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Wow, we actually have a science board
- Thread starter redguru
- Start date
beefcake28
New member
Many thanks to the powers that be.redguru said:
TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT
New member
Bill nye da science guy is coo
Thanks George and/or BRR!
We need to work on getting some chemistry, biochemistry, pysiology, and kinesiology guys in here. I'm going to ask a few guys I know from other boards to come here and post a bit.
I'm leaving for the Mayo Clinic in a day or two, so I won't be around much for the next week or so. The nerve damage caused by the last tumor has really hindered parts of my life lately, so I hope to get an answer over there from the best of the best.
Majutsu! Get in here and show EF your knowledge! (He's one of the elite guys here at Elite, just not a C&C type person.)
Yours in science,
We need to work on getting some chemistry, biochemistry, pysiology, and kinesiology guys in here. I'm going to ask a few guys I know from other boards to come here and post a bit.
I'm leaving for the Mayo Clinic in a day or two, so I won't be around much for the next week or so. The nerve damage caused by the last tumor has really hindered parts of my life lately, so I hope to get an answer over there from the best of the best.
Majutsu! Get in here and show EF your knowledge! (He's one of the elite guys here at Elite, just not a C&C type person.)
Yours in science,
traddum said:
Mod choices are RedGuru, Majutsu, and existing mods Stiletto and Sassy (well, the ones I chose, lol). Blutwump, Beefcake and a couple other Plat Members would be good choices as well, but they're relatively new and I don't know them or correspond with them at all, so I don't really know them or their principles.
And, of course, had he had time, Nathan would be the hands-down choice.
hotzie
New member
i just wanna hang out with you guyzsamoth said:Mod choices are RedGuru, Majutsu, and existing mods Stiletto and Sassy (well, the ones I chose, lol). Blutwump, Beefcake and a couple other Plat Members would be good choices as well, but they're relatively new and I don't know them or correspond with them at all, so I don't really know them or their principles.
And, of course, had he had time, Nathan would be the hands-down choice.
hotzie said:i just wanna hang out with you guyz
Dude, you're more than welcome to!!!!!
The previous poster mentioned "mods", hence the post I responded with. Everyone is welcome here! There's just an issue we're currently working with regarding mods (for this forum specifically or in general) and rules, regulations and such for this forum. Like, this is not a bullshit post-whore, karma-whore, number post (ie. Woot and others with their 1/2/3/.../n posts), or worthless three word post (uncontributional; questions/comments are fine and encouraged, just not the "my balls itch" response to a thread discussing quantum chromodynamis, ya know what I mean?) kind of forum.
I just wanted a mostly-serious place for EF'ers to go to discuss matters of science (or, for the Anabolic Board guys, ergogenics) without the C&C or Anabolic Board BS, that's all.
Above everyone else, Majutsu knows the way I would like things run with this forum, hence why I keep mentioning him for moderator powers (in this forum only). The three regular mods of ALL the Platinum Member Boards -- Perk, Bran and ZKaudio -- likely won't have the time (or even care) with what goes on in this forum (well, Bran might, but he's busy being a mod at other places and stuff).
Anyway, you're more than welcome here. We just ask that there's no post-whoring or bullshitesque stuff here, that's all. I'd like to see you (and RR
) in here.
hotzie
New member
lol i promise i wont whore it up in heresamoth said:Dude, you're more than welcome to!!!!!
The previous poster mentioned "mods", hence the post I responded with. Everyone is welcome here! There's just an issue we're currently working with regarding mods (for this forum specifically or in general) and rules, regulations and such for this forum. Like, this is not a bullshit post-whore, karma-whore, number post (ie. Woot and others with their 1/2/3/.../n posts), or worthless three word post (uncontributional; questions/comments are fine and encouraged, just not the "my balls itch" response to a thread discussing quantum chromodynamis, ya know what I mean?) kind of forum.
I just wanted a mostly-serious place for EF'ers to go to discuss matters of science (or, for the Anabolic Board guys, ergogenics) without the C&C or Anabolic Board BS, that's all.
Above everyone else, Majutsu knows the way I would like things run with this forum, hence why I keep mentioning him for moderator powers (in this forum only). The three regular mods of ALL the Platinum Member Boards -- Perk, Bran and ZKaudio -- likely won't have the time (or even care) with what goes on in this forum (well, Bran might, but he's busy being a mod at other places and stuff).
Anyway, you're more than welcome here. We just ask that there's no post-whoring or bullshitesque stuff here, that's all. I'd like to see you (and RR
Note: You and anyone else can feel free to ask "stupid" questions -- this is NOT some uppity, esoteric, genious-only forum for "smart" people by any means. It's just for serious discussion... a place to talk/ask/discuss stuff without it getting ruined or buried in the fast-paced C&C/Ana forums.
Hope that helps!
Yours in Science,
Hope that helps!
Yours in Science,
hotzie said:
LOL, I love C&C and all, but it's very hard to talk about something substantive, or discuss something meaningful or of personal value without it getting f'd up or buried by look-what-I-did-today threads.
So how's RR? I haven't been around much and haven't seen or talked to her in a while...
hotzie
New member
lol at usamoth said:LOL, I love C&C and all, but it's very hard to talk about something substantive, or discuss something meaningful or of personal value without it getting f'd up or buried by look-what-I-did-today threads.
So how's RR? I haven't been around much and haven't seen or talked to her in a while...
she is still fuggin hott , she aint on much though
hotzie said:
There's a med forum here, as well as a BBing chemistry forum. Both are utterly worthless or exist because of 'sponsors'. The med forum has a small amount of good stuff, but not that much. The BBing chemistry board is all about how to mix steroids for homebrew.
That was another reason I wanted a science forum here on ELITE fitness... places like Bluelight make us look both ignorant and pathetic... and they're a rec drug board with many (no offence guys) junkies. And their scientific knowledge and ability to discuss science, physiology, pharmacokinetics and such litterally put us to shame!
hotzie
New member
im goin to checkout bluelight , seems like it may be interestingsamoth said:There's a med forum here, as well as a BBing chemistry forum. Both are utterly worthless or exist because of 'sponsors'. The med forum has a small amount of good stuff, but not that much. The BBing chemistry board is all about how to mix steroids for homebrew.
That was another reason I wanted a science forum here on ELITE fitness... places like Bluelight make us look both ignorant and pathetic... and they're a rec drug board with many (no offence guys) junkies. And their scientific knowledge and ability to discuss science, physiology, pharmacokinetics and such litterally put us to shame!
hotzie said:
Very interesting board. It's technically a "harm-reduction" drug board. It's the EF of rec drug boards... been around for probably near a decade. LOTS, and I mean LOTS of valuable information there. Some BS C&C type stuff as well, of course, but for any drug information, I always go there first.
BTW, you can search without signing up to be a member. No plat-like pay memberships either, just normal memberships. No karma either, lol.
Highly recommended.
hotzie
New member
is it all about X , and bud or all things rec relatedsamoth said:Very interesting board. It's technically a "harm-reduction" drug board. It's the EF of rec drug boards... been around for probably near a decade. LOTS, and I mean LOTS of valuable information there. Some BS C&C type stuff as well, of course, but for any drug information, I always go there first.
BTW, you can search without signing up to be a member. No plat-like pay memberships either, just normal memberships. No karma either, lol.
Highly recommended.
hotzie said:
They have LOTS of different boards, some even regional (e.g. Australia, US, etc.). But they have individual boards on MDMA, Marijuana, and others. Even a steroid board!!!!!!! LOL!
I usually check up on the DB and OD forums ("Drug Basics" and "Other Drugs"), which are the faster-moving, more C&C-type boards that are the most popular. They have an area for non-drug topics as well, like College and University, Second Opinion, Relationships and Sex, etc. However, keep in mind, that it's a rec drug board, so topics all around tend towards that subject, like non-workout and steroid threads here tend to lead to steroid/workout subject matter or jokes (for example, C&C thread, guy crying over breakup, response would be some clomid joke. A kind of thing specific to this forum. Over there, it would be more like a rec drug joke. Just an example to give you an idea. You'd really have to check it out and get the 'feel' of the board's dynamics.)
BTW, it's www.bluelight.nu
I don't recall the change to the .nu reason, but I'm guessing it was because of legality issues (which they have fewer legal issues than EF, so don't worry about that.) due to the subject matter of the board, or maybe because of the regionality differentiation the board's had for some time. I don't recall, and the clonopin tends to screw my memory up quite a bit.
hotzie
New member
yea ive been readin over there and i must say i found the pharm section and im in heaven.samoth said:They have LOTS of different boards, some even regional (e.g. Australia, US, etc.). But they have individual boards on MDMA, Marijuana, and others. Even a steroid board!!!!!!! LOL!
I usually check up on the DB and OD forums ("Drug Basics" and "Other Drugs"), which are the faster-moving, more C&C-type boards that are the most popular. They have an area for non-drug topics as well, like College and University, Second Opinion, Relationships and Sex, etc. However, keep in mind, that it's a rec drug board, so topics all around tend towards that subject, like non-workout and steroid threads here tend to lead to steroid/workout subject matter or jokes (for example, C&C thread, guy crying over breakup, response would be some clomid joke. A kind of thing specific to this forum. Over there, it would be more like a rec drug joke. Just an example to give you an idea. You'd really have to check it out and get the 'feel' of the board's dynamics.)
BTW, it's www.bluelight.nu
I don't recall the change to the .nu reason, but I'm guessing it was because of legality issues (which they have fewer legal issues than EF, so don't worry about that.) due to the subject matter of the board, or maybe because of the regionality differentiation the board's had for some time. I don't recall, and the clonopin tends to screw my memory up quite a bit.
LT3 said:
Seriously, you guys can come here and discuss physiology, biomechanics, ergogenics, chemical formulations of anabolic/androgenic steroids, whatever. The Ana boards are so basic once you've been on them for a while that it's hard to go anywhere to find more "scientific" or specific information, like what's the difference between methandione and methandrostenolone? According to WAR, they're the same thing. But do they have the same chemical formulation? (Rhetorical question, BTW, lol). I tend to use www.chemfinder.com a lot.
redguru
New member
samoth said:Seriously, you guys can come here and discuss physiology, biomechanics, ergogenics, chemical formulations of anabolic/androgenic steroids, whatever. The Ana boards are so basic once you've been on them for a while that it's hard to go anywhere to find more "scientific" or specific information, like what's the difference between methandione and methandrostenolone? According to WAR, they're the same thing. But do they have the same chemical formulation? (Rhetorical question, BTW, lol). I tend to use www.chemfinder.com a lot.
I've been trying to keep up with your conversation. True I haven't seen her in a while either.
I'm glad it's here, might I also suggest abstract mathematics being in play here as well, DED.
Methandrostenolone
1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone [72-63-9]
Synonyms: 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one; 17beta-Hydroxy-17-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one; 1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone; Metandienone; Methandienone; Methandrostenolone;
So yep, they're the same. I just spelled it wrong.
For all you non-steroiders, this chemical is the famous Dianabol. Funny I've heard so many negatives about methyltest, yet dbol IS methyltest, lol.
Damn, Halotestin is used for women in menopause?! ... learn something new every day, lol. [Source: Physicians Drug Handbook, 11 ed., 2005]
1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone [72-63-9]
Synonyms: 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one; 17beta-Hydroxy-17-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one; 1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone; Metandienone; Methandienone; Methandrostenolone;
So yep, they're the same. I just spelled it wrong.
For all you non-steroiders, this chemical is the famous Dianabol. Funny I've heard so many negatives about methyltest, yet dbol IS methyltest, lol.
Damn, Halotestin is used for women in menopause?! ... learn something new every day, lol. [Source: Physicians Drug Handbook, 11 ed., 2005]
hotzie
New member
samoth said:Methandrostenolone
1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone [72-63-9]
Synonyms: 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one; 17beta-Hydroxy-17-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one; 1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone; Metandienone; Methandienone; Methandrostenolone;
So yep, they're the same. I just spelled it wrong.
For all you non-steroiders, this chemical is the famous Dianabol. Funny I've heard so many negatives about methyltest, yet dbol IS methyltest, lol.
Damn, Halotestin is used for women in menopause?! ... learn something new every day, lol. [Source: Physicians Drug Handbook, 11 ed., 2005]
uhavepm
Interesting for those of us with a little knowledge of organic chemistry:
Dbol
C20 H28 O2
Now, look at straight testosterone and compare it with it's various esters. Also note the different chemical formulas, and thus the different chemical makeups of the group of steroids:
Testosterone
C19 H28 O2
Test Cypionate
C27 H40 O3
Test Propionate
C22 H32 O3
Test Enanthate
C26 H40 O3
Well, to me, this is interesting stuff. And you rarely, if ever, see it on the Ana board. What other esters are available for the testosterone molecule? Can we make different types of testosterone esters besides the typical cyp, enan, and prop? [n.b. I'm not referring to making these in a recreational manner or to use -- this is purely scientific and hypothetical, with a possible potential for real-world applications after time.] Hmm... seems AAS's decrease total T4 levels... and T3, along with RBC. It's effect on serum glucose levels, the foundation for the high G-index carb post workout meal, is also interesting.
Also note that 90% of metabolized testosterone is excreted in urine, and 6% in the feces in the form of sulfate and glucuronide conjugates. (Ya won't read THAT on the anabolic board, lol.)(... and no, it lost me too after sulfate with the feces excretion, lol).
Dbol
C20 H28 O2
Now, look at straight testosterone and compare it with it's various esters. Also note the different chemical formulas, and thus the different chemical makeups of the group of steroids:
Testosterone
C19 H28 O2
Test Cypionate
C27 H40 O3
Test Propionate
C22 H32 O3
Test Enanthate
C26 H40 O3
Well, to me, this is interesting stuff. And you rarely, if ever, see it on the Ana board. What other esters are available for the testosterone molecule? Can we make different types of testosterone esters besides the typical cyp, enan, and prop? [n.b. I'm not referring to making these in a recreational manner or to use -- this is purely scientific and hypothetical, with a possible potential for real-world applications after time.] Hmm... seems AAS's decrease total T4 levels... and T3, along with RBC. It's effect on serum glucose levels, the foundation for the high G-index carb post workout meal, is also interesting.
Also note that 90% of metabolized testosterone is excreted in urine, and 6% in the feces in the form of sulfate and glucuronide conjugates. (Ya won't read THAT on the anabolic board, lol.)(... and no, it lost me too after sulfate with the feces excretion, lol).
beefcake28
New member
samoth said:Interesting for those of us with a little knowledge of organic chemistry:
Dbol
C20 H28 O2
Now, look at straight testosterone and compare it with it's various esters. Also note the different chemical formulas, and thus the different chemical makeups of the group of steroids:
Testosterone
C19 H28 O2
Test Cypionate
C27 H40 O3
Test Propionate
C22 H32 O3
Test Enanthate
C26 H40 O3
Well, to me, this is interesting stuff. And you rarely, if ever, see it on the Ana board. What other esters are available for the testosterone molecule? Can we make different types of testosterone esters besides the typical cyp, enan, and prop? [n.b. I'm not referring to making these in a recreational manner or to use -- this is purely scientific and hypothetical, with a possible potential for real-world applications after time.] Hmm... seems AAS's decrease total T4 levels... and T3, along with RBC. It's effect on serum glucose levels, the foundation for the high G-index carb post workout meal, is also interesting.
Also note that 90% of metabolized testosterone is excreted in urine, and 6% in the feces in the form of sulfate and glucuronide conjugates. (Ya won't read THAT on the anabolic board, lol.)(... and no, it lost me too after sulfate with the feces excretion, lol).
Theoretically, you could put any ester you want on there, within reason. It all depends on how long you want it to take for the ester to eventually be removed, therefore "activating" the useful metabolite (a gross oversimplification, I know). The bigger the ester, the longer it takes to trasfer from the muscle to the bloodstream and on to the liver, where the ester can be cleaved, allowing the chemical to become bioavailable... which is why some fomulations (ex: Test Propionate) become active in a matter of days, versus a larger ester (ex: Test Enanthate) which takes a couple of weeks.
A VERY basic overview of the ester formulation:
TESTOSTERONE ESTERS: What they are and how they work
Much of the testosterone that is prescribed for the purposes of hormone therapy is in the form of "esters." An ester is simply a name for a chemical compound that is formed from reaction between a carboxylic acid and an alcohol. A simple chemical diagram of this reaction is shown below in Figure A. Figure B shows the chemical structure of free testosterone as well as two different esters of testosterone.
There are a number of different esters of testosterone, including the commonly prescribed injectables of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate, as well other esters such as acetate, propionate, phenylpropionate, isocaproate, caproate, decanoate, and undecanoate. Each of these different esters is a molecular chain composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms. The main difference between the different esters is how many carbon and hydrogen atoms make up the chain. For example, the propionate ester is composed of 3 carbons, 6 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens, whereas the cypionate ester is composed of 8 carbons, 14 hydrogens, and 2 oxygens.
Esterification of testosterone is done in order to improve the solubility of testosterone in oil, which in turn slows the release of the testosterone from the site at which it enters the body.
Testosterone, in its free, non-esterified form, has poor solubility in either oil or water-- though it can be suspended in water. Non-esterified testosterone is available in an aqueous injectable form with the drug name "Aquaviron." However, this form of testosterone stays active in the body for only a very short period of time (only a matter of hours, which is explained further below). Because of this, it must be injected on a daily basis in order to maintain a continuous level of testosterone in the blood. Therefore it is rarely used for testosterone replacement therapy as an injectable.
Once you have added an ester group to testosterone, it becomes even less soluble in water and more soluble in oil. Additionally, as a general rule, the more carbon atoms there are in an ester, the more soluble the ester is in oil. For example, testosterone propionate (with 3 carbon atoms in the ester group) is less soluble in oil than testosterone cypionate (with 8 carbon atoms in the ester group).
So, the more carbons the ester group has, the more soluble in oil it becomes, and the less soluble in water. The term for this ratio between oil and water solubility is called the "partition coefficient"-- the higher the solubility in oil, the higher the partition coefficient.
The partition coefficient of the ester in question is important because is effects how long the drug itself stays in the system. If the testosterone transfers too quickly from the oil to the blood, the result is a sudden spike in testosterone which then rapidly drops once the dose has been used up. In the example of free testosterone injected into the muscle from a water suspension (as in Aquiviron, mentioned above), the testosterone is essentially immediately available to the bloodstream due to its low partition coefficient, and thus there is an immediate spike of testosterone which is used up quickly in the body.
Testosterone cypionate, on the other hand, has a high partition coefficient. When injected into the muscle, the drug remains in its esterified form in a deposit in the muscle tissue. From there, it will slowly enter the circulation as it is picked up in small quantities by the blood. Once the esterified testosterone is brought into the blood stream, "esterase enzymes" cleave off the ester chain in a process known as "hydrolization," thus leaving the testosterone in its free form to perform its various actions and effects.
When people speak of whether a particular testosterone ester is "fast acting" or "slow acting," they are usually referring to the partition coefficient/solubility in oil. As described above, esters with more carbon atoms will be more soluble in oil-- they are often referred to as "slow-acting" esters (they stay active in the system longer). Esters that are less soluble in oil are often referred to as "fast-acting" forms of testosterone, referring to the fact that they are more quickly available and used up in the blood stream.
For FTMs who are using injectable testosterone, slow-acting esters tend to be preferred, as fewer injections are needed over time to keep the blood levels of T reasonably constant. Testosterone enanthate (7 carbons) and testosterone cypionate (8 carbons) both take about 8-10 days to be fully released in the system, and so they are typically injected once every 7-14 days. Testosterone propionate (3 carbons) takes about 3-4 days to be fully released in the system, and must be injected in smaller doses at least weekly if not twice weekly. For this reason it is not often prescribed for FTMs in transition.
http://web.mit.edu/hudson/www/ttypes.html#esters
beefcake28
New member
I'm thinking we should just start a new thread about testosterone esters, and then this info won't be buried in this thread... and people can add to it easier.
LT3 said:
I'm guessing you're from the Ana board, as I haven't seen you in C&C that I recall.
Feel free to have some of the Ana board guys come over here if they're interested, want to help, or just have questions.
[Mental Note:] I need to promulgate a NO FLAMING clause to the board rules, 'cause I can see that possibly becoming an issue with some stuff.
But yeah, I know there's some smart guys over on the Ana board... they're just overrun by the... umm... less smart guys...
LT3
New member
LoL, agreed. and yes im from the ana board. to be honest im really happy there is a science board and not just, how to do gear, sort of thing. but how does it work, when, why, etc. also ive been to the bbing chemistry board and its pretty much an extension of the ana board. so im looking forward to the discussions in this board. currently im a kine student, but im switching my major to eng. lit. but im still very interested in the science of bbing and just science in general, so like i said, im glad this board is up and really looking forward to the discussion.
Also i second the no flaming policy.
beefcake28
New member
samoth said:Methandrostenolone
1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone [72-63-9]
Synonyms: 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one; 17beta-Hydroxy-17-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one; 1-Dehydro-17a-methyltestosterone; Metandienone; Methandienone; Methandrostenolone;
So yep, they're the same. I just spelled it wrong.
For all you non-steroiders, this chemical is the famous Dianabol. Funny I've heard so many negatives about methyltest, yet dbol IS methyltest, lol.
Damn, Halotestin is used for women in menopause?! ... learn something new every day, lol. [Source: Physicians Drug Handbook, 11 ed., 2005]
Actually, they are not the same. Practically identical, with the exception of one double bond....
Methyltestosterone: (Testosterone + 17alpha methyl group)
C20H30O2
M.W. = 302.4558
Methandrostenolone: (Testosterone + c 1-2 double bond; 17alpha methyl group)
C20H28O2
M.W. = 300.44
http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com
lol do not... I repeat do not get on their mailing list. They mail you stuff multiple times a day.samoth said:Seriously, you guys can come here and discuss physiology, biomechanics, ergogenics, chemical formulations of anabolic/androgenic steroids, whatever. The Ana boards are so basic once you've been on them for a while that it's hard to go anywhere to find more "scientific" or specific information, like what's the difference between methandione and methandrostenolone? According to WAR, they're the same thing. But do they have the same chemical formulation? (Rhetorical question, BTW, lol). I tend to use www.chemfinder.com a lot.
gjohnson5
New member
The only science Stiletto knows is the science of "poop"...
samoth said:Mod choices are RedGuru, Majutsu, and existing mods Stiletto and Sassy (well, the ones I chose, lol). Blutwump, Beefcake and a couple other Plat Members would be good choices as well, but they're relatively new and I don't know them or correspond with them at all, so I don't really know them or their principles.
And, of course, had he had time, Nathan would be the hands-down choice.
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