WSB for non-equipment lifters

[LiftingDukkha]

It seems completely obvious that Westside principles work incredibly well. But it also seems to me that so many of the exercises they use are designed mainly for shirted benches & suited squats. I don't have any problem with anyone else using them, but I'm just wondering: Because Westside works so well, its principles "should" work for anybody, anywhere, no matter what, if they just do the work. So I think it should also work for people who don't use shirts & suits. But wouldn't some of the exercises have to be a little different?

For example, instead of focusing so much "only" on triceps, wouldn't a non-shirt-using bencher want to do more exercises for front delts, pecs, etc?

So what kinds of exercises would someone do if they want to do Westside type routines, but don't use suits or shirts?

Thanks.

 

[Chambewy20]

I don't know what westside template you have used or seen, Upper day is bench variation, tri's, back then shoulders.

Lower is squat or dead variation then low back, glutes and hamstrings.

Equipped versus non equipped, for bench only difference is tucking or not tucking your elbows. Most guys raw bench decreases when they tuck. For squat, possibly not as wide a stance when raw, just depens on what works for you when you free squat.

Don't mistake partial range of motion movements and heavy tricep movements as only being geared towards shirted benchers. Partial ranges of motion concentrates on your sticking points and helps preserve your shoulders as well as using a closer grip in theory strengthens triceps and you'll see a world of difference when you spread your grip out, lessens the distance for your stroke and gives more pop off your chest when using a shirt.

Westside is set up to cater towards three lift competitors for the most part and with that in mind, your shoulders take a beating not only while benching but when the torque occurs when squatting, that's part of the reason for using safety squat bars and 22" cambered bars. Not only do they change the path of the weight and make your body compensate for a different weight range of motion but they are a hell of a lot easier on the shoulders.

Metal Militia is geared towards shirted benchers no doubt but I couldn't do it week in and week out, would beat the shit out of me although they have extremely differing theories in regards to bench. Basically with them, the only way to get better at benching is to bench a lot every week.

 

[LiftingDukkha]

Thanks for that info. Yeah, I guess I was thinking partial movements were more for triceps, etc. But wouldn't movements with deeper ROM also be effective? Camber bench, deep deadlifts (I know in Box Squats they always recommend well-below-parallel squats already).

And what about front delts? I read a long time ago, I think it was Larry Pacifico, believed front delts were the most important muscle for him in benching. I can't believe front delt flyes could be very useful, but are there any other heavier exercises that hit the front delts?

BTW, about shoulders getting trashed in other lifts: I was getting killed by Good Mornings a long time ago. Then I started using some bands, and I found the bands stop the straight bar from rolling up & down my back, which saves my shoulders! So now that's the only way I do Good Mornings any longer...

 

[Chambewy20]

Thanks for that info. Yeah, I guess I was thinking partial movements were more for triceps, etc. But wouldn't movements with deeper ROM also be effective? Camber bench, deep deadlifts (I know in Box Squats they always recommend well-below-parallel squats already).

And what about front delts? I read a long time ago, I think it was Larry Pacifico, believed front delts were the most important muscle for him in benching. I can't believe front delt flyes could be very useful, but are there any other heavier exercises that hit the front delts?

BTW, about shoulders getting trashed in other lifts: I was getting killed by Good Mornings a long time ago. Then I started using some bands, and I found the bands stop the straight bar from rolling up & down my back, which saves my shoulders! So now that's the only way I do Good Mornings any longer...

I personally don't think the benefits of deeper ranges of motion outweigh the possible negative effects so wouldn't recommend but that's just me, speaking more towards pressing movements. Deeper box squats help you hit depth and for some people have a carryover to deadlift but that depends on the person I beleive, worth a try I guess. I do like deadlifting off a block, helps with attaining flexibility, tightness and keeping the shoulders behind the bar.

For delts, i do front plate raises, these... http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=33902&tid=102

for these i use a medium grip, quick pace, 8-10 reps for 3-4 sets, seated DB cleans and then work on rear delts, face pulls, bent over side laterals and pull aparts. I don't personally use a rear delt machine, I can do a lot on it for some reason but it friggin hurts for some reason. So no real heavy exercises for shoulders for me I guess, unless you think 2 35 lb plates for plate raises is heavy, I doubt it though. I get pretty taxxed on my heavy days so usually my shoulders are spent.

I do like banded good mornings, I was getting good at them for a while.

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

I personally don't think the benefits of deeper ranges of motion outweigh the possible negative effects so wouldn't recommend but that's just me, speaking more towards pressing movements. Deeper box squats help you hit depth and for some people have a carryover to deadlift but that depends on the person I beleive, worth a try I guess. I do like deadlifting off a block, helps with attaining flexibility, tightness and keeping the shoulders behind the bar.

For delts, i do front plate raises, these... http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=33902&tid=102

for these i use a medium grip, quick pace, 8-10 reps for 3-4 sets, seated DB cleans and then work on rear delts, face pulls, bent over side laterals and pull aparts. I don't personally use a rear delt machine, I can do a lot on it for some reason but it friggin hurts for some reason. So no real heavy exercises for shoulders for me I guess, unless you think 2 35 lb plates for plate raises is heavy, I doubt it though. I get pretty taxxed on my heavy days so usually my shoulders are spent.

I do like banded good mornings, I was getting good at them for a while.

Good posts....great information.

Post more.

 

[fortunatesun]

I believe Simmons himself recommends going about 5% heavier on your speed work if you're going raw. You're correct that starting strength will gain more importance as opposed to lockout, so anything more than 3-boards is considered useless.

Just from my own personal tangent: I've found paused reps good for the bottom, both on bench and squat. I think dumbells can be used effectively for bench. Chambewy hit the plate raise suggestion for front delts (maybe the best one) but overhead and Bradford presses-also called rainbows- are good. I wouldn't entirely discount triceps work.

I also think it's more important to train the lift itself rather than use the "anything but' approach. You just don't have the extra tool to count on so to me it makes more sense to keep in a ready condition.

 

[the koala]

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/bench_like_a_stripper.htm

a, in my opinion, great article on raw benching by jim wendler,

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/bench_like_a_stripper.htm

a, in my opinion, great article on raw benching by jim wendler,

That is a good article...

 

[silver_shadow]

I don't know what westside template you have used or seen, Upper day is bench variation, tri's, back then shoulders.

Lower is squat or dead variation then low back, glutes and hamstrings.

Equipped versus non equipped, for bench only difference is tucking or not tucking your elbows. Most guys raw bench decreases when they tuck. For squat, possibly not as wide a stance when raw, just depens on what works for you when you free squat.

Don't mistake partial range of motion movements and heavy tricep movements as only being geared towards shirted benchers. Partial ranges of motion concentrates on your sticking points and helps preserve your shoulders as well as using a closer grip in theory strengthens triceps and you'll see a world of difference when you spread your grip out, lessens the distance for your stroke and gives more pop off your chest when using a shirt.

Westside is set up to cater towards three lift competitors for the most part and with that in mind, your shoulders take a beating not only while benching but when the torque occurs when squatting, that's part of the reason for using safety squat bars and 22" cambered bars. Not only do they change the path of the weight and make your body compensate for a different weight range of motion but they are a hell of a lot easier on the shoulders.

Metal Militia is geared towards shirted benchers no doubt but I couldn't do it week in and week out, would beat the shit out of me although they have extremely differing theories in regards to bench. Basically with them, the only way to get better at benching is to bench a lot every week.

sorry if this is a stupid question. are you suggesting then that a lifter shouldn't tuck his elbows in for raw bench? how would you recommend he benches then?

 

[Chambewy20]

Not a stupid question at all, for raw benchers, tucking elbows depends on the person. I got a guy right now with a tremendous raw bench for his weight yet sucks ass with a shirt. He's definately an elbows out bencher and every time we put any weight on his ass, he tends to flare them out.

I personally lean to beleiving for raw guys who never use a shirt and bench elbows out to stick with it. Tucking elbows is supposed to help incorporate your lats but with no shirt on, I think the degree to which your lats are incorporated is dependant upon your grip width, wider means harder to incorporate lats, narrower is easier but more strain on tri's.

I don't know, I bring my hands in when I'm raw to save shoulders but also have fairly strong tri's, but I've worked so hard on my bench form, I can hardly even do inclines without tucking my elbows.

After seeing some Metal Militia stuff, I'm less inclined to tuck my elbows in as drasticly (sp?) as I have in the past but still tuck them to a fair degree.

Help any or totally confused?

 

[silver_shadow]

Not a stupid question at all, for raw benchers, tucking elbows depends on the person. I got a guy right now with a tremendous raw bench for his weight yet sucks ass with a shirt. He's definately an elbows out bencher and every time we put any weight on his ass, he tends to flare them out.

I personally lean to beleiving for raw guys who never use a shirt and bench elbows out to stick with it. Tucking elbows is supposed to help incorporate your lats but with no shirt on, I think the degree to which your lats are incorporated is dependant upon your grip width, wider means harder to incorporate lats, narrower is easier but more strain on tri's.

I don't know, I bring my hands in when I'm raw to save shoulders but also have fairly strong tri's, but I've worked so hard on my bench form, I can hardly even do inclines without tucking my elbows.

After seeing some Metal Militia stuff, I'm less inclined to tuck my elbows in as drasticly (sp?) as I have in the past but still tuck them to a fair degree.

Help any or totally confused?

thanks chambewy, your posts are always informative. right now i bench with a medium grip (a tad wider than shoulder-width) and tuck my elbows in, but then this is what i learnt fairly early so i'm not sure how i'd do with elbows out some more. i guess i'd have to test it out and see if that works for me or if it's a bad idea.

 

[majutsu]

great stuff chewy k

 

[Illuminati]

as long as you don't ignore the bottom end of the lift, then you willl be fine. w/bench, i would do more full range stuff more often

 

[LiftingDukkha]

Thank you for all your replies everybody. This is very informative. I like the Bradford press idea, I will try that! I think I'm on the right track, it looks like the ideas here are fairly similar to what I was thinking about. Thanks, everyone.

 

[Chambewy20]

Keep us updated on the progess chief, this area of the board or most for that matter is a pretty positive place, it's free so take it for what it's worth. Start a journal or something, document what your doing somehow, a lot of folks can give you a lot of insight around here, we've all done it the wrong way, may help you from getting discourage out of that gate......

 

[fortunatesun]

we've all done it the wrong way, may help you from getting discourage out of that gate......

When I think about all the stupid stuff I've done in the gym, well...nevermind.