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Wish someone could offer me proof of God's existance
- Thread starter saint808
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cyrex
New member
heheLestat said:
no I don't think the bible is a great way for Christians to determine what God wants them to do because much of it is based on interpretation, and also despite what some may believe HUMANS fucking wrote the bible. The catholic church have chucked a few books from the bible in the last 1500 years and there are a number of other PROVEN issues with the bible. Although I do think it's a great history book and provides some sound guidelines for living a 'good life'
10 commandments are pretty good (at least most of them)
anyways I'm very close to your side of things when it comes to this debate, I just don't like to see people defend their position with less than adaquate comments and arguments, not that yours are less than adaquate, but the ones I'm addressing could be beefed up ;-)
cyrex
New member
the ideal Christian will pray to God not to physically do something or actually make a difference in the world, but to give strength, wisdom, guidance, and those types of things because if there is a supreme being there are only
2 logical situations:
A) He created everything and set out a path in the time-space continuum that must and will happen (destiny). If this is the case, then praying to God to make a change is questioning his authority which is just plain stupid. In this situation prayer is purely communication but you can't help what you do because "God made you do it" anyway lol
B) He initiated the big bang (or however the known space-time continuum and the universe began) with a set of rules (we call this physics) that must be followed. Those rules have caused the chain of events that have led up to NOW. This includes evolution, and every other scientifically proven phenomenon that has been questioned by religion in the past. He is not actively judgemental in our known world and is not causing shit to happen as a reward (flourishing economies, crops, etc) or punishment (natural disasters, deaths, terrorism, etc). All of these things just fall within the rules (Physics, Mathematics, or just science in general) that He created. There was a dude that lived 2k years ago named Jesus from Nazerath that was a Jew and was an ambassedor for God. He did not perform any miracles that we could not perform now. Magic tricks, sly lessons, manipulation of cutting edge science, etc could easily explain the beginnings of the 'miracles'. Just like Socrates, he was outcasted by many and was killed for being ahead of his time. He did have followers who all interpreted what they experienced slightly differently and interpreted it using what they knew about religion then (much more mystical). This went into something called the Bible. Once this happened Jesus became much more than the simple man that he was into something much bigger because of his follower's writings.
Now the flaw in situation B is that if God actually does not interact with the world after he initiated its beginning, then how does man know about God? Quite simple:
1) We don't 'Know', some believe which is a piece of information someone holds to be true without logical proof
2) He simply could have set down some specific rules (We still call this Physics, Mathematics, Science . . .) that say "For an andvanced brain that has a state of consciousness, the conscious being should tend to wonder about the beginnings and endings of their lives and what controls it. This can be used as a mechanism for many things such as comfort, to keep the species alive (will to live), etc)"
Anyways I could go on forever but let me get to what I do believe and what I lean towards:
I do believe that there is a psychological need for humans (and possibly ever other species) to want to have meaning to life. A simple way to explain this that is very difficult to refute is a supreme being(s) that interacts with the world. Good is caused by God bad is caused by Satan. This makes people feel good. There is a natural psychological tendancy for us to want to feel good so this all fits nicely. The idea of having to answer for your actions after you die is GREAT at getting people to be 'good'. People tend to not do things like rape, murder, lie, and do other shady ass things when they truely believe that they will have to answer for their actions later on with a penalty of eternal suffering. Of course this doesn't work for everyone, but it does help. It's also comforting for people to think that they are special. "God made man to watch over the world". Kinda cool to think that we are really second in command when it comes to the world . . . All of these things a great. ESPECIALLY for the ignorant.
I'm not saying that religious people are ignorant. I'm just saying that relgion is extremely convienient for the ignorant, because it requires no thought whatsoever to become a christian, muslim, jew, etc. You just listen to what someone tells you or read it in a book, and suddenly you have meaning to your life, a set of rules with penalties and rewards. It's a great system. Hell I wish I was ignorant and I didn't question what people say and try to find logic behind it. Brainwashing is very easy to do with a subject that is near impossible to disprove and when it is something that is common in your culture. There are some people who are definitely not ignorant, that were taught about christianity when they were very young nonstop up until they began to think for themselves. When your parents and family and friends all are telling you something but don't offer any proof, typically there is none needed. It is so, you easily believe it. Why would friends, family, society lie about this? Then you get to a point where you read/hear/see contradictions. You get introduced to other religions that disagree and suddenly they are VERY WRONG because you KNOW (believe) in your own religion... WHY??? these people cannot disprove the contradictions or prove what they believe.
There are also some HUGE implications for people that have some faith but doubt it a little. People in christianity are taught that they must believe to go to heaven, if they don't it's hell . . . Why the fuck would someone want to admit they don't believe, even to themselves. There is yet another psychological factor that helps people convince themsleves that they believe.
anyways I'm rambling
I tend to lean toward option B if God did exist, unfortunately for me I don't think I will ever believe in God because there is absolutely no way it can be proven. I cannot be scared into believing (by being told that I'll go to hell). Not because I'm stubborn, but because it just doesn't work. I do think that there is a LOT of psychology that plays into all of this and I think it actually fits into both sides of there being a God as well as there not being a God.
I honestly am completely content enough with my beliefs (or lack thereof) that I am not worried about dieing. Not because I believe I'm going to heaven, but because I believe that I will never believe for certain one way or another and can never know until I do die. While I want to postpone death for as long as possible, I am kind of excited to finally know the truth once and for all
Personally, I think I'd rather go with just completely ceasing to exist it's much more simple
2 logical situations:
A) He created everything and set out a path in the time-space continuum that must and will happen (destiny). If this is the case, then praying to God to make a change is questioning his authority which is just plain stupid. In this situation prayer is purely communication but you can't help what you do because "God made you do it" anyway lol
B) He initiated the big bang (or however the known space-time continuum and the universe began) with a set of rules (we call this physics) that must be followed. Those rules have caused the chain of events that have led up to NOW. This includes evolution, and every other scientifically proven phenomenon that has been questioned by religion in the past. He is not actively judgemental in our known world and is not causing shit to happen as a reward (flourishing economies, crops, etc) or punishment (natural disasters, deaths, terrorism, etc). All of these things just fall within the rules (Physics, Mathematics, or just science in general) that He created. There was a dude that lived 2k years ago named Jesus from Nazerath that was a Jew and was an ambassedor for God. He did not perform any miracles that we could not perform now. Magic tricks, sly lessons, manipulation of cutting edge science, etc could easily explain the beginnings of the 'miracles'. Just like Socrates, he was outcasted by many and was killed for being ahead of his time. He did have followers who all interpreted what they experienced slightly differently and interpreted it using what they knew about religion then (much more mystical). This went into something called the Bible. Once this happened Jesus became much more than the simple man that he was into something much bigger because of his follower's writings.
Now the flaw in situation B is that if God actually does not interact with the world after he initiated its beginning, then how does man know about God? Quite simple:
1) We don't 'Know', some believe which is a piece of information someone holds to be true without logical proof
2) He simply could have set down some specific rules (We still call this Physics, Mathematics, Science . . .) that say "For an andvanced brain that has a state of consciousness, the conscious being should tend to wonder about the beginnings and endings of their lives and what controls it. This can be used as a mechanism for many things such as comfort, to keep the species alive (will to live), etc)"
Anyways I could go on forever but let me get to what I do believe and what I lean towards:
I do believe that there is a psychological need for humans (and possibly ever other species) to want to have meaning to life. A simple way to explain this that is very difficult to refute is a supreme being(s) that interacts with the world. Good is caused by God bad is caused by Satan. This makes people feel good. There is a natural psychological tendancy for us to want to feel good so this all fits nicely. The idea of having to answer for your actions after you die is GREAT at getting people to be 'good'. People tend to not do things like rape, murder, lie, and do other shady ass things when they truely believe that they will have to answer for their actions later on with a penalty of eternal suffering. Of course this doesn't work for everyone, but it does help. It's also comforting for people to think that they are special. "God made man to watch over the world". Kinda cool to think that we are really second in command when it comes to the world . . . All of these things a great. ESPECIALLY for the ignorant.
I'm not saying that religious people are ignorant. I'm just saying that relgion is extremely convienient for the ignorant, because it requires no thought whatsoever to become a christian, muslim, jew, etc. You just listen to what someone tells you or read it in a book, and suddenly you have meaning to your life, a set of rules with penalties and rewards. It's a great system. Hell I wish I was ignorant and I didn't question what people say and try to find logic behind it. Brainwashing is very easy to do with a subject that is near impossible to disprove and when it is something that is common in your culture. There are some people who are definitely not ignorant, that were taught about christianity when they were very young nonstop up until they began to think for themselves. When your parents and family and friends all are telling you something but don't offer any proof, typically there is none needed. It is so, you easily believe it. Why would friends, family, society lie about this? Then you get to a point where you read/hear/see contradictions. You get introduced to other religions that disagree and suddenly they are VERY WRONG because you KNOW (believe) in your own religion... WHY??? these people cannot disprove the contradictions or prove what they believe.
There are also some HUGE implications for people that have some faith but doubt it a little. People in christianity are taught that they must believe to go to heaven, if they don't it's hell . . . Why the fuck would someone want to admit they don't believe, even to themselves. There is yet another psychological factor that helps people convince themsleves that they believe.
anyways I'm rambling
I tend to lean toward option B if God did exist, unfortunately for me I don't think I will ever believe in God because there is absolutely no way it can be proven. I cannot be scared into believing (by being told that I'll go to hell). Not because I'm stubborn, but because it just doesn't work. I do think that there is a LOT of psychology that plays into all of this and I think it actually fits into both sides of there being a God as well as there not being a God.
I honestly am completely content enough with my beliefs (or lack thereof) that I am not worried about dieing. Not because I believe I'm going to heaven, but because I believe that I will never believe for certain one way or another and can never know until I do die. While I want to postpone death for as long as possible, I am kind of excited to finally know the truth once and for all
Personally, I think I'd rather go with just completely ceasing to exist it's much more simple
P
powderguy
Guest
I was in Iraq for a year. I prayed every single day that God would let come what may.
It was Mar. 05 and I was standing RIGHT beside this Iraqi soldier when an IED inside of a car went off leveling several houses, destroying several cars, and killing 12 people.
As soon as the IED detonated, there were shots fired in our direction.....it was an ambush.
I took cover behind a gutted car when I looked down around the side of the vehicle and saw Sieed (the Iraqi soldier). He was laying there out in the open and I assumed he was unconcious because I was alive and when the bomb went off I was about 14 inches from him.......
I pull on his leg trying to get him behind the vehicle for cover when I realize that I am only pulling his lower torso. He was blown in half by the blast less than 2 feet away from me.
My point? Why would I live and Sieed die when we were so damn close to each other when the shit went down? Was it because that was Gods will? I believe so.
If you ask me if there is a God, I will say with all certainty...................YES! There is a God and he is alive and well.
It was Mar. 05 and I was standing RIGHT beside this Iraqi soldier when an IED inside of a car went off leveling several houses, destroying several cars, and killing 12 people.
As soon as the IED detonated, there were shots fired in our direction.....it was an ambush.
I took cover behind a gutted car when I looked down around the side of the vehicle and saw Sieed (the Iraqi soldier). He was laying there out in the open and I assumed he was unconcious because I was alive and when the bomb went off I was about 14 inches from him.......
I pull on his leg trying to get him behind the vehicle for cover when I realize that I am only pulling his lower torso. He was blown in half by the blast less than 2 feet away from me.
My point? Why would I live and Sieed die when we were so damn close to each other when the shit went down? Was it because that was Gods will? I believe so.
If you ask me if there is a God, I will say with all certainty...................YES! There is a God and he is alive and well.
cyrex
New member
i'm gonna go ahead and say Physics is why you didn't die LOL
now God may have created Physics such that you wouldn't have died, but it was all physics for sure. It's not like an IED is gonna completely obliterate everything in a certain radius.
I do think that you believing that God had something to do with it will help you sleep better at night, which is a good thing
now God may have created Physics such that you wouldn't have died, but it was all physics for sure. It's not like an IED is gonna completely obliterate everything in a certain radius.
I do think that you believing that God had something to do with it will help you sleep better at night, which is a good thing
P
powderguy
Guest
Physics huh? LOL! That is some good stuff!cyrex said:i'm gonna go ahead and say Physics is why you didn't die LOL
now God may have created Physics such that you wouldn't have died, but it was all physics for sure. It's not like an IED is gonna completely obliterate everything in a certain radius.
I do think that you believing that God had something to do with it will help you sleep better at night, which is a good thing
I am WELL aware that an IED wont destroy everything in its radius, however; it is very strange to me that I was not in his place and him in mine.........or, I was not an Iraqi soldier and he was American........or, the shrapnel that cut him in half didn't fly less than two feet to the right......or, that I didn't have a single scratch on me (minus a few from diving face first onto asphalt) and he was in half......or, he prays to Allah, while I pray to God.....Or, well, you get the point.
P
powderguy
Guest
Thanks, but I believe that God is on the side of those who believe.JavaGuru said:
