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workout frequency when cycling??

Wow. Great thread here. I didn't click it earlier b/c I thought cycling meant bicycling. LoL

People get pissed w/ the constant 5x5 recommendations, but honestly, IMHO, it's the best thing you can do for your lifting career regardless of your goals b/c it TEACHES you programming and you LEARN how the variables work and interact. That ALONE is worth the price of admission. There are other ways to learn it of course, but the 5x5 as spelled out by Starr or on Cow's geocities site is idiot-proof.

Shadow: don't know if it matters, but I train each muscle directly probably 2-3x/wk depending on the muscle. Legs get hit every session.
 
Protobuilder said:
Shadow: don't know if it matters, but I train each muscle directly probably 2-3x/wk depending on the muscle. Legs get hit every session.

In all seriousness.......if you take 5 days off....and then go to a program of one direct hit per week...I can almost guarantee a jump in strength and size.

I used to train just like you - 2-3 per week...and we have similar pre-workout physiques.


Try it for 4 weeks
 
Maybe I"ll take you up on that at some point. I"m not completely adverse to it (well, OK, I probably am. LoL). A guy I know and respect swapped back and forth between traditional strength training and bodybuilding/once-a-week stuff and made good progress. I think it could work well, depending on your goals.
 
The Shadow said:
In all seriousness.......if you take 5 days off....and then go to a program of one direct hit per week...I can almost guarantee a jump in strength and size.

I used to train just like you - 2-3 per week...and we have similar pre-workout physiques.


Try it for 4 weeks
Actually, what's going on there is programming and load variation just through a single variable. Typically when someone cuts frequency like that it is almost certain that workload is decreased (think 5x5, no one is doing 15 sets of squats in one day and that's why it gets spread to increase workload). Generally this type of change is made by someone when they reach a plateau and need to change something. What's happened at the plateau is that workload has been held constant but progress has ceased which tends to mean guys are pushing hard for that extra rep or another weight increase and are getting hammered.

All of a sudden they drop workload using simple frequency as a proxy and WHAM - you deload and get the delayed adaptation coming back bigger and stronger. This is exactly the mechanism used by Arthur Jones in the 1970s to promote HIT where he'd take a highly trained bodybuilder, rest him, and switch to a much lower workload for a period. All of a sudden the guy's strength levels shoot up and you start seeing growth. Of course, Jones then takes credit for all the sudden growth but in reality it was the previous higher workload state that was the stimulus and Jones resting them that allowed for adaptation (welcome to dual factor theory in action and the rebound). The point I make is that if you understand the relationships this can be done more intelligently and you understand why this is happening and what changes to make short term (this is periodization) rather than believing you've discovered a supperior long term strategy, changing your workouts and then wondering where those seemingly quick gains went after 4-6 weeks.

Incidentally, this was the same shit Mentzer pointed out and promoted in the early 1990s that got everyone down to 1x per week splits. Previous to that the 3on/1off split with 2x per week frequency (also AM/PM sessions at times for some) were fairly common in BBing. He pointed out what everyone knew, that if you are well trained and take some time off ,you frequently come back stronger and get bigger more easily enjoying a sudden spurt. His answer was that training was too volumous and too frequent so it should be unilaterally reduced at all times for a long sustainable linear model (which was obviously supperior because look at the short term gains people were dependably experienceing after a period of lower volume and frequency). This is when the whole "overtraining" thing really got a kick in the butt and it produced the more common workouts you see today of 1x per week frequency and a tendancy to lower volume and failure (believe me, when HIT came out and argued against Volume or HVT, those workouts looked nothing like today, it's just that modern HITters have no frame of reference for what was going on in the 1970s marathon pump sessions so anything and everything is HVT to them if it isn't stamped as HIT - fucking retarded).

Now in the 1970s, that whole lower frequency, minimal volume, failure as stimulus thing made some scientific sense in the Western 70's understanding of adaptation along with some logic and philosophy (remember great logic can be build off false or misunderstood premises so garbage in = garbage out). But we've known for a long time it's wrong as balls, and better understanding of fitness/fatigue allowed us to explain why that old model broke down so dependably and why delayed adaptation occured. That said, it is freaking criminal that Mentzer was able to come out in the early 1990s and using the same 20 year old retired science pull the wool over the entire commercial fitness community with that crap (this is what total dependence on escalating drug dosages and "it's 90% diet" get you - ignorant). But that's basically what happened as concepts of workload, fatigue, and overtraining are only now starting to be better understood by the public.

EDIT: the periodized 5x5 model on my site is setup specifically to ellicit this response and thereby teach people about workload variation and planning (blocks of higher and lower workload where the fatigue relationship and delayed adaptation are purposedly exploited). This is basically the core mechanism used when basic linear progress in one's lifts becomes a non-reality. It isn't set in stone and certainly there are a lot of ways to do it, but it's a good way and it's intuitively easy to understand and grasp because it has few moving parts (and that's what makes it probably the best template available at teaching this concept - I certainly haven't found any better and it was neither a hasty nor arbitary decision on my part). Even Kelly Baggett used the same example, which incidentally was a word for word copy of one of my old writeups a few years ago (and all are taken directly from Glenn and his work so that's where the credit goes).
 
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Protobuilder said:
Wow. Great thread here. I didn't click it earlier b/c I thought cycling meant bicycling. LoL

People get pissed w/ the constant 5x5 recommendations, but honestly, IMHO, it's the best thing you can do for your lifting career regardless of your goals b/c it TEACHES you programming and you LEARN how the variables work and interact. That ALONE is worth the price of admission. There are other ways to learn it of course, but the 5x5 as spelled out by Starr or on Cow's geocities site is idiot-proof.

Shadow: don't know if it matters, but I train each muscle directly probably 2-3x/wk depending on the muscle. Legs get hit every session.

What's wrong with bikes? Your RUDE!!! :p
 
I have tried repeatedly to go into the gym and do "conditioning workouts" or "bodybuilding workouts"... pretty much recovery stuff and de-stressing stuff - no full lifts/variations, pulls, or squats.

No happy...

The workouts are just so boring and retarded. Last time I went in for this "workout"...

Snatch Grip BTN Press 5x5
Bent Over Rows 5x5
RDL 5x5
Chinups 5x5
Back extension 3x10
Dips 3x10
Hamstring curls 3x10
Barbell curls (in the curling rack, of course)

I was done in 45 minutes and it felt like I was masturbating by the end.

No pulls, no squats = no workout
 
Madcow2 said:
Well the issue there is "what do they mean by intensity" - typically it's training to failure and snarling like a wolverine. Psyching has a pronounced effect on the nervous system and even without lifting any weights at all can impact fatigue very significantly (think about increased levels of stress). I will say that this is well known and people specifically working up to a daily max in OL will specify lifting to an "unpsyched max". I've done my own tinkering and it blew me away how much of an impact it has on levels of fatigue over time.
i'm refering to intensity the same way - i meant that i've heard guys say to lift light for upto 2mths after a cycle!
 
super_rice said:
I have tried repeatedly to go into the gym and do "conditioning workouts" or "bodybuilding workouts"... pretty much recovery stuff and de-stressing stuff - no full lifts/variations, pulls, or squats.

No happy...

The workouts are just so boring and retarded. Last time I went in for this "workout"...

Snatch Grip BTN Press 5x5
Bent Over Rows 5x5
RDL 5x5
Chinups 5x5
Back extension 3x10
Dips 3x10
Hamstring curls 3x10
Barbell curls (in the curling rack, of course)

I was done in 45 minutes and it felt like I was masturbating by the end.

No pulls, no squats = no workout

Back in college sometimes we'd head over to the large student facility with the express purpose of doing a fufu workout and hanging around with the girls (and sadly the fufu pump boys with their bandanas and new tribal band tatoos - probably dating myself) in the machine and nontraining area i.e. no racks or barbells - they were in another room separated by a wall. These workouts had no purpose other than girls, fun, and entertainment. Okay, possibly making fun of the fufu pump boys and their mega drop sets of curls requiring 3 guys.

I tell you, every single time we tried to do this (and there were a number of attempts over the years), we'd last about 10-15 minutes with 25 being the record, look at each other, sigh, and head to the racks. As excited as we were, and as hot as the girls were, it just sucked balls. Invariably after the first set of cleans or pulls, we'd have a smile on our faces again - it was like coming back into the light after committing horrible sin. I still laugh about this. Most college guys would do anything for trim, but this was so counter to what we loved and why we lifted we just couldn't gut it out.

I'm not espousing any perfect way to train and obviously a lot of things work. But for me, if I'm not squatting or pulling in some fashion - I won't go.
 
I was going to do a little bit of extended recovery work this week, so I had the workouts split into presses on 2 days and squats/pulls on another 2 days......and I feel mildly gay on the days I don't squat or pull, so I may have to adjust that.....when you get conditioned to squats/pulls/presses on one day multiple times a week, sometimes squats 2 days in a row, it is tough to feel like you're doing anything at the gym when you cut back.

Acually, SR, the sample workout you listed would be hardcore for most gym goers, lol.....hamstring curls bring up the gay factor, lol, but seriously, compared to what i see most people doing, that is hardcore as hell.

I do dumb things to look at girls sometimes too......I like an 'extra day' to come in and curl so my arms get swollen, then I will go for a stroll on the treadmill or do some HIIT on Saturday at 11 AM, lol.
 
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