitler was truly athiest. He wanted the easy way out and wanted morals out of the way. Kill everybody useless and degenerate or who makes more money than we do and it will solve our problems. What an ass.
If you can guarantee me that we can all be atheists and we'd still TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER vs annialate the useless ones, then I could live with that and be convinced. You have to admit, aren't you glad it's the modern day Christians that take care of the weak and poor people FOR YOU so you don't have to do it and can go about your day feeling good someone out there is doing that nauseating work FOR YOU.
There are atheists who help. Sure. See through my generalizations. But, on what basis do they do it? They are useless to society. Why would they do it? What is the SOURCE of their conscience? Even in an all atheist world there would still be 2 main factions: Athiests who want to rid the world of the useless parasites: the poor, invalid, old, and stupid- and those who don't. On what basis would the athiests make their arguments to help the useless? Simply because society would unravel from hurt feelings that their love one has to be disposed of? I choose to believe my existence- no matter how stupid and ugly and useless I am, is special (along with all other creatures) because I human, have a soul, and am spiritually connected to all living things around me.
and the univeral human desire to connect with one another and on a spiritual level is where it's most potent.
I took a little journey into believing in no God and I went against society's morals to see what the world had in store and I saw the darkest of hearts and the emptiness and lunacy of the people I met scared the B-Jeezus back into me. I met Satain incarnate. He was heartless and had no boundaries and their was chaos and no accountability. That's of course just at a personal spiritual level. But, back to the big pic. How would we maintain peace and avoid chaos w/o outside revealed revelation from religion? How will I find comfort in the bosom of a new society making it's own way w/o spiritual connection to the best of our imaginations (God) and each other?
And, let's say we lived in a world w/o religion to teach us morals and values, on what basis do we then make up our rules, morals, and laws? I want to hear THAT lecture. That lecture would convince me more than anything. I will admit. It's the fear of chaos in my "S" type (D.I.S.C. personality analysis) that makes me to return to the belief in God who revealed "truth" for me while I also find the balance in finding the truth within myself. We can't avoid being influenced. We con't live in a vacuum. We learn our morals and ethics from the outside in because we can't grow up alone or be raised by wolves. So, just as I can never prove there is a God, you can't ever prove that humans will choose morals and ethics on thier own, unseflishly. We are meant to live in societies and societies teach it so we can be organized and cooperate and that requires helping each other. I think Hitler was truly athiest. He wanted the easy way out and wanted morals out of the way. Kill everybody useless and degenerate or who makes more money than we do and it will solve our problems. What an ass.
If you can guarantee me that we can all be atheists and we'd still TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER vs annialate the useless ones, then I could live with that and be convinced. You have to admit, aren't you glad it's the modern day Christians that take care of the weak and poor people FOR YOU so you don't have to do it and can go about your day feeling good someone out there is doing that nauseating work FOR YOU.
There are atheists who help. Sure. See through my generalizations. But, on what basis do they do it? They are useless to society. Why would they do it? What is the SOURCE of their conscience? Even in an all atheist world there would still be 2 main factions: Athiests who want to rid the world of the useless parasites: the poor, invalid, old, and stupid- and those who don't. On what basis would the athiests make their arguments to help the useless? Simply because society would unravel from hurt feelings that their love one has to be disposed of? I choose to believe my existence- no matter how stupid and ugly and useless I am, is special (along with all other creatures) because I human, have a soul, and am spiritually connected to all living things around me.
and the univeral human desire to connect with one another and on a spiritual level is where it's most potent.
I took a little journey into believing in no God and I went against society's morals to see what the world had in store and I saw the darkest of hearts and the emptiness and lunacy of the people I met scared the B-Jeezus back into me. I met Satain incarnate. He was heartless and had no boundaries and their was chaos and no accountability. That's of course just at a personal spiritual level. But, back to the big pic. How would we maintain peace and avoid chaos w/o outside revealed revelation from religion? How will I find comfort in the bosom of a new society making it's own way w/o spiritual connection to the best of our imaginations (God) and each other?
No you didn't. I have met more immoral theists then I have ever atheists. Morality does exist outside of religion.
Watch these:
Ever read any of the old testament? If your fucking god did exist his idea of morality would be a skewed and pathetic one.
Underwraps
New member
I knew this would come up. So, new tangent: How can you gage a real theist? Most people are sheep and will go along with what's expected. Very few theists really study what they supposedly believe in, even if their relgion is thoroughly equiped for the studying (Protestants) compared to say Thai Buddhists that believe, but there are few "church" equivalents to go study weekly and from "Sundee school".
I will be the first to say that the anti-gay preacher is probably fighting gay urges himself. I know of people who lived a lie and hid behind religion to mask who they really are.
So, we can't quantify who REALLY is authentically believing in their relgion vs a mere member for the perks or for the mask and social acceptance.
Here's my example of life without guidance: one guy was essentially molested by a slightly older cousin and from about age 10 and they carried on a gay sexual relationship until their 20s when the cousin move away and became a trucker and got married. That's just one and doesn't represent all and I'd lump him in with all the religious fakers.
No one can win this argument because we can't prove the numbers, but what they have in common is no real belief in a power that binds them and to whom they will be held accountable to. I don't believe in a burning hell by the way. Disconnection is the hell.
I'm also not saying being gay is wrong. But, w/o religion to be a burr, it's easier to do these things. Pedophelia is a better example. Just as the anti-gay preacher is likely secretly gay, I think that hard-core athiest "preachers" like this guy is probably a pedophile. Religion is a burr under their sheath of normalcy. They want to be free to do whatever the hell they please. I ran out of time to watch the videos, but I will and I'm sure it will bring up more tangents. We can talk about religion and a million tangents and be here till a new cult forms and we'd still not hit everything. So, I like to keep it simple. I hope to find inspiration in your videos, but my suspicion is those athiests who have morals are very fickle and lack any real warmth and desire for human connection. I hope I'm wrong and inspired by something new.
A straight jacket on humanity?
Faith serves a purpose for many people. I
the atheists and I respect that they don't need it but many still do.
Faith/spirituality satisfies many of the basic desires that people need. Power, independence, curiosity, acceptance, order, honor, idealism etc. Value based happiness keeps you alive. People need meaning in their lives. Life without meaning is not a life worth living. Who are you to say that meaning is useless...a joke...when some of us use God to help us rise above the human condition?
Faith serves a purpose for many people. I
the atheists and I respect that they don't need it but many still do.Faith/spirituality satisfies many of the basic desires that people need. Power, independence, curiosity, acceptance, order, honor, idealism etc. Value based happiness keeps you alive. People need meaning in their lives. Life without meaning is not a life worth living. Who are you to say that meaning is useless...a joke...when some of us use God to help us rise above the human condition?
A straight jacket on humanity?
Faith serves a purpose for many people. I
Faith/spirituality satisfies many of the basic desires that people need. Power, independence, curiosity, acceptance, order, honor, idealism etc. Value based happiness keeps you alive. People need meaning in their lives. Life without meaning is not a life worth living. Who are you to say that meaning is useless...a joke...when some of us use God to help us rise above the human condition?
So your acknowledging that religion is a crutch to humanity but its ok to live in a fairy tale version of reality because it makes you happy?
The problem is that there is more than one religion. "My God's better than yours", "No, my God is" blah blah blah.
Humanity is in a transitional stage where we're starting to realize we have the power to think independently of man-made religion, but we're by and large still too stupid, irresponsible, and fragmented to use this power to better the common good. Will that ever change? Possible, but sure as hell not in our lifetime.
Humanity is in a transitional stage where we're starting to realize we have the power to think independently of man-made religion, but we're by and large still too stupid, irresponsible, and fragmented to use this power to better the common good. Will that ever change? Possible, but sure as hell not in our lifetime.
digimon7068
New member
generally speaking, i'm not a big fan of anything french but...
Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.
Atheism shows strength of mind, but only to a certain degree.
Faith certainly tells us what the senses do not, but not the contrary of what they see; it is above, not against them.
Faith embraces many truths which seem to contradict each other.
Faith indeed tells what the senses do not tell, but not the contrary of what they see. It is above them and not contrary to them.
Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.
He that takes truth for his guide, and duty for his end, may safely trust to God's providence to lead him aright.
Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known.
If we must not act save on a certainty, we ought not to act on religion, for it is not certain. But how many things we do on an uncertainty, sea voyages, battles!
...Merry Christmas ya bunch of fuckin' heathens!
Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.
Atheism shows strength of mind, but only to a certain degree.
Faith certainly tells us what the senses do not, but not the contrary of what they see; it is above, not against them.
Faith embraces many truths which seem to contradict each other.
Faith indeed tells what the senses do not tell, but not the contrary of what they see. It is above them and not contrary to them.
Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.
He that takes truth for his guide, and duty for his end, may safely trust to God's providence to lead him aright.
Human beings must be known to be loved; but Divine beings must be loved to be known.
If we must not act save on a certainty, we ought not to act on religion, for it is not certain. But how many things we do on an uncertainty, sea voyages, battles!
...Merry Christmas ya bunch of fuckin' heathens!
digimon7068
New member
everyone needs something to believe in...i believe i'll have another beer
oh yeah...and see my sig...luv ya HT...no
digimon7068
New member
my grandma is real tight with the big man...i'll make sure you get a primo seat...IN HELL bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL! Are you shitting me? I didn't know it was only christians that paid taxes and made charitable donations. Is this a new tax code? Digi? A little help?
Last I checked, you paid taxes regardless of your religion and a portion of those taxes goes to social programs (welfare, etc.) to take care of the weak and poor people.
I'm also aware that Jews, muslims, buddhists, and even atheists do help others (poor and weak, etc.). But you can't be serious with this bullshit, right? Tell me you're trolling. You have to be. LOL!
Wow, and you think atheists have problems? Where do you get all this crazy shit? You're starting to sound like the Hitler you hate, with all your hate speech spewing at atheists. You sound absolutely crazy.
You honestly think that no one can be a good person outside of god? Even the bible you believe contradicts that.
Lady, some of the worst people I've met were in the church professing god every sunday.
It seems like you only see one way to have a productive and empathetic society, and that is with god/religion at the helm. Nobody is going to be able to change your mind or make you see differently regardless of how much proof they could offer. You draw on your own experiences, but let's face it, they are very limited in scope.
Obvious troll. No one can believe this stupid shit.
digimon7068
New member
In the great upcoming war of pirates vs ninjas...you must be a ninja...may the spaghetti and meatballs have mercy on your bidet
Yes. It is. It's likely cocaine, but people are too cheap for cocaine so they believe in sky cake. What's wrong with sky cake?
you do realize that you're arguing with a crazy person, yes??
Yes. I actually do. Not really arguing though, just pointing out her absolute glaring stupidity...or her trolling ability. I'm still not sure. She seems the type to actually believe what she typed...but she could possibly be trolling.
Underwraps
New member
Ha ha ha. You conveniently ignored my quote to "see past my generalizations".
I will admit, in a mad rush I was trying to make a point with off the wall examples and I didn't go into enough depth why I raised them up. In short, Judeo-Christianity is not to blame. The wars of the past used religion and now today we blame religion for the hate and violence. It is just a tool used by "tools".
The bottom line point- we are not bad because someone told us we are bad like the guy in the video implies that we should not believe traditionalist drivel that we are born horrible. Judeo-Christian beliefs, yeah, call it original sin, but just look at humanity in general before Abraham came along. Were we living in Utopian peace? Were the Nordic vikings warm and fuzzy inside as well as on the outside with their beards and animal skins?
We are bad by nature with or without a religion or a certain religion. That was my basic point.You will find a crazy person (like me) in the pulpit or in the porn room. One athiest, one not, or the other way around. We can't know and can't judge because faith is personal and religion is used by the good and bad, but they (religions and the religious) are all lumped together. Would the nice upstanding gay couple who adopted 2 children who needed a home feel comfortable being lumped in with the naked BDSM gay pride paraders dangling down the streets of a Pride parade in Canada or Australia? In the same way many people of quiet, earnest, and serious faith would not want to be lumped in with a lunatic screaming fire and brimstone on a street corner or who makes (and hords) millions from his TV program and says it's God's blessing on him/her.
-Oh, but this is really a different tangent.
We could go on and talk about Russia's efforts at Communism/Socialism and what happened after Perestroika and Glasnost when the star & sickle's fell. Greed run rampant. Child prostitution run amok. Why did they not learn from their socialist and secular humanist teachings? tsk tsk. Because, they were hungry and human....
The OP video implied that we would be better w/o the pain in the butt relgions around us. My point is we will fight and make war and hate, no matter what. It's in our nature b/c we're human. If you removed religion, something else as the "tool" would simply replace it.
By the way, the taxes point- that's forced on you and it will only drive us back to the point anyway of what were the roots for movements to get the masses to share their wealth. Our Christian patchwork heritage vs Socialism? - another tangent.
I also know that Japan - a secular society- with it's culture as it's religion, gives A LOT. But, again, political -isms, organizations and culture as the binding and the oil to organize in lieu of relgion is another tangent.... Again, where there is no relgion- SOMETHING that imitates it will take its place.
So, here's a sincere and unsarcastic question:
What are the favorite and best nonreligious humanitarian charaties that atheists and secular humanists trust and like to give to?
(Of COURSE I know they give. Of COURSE there can be good outside of religion or culture, but it is far more fickle and tenuous because there is less social pressure to keep it stable and consistent. We will never know how to quantify who gives more or more saintly- in this competition of who is better.)
So, you generous nonreligious folks- Where does your money go besides to welfare to help out your fellow human beings? You may inspire more people to give to them. Oh, and even if that organization is secular TODAY, if it has religious roots it does NOT count.
I'm an atheist and I didnt make it past 3 min of that video because it annoyed the fuck out of me, and calls out for all atheist to bully believers, I dont believe in God but I do respect people who do and in most cases I feel they deserve to be respected, however not people like underwraps who thinks we are heartless bastards who dont help anyone and have no morals, this is what upsets me, people who dont know us judging us, ironically I feel this automatically makes them a "bad christian" because you do not practice what you preach, you judge, you hate, you point....
I'm an atheist and I do charity work, I dont help just kids or battered women I help the elderly, the true forgotten by society, I dont kill, I dont steal, I am faithful to my husband and friends, guess why!? fear of punishment from God? fuck no, I do it because it feels right, because it's fair and respectful, I dont need to fear a God or feel I'm going to hell if I dont "do" enough good....
I'm an atheist and I do charity work, I dont help just kids or battered women I help the elderly, the true forgotten by society, I dont kill, I dont steal, I am faithful to my husband and friends, guess why!? fear of punishment from God? fuck no, I do it because it feels right, because it's fair and respectful, I dont need to fear a God or feel I'm going to hell if I dont "do" enough good....
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lartinos
Guest
If anyone else has a good video to put one up please do. The ones you guys posted are good!
jack, I almost didn't read it at all. I skimmed that b'mom-esque post but got the jist of it. I just had to address some of the craziest points. She trolled me well.
I saw what you wrote. You're still babbling nonsense.
so...everyday normal life for you?
I didn't watch that video.
That is a religious viewpoint. Congratulations, sheep.
I have no doubt at all you could go on...and on, and on, and on...
I agree, the same things would have happened in Russia, regardless of religion or lack thereof. To think the same stuff wouldn't happen here would be a mistake.
So wait...christians are to blame for the fucking high taxes we pay??? Man, I think I'm developing a hate for them.
Shinto and Buddhism are practiced by the majority of japanese people.
LOL, so religious people give due to social pressure? Because their fellow church-goers may be watching? So if a non-religious person gives without the social pressure or intimidation factor, they are giving out of more pure motives? Giving just to give instead of giving in hopes of "storing up treasures in heaven"? Doesn't that make the non-religious person a better person, perhaps?
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don't worry jack, while this may be posted quite some time after my last reply, I assure you not much time was spent on it.
jackangel
New member
it's cool bro. i'm pretty sure she's no troll, she's the real deal. therefore, you are compelled to respond.
i get it.
i saw most of the vid. i remember seeing another vid from the same guy, years ago...he spoke eloquently about islam.
i was a fan of that one. as for this one...although i am not a theist and cannot disagree with much of what he says,
i can't help but think of him as an obnoxious windbag after a while.
it didn't seem as if he acknowledged even some of the good that religion can promote or be associated with. since
the need for religion (or some equivalent) is nearly universal, perhaps even to the extent that it is biologically
programmed by the forces of evolution itself, i'd rather not regard it as he does.
i don't buy into the stories that religion tells, but i do like them. they are endlessly fascinating, and endlessly
tragic as well. although his viewpoints on religion itself are probably close to my own, his attitude towards religious
people probably aren't. i don't think they make the world a better place.
i get it.
i saw most of the vid. i remember seeing another vid from the same guy, years ago...he spoke eloquently about islam.
i was a fan of that one. as for this one...although i am not a theist and cannot disagree with much of what he says,
i can't help but think of him as an obnoxious windbag after a while.
it didn't seem as if he acknowledged even some of the good that religion can promote or be associated with. since
the need for religion (or some equivalent) is nearly universal, perhaps even to the extent that it is biologically
programmed by the forces of evolution itself, i'd rather not regard it as he does.
i don't buy into the stories that religion tells, but i do like them. they are endlessly fascinating, and endlessly
tragic as well. although his viewpoints on religion itself are probably close to my own, his attitude towards religious
people probably aren't. i don't think they make the world a better place.
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lartinos
Guest
I agree with Kirk Cameron. Making that sitcom somehow made him the authority on gawd. Gawd gave him the power.
Underwraps
New member
it's cool bro. i'm pretty sure she's no troll, she's the real deal. therefore, you are compelled to respond.
i get it.
i saw most of the vid. i remember seeing another vid from the same guy, years ago...he spoke eloquently about islam.
i was a fan of that one. as for this one...although i am not a theist and cannot disagree with much of what he says,
i can't help but think of him as an obnoxious windbag after a while.
it didn't seem as if he acknowledged even some of the good that religion can promote or be associated with. since
the need for religion (or some equivalent) is nearly universal, perhaps even to the extent that it is biologically
programmed by the forces of evolution itself, i'd rather not regard it as he does.
i don't buy into the stories that religion tells, but i do like them. they are endlessly fascinating, and endlessly
tragic as well. although his viewpoints on religion itself are probably close to my own, his attitude towards religious
people probably aren't. i don't think they make the world a better place.
So, you didn't read my 2nd post? I don't see what you'd really disagree with in it.
Underwraps
New member
Okay, I'll go point for point. But, for now... again. What humanitarian charities do you non theists like to help out with money or time that are and never were religiously rooted? Help each other out here so you might get your favorite charity some help.
imo it's a good balance to develop both your mental and spiritual sides. Rational thought if allowed to dominate can replace compassion for others. What value are temporary emotional experiences? They are just the the brain reacting to sensory input and when you die it's all lost...thrown away. What is the point? Accept there is no point as I bury myself in one distraction after another to forget that there is no point? lol. A bullet to the head is better than life like that to some people. It might be in our personality lol. It's not "freeing" to me. Logic is cold without the balance of the spiritual heart.
Underwraps
New member
Having fun? I'm glad to be of entertainment. And can always look forward to a good poke here. Someone once said I bring the worst out in people. I think that helps prove my point on inner badness. I didn't put it there- I just brought it out. : )
I am not surprised many of the meanest on here are athiest and many of the nicest aren't. I do admire the directness and boldness and high "D" personality types of all of you on both sides. I'm working on being more direct in the real world. The athiests especially don't give a shit about how they impact people emotionally because they have no soul (literally). They are often kind and generous, but it's fickle. They rarely wear a mask and they are AUTHENTIC. I do admire that.
Notice I'm not using words like "all" or "everyone". Just in general "many". Go ahead you mean meany athiests. I always enjoy how cruel you can get because I love to suffer emotionally. It's a personality trait I'm working on. I was labeled "hystrionic personality disorder" by someone on here. He was not too far off actually- at least on my on-line personality. Why do trollers call out other trollers as trolls? I love the double, triple, quadruple standards on here. The teasing just for the sake of teasing. Purposefully making it hard to tell if a conversation is EVER being taken seriously. Or, pretending to, when long ago it was already a joke. In wariness of this I write with a nonchalance, but I while I really do want to make a point. That probably just comes of crazy. Oh well I am embracing my crazy..
Underwraps
New member
welcome back underwraps!
Hi Cindylou! Yeah, I'm back for a taste. Oh, yeah, CEO. I am that busy and the lure of EF is just too strong to resist sometimes. Religion is my favorite topic because it's been with us since time began- as someone wrote- it's almost like it's in our DNA. I do believe it is and that's why many of our favorite stories/myths/movies are messianic. Some don't even try to hide the parallels like in the Matrix. We love a good messiah story.
Then, there's the architecture, the literature, the politics. It's in everything and influenced almost everything up till now and the athiests are looking forward to a day when they've laid enough nonreligious history down on their own- perhaps after 2/3/4 generations of athiests begatting athiests- they can start to see their OWN culture seperate from anything tainted with religion or Communism. For now with the Xmas lights and music all around it's sooo hard to seperate and live in a world away from it. The "Communists" tried. Hows that working out for them lately?
It's more crazy talk but it would be kind of neat to watch a great giant experiment of a non-Communist society of athiests living together in their own self sufficient town showing the rest of the world how to go about life w/o religion. I wonder what traditions they'd create? What songs would they sing? What art? (Of course they would have these things- they're HUMAN!- lest this be taken as a comment saying only the religious create these things. Sheesh.) If you're taking a lot of what I've written the wrong way then it's my fault.
Underwraps
New member
In a homo kinda way? Get off me girl! j/k I wuv you too Cindy! And you know why? Because you are a human being and then after that, because you are a WONDERFUL human being. : )
Underwraps
New member
it's cool bro. i'm pretty sure she's no troll, she's the real deal. therefore, you are compelled to respond.
i get it.
Real deal of what? I think you should read someone's post thoroughly if you're going to make shots. Sorry their long, but at least have the courtesy to read them if you're going to deride them. CEO is going point for point and I didn't so I'm giving him the courtesy of doing it too.
Underwraps
New member
A new question: Do religious do gooders gravitate more to social work/teaching more than athiests? - Another one we can't quantify.
Do you know of many athiest social workers (excluding Planned Parenthood clinics) or teachers of elementary/primary to secondary/higher education (excluding university)? Here's another implication people will hate so I am asking you to give me some examples and inspiration for my ignorant mind.
It seems the K-12 grades have very few athiest teachers (many more likely agnostic). My guess is athiests can't really come "out" as athiest staff in the younger grades because there are so many religious k-12 teachers and ....parents. Hard numbers would help, but we'll never really know. So, do you know of many vs religious teachers? I imagine many of the science teachers may be athiest.
Do you know of many athiest social workers (excluding Planned Parenthood clinics) or teachers of elementary/primary to secondary/higher education (excluding university)? Here's another implication people will hate so I am asking you to give me some examples and inspiration for my ignorant mind.
It seems the K-12 grades have very few athiest teachers (many more likely agnostic). My guess is athiests can't really come "out" as athiest staff in the younger grades because there are so many religious k-12 teachers and ....parents. Hard numbers would help, but we'll never really know. So, do you know of many vs religious teachers? I imagine many of the science teachers may be athiest.
Now there's a man who has some very definite, and articulate, opinions on dogmatic religion.
Kind of have to feel sorry for anyone who has never had a transcendent spiritual experience, though.
That being said, personally I believe it's rude to disrespect someone because you disagree with their philosophy, but I had to go through my whole "hating on organized religion" phase before I got here, and I still have my moments when I get frustrated with dogma and blind faith.
Kind of have to feel sorry for anyone who has never had a transcendent spiritual experience, though.
That being said, personally I believe it's rude to disrespect someone because you disagree with their philosophy, but I had to go through my whole "hating on organized religion" phase before I got here, and I still have my moments when I get frustrated with dogma and blind faith.
You don't know how many of them are atheists any more than you know how many of them are pagans/witches/wiccans/heathens.
I shit you not, virtually everyone I know in the pagan community is either in healthcare (usually nursing or EMT, also including social work), teaches, is in computers or art. I know several very highly placed individuals who would never dream of allowing their spiritual practices to become common knowledge among their professional peers.
I think most people, especially atheists would almost have to come through an anti-Christian phase. The hypocrisy of its followers and the people killed for Christianity.... the wars... You could almost call it "evil" if an atheist could come up w/ a logical defense of the concept of evil. lol!
digimon7068
New member
personally, i've strayed way too far way too many times from many of the values that i was taught in my formative years...i don't feel like i have enough virtue to be any sort of role model for the any community...at this point in my life, i try to love my wife as much as i can, as best as i can, and i try to be a good role model for my kids 
Underwraps
New member
Yes, addressing MM's topic. Notice I did not say Christian vs athiest. On the typic of religion there are many concentric circles. God or no God. Or Spirit creator vs no spirits at all, then the break down into the various spiritual beliefs. This was never a topic of J-C religion vs atheism though some wanted to see that through that lens. Yes, many Wiccans would have to stay undercover b/c of the J-C "ultras" among parents and staff. But, at least Wiccans are in thier own spiritual circle vs completely athiest and that influences their personal choices and desire to help others. They strive for spiritual connectedness and community and help towards that end.
Here's another point on the point of religion as a tool used for good and bad. There are many athiests and non-J-C believers PRETENDING to be believers to use the power (think Catholic priest pedophiles for example etc....), but you will rarely if EVER see some kind of spiritual/religious believer pretending to be ATHIEST unless it's to avoid persecution in a "Communist" country like former USSR/China. Why? Simple. What power is their in an unorganized athiest community and if it is organized under a political thought like Communism, then there's reverse persecution. It's always about power on the grand scale.
Here's another point on the point of religion as a tool used for good and bad. There are many athiests and non-J-C believers PRETENDING to be believers to use the power (think Catholic priest pedophiles for example etc....), but you will rarely if EVER see some kind of spiritual/religious believer pretending to be ATHIEST unless it's to avoid persecution in a "Communist" country like former USSR/China. Why? Simple. What power is their in an unorganized athiest community and if it is organized under a political thought like Communism, then there's reverse persecution. It's always about power on the grand scale.
No you don't because there is no such fucking thing its all in your head or a product of drugs.
It's a bit short-sighted to be so dismissive.
There is such a thing as aesthetic arrest, or a sovereign wonder, which can have natural, physiological manifestations. So, I guess it depends on your definition of a transcendent experience.
Are you on crack or do you live in backwoods kentucky? Your pulling these delusions out of your ass or personal life experiences? I would say Christian teachers would be a minority; many claim to be agnostic/atheist (and agnostics are atheists who just haven't gotten the balls to use the term atheist).
And I love how you fit in the exclusion to your question "excluding universities" because anyone with a brain on top of their shoulders who has received a decent education and taken the time to look at both sides of the argument realizes that religion as a whole is an outdated coping mechanism and is complete fucking bull shit.
Well, to be completely honest, the "alternative spiritual" community (for lack of a better word) is renowned, even throughout itself, for it's absolute lack of organization. The running joke is that trying to get a bunch of pagans together to do anything is like herding cats.
Solitary practitioners who keep their heads down and spend their entire spiritual life never meeting another pagan person face to face is very common. I'm weird and belong to an unusual tradition. A lot of us are public and "out."
Usually a culture takes on religion and that is how people identify/unite. Communism became the cultural identity of the people and then it started acting just like all bad religions do.
I don't think theism or atheism are either good or bad, you gravitate to where you need to be and thankfully we live in and country and such times that you don't have to follow someone else's rules if they don't resonate with you. But really, people don't need religion to be good (I know many good, kind atheists, actually kinder than some christians because you've got christians who'll go "God will provide" whereas the atheists figure "There ain't no God so we need to take care of each other"). People need/need to learn compassion and empathy, they need to develop a moral/ethical compass and have a sense of community. Religion provides all of that in a one stop shop, so to speak, and takes care of those who don't want to play nice just for the sake of being nice by coercion through fear (i.e., be nice or you'll burn in hell).
No its called being a realist.
Why should I care about others? Why should I love other people? How can I love people? Should I forgive people? Rational thought without the spiritual mind...you could think about it for so long that each human being becomes throw away peices of flesh.. can you imagine a world where everyone thinks this way? That is the reality I'm supposed to accept even though you can't prove there is no God? How could this be good for humanity? I see a selfishness in humans and the idea that a higher power helps us rise above our human condition is the only reason we have not destroyed ourselves yet. Religion is not a good thing, no. It drives a wedge between us and God...but there is something out there damn it and it's not just in my head...it can't be
Underwraps
New member
A movie called "Peaceful Warrior" gave me a great quote: "Sometimes you have to completely lose your senses in order to come back to them. " : )
Maybe in my rebellion I never really STOPPED believing in a spiritual commander. Perhaps I rebelled b/c I still believed and really wanted to piss 'em off. (I wish our language didn't force us to refer to God as him/her.) Either way, it was my personal journey and how I came here was when I was in the apex of my remorse and thought this anything-goes forum would not dish much judgement, but I still DID get some - more than my own spiritual community! That was surpising. Some were athiest, some weren't. Most were just teasing, but some got a quite harsh.
I found that there's a sin hierarchy even in the nonreligious world. Cheaters, for example, still fall below former drug addicts and drug dealers for some here, because they broke a human promise vs a law. They steal people and bodies vs things like money and drugs. They use the drug of another person's body vs an inanimate liquid or powder.
So, athiests make and choose for themselves their rules and moral codes out of thin air (some taking from universal mores and morals) and they hold themselves to it b/c it "feels right"- which is great! But, what gets me is when they hold others to THEIR morals and pass judgement. Btw, for some, sex with little boys "feels right".
Still, I thought that moral judgement was strictly the penchant of do gooder holier than though annoying Christians/Muslim? I guess not. Humans are humans- surprise surprise.
Most of us try to find balance far from any extreme. Anyone athiest or of a religion hates the EXTREMISTS of their camp like my example of nice gay monogamous couples who adopt hard to place kids vs SM naked paraders.
I think we can all agree on this- exept the extremists.
jackangel
New member
no, it's not worth it. since CEO addressed many of your points directly, i read some of your statements through his responses.
when you say that atheists are useless or to society, it stands out. perhaps you don't mean that literally, and perhaps you have other reasonable points, but it's enough to shut me down.
i think you're interested in bringing up questions, expressing your not-set-in-stone opinions, sparking some debate, etc...as opposed to merely handing down absolute/crazy viewpoints.
that's fine, but i have my own filter for deciding who is intelligent, articulate, perhaps even wise. someone who chooses his words with a little care. all others = filtered out. that includes 99% of people here. i don't have the answers, and i'm not particularly interested in considering the thoughts of others who clearly don't have them either.
this is all verbal/mental masturbation anyway. perhaps not for you? if you take your discussion here and use it as a basis for seeking further in your own life, maybe even changing your thoughts/words/actions...then it's constructive.
otherwise, it's just a way to pass the time. we all like to express ourselves and be recognized in doing so. as for me, i already have more than enough reason to change my life, yet i still haven't. so EF is...whatever.
Honestly, as long as your perceptions of the world sit well with you, yippeee!
There's simply too many things in the world that are completely ridiculously miraculous and beautiful for no reason other than the fact of BEING beautiful that I can dismiss it all as a huge cosmic accident.
You can take it on a superficial level, like did you ever think how many butterfly species there are? I looked it up, 28,000. Think about it. Each species different and beautiful but really, do we need THAT many damned different types of butterflies? Or what about snowflakes? Is there any reason why snowflakes should be pretty? Or sunsets? But they are and here we are, able to go ooooh and aaaah over them. Able to appreciate them, unlike any other species on this planet (to the best of our knowledge).
Or take it on another level, look at all the geometry in the universe, things like fractals and the golden ratio, mathematics found not just on our planet from the microscopic on up, but also on a universal level.
Purely from a realistic perspective, I simply do not believe there could be that many coincidences.
I love that quote
Oh well just to warn you I'm a rabid hate filled Christian Jesus freak bible thumping robot
Underwraps
New member
Yes, I can see Wicca as like herding cats, but you still have an extensive "outreach" through books and videos and there can be groups as you say. And, you live by your own natural laws- much like Shinto I imagine. And there seems interest in studying what you believe in. (I didn't want to get into Japan's spiritual dilemna with CEO- too complicated.)
I wish for athiests that they can someday have a bubble to live in where they can prove their ideas of good and right and morals come from themselves and not from outside influences (religious and philosophical) and that they could enjoy life and the arts completely seperate from those who create them from reliously influenced culture. (Keep in mind what I write is in reaction to the OP video and not to "moderate athiests". )
What I'm trying to say is, yes of course athiest can be good, just, kind people, but they are still part of us and influenced by our culture which does not take much to step backwards a bit and see religious influence because we are not yet that much evolved from religious dependence and influence. I guess it's the arrogance of being above and outside of us as one mass of human stew with our religious past and mistakes where no carrot or potato can claim to not be touched and flavored by the other.
Another question on top of the one STILL unanswered about trustworthy humanitarian NONreligiously based charities. Who are some good athiest artists, especially musicians who, again, create their own original work UNtainted by anything religiously influenced like the blues, gospel, and Beethoven. Spirtual seeking makes us SOAR as human beings. It's the desire for power and control that degrades the best of our intentions. Don't forget the mask WEARERS! - The worst liars of all who ruin it for everyone.
Underwraps
New member
no, it's not worth it. since CEO addressed many of your points directly, i read some of your statements through his responses.
when you say that atheists are useless or to society, it stands out. perhaps you don't mean that literally, and perhaps you have other reasonable points, but it's enough to shut me down.
OOPS. That was bad semantics on my part. That statement was in reference to the poor, the disabled, etc.. that THEY are useless to society and why should athiests want to keep them around? (Extreme athiests like the OP video- not the moderates. This is now at the end become a discussion on extremists vs. not. )
i think you're interested in bringing up questions, expressing your not-set-in-stone opinions, sparking some debate, etc...as opposed to merely handing down absolute/crazy viewpoints.
that's fine, but i have my own filter for deciding who is intelligent, articulate, perhaps even wise. someone who chooses his words with a little care. all others = filtered out. that includes 99% of people here. i don't have the answers, and i'm not particularly interested in considering the thoughts of others who clearly don't have them either.
+++Fair enough. I was just pounding out something only with half a care. It's hard wanting to take something seriously and then NOT b/c you know others are only teasing.
this is all verbal/mental masturbation anyway. perhaps not for you? if you take your discussion here and use it as a basis for seeking further in your own life, maybe even changing your thoughts/words/actions...then it's constructive.
otherwise, it's just a way to pass the time. we all like to express ourselves and be recognized in doing so. as for me, i already have more than enough reason to change my life, yet i still haven't. so EF is...whatever.
Yup. It is "whatever" and occasionally I indulge in it. You are right, I have left a lot of unaddressed points and walked away from conversations b/c I am still a very sensitive person (the weakness of my personality type) and when I feel I'm letting EF get to me - I choose avoidance. I'm trying to stick this conversation out though as it is my favorite topic. Note I'm not in any other threads at this time.
Cooking up more stuff...below.We are perfectly capable of recognizing "right and wrong" without the intervening of some deity. Religon has people acting the right way alot of the time for the wrong reasons...(i.e "god said that doing this was good and I want to look good in his eyes"). Humanity exists outside of religion and I personally see that since our lives are so insignificant we can at least each do what we can to make the world an easier place to live for each other. Religion has people brainwashed into thinking that we are "born into sin"; and that everything would descend into chaos or anarchy without some set of guidelines. BS...humans are inherently good.
Correct
Actually it is. If someone were to provide the burden of proof as to the existence of a god I would be the first to sign up. It's a nice thought to think that your life isn't a menial insignificant nothing and the belief in a God and an afterlife provide this. People have a hard time accepting that when your dead your dead the Ego in all of us want's us to be able to continue on in some way...enter religion.
Honestly, as long as your perceptions of the world sit well with you, yippeee!
There's simply too many things in the world that are completely ridiculously miraculous and beautiful for no reason other than the fact of BEING beautiful that I can dismiss it all as a huge cosmic accident.
You can take it on a superficial level, like did you ever think how many butterfly species there are? I looked it up, 28,000. Think about it. Each species different and beautiful but really, do we need THAT many damned different types of butterflies? Or what about snowflakes? Is there any reason why snowflakes should be pretty? Or sunsets? But they are and here we are, able to go ooooh and aaaah over them. Able to appreciate them, unlike any other species on this planet (to the best of our knowledge).
Or take it on another level, look at all the geometry in the universe, things like fractals and the golden ratio, mathematics found not just on our planet from the microscopic on up, but also on a universal level.
Purely from a realistic perspective, I simply do not believe there could be that many coincidences.
So because your mind finds intricacies/complexities in nature "pretty" and you can't wrap your mind around the fact that this could have evolved naturally thats proof of a god to you? You don't understand = therefore God. Pathetic.
Underwraps
New member
I love that quote
Oh well just to warn you I'm a rabid hate filled Christian Jesus freak bible thumping robot
LOL. I aspire to be like you but Jesus and I still have issues. I'm probably more Jewish than anything right now. I still can't find a church to believe in.
I thought about universalists or Christian Congregationist- but I'm not ready for my child to have a lesbian preacher and where gay acceptance (not a bad thing) is a big part of the agenda. I just want a church that teaches love in general and is organized enough to get LOVE done.
I see much beauty in the concept of grace. I heard it much of my younger life "blah blah blah" but now finally GET it. I've come to this conclusion- ALL beliefs and religions EXCEPT grace based Christianity have the same path. They may LOOK different because one is Catholic, Muslim, Mormon, Shinto, Hindu, Buddhist, Wicca etc... . Some are more self revealed vs outside revealed. But, the path is the same and they are the majority- you will figure it out for yourself, or you must try according to our rules- either way it's in your power and based on your life choices. ONLY grace based Christianity does NOT believe this at all and that is both it's ARROGANCE and BEAUTY.
That's why we give presents at Christmas- the symbol of a gift unearned, maybe undeserved, but given purely out of love with no expectation other than acknowledgement- and here's where it gets sticky and not so beautiful. We must acknowledge we are sinners (easy enough for me), but that we must now be part of a subculture that is hated for how it's misunderstood and how it often abuses its power or just plain comes off wrong.
I love the messianic Jesus story. It's the greatest hero story- that one would give his life for another to be that "gift" that pays an unpayable price that can only be paid by one as holy as the great spiritual "father". I have issues with the resurrection. It's just too -well- fairytale. But, I get the spiritual MATH. You have a debt more than the one that we owe China, and only China can pay it themselves which equals forgiveness. It can't be paid. I get that.
I have issues that no one can be saved w/o the gospel. To me, humility is the key. A Buddhist who humbles himself before creation and humanity and is humble in all his actions and helps fellow humans GETS IT. A "Christian" who is arrogant even about having "grace" and is PROUD they are in the RIGHT club does NOT. But, I can't judge him/her. I don't know what someone is REALLY doing with their religion in their own head.
The annoying Christian would have the world think the bible was fire and brimstone and come to Jesus only. Humility and helping the poor and helpless are the contant themes overriding and underlining everything else. But, they make it easy for non-J-C people to tear them apart like vultures and its sometimes deserved. So, when I try to point out the organizations and good that Christians do, it's disregarded because only the annoying is an easy target. Again, it's the being "lumped together" issue. An ignorant Christian who only studies what they need to feed their souls, but knows nothing of religious history so they can go tit fo tat in an INTELLECTUAL conversation does not realize how they are perceived. That's why I try to point out that any religion is PERSONAL and we can't judge an entire church on the newbies or sheltered or the fakers.
I feel very much outside of Christians. I don't want to be a sheep as far as the subculture that Christians create. But, I DO get the idea of grace and it really does stand alone among religions. Try to tell a Muslim he basically has the same path as a Buddha- they won't see it b/c of the trappings and the dogma. He must be named Allah and do these practices. It's ALL effort based.
Back to the OP and extremists. I just don't get how the beauty of spirituality can be ignored. They FEED off of the beauty we crazy spiritual people create. Athiests travel the world and take in the wonder of it all- the culture, the arts, the songs, the rituals- and what do they create for US to enjoy and wonder at?
So, AGAIN people, What are the nonreligious charitie and athiest can trust and who are some good athiest musicians? I'm sincerely CURIOUS!
You are consistent in arguing your opinion, but when you resort to the above, your credibility wanes, and people tend to tune out your responses regardless of their merit. Just ask Puddles, I don't believe any of his locks, except for the Packers one.
lol @ humans being inherently good
Underwraps
New member
Well said by a "moderate athiest"? The main point after all the back and forth is extremists of any camp don't help.
Honestly, I don't think true artists are inspired by any dogma. I think they work from a spring of inspiration by living 'in the moment'...or *their* art really wouldn't be relevant to the culture they were born into.
Underwraps
New member
Believing one is spiritual or has a soul does not mean one believes in a particular dogma. There are many nonreligious spiritual people.
They may not name what it is that is inspiring them, but I think most artists acknowlege some kind of soul. Even if our conscience is not eternal or God given, it is who we are and they must sing from and about that right?
Perhaps they can even be the best celebrators of life because they only get one. I knew of a man who was athiest and he died of cancer and he never gave up his belief, to my knowledge anyway. While alive he did a lot and tried to take as much IN as possible. I knew another who took his own life (he was mentally ill and went off meds). He also took IN a lot from life- world traveler and all.
But, what has one inspired athiest created? I'm sure there's a lot. But, what do they sing about? Romantic love? There are many Communist era songs that sing about "the people", but that doesn't count.
Poor athiests. They can't come out as athiest artists or they won't get sales? It would kill their integrity? There's something about reaching upward and outward that inspires us, even if just imagined. I wonder what it would FEEL like for me to listen to an athiest artist. What would be different vs a blues-gospel singer, for example?
irregardless of drug use
Underwraps
New member
Do you have kids? If you do, you know how much redirection you have to give constantly. We are not inherently "eeevil", but we are inherently selfish which is why when a child gives of his/her own volition and "shares" for the first time we celebrate the growth. We must be raised to care for others other than ourselves. For some it becomes intrinsic and they sincerely care, others as "sheep" so they can be securely part of a group. They give so they can receive something too- give and take. I'm oversimplying again. Forced to to make a quick point.
Some of the biggest child abusers are the enablers who don't successfully redirect their kids and they give in to their kids to be liked and to show their love. They give in, spoil, have no bounderies. Their kids rarely end up naturally giving, loving, people. They're usually extremely selfish, self-centered, and they're users. If you are one of them them you won't recognize the fact in this.
Children are only inherently cute and valuable.
Underwraps
New member
You read that or just the first line? See how mean these athiests are? They can hurt souls, because they don't HAVE one.
As for writing in your quote, I suppose I could write in between the quote breaks, but it seems like a pain and I'm not Plat. Can I do it w/o Plat?
javaguru
Banned
underwraps atheists are not all that bad, I know one that is pretty much perfect.
sig material right there...
Underwraps
New member
I finally had a chance to watch these videos and they at least try to convey their beliefs in a more "respectful' manner. So, yes, these would be the voices you'd want to represent "moderate athiest" beliefs. I could have a conversation with these guys although they do over simplify Christianity and it's lack of real morality vs obedience to authority. That's another tangent and Christianity is always the favorite target. But, there are other religions too. The caller wasn't too bright and made himself and easy target.
I did bring up the idea of chaos under athiest morality and they answered it well, but they did admit that they do what is right because of what is right for society of the place and time we are in that there are moral shifts. So, they'd be flexible to the moral shifting.
I'm not going to speak for Christians, this was about religion as the blame for everything in the OP and my point was humans are the blame for everything w/ or w/o religion.
They also did acknowledge that we do not learn in a vacuum that they do take into account all the great philosophers and teachers from 2k years back. That's a sound voice where as hard-core extremist athiests don't give acknowledgement to all of human history and religion BEFORE them.
I could live side by side with NICE athiests like this. Not the one that uses phrasing like "
Ever read any of the old testament? If your fucking god did exist his idea of morality would be a skewed and pathetic one." See, that is just so rude and mean and undiplomatic. Traditional religions when they are at their best vs worst try to teach to get along. Were you taught by atheism to be a rude prick?
Underwraps
New member
In his younger days I heard Kirk Cameron was quite the prick. Must have been when he was athiest.
Actually I hate videos like this. It was funny to watch. An example of how Christianity is such an easy target (and rightly so), but remember. This is not athiesm vs Christianity. Stop using the easy target! This is athiesm blaming religion for the troubles in the world. Yes, it is to blame for the middle east area and there is no end in sight for that. But, there are people of faith or spiritual belief in many forms.
I think the silence must mean agreement: Religion does not cause our problems. It may not help as it's a powerful tool, but it is not the cause. Human beings are the cause.
No close minded individuals like you made me that way.
PS - These guys are what you would consider "extreme" atheists.
Underwraps
New member
Yes, there are bigots from any side. Good reasonable point.
EXACTLY my conclusion. Religion isn't what is wrong with the world...corrupt politicians are not what is wrong with the world I was what was wrong with the world.
Underwraps
New member
I don't need to "believe" in God. I've met gods and goddesses. They are very real, they just exist in a reality that is impossible for most people to perceive with the five senses. If you've ever watched Star Trek, think of the times when they've used the device of people being "out of phase" who couldn't be seen. Kinda like that. You can tune into that realm, it just takes practice. Like any other skill, art, music, dance, you have to practice and learn the basics.
Put it this way, Stephen Hawking said "Evolution has ensured that our brains just aren't equipped to visualise 11 dimensions directly. However, from a purely mathematical point of view it's just as easy to think in 11 dimensions, as it is to think in three or four."
Just because we can't perceive those dimensions, doesn't mean they don't exist.
And you know something, just because you don't like or have respect for religion or spirituality, doesn't give you the right to be patronizingly rude to people who feel otherwise. I accept your decisions and the philosophical and moral choices you have made without insulting your intelligence, I would expect you to extend me the same courtesy. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just saying that, very simply put, I see too many coincidences to believe it's all a giant accident. I see structure, I see a directing intelligence.
And I listened all the way through to what the very nice spoken British gentleman had to say. I admit I cannot disagree that great harm has been done in the name of religion, but also great good. I don't subscribe to conventional religion but I have great respect for many people who do and I have no doubt I know quite a bit about the big monotheistic religions than the average bear. In short, I'm not much for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
The problem lies less with religion and spirituality than with the flaws humans are prey to that causes the ones who are in charge to take advantage of the positions of trust and power the people give them.
Underwraps
New member
Easy cop out. Like the guy in your video said, "Be a REAL man."Take some accountability for your own actions. I did not make you a prick. You were made into one by your experiences. Own your prickness, don't blame it on me and those you disagree with. I'm not mean to you because I see YOU as mean and closeminded in your own way.
Underwraps
New member
No no Cindylou. Your perspective on how you let the world affect you, not you yourself. How does that self affirmation go? You are wonderful and fabulous, and damnit, I LIKE you.
If it were meanies vs not as meanies though a bit silly, then the THEists would WIN on that point alone. Being kind to each other is not necessarily part of "getting along" in the athiest moral code. Don't break laws, don't screw your cousin for 10+ years then go on to screw 100 people in 10 years more are NOT athiest moral codes. I will give them THAT. I brought up a bazaar scenario to make the point that there is more chaos and craziness w/o some sense of connectness to others. That was a weak point. I'll give them THAT.
Still, meanness and bazaaar behavior are still a tad bit more in the athiest camp than the theist camp. They'll never admit that b/c fakers in the spiritual camp belong to us, when really they're one of THEM.
Me being a prick is simply your personal opinion. If what I say offends you thats your problem. I was being sarcastic with my answer but I should have known that you wouldn't have picked that up. So what made you a bitch?
Underwraps
New member
On what basis do you say this? I didn't use cuss words at you. Call me a whiner. A pain in the ass. Bitch is for people like Nan when she gets fired up. I am telling, not dishing. I'm being like your fat balding dudes in your videos. They were nice. They were reasonable.
Never mind. It's the language and culture of the forum. I won't try to change you away from your culture here. Still, that kind of mean ness comes much more easily to an athiest. But, you'll never admit that. Abrasive language is the norm in your mind.
In regards to your atheist charities here are a few:
Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort (Hugely responsible for aid in Haiti)
AHH - Atheists Helping the Homeless (origninally founded in Austin TX)
Livestrong (Lance Armstrongs deal)
American Humanist Association (See Haiti again)
IHEU - International Humanist and Ethical Union
Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort (Hugely responsible for aid in Haiti)
AHH - Atheists Helping the Homeless (origninally founded in Austin TX)
Livestrong (Lance Armstrongs deal)
American Humanist Association (See Haiti again)
IHEU - International Humanist and Ethical Union
There is nothing wrong with using colorful language...and for the record as far as "meanness" goes you were the one who called me a prick initially so don't play the innocent.
Underwraps
New member
Thank you! Now I need athiest musicians list.
And, I sincerely mean thank you. Too bad most on the list I never heard of. That doesn't mean they aren't doing good work. I'm sure they're doing their fair share and working well with religious organizations in the name of getting things DONE, nevermind the differences. I'm sure they don't cuss much at each other either.
Bill Gates is athiest? Bono isn't and THEY get along.
Google is your friend
Underwraps said:
I am pretty sure that they work independently of many of the religious organizations but thats a nice thought. And no if they did interact they probably wouldn't cuss at each other; just as I in real life don't swear much at all and have no problem interacting with theists. Assumptions.
Wow who would have thought that a big bad baby eating atheist could interact with individuals who don't share similar beliefs.
Nope just the ones on the show. That is a hilarious generalization. There are plenty of good hot young intelligent women atheists as well.
jackangel
New member
lol @ underwraps being lazy and not doing some basic research. why bother asking about atheist charitable organizations and musicians?
if you're not merely challenging or making the point that atheists suck, and actually want some answers...go look for a few. these particular questions aren't that hard to resolve. of course, anyone could give 100 examples of organizations, artists, etc...whatever you ask about...and yet, it wouldn't really settle anything.
this is mostly anecdotal information, just like your experiences. it's tempting and easy and normal to extrapolate from the specific to the general, but there's no way to know if your conclusions are accurate.
if you're not merely challenging or making the point that atheists suck, and actually want some answers...go look for a few. these particular questions aren't that hard to resolve. of course, anyone could give 100 examples of organizations, artists, etc...whatever you ask about...and yet, it wouldn't really settle anything.
this is mostly anecdotal information, just like your experiences. it's tempting and easy and normal to extrapolate from the specific to the general, but there's no way to know if your conclusions are accurate.
well said
You're missing the point. You implied atheists cannot make *art*, presumably, because they aren't 'touched by the hand of god'. I implied an artist need not subscribe to any school of belief in order to create a transcendent work of art.
And just because I think yours is a bit of a silly pretense, I'm forced to present you with a tally of artist/atheists whose works you may consider souless.
Wikipedia said:
Stilleto is a prime example.
This is all we really need to glean from this thread....
...and the fact humans are inherently, fat.
This is all we really need to glean from this thread....
...and the fact humans are inherently, fat.
agreed
Underwraps
New member
I actually don't really disagree with you on the topic of anectdotal info. I never said it was fact, but my experience. As for being lazy, I was looking things up while I was away and came across this: Bill Gates is more agnostic, but heavily leaning to science/athiest. I'm not surprised Stilleto is athiest. Here kindness was also fickle. But no disrespect either. She did her mod job for me. Made like I was a pain in her ass, but she did it and I am grateful and she tried to give me advice too.
Bill Gates - Celebrity Atheist List
As silly as it may sounds, athiests are more easily mean than theists, at least on this site and in my anectdotal experiences. Their kindness and patience are fickle.
Remember: Beware the prodigal athiest who hides in sheeps clothing and messes up your view of the theists. A good athiest is honest and authentic like those of you here willing to be upfront about your beliefs. The cowardly athiests/agnostics use religion for their selfish means. Really, if one REALLY believed their religion would they do the crap they do? Nope. They are the mentally ill and the power hungry and the cowards and maybe it's not fair to blame the athiest/agnostics for them either. They are their own isolated problem. Maybe. Okay. Done.
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Underwraps
New member
Thanks. But, per the fact of Bill Gates being on the list for "celebathiests", it shows there's some liberties taken with the labeling of people as "athiests". I think there are many not really card-carrying athiests and many are more agnostic which I think is completely different because in the uncertainty of not knowing for sure, there is a yearning and wanting to know that creates a lotof the beauty. No, you don't need the had of God to create. You are reading too much in that sense in what I'm implying. But, we create a lot from our desire to know and to feel things unknown, unimaginable, mysterious, what have you.
Most on that list I have not heard of and that is not to say they are not good and these days the music industry in a good way is not so record company driven. I've seen Ani de Franco live. She's a spunky- lesbian? Bob Geldof is Irish- Catholic raised and the leader of Live-Aid. I've heard of Oasis. Depressing stuff, but people love it. I'm still looking through them. Can you recommend any of them?
Someday there will be athiest 3 to 4 generations deep. Too bad I won't be around long enough to find out what they will help prove or disprove someday.
Athiests are still meaner than most.
Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah. And there are people more than willing to prove that to me every minute on here. Not you of course.
Klassy
Well, here again, you've assumed too much about me.
For what? I'm confused. They are artists. If you want to know about any of them, I'd suggest you listen, read, or view their work.
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