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Will completely blocking estrogen hinder gains.
- Thread starter Backhouse
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Strong_Man20
New member
Hey guys,
if you were to take armidex at 1mg ed. How much estrogen do u think you would be able to prevent if you were on a heavy test cycle??
if you were to take armidex at 1mg ed. How much estrogen do u think you would be able to prevent if you were on a heavy test cycle??
The only study ever done on men showed it reduced E by 58%. But it is a very individual thing and that figure came from men with normal test levels not on a gram of added test. There is debate now, and we will try to settle it this week, about whether your body produces more aromatese enzymes as you add test. If so then you need to take more arimidex as the dose of test goes up. Stay tuned.
MaxBiceps said:
If that was the case, nandrolone, winstrol, and trenbolone (just to name a few) would be ineffective steroids since they would cause an overall decrease in estrogen levels..
No how about that search, hmmm? Are you sure estrogen is "vital" for muscle growth?
Andy
ROIDRANGER
New member
ulter said:
shit--try whacking a heavy-load of CYTADREN for a while.....and yes there can be a rebound effect..
The Iron Game
New member
Are we sure someone is not mistaking cortisol for estrogen 
B
Big Johnson
Guest
True story:
My workout partner is one of these lucky mothers who is a natural 7% bf WHATEVER he eats. He eats 6000 cal a day and still doesn't put on weight without AS. Now, when he starts an anti E with test he loses a few pounds of water and fat. This has a psychological affect on him. He would rather be a few pounds heavier with fat and water than lighter without it.
I've tried fina and decca, and all I can say is that estrogen plays a very small role if at all in muscle growth and increases in strength.
My workout partner is one of these lucky mothers who is a natural 7% bf WHATEVER he eats. He eats 6000 cal a day and still doesn't put on weight without AS. Now, when he starts an anti E with test he loses a few pounds of water and fat. This has a psychological affect on him. He would rather be a few pounds heavier with fat and water than lighter without it.
I've tried fina and decca, and all I can say is that estrogen plays a very small role if at all in muscle growth and increases in strength.
mranderson
New member
this is a sad day but the replies on this post a pretty much bullshit, man estrogen has a whole lot to do with growth just to much causes unwanted sides not enought and you stay small you have to find that safe middle ground do a search here and on the web learn as much as you can about the rule estrogen plays youll see how important est realy is!
Nathan
New member
Maybe this will answer some fo your questions about estrogen and the effects of anti-e's on muscle growth:
The use of agents to lower estrogen levels (aromatase inhibitors), or to block estrogen action at the receptor (estrogen receptor antagonists), has become quite en vogue lately. Personally, I think they are overused and could hinder muscle mass gains.
I have discussed before the potential suppressant effects of anti-estrogen compounds on GH and IGF-1 production. But beyond that, there may be direct beneficial effects of estrogen on androgen activity in muscle that may be blocked by anti-estrogens.
One important mechanism involved in muscle growth is the formation of NADPH, which is used as the prime source of energy (reducing power) in anabolic processes. Androgens are well known to stimulate one of the key enzymes involved in the formation of NADPH, called glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. Furthermore, glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase is also involved in the production of raw materials for nucleic acid synthesis. Nucleic acids biosynthesis is required at high rates in regenerating tissues.
One of the most widely documented effects of androgens is stimulation of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, and this is thought to be key to their anabolic activity. A recent study found however that without estrogens, androgens are not able to fully exert their stimulatory activity on this enzyme. The authors conclude that androgens and estrogens may exert synergistic effects on skeletal muscle. (Max SR,"Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase", Mol Cell Endocrinol 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7)
The same author also found another mechanism by which estrogens may increase the activity of androgens in skeletal muscle. He used rats that had their testes removed and then administered androgens to them, with and without estrogens. What he found was that estrogens caused a very substantial increase in the binding of androgens to their receptors. He hypothesized that this is due either to a greater synthesis, or a decreased degradation of, androgen receptors. (Rance NE, Max SR, "Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids", Endocrinology 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6)
So you see that it may be time for bodybuilders to rethink the use of anti-estrogen compounds. I think that a risk to benefit determination has to be considered, and unless someone feels that he is a high-risk case for estrogen related side effects, he probably should pass on the anti-estrogens.
The use of agents to lower estrogen levels (aromatase inhibitors), or to block estrogen action at the receptor (estrogen receptor antagonists), has become quite en vogue lately. Personally, I think they are overused and could hinder muscle mass gains.
I have discussed before the potential suppressant effects of anti-estrogen compounds on GH and IGF-1 production. But beyond that, there may be direct beneficial effects of estrogen on androgen activity in muscle that may be blocked by anti-estrogens.
One important mechanism involved in muscle growth is the formation of NADPH, which is used as the prime source of energy (reducing power) in anabolic processes. Androgens are well known to stimulate one of the key enzymes involved in the formation of NADPH, called glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. Furthermore, glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase is also involved in the production of raw materials for nucleic acid synthesis. Nucleic acids biosynthesis is required at high rates in regenerating tissues.
One of the most widely documented effects of androgens is stimulation of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, and this is thought to be key to their anabolic activity. A recent study found however that without estrogens, androgens are not able to fully exert their stimulatory activity on this enzyme. The authors conclude that androgens and estrogens may exert synergistic effects on skeletal muscle. (Max SR,"Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase", Mol Cell Endocrinol 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7)
The same author also found another mechanism by which estrogens may increase the activity of androgens in skeletal muscle. He used rats that had their testes removed and then administered androgens to them, with and without estrogens. What he found was that estrogens caused a very substantial increase in the binding of androgens to their receptors. He hypothesized that this is due either to a greater synthesis, or a decreased degradation of, androgen receptors. (Rance NE, Max SR, "Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids", Endocrinology 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6)
So you see that it may be time for bodybuilders to rethink the use of anti-estrogen compounds. I think that a risk to benefit determination has to be considered, and unless someone feels that he is a high-risk case for estrogen related side effects, he probably should pass on the anti-estrogens.
OK..
I'll ask the question once again.
Is trenbolone an effective steroid?
Is nandrolone an effective steroid?
Both of these will cause an overall DECREASE in estrogen levels. So how is it that these are HIGHLY effective steroids without the presence of estrogens?
Andy
I'll ask the question once again.
Is trenbolone an effective steroid?
Is nandrolone an effective steroid?
Both of these will cause an overall DECREASE in estrogen levels. So how is it that these are HIGHLY effective steroids without the presence of estrogens?
Andy
BTW, androgens cause transcription of growth factor genes as well as estrogens.
It is valid to say that an overall decrease of growth factor gene transcription will occur in the absence of estrogen. HOWEVER this effect is MORE than compensated for in individuals with supraphysiological androgen levels.
It is valid to say that an overall decrease of growth factor gene transcription will occur in the absence of estrogen. HOWEVER this effect is MORE than compensated for in individuals with supraphysiological androgen levels.
FlexManning
New member
Suppressing estrogen is known to hinder growth. That's obvious. Why don't you
read some of Bill LLewelyn work. (I'm probably murdering that spelling). Why do
you think d-bol has been used by bodybuilders for so long? The roids that increase
estrogen and tend to cause bloating and side effects are best for growth. Not only
that, but you carry that extra water weight for awhile, then lose it, but your
body's still used to all that weight. So if you go on another cycle soon enough,
you might be able to build extra muscle with the support systems you've
encouraged. Set Point Theory.
read some of Bill LLewelyn work. (I'm probably murdering that spelling). Why do
you think d-bol has been used by bodybuilders for so long? The roids that increase
estrogen and tend to cause bloating and side effects are best for growth. Not only
that, but you carry that extra water weight for awhile, then lose it, but your
body's still used to all that weight. So if you go on another cycle soon enough,
you might be able to build extra muscle with the support systems you've
encouraged. Set Point Theory.
Andy I think you have answered your own question, "Both of these will cause an overall DECREASE in estrogen levels. "
Neither of these drugs would eliminate estrogen even if they did cause a decrease. So you would still have an ample supply to to hydrate the muscle and to grow with.
Neither of these drugs would eliminate estrogen even if they did cause a decrease. So you would still have an ample supply to to hydrate the muscle and to grow with.
FlexManning
New member
No, you wouldn't completely eliminate estrogen. However even using a little
Nolvadex can slow gains down.
Nolvadex can slow gains down.
CYCLEON
New member
as teh man said hindering estrogenic growth is quite a different thing from eliminating all estrogen - our body's chemistry is a delicate balance and requires a minimum level.
Andy you are correct, as far as i can tell, that estrogen doesnt play a heavy anabolic role in the muscle stimulation - my question is that it may be more of a systemic factor that is attributable to environmental effects of increased estrogen that permit enhanced synthesis/synergy of androgens that is not explained by cortisol effets aloone (dang that 1.4 is kicken in)
Nathan -arimdex should have a different effect than other anti-es, it has also proved to stimulate increased test production by itself.
wow im woosy - nite for me
Andy you are correct, as far as i can tell, that estrogen doesnt play a heavy anabolic role in the muscle stimulation - my question is that it may be more of a systemic factor that is attributable to environmental effects of increased estrogen that permit enhanced synthesis/synergy of androgens that is not explained by cortisol effets aloone (dang that 1.4 is kicken in)
Nathan -arimdex should have a different effect than other anti-es, it has also proved to stimulate increased test production by itself.
wow im woosy - nite for me
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