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Why Primo Kicks Your Steroid's Ass.

Nelson Montana said:
I know this has been mentioned, but it bears repeating.

Testosterone is only one of the factors in muscle growth. A simple case in point: A single shot of 100 mgs a week will raise T levels to around 900 ngs which is WAY up there -- as much as any natural athlete can expect to have. But as everyone knows, that much gear won't do dick.

Why?

It comes down to protein synthesis. How much protein your muscles can utilize is what will determine how much muscle you grow. Of course, testosterone will increase protein synthesis too, but it will also increase weight, aggression, strength and libido, which makes it seem oh so more powerful than Primo. Butat the end of the line , 1000mgs of Primo will pt on more muscle than 1000mgs of T, and it'll do it with less suppression.
Keep in mind, how much protein our muscles can utilize is determined by genetics, even when on gear. This is why you see so many " steroid blobs." They take a lot of gear. They may even train hard and eat right. But there body will only accept so much protein, after that, there's fat and water and increased blood volume and estrogen. As I said: "blobs."

Enter Primo -- specifcally designed to be as low in androgens as possible. Primo does essentially one thing. It uses protein to repair -- which is exactly what you want. But how many times have you heard; "Aw, Primo's weak as shit." You know why people say that? Two reasons: One; They don't take in enough protein. Without protein the steroid has nothing to do. You must saturate your bloodstream with aminos. And two: They don't train hard enough. Without sufficient muscle breakdown the drug also has nothing to do. It must recognize trauma and seek to repair it. The result? More muscle. But of course, testosterone will give the illusion much more dramatically leading people to believe it's stronger. It isn't. It is harsher though. And cheaper, therefore attractive.

I'd have to say that only tren and maybe d-bol beats Primo in the pure muscle growth department, but 1000 mgs of d-bol a week is out of the question and considering tren's side effects, it too isn't the wisest choice.

No sides. Can't convert to estrogen. Doesn't bloat. Isn't as hard on hair as people think. Harly suppressive. And builds quality muscle. Primo's the shit. I'm surprised more companies haven't made their own version.

Your ignorance is so total its just scary.

Ever heard of catabolic and anabolic systems?

Testosterone DOES RAIN PROTEIN SYNTHESIS YOU FOOL!!!

Thats why its an anabolic.

But it also increases catabolism considerbly.

BUT,

since anabolic - catabolic > 0,Well........you GROW!!!

WOW.......what a cocept.

Primo only beats test. because its a DHT derrivative and its anabolic - catabolic > tests.

Also, ever heard of nitrogen retention?

Nandrolone and stanzolol both DESTROY primo for nitrogen retention and increase in protein synthesis.

So, therefore, they both kick Primos ass.

As does anavar.

As does trenbolone.

As does masteron.

As does Equipoise.

So, do everybody a favour and just shut up and read a scientific journal for a change b/c your knowledge of AAS is truly draconian.

Fonz
 
Re: Re: Why Primo Kicks Your Steroid's Ass.

Fonz said:


Your ignorance is so total its just scary.

Ever heard of catabolic and anabolic systems?

Testosterone DOES RAIN PROTEIN SYNTHESIS YOU FOOL!!!

Thats why its an anabolic.

But it also increases catabolism considerbly.

BUT,

since anabolic - catabolic > 0,Well........you GROW!!!

WOW.......what a cocept.

Primo only beats test. because its a DHT derrivative and its anabolic - catabolic > tests.

Also, ever heard of nitrogen retention?

Nandrolone and stanzolol both DESTROY primo for nitrogen retention and increase in protein synthesis.

So, therefore, they both kick Primos ass.

As does anavar.

As does trenbolone.

As does masteron.

As does Equipoise.

So, do everybody a favour and just shut up and read a scientific journal for a change b/c your knowledge of AAS is truly draconian.

Fonz

What do you know. It's Mr. "I'm a scientist because I know how to cut and paste".

Before mouthing off, read the post jackass. I said that teststerone will synthesize protein. That IS nitrogen retention Einstein.

Deca? Increases prog and affects ED. Primo does not.

Winstrol? Increases LDL and hampers joint and tendons. Primo does not.

Anavar? Liver toxic. Primo is not.

Tren? Too many side effects to mention that Primo has not. Talk to High Intensity about this one.

Masteron? Start shopping for toupee's.

I really feel sorry for any fool who follows your advice. But in all fairness, I believe you're sicere. You just don't know any better.
 
This threads was very so much interesting to read. Tons of infos not only on Primo. Bummer it heated up at the end...
 
Nelson Montana said:
Bottom line with fakes: Anything can be faked. Go with a reliable source and keep your fingers crossed. If you get a good batch -- stock up.
Yep, anything can be faked. However, the probability of running into fake primo is very high.

When I am planning on injecting a chemical into my body, I prefer to utilize a more reliable product.


As for the argument that it has many advantages over other drugs - I agree. But again it has the disadvantages of simply being unavailable, unreliable, and prohibitively expensive for very many of us.
 
gppower said:
This threads was very so much interesting to read. Tons of infos not only on Primo. Bummer it heated up at the end...


Yep. Thank Fonz. He can't stand it when he isn't the center of attention so he uses his psuedo science cliche's in a feeble attempt to disparage anyone who doesn't share his opinion.

The funny thing is, the original post was such a benign statement. But leave it to fonz to turn it into a flame fest.

You can't blame me for this one.

Kids.
 
Re: Re: Re: Why Primo Kicks Your Steroid's Ass.

JibbyJabba said:


Why does rule #2 on the following thread not apply to you?

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=231357

Also, once again, your choice of words is fairly poor for someone who is so damned condescending.

draconian

In the case of Nelson Montana, that rule doesn't apply to anybody.

You know what he writes about?

Other people's writings(VERY old ones too)....then para-phrases
them into his own words.

I'll show you an example of his IDIOCY. And he has been here for almost a year and learned NOTHING. And I mean that, NOTHING.

Anavar liver toxic?

LOL

Thats a good one.

Care to refute this Nelson? Or are you going to run or say "wahtever its meaningless" like usual.

Am J Gastroenterol 1991 Sep;86(9):1200-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


A randomized, controlled trial of treatment of alcoholic hepatitis with parenteral nutrition and oxandrolone. I. Short-term effects on liver function.

Bonkovsky HL, Fiellin DA, Smith GS, Slaker DP, Simon D, Galambos JT.

Department of Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia.

The present studies were designed to provide careful measures of effects of oxandrolone, an anabolic steroid, intravenous nutritional supplementation, and the combination of these two treatments on liver functions, metabolic balances, nitrogen metabolism, and nutritional status in patients with moderate to severe alcoholic hepatitis. Of 43 patients originally recruited, 39 (19 men, 20 women) with typical clinical and laboratory features of alcoholic hepatitis (11 Child's-Pugh class B; 28 class C) were admitted to a metabolic unit and completed a 35-day three-phase protocol. Phase I was a 10-day baseline period of observation, during which routine and special quantitative tests of liver function (galactose and antipyrine metabolism), a 7-day elemental balance study, and a 15N, 13C-leucine metabolism study were done. Phase II was a 21-day treatment period during which patients were randomly assigned to receive one of four regimens: 1) standard therapy, consisting of abstinence, a balanced, nutritionally adequate diet, and multivitamins; 2) oxandrolone (20 mg orally four times a day) plus standard therapy; 3) nutritional supplementation, consisting of 2 L daily of 3.5% crystalline amino acids (in 5% dextrose), given by peripheral vein; or 4) a combination of oxandrolone and nutritional supplementation, along with standard therapy. Metabolic balances were repeated during phase II. Phase III was 2 or 3 days posttreatment, during which special studies of liver functions and volumes and leucine metabolism were repeated. All patients who completed phase I of study and were randomly allocated to one of the four treatment groups completed the subsequent two phases. Overall, with time, patients showed highly significant improvements in most clinical and laboratory features. For most standard laboratory tests (e.g., serum albumin, transferrin, prothrombin time) improvements were more marked in patients treated with nutritional supplementation and/or oxandrolone than in those given standard therapy alone. Liver volumes fell in all treatment groups, with greater improvement in those treated with nutritional supplementation. Improvements in galactose and antipyrine metabolism rates were significant only in those treated with nutritional supplementation or oxandrolone. Effects of treatments on metabolic balances, nitrogen metabolism, and measures of nutrition are described in this issue in a companion paper. We conclude that the addition of nutritional supplementation and oxandrolone to standard therapy of moderately severe or severe alcoholic hepatitis is well tolerated, and leads to more rapid improvement in the laboratory parameters measured.


To sum this abstract up, PEOPLE WITH HEPATITIS(alcoholic) MODERATE TO SEVERE...as you can see very unhealthy.
Were administered 20mg oxandrolone 4X a day, FOR A TOTAL OF 80mg!!!!!

And guess what?

Their liver values dropped.

The clincher...from the abstract:

"We conclude that the addition of nutritional supplementation and oxandrolone to standard therapy of moderately severe or severe alcoholic hepatitis is well tolerated, and leads to more rapid improvement in the laboratory parameters measured"

SO Nelson, before typing something you know NOTHING about........research it.



And yes JibbyJabba, it should be "Archaic", not "draconian". But NM incenses me to a point nobody else does because he spreads so much disinformation.

He's a dinasour pure and simple. If you want to follow in his footsteps, be my guest. I'd rather rely on peer-reviewed studies on this occassion.

Fonz
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Primo Kicks Your Steroid's Ass.

Fonz said:


And yes JibbyJabba, it should be "Archaic", not "draconian". But NM incenses me to a point nobody else does because he spreads so much disinformation.

He's a dinasour pure and simple. If you want to follow in his footsteps, be my guest. I'd rather rely on peer-reviewed studies on this occassion.

Fonz

I don't think Nelson views Anavar as hard on the liver. Just hard on the liver relative to Primobolan. He includes var in his ideal, primo-based, 3 week cycle.

I don't think that study you posted is worth much.

It's done on alcoholics. Var can be slightly liver toxic and still allow an alcholics liver values to improve while going through rehab. I'll bet if the alcoholics in question were on any AS (not just var) they would still have had improved liver values after they ceased drinking all the time.

I'm not trying to follow in Nelson's foot steps. He just fits in very well with the way I view things.
 
I just PM'ed Ulter so he can come post his panoply of oxandrolone studies... :)

Fonz
 
kosh said:
Although I did run it in pretty high doses. Eq did not make me as hard as primo, more vascular, but not as hard. .

kosh-
what were the doses you ran on each for this comparison?
 
Fonz said:
I just PM'ed Ulter so he can come post his panoply of oxandrolone studies... :)

Fonz

So... for the record, your claim is that Anavar is 100% harmless to the liver?

I don't even think that BTG would make that claim. Though, I do find it curious that the company does not say to avoid alcohol when on var. Though, Unimed doesn't say to avoid alcohol when on Anadrol.

Again, I think the point was that Var is harder, albeit marginally, on the liver than primo.
 
How about the prostate?

Mine feels like a big 'ol rock up my ass and I got to pee every 2 hours or less.

Testosterone can be taken iif finasteride and/or saw palmetto extract (or beta sitosterol) are used. Saw palmetto for type I and II 5 ar and finasteride for type II 5 ar.

Will primo cause problems with my prostate? Thinking of like 300mg/wk.
 
As with any egomaniac, the rules don't apply to fonz. They only apply when they're in his favor. The fact that fonz himself made this rule also makes him a consumate hypocrite.

Yeah, JJ -- I too was wondering what he meant when he said my thinking was "cruel". But if you think about it, his misuse of the word draconian is so elegantly apropos. It's BIG. It's arcane. And most people wouldn't know what it means. Therefore, he throws it out there in an attempt to sound educated and intimidating. But much like his "research" it turns out to be incorrect and misleading -- and he doesn't even know it himself! How perfect is THAT?

Still using that same one study from 1991, eh fonz? Okay, let's play with your ball.

If you read that study you'll realize that the test was done on people with severe liver damage from alcohol abuse. The conclusions were done after the subjects obstained from drinking. Of course there was an improvement in liver values!

And I love this..."The ones who received NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTATION AND/OR oxandrolone showed more improvement." Well, that's a tad ambiguous, isn't it? AND/OR...? Which was it? BTW: "Ambiguous means vague, imprecise or contradictory.

The conlusion from that study is so flawed it's funny -- which is why there hasn't been another to back it up in 13 years. It's like saying; " Someone with a cold smoked 2 cigarettes a day for 2 weeks and cold symptoms subsided. It is therefore concluded that smoking cigarettes cures a cold."

But alas, this is the way it is with pretend scientists. The only people who think this guy has anything on the ball are those who don't know any better and are impressed with his babble and cut and pasting skills.

Ox is 17 AA. The very process causes liver damage. That's a fact fonz. Accept it. I believe even Juice Authority had a study that showed that. I'm sure there are many.

Now that he's been proven wrong, watch him close the thread.

Fonz is a joke. Wise up people.
 
Nelson Montana said:
As with any egomaniac, the rules don't apply to fonz. They only apply when they're in his favor. The fact that fonz himself made this rule also makes him a consumate hypocrite.

Yeah, JJ -- I too was wondering what he meant when he said my thinking was "cruel". But if you think about it, his misuse of the word draconian is so elegantly apropos. It's BIG. It's arcane. And most people wouldn't know what it means. Therefore, he throws it out there in an attempt to sound educated and intimidating. But much like his "research" it turns out to be incorrect and misleading -- and he doesn't even know it himself! How perfect is THAT?

Still using that same one study from 1991, eh fonz? Okay, let's play with your ball.

If you read that study you'll realize that the test was done on people with severe liver damage from alcohol abuse. The conclusions were done after the subjects obstained from drinking. Of course there was an improvement in liver values!

And I love this..."The ones who received NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTATION AND/OR oxandrolone showed more improvement." Well, that's a tad ambiguous, isn't it? AND/OR...? Which was it? BTW: "Ambiguous means vague, imprecise or contradictory.

The conlusion from that study is so flawed it's funny -- which is why there hasn't been another to back it up in 13 years. It's like saying; " Someone with a cold smoked 2 cigarettes a day for 2 weeks and cold symptoms subsided. It is therefore concluded that smoking cigarettes cures a cold."

But alas, this is the way it is with pretend scientists. The only people who think this guy has anything on the ball are those who don't know any better and are impressed with his babble and cut and pasting skills.

Ox is 17 AA. The very process causes liver damage. That's a fact fonz. Accept it. I believe even Juice Authority had a study that showed that. I'm sure there are many.

Now that he's been proven wrong, watch him close the thread.

Fonz is a joke. Wise up people.

Again, you're behind the time old bag.

Oxandrolone is metabolized by proteases in the blood-stream, so that only 1/3 of it is actually metabolized by the liver. It is VERY unique in this regard.

Fukkenshredded, Ulter, Macro, and others at AF discussed this rather unique scenario.....and it showed to be true.

So, check mate old bag.....time to hit those chem books...lol

Just leave with your wounds NM, because I will erradicate any type of disinformation you try to permeate into EF.

Fonz
 
If Fonz had been reading the thread from the beginning instead of chiming in at page 6 he would have known that primo is a dhb derivative, the parent compound being boldenone not testosterone.

The study does seem flawed, and does not stand up to scrutiny. I'm not trying to be overly draconian here but the only thing that study proves is that drinking is hard on the liver.

Nelson, you keep avoiding the question, what do you feel is so bad about Boldenone?
 
Of course everyone know var, compared with primo, will elevate liver values more. But fuck, not enough to argue about. As the bro that asked what dose I ran the primo at, I ran it at 600mg per week. Good results. When I said that it was a joke to compare Eq to primo, I was only speaking from my personal expirence. Scientificly I had no idea that primo and eq were anything alike. Guess my Eq could have been underdosed or something, it was from a mexi company. But I will conclude with this, I have ran Eq and Primo alone with simular a simular diet and training routine and I though that Primo blew away the Eq in terms of results.
 
Fonz said:


Again, you're behind the time old bag.

Oxandrolone is metabolized by proteases in the blood-stream, so that only 1/3 of it is actually metabolized by the liver. It is VERY unique in this regard.

Fukkenshredded, Ulter, Macro, and others at AF discussed this rather unique scenario.....and it showed to be true.

So, check mate old bag.....time to hit those chem books...lol

Just leave with your wounds NM, because I will erradicate any type of disinformation you try to permeate into EF.

Fonz

Be that as it may... would it not still be more damaging to the liver than Primo?

I think you're checkmate is a bit premature.
 
jubei said:

Nelson, you keep avoiding the question, what do you feel is so bad about Boldenone?

I don't think Nelson is anti-boldenone, but for the fact that it is veterinary gear and therefore mor elikely to be impure.

So, how about it Nelson? How do you feel about say, Fort Dodge, EQ?
 
JJ, that is why I was asking Nelson. I have asked the question several times, yet I never get an answer? Throwing out the inevitable "vet gear" argument I am curious what Nelson thinks of bold.

When purchasing eq or primo which one do you think is more likely to be legit? I would rather have a product that is underdosed by 25 percent than a product with no active ingredient.
 
Yeah, can we lose these "You're avoiding the question" accusations whenever I don't immediately respond to something.

Regarding bold, I addressed this many, many times but if the "vet gear" argument or the fact that it newters you isn't enough, there probably won't be much I can say to convince you othrwise since bold is a powerful and effective anabolic.

Face it. Fonz is just picking a fight at this point. Such infantile tactics prove he has nothing to offer to the discussion and only diminishes his credibility -- not that he ever had much to start with.

There are studies that suggest that var is less toxc than other orals. There are studies that suggest it's more toxic since such a high dosage is nessessary to get results. At any rate, it is not less toxic than Primo and I'm sure fonz knows that, but as I said. He's just picking a fight. Maybe his luster with the board is fading and he's craving attention. Fine fonz. Call me names and argue minutea if that's what makes you feel better. Act as indignant as you like. You're still wrong.
 
Nelson, I asked you on another thread and you saw it but didn't respond. How does eq newter you? I have never heard this argument before. I'm not saying that you're wrong but do you have anything to back this up?

I agree that var while less toxic than other oral 17AA's it is still more toxic than primo.
 
I love it when people start BACK-PEDDALING.....lol

NM, stick to your guns and just talk clomid and SBHG.

You got blasted less there than here.

Its incredible how many time you have been shot down. Which lends a lot of credence to Riker29:

He's doing this to generate controversy and therefore increase book sales. Nobody is this stupid.

I agree with his assessment.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:
I love it when people start BACK-PEDDALING.....lol

NM, stick to your guns and just talk clomid and SBHG.

You got blasted less there than here.

Its incredible how many time you have been shot down. Which lends a lot of credence to Riker29:

He's doing this to generate controversy and therefore increase book sales. Nobody is this stupid.

I agree with his assessment.

Fonz

Why again does this no flame rule not apply?
 
Neuter, yes. Thank you.

Okay, that's an overstatemnt . Bold actually isn't as bad as a lot of other drugs in that regard. In many ways, it's similar to Primo (some call it a "poor mans" Primo) and it causes suppression without that androgenic "kick" but that's a concern mostly from long term use.

In a nutshell, EQ just seems to carry a lot of sides that are inexplicable, ranging from anxiety to flu-like symptoms. It also increases red blood cell count, which in moderate doses is a good thing, but it higher dosages can lead to problems. Honestly, it isn't the worst stuff in the world. I'd take it over fina, drol and maybe even deca. But I still don't feel comfortable using somethng not regulated for human consumption.
 
JibbyJabba said:


That's total bullshit.

God I didnt even notice that, thats such bullshit. Whoever did that, and I think we have an idea of who it was, is obviously a no-good, ignorant bitch who doesnt deserve to be a part of this board.
 
I really love it how fonz acts like he is the boss. Come the fuck down man. Who do you think you are?

You make your stupid rules and you break them. You are the cockiest son of a bitch on this whole board.

Funny thing is you think you can ban nelson? When it comes down to it, who do you think george is gonna ban? You or Nelson? Go think who contributes more to his pocket.

What a fucking joke. I really can't stand you anymore. Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.

And now you edit his sig? :rolleyes:

-sk
 
sk* said:
Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.

And now you edit his sig? :rolleyes:

-sk

Seriously... that's the best point here.

No one ever addressed Fonz - he just had to start flaming Nelson.

I don't know why another Mod doesn't step in and reprimand him.
 
sk* said:
I really love it how fonz acts like he is the boss. Come the fuck down man. Who do you think you are?

You make your stupid rules and you break them. You are the cockiest son of a bitch on this whole board.

Funny thing is you think you can ban nelson? When it comes down to it, who do you think george is gonna ban? You or Nelson? Go think who contributes more to his pocket.

What a fucking joke. I really can't stand you anymore. Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.

And now you edit his sig? :rolleyes:

-sk

This is probably ture, and for good reason, not to mention Nelson would be missed allot more than most if not all the people who give him shit.
 
Wow, I didn't even notice. That's funny. Oh well, I didn't put it there in the first place. George did. But I guess fonz thinks he's more important than the owner of the site. I'll let them battle it out.

This makes everything so evident, doesn't it? Fonz has gone from phony guru to bully to petulent little child. What are you going to do next? Kick over my garbage can? : )


I have no battle with fonz personally. I'm just glad the members are starting to see him for what he really is.
 
ok here's how I see it... Fonz is excellent to bring nice bio-chem explaination and brings a nice scientific way to see things. However, I must admit that there's a lot of cut and paste lately in what I've seen. There's one study that proofs that monkeys masturbate twice per days and another one proofs they masturbate an average of 10 times per days. Which one to beleive??? It's about time to understand that when it comes to studies, the fact that it is on the web and it has to possibilty to be pasted on a board doesn't mean that what's written in it is RIGHT. Var is roughly 40% less toxic mg per mg than others 17AA AAS. Who the f u c k cares? It still has an effect on the liver. In that case the fact that Nelson stated "Var is liver toxic and Primo is not" is true...

Ok here's the deal girls, I enjoy reading Fonz and I enjoy reading Nelson. Nelson's got some nice writting skills also, which makes his post even better to me since I barely speak english. Fonz you started the flame war without reason. And Nelson has done some progress in making less wars lately. So it would be just a little bit better to not come in those kind of arguments. It's silly now. It's very silly.
 
Wow! I take off for a few hours and WWIII breaks out at EF and I don't get to be part of it of the action. :(

In any case, I think the center of this debate (between Fonz and Nelson) started over Anavar's perceived toxicity to the liver. I think the study Nelson referred to that I posted a while back showing that Anavar was more toxic to the liver than Anadrol is below. It shows that Anavar at 40mg's ed is more toxic to the liver than Anadrol at 150mg's ed.


Heard in Geneva:

Oxandrin May Cause Liver Toxicity

by Michael Mooney (Original article in issue #7, October, 1998. Updated July, 2001)

(See also Dr. Donald Abrams review in The AIDS Reader March, 2001;11(3)

While Oxandrin is promoted as being non-toxic to the liver, the truth is Oxandrin is a 17-alpha alkylated oral anabolic steroid so it has the potential to burden the liver, just like any other oral 17-alpha alkylated steroid. We have questioned that its potential for liver toxicity would be enhanced when it is used with other liver-challenging drugs like protease inhibitors and other standard AIDS medications, or with higher dosages. We have an answer.

At the Geneva AIDS Conference, Dr. Carl Grunfeld presented the preliminary results of a placebo controlled dose-ranging study that used 20, 40 and 80 mg daily doses that showed that doses of 40 and 80 mg cause incidence of elevated transaminases (SGOT and SGPT), which may indicate liver toxicity.

Doses above 20 mg per day were tested because 20 mg was found to be relatively ineffective for lean mass gain in some men. Oxandrin is a better option for women who need about half the men’s dose. Children need much less. Although most studies tell us that Oxandrin is relatively safe for HIV-negative people, oxandrolone produced evidence of liver toxicity in studies of boys with kidney failure in 1980.1 We have been somewhat surprised at the number of HIV(+) men who report to us that Oxandrin caused elevations in the blood tests that can indicate liver toxicity. Physician’s should monitor liver tests carefully when Oxandrin, or any oral anabolic steroid is used, especially in higher doses.

Winstrol, another oral steroid is a less expensive option for males. It appears to be somewhat more anabolic than Oxandrin, and a 6 to 18 mg. daily dose has produced good muscle gains without detectable liver burden in males we’ve observed. Anadrol is another powerful option, and while it is thought to be toxic to the liver, we had not had one report of Anadrol at doses as high as 150 mg per day causing elevated liver enzymes until July, 1999, after Anadrol had been on the market for about a year and a half.

This male reported that he had used Anadrol with no negative effect on his liver enzymes when he was using the anti-HIV medications Viracept, Zerit, and Epivir. About nine months after he ended the first Anadrol cycle he started a new cycle of Anadrol, but this time his HIV medications consisted of a cocktail of Videx, Viramune, Hydroxyurea, and Ziagen. Within a few months of this second cycle of Anadrol, blood tests that can indicate liver problems became elevated. It appears that one or more of the medications he was using had some problematic interaction with Anadrol. While we do not know conclusively which medication(s) may have promoted the problem, we have been hearing reports of liver toxicity being associated with hydroxyurea used in combination with other medications in HIV, so this should be taken into consideration.

Interestingly, he also said, "... Anadrol produced much quicker, better results regarding muscle growth. It seemed that just looking at weights added mass! I went from about 185 lbs to about 203 lbs in about 4 months. After stopping the Anadrol and continuing the workouts, I leveled out at 195. The Oxandrin seems to be less effective, although to be fair, I've only been on it for 3 weeks."

Added July, 2001: As time has passed since Anadrol has been introduced into the HIV community, evidence of liver toxicity has appeared, but generally with higher dose use. It appears that oral steroid doses over 20 mg per day, in general, should be considered to have potential for liver toxicity. Anadrol has been prescribed in HIV medicine in doses up to 150 mg per day, and at this dose we have had some reports of liver enzyme elevations, including GGT, a discreet liver function test.

Compare Drug Toxicity at Equal Doses

It is important to note that comparisons of studies that showed a seeming lack of a negative effect of Oxandrin on liver enzymes with HIV(-) and HIV(+) people related to studies of Anadrol that showed a negative effect are not credible. When we consider that liver toxicity is a dose-related phenomena, and then consider that the typical doses that Anadrol has been used and studied at are often 100 mg per day, and the doses that Oxandrin has been used and studied at are usually about 10 to 15 mg per day, there is no credible way to use data from these studies to compare the potential for toxicity of the two steroids. To accurately compare them each steroid must be given at the same dosage to matched subjects.

The Grunfeld study that showed that Oxandrin caused elevated SGOT and SGPT enzymes raises questions about whether Oxandin is just as potentially toxic as any other steroid at higher doses.

Those who’ve had liver disease or are using protease inhibitors (especially Norvir) should have their liver function tested regularly while using any oral steroid and take liver protectants like evening primrose oil, silymarin, lipoic acid, glutamine, and N-acetyl-cysteine.

Also, because oral steroids can decrease the "good" HDL cholesterol and increase the "bad" LDL cholesterol, oral steroids can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD). If you use oral anabolic steroids consider taking 400 to 800 IU of Vitamin E, and 1,000 to 2,000 mg. of Vitamin C with each meal. These vitamin antioxidants help to protect cholesterol from the oxidation that is associated with CVD.

References

Jones RW, et al. J Pediatr, 97(4):559-66 1980
 
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I remember posting that same study JA like 2 years ago, and got my ass hyanded to me by Ulter.

That study is not peer-reviewed and is in essence wrong.

I'm sure Ulter will come by and blast it away.

AND:

The reason I took down Nelson's signature is for him to actually learn to use what we humanoids call science to explain his "theories".

If he's able to BACK THEM UP within 24hrs, the signature will go back up.

I've come to realize you have to corner Nelson right into a deep dark corner to get him to actually TAKE A STAND ON SOMETHING, and not dilly-dally like he usually does.

And for all the rest of you, do shut up. Its time for Nelson to either PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

End of story.

And if you think this will affect his ridiculoius book sales, think again. If you've ever taken finanance courses........they'll most likely go up.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:
I remember posting that same study JA like 2 years ago, and got my ass hyanded to me by Ulter.

That study is not peer-reviewed and is in essence wrong.

I'm sure Ulter will come by and blast it away.

AND:

The reason I took down Nelson's signature is for him to actually learn to use what we humanoids call science to explain his "theories".

If he's able to BACK THEM UP within 24hrs, the signature will go back up.

I've come to realize you have to corner Nelson right into a deep dark corner to get him to actually TAKE A STAND ON SOMETHING, and not dilly-dally like he usually does.

And for all the rest of you, do shut up. Its time for Nelson to either PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

End of story.

And if you think this will affect his ridiculoius book sales, think again. If you've ever taken finanance courses........they'll most likely go up.

Fonz

You are just abusing your "power."

-sk
 
Fonz said:
I remember posting that same study JA like 2 years ago, and got my ass hyanded to me by Ulter.

That study is not peer-reviewed and is in essence wrong.

I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm sure there's evidence out there that would contradict the conclusions from the study I just posed but what about this one?

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/recent/hormone/032000.html

Oxandrin Plus Resistance Exercise Increases Body Weight, Muscle Mass and Body Cell Mass

By Harvey S. Bartnof, MD

During a Satellite Symposium at the 12th National HIV/AIDS Update Conference, researchers presented the results of two studies that showed benefits with Oxandrin therapy in HIV positive patients with weight loss even with anti-HIV therapy. Oxandrin (oxandrolone) is a testosterone (male hormone) analog ("anabolic" or tissue building steroid hormone) that is taken orally. The dose used in these studies was 10 mg twice daily.

The first speaker was Fred R. Sattler, MD, from the University of Southern California. He is an infectious diseases specialist who has been involved in research surrounding HIV-related weight loss and the Wasting Syndrome. Dr. Sattler reviewed some of the literature data indicating how common unexplained weight loss is, even when HAART (highly active antiretroviral therapy) leads to a lower HIV RNA viral load and an increase in the CD4 count. In this setting, "unexplained" means that weight loss is not due to an opportunistic infection, inadequate intake of calories, or poor absorption ("malabsorption") of nutrients into the bloodstream.

The second speaker was Alison Strawford, PhD, RD, from the University of California at San Francisco and Berkeley. Dr. Strawford was the lead author of a publication in last year's Journal of the American Medical Association that showed the benefits of Oxandrin for the treatment of HIV-related weight loss. That study was double-blind (medication or placebo unknown to patients, physicians, and weight trainers), placebo-controlled that enrolled 22 HIV positive men with unexplained HIV-related weight loss.

In the 8-week study, Oxandrin supplementation with regular resistance weight training 3-times weekly and weekly testosterone injections led to a significantly greater increase in lean muscle mass than the control group without Oxandrin. The weekly injections were intended to control the level of testosterone in the body, so that it was equal in all participants as a "testosterone replacement" that would suppress production of testosterone within the body. The group taking Oxandrin had "supraphysiologic" (higher than normal) levels of male hormone, while the placebo group had only physiologic or normal levels. There were two 10-day inpatient study periods to measure detailed aspects of caloric intake and output. Body composition measurements were performed with DEXA (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry). "Quality -of -life" measurements were determined by the "Medical Outcomes Study-HIV Specific" questionnaire. After the 8-week placebo-controlled study, there was an additional 12-week open label follow-up.

Before entering the study, the mean body weight loss was 9%. All men were "eugonadal," meaning they had normal blood levels male hormone. Protease inhibitor therapy was a part of the anti-HIV drug regimen in 54%. The mean baseline HIV RNA viral load was higher in the placebo group (4.9 log or 79,432 copies per milliliter) than in the Oxandrin arm (3.9 log or 7,943 copies per milliliter). The dose of Oxandrin was 10 mg twice daily. The "testosterone enanthate" injections were 100 mg weekly.

Results were as follows. All patients in the study gained weight, lean body (muscle) mass and muscle strength. However, the gains in the Oxandrin arm were greater than those in the arm without Oxandrin. There were no differences in those taking or not taking a protease inhibitor drug. Those randomized to Oxandrin did have a significant decrease in their HDL ("high density lipoprotein" or "good") cholesterol. One patient discontinued due to increased liver enzymes, a known adverse effect.

Specific results after eight weeks showed that the Oxandrin arm had a significantly greater weight increase (6.7 kilograms or 14.7 pounds) when compared to the placebo arm (4.2 kilograms or 9.3 pounds). The Oxandrin arm also had s significantly greater increase in lean body mass (muscle, 6.9 kilograms or 15 pounds) when compared to the placebo arm (3.8 kilograms or 8.4 pounds). Both the Oxandrin and placebo arms had a significant increase in bone mineral density that was not significantly different when comparing the two arms. Also, both arms had a significant loss of body fat (1.6 kilograms or 3.5 pounds) that was not significantly different when comparing the two arms.

Using a "dynamometer," increased strength of various muscle groups was significantly greater in the Oxandrin arm, when compared to the placebo arm. The quality-of-life measurements showed no overall significant differences when compared to baseline, with the exception of an increase in "physical function domain." HIV viral load levels decreased by 0.1-0.2 log copies per milliliter in both arms. CD4 counts remained essentially unchanged in both arms.

Adverse effects showed that the Oxandrin group had a significant decrease in the "HDL" (high density lipoprotein or "good") cholesterol, while the placebo arm did not. Increased liver enzymes occurred in two patients from the Oxandrin arm (one had to stop therapy) and none in the placebo arm. Both of those patients were taking a protease inhibitor anti-HIV drug that also can increase liver enzymes. "Mood swings" occurred in five patients from the Oxandrin arm and three patients from the control arm. Four patients in the Oxandrin arm experienced anxiety, while two patients in each arm reported an increase in libido (desire for sex).

The open-label component enrolled 17 of 22 participants. Results revealed significant weight and lean tissue gains among those originally in the placebo arm.

The third speaker was Nicholaos Bellos, MD, an Infectious Disease specialist from Dallas, Texas. Dr. Bellos presented interim results of a much larger study that was similar to the study above, although this one had no placebo arm and was open-label. A total of 119 HIV positive patients (10% women) with a mean weight loss of 7.5% were enrolled. One month of stable anti-HIV therapy was required. Patients took Oxandrin 10 mg twice daily and were given dietary counseling regarding daily calorie and protein intake, and exercise recommendations of resistance training using "Thera-Band" exercise bands. If men had a low blood serum (no cells) level of testosterone (less than 280 nanograms per deciliter), supplemental testosterone was given.

The interim results for the 69 patients who completed two months showed that 78% had a weight gain. For all of those patients, the mean increase was 1.8 kilograms or 4 pounds and was significant. For the 38 patients who completed four months, 76% had a weight gain. Among those 38 patients, the mean weight gain from baseline was 2.7 kilograms or 6 pounds and was significant. Body composition measurements were analyzed by using BIA (bioelectrical impedance analysis). The results showed a significant increase in "body cell mass," which is associated with increases in lean tissue.

Quality-of-life measurements also improved in the "Functional and Global Well-Being" subscore for those who completed two months. Abnormal laboratory events included mild increases in liver enzymes, total and LDL ("low density lipoprotein" or "bad") cholesterol and a mild decrease in the HDL cholesterol. The liver enzyme changes were not significant, while the LDL and HDL cholesterol changes were. No "masculinizing or virilizing" effects were noted among the women. Interim discontinuation rates, viral load changes, and CD4 count changes were not reported. This study is ongoing.

Oxandrin is available in 2.5 mg pills. Other adverse effects include the following. Longer-term administration of any "androgenic steroid" (including Oxandrin) can cause life-threatening blood-filled cysts (fluid "pockets") in the liver and spleen. These can rupture and cause life-threatening internal bleeding (hemorrhage) or lead to liver failure. Also, liver tumors (usually benign, but can be cancerous) can develop. Usually, the cysts and benign tumors regress after Oxandrin therapy is stopped. In addition, the cholesterol changes discussed above (increased LDL and decreased HDL cholesterol) are associated with an increased risk of "atherosclerosis" ("hardening" of the arteries) that is linked with an increased risk of a premature heart attack. Oxandrin should never be taken by men with prostate cancer, pregnant or breastfeeding women, women with breast cancer (and high blood calcium levels), or anyone with high calcium levels or kidney dysfunction. Oxandrin may also lead to worsened or new onset of diabetes (high blood sugar that might require treatment), acne, hair loss, smaller testicles in men, development of body hair or menstrual abnormalities in women, a deepening of the voice in women, depression, excitability, habituation (addiction risk), sleep problems, breast enlargement, fluid retention ("swelling"), impotence, priapism in men (painful, prolonged, undesired erection), nausea, vomiting, and skin color changes.

Persons taking Oxandrin should have regularly blood tests to monitor changes that might have developed. Those include: liver enzymes (AST, ALT), alkaline phosphatase (bile blockage and bone enzyme), bilirubin (bile pigment), electrolytes ("salts," including sodium, chloride, calcium, potassium, phosphate), muscle enzyme (CPK), sugar (glucose), kidney function (creatinine, BUN or blood urea nitrogen), and CBC (complete blood count). A regular urinalysis also in recommended.

03/20/00

References

Bellos N. Research translates to community practice: reversing weight loss and increasing body cell mass in HIV-associated wasting in the era of HAART. Satellite symposium "Weight Loss and Wasting: Clinical and Community-based Approaches to Treatment" at the 12th National HIV/AIDS Update Conference. March 14-17, 2000; San Francisco, California.

Product Information: Oxandrin (oxandrolone); BTG Pharmaceuticals.

Sattler FR. Overview-metabolic aspects of weight loss and wasting. Satellite symposium "Weight Loss and Wasting: Clinical and Community-based Approaches to Treatment" at the 12th National HIV/AIDS Update Conference. March 14-17, 2000; San Francisco, California.

Strawford A. Resistance exercise and supraphysiologic androgen therapy in eugonadal men with HIV-related weight loss-a randomized controlled trial. Satellite symposium "Weight Loss and Wasting: Clinical and Community-based Approaches to Treatment" at the 12th National HIV/AIDS Update Conference. March 14-17, 2000; San Francisco, California.

Strawford A and others. Resistance exercise and supraphysiologic androgen therapy in eugonadal men with HIV-related weight loss, a randomized controlled trial. Journal of the American Medical Association 1999 April 14, 281(14):1282-1290.
 
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Fonz said:
And if you think this will affect his ridiculoius book sales, think again. If you've ever taken finanance courses........they'll most likely go up.

Fonz

I think it's funny that you would edit Nelson's sig line when the owner of the site put it there.

I think it's funny that you claim to know so much about oxandrolone, but have to rely on Ulter to explain your view on the subject.

I think its REALLY funny that you think a finance course would touch on anything directly related to controversy increasing book sales.
 
sk* said:


You are just abusing your "power."

-sk

LOL

Such power....... the power to actually try to get at the truth, and not let a guy obfuscate everything.

Fonz
 
Everyone should see this!

We are experiencing the melt-down of an egomaniac.

Essentially what he is saying is, he will keep my revenue hostage until everyone shuts up and agrees with him. Wow.

Fonz, I always knew you were an asshole but I'm starting to think you're psychotic too. This is a discussion board, not the Fonz Empire.

It's obvious fonz is embarrassed at being proven wrong, both in his science and through his actions and now he's having a little hissy fit. I'm sure he'll calm down soon.

As far as my signiture goes, you can shove it for all I care.
 
JibbyJabba said:


I think it's funny that you would edit Nelson's sig line when the owner of the site put it there.

I think it's funny that you claim to know so much about oxandrolone, but have to rely on Ulter to explain your view on the subject.

I think its REALLY funny that you think a finance course would touch on anything directly related to controversy increasing book sales.

Its called melodrama...but I guess you don't know what that is.

#1 You haven't been here at EF(And AF) long enough to know that I FIRST POSTED that anavar study like 2 years ago.

#2 Then Ulter came out and refuted it totally and completely with several peer-reviewed studies and to top it off charts and graphs.

i.e. I got my ass handed to me. :)

I'm just letting him do his thing with Ox. I know where the studies are, but I'd rather let Ulter post them. He likes shooting down Mooneys Ox argument's.

Fonz
 
Fonz, are you still taking fina?
 
I took the time to bold the points in question too. Come on guys, let's cut this BS and get back to discussing the data.

Fonz, what is your feedback for the second study I just posted?
 
So now ulter will be the deciding factor as to whether fonz will give me my ball back?

This just keeps getting better and better. Really, this is too good to be true.
 
Fonz said:
Its called melodrama...but I guess you don't know what that is.

You're not being melodramatic, you're being an asshole.

Fonz said:
#1 You haven't been here at EF(And AF) long enough to know that I FIRST POSTED that anavar study like 2 years ago.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I believed you the first time you said it happened.

Fonz said:
#2 Then Ulter came out and refuted it totally and completely with several peer-reviewed studies and to top it off charts and graphs.

i.e. I got my ass handed to me. :)

I'm just letting him do his thing with Ox. I know where the studies are, but I'd rather let Ulter post them. He likes shooting down Mooneys Ox argument's.

Fonz

Ok... we'll see, but refuting that Ox is more toxic than drol is different than concluding Ox is 100% harmless to the liver.

Will ulter also explain the whole finance comment to me as well? That one has me scratching my head...
 
Fonz, even if your were 100% right on this, you'd still look like flaming butthole.


But you're so wrong. That's the best part. :)
 
damn, I hate it when I get all caught up in one of these flame fests. I read the whole damn thing from start to finish. I gotta get a life.

"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?"
 
(not intended at anyone specifically).........

it takes a big man to apologize or admit his wrongdoings.
 
satchboogie said:
(not intended at anyone specifically).........

it takes a big man to apologize or admit his wrongdoings.

and it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

Sorry... trying to be funny.
 
Fonz said:


The reason I took down Nelson's signature is for him to actually learn to use what we humanoids call science to explain his "theories".

If he's able to BACK THEM UP within 24hrs, the signature will go back up.

I've come to realize you have to corner Nelson right into a deep dark corner to get him to actually TAKE A STAND ON SOMETHING, and not dilly-dally like he usually does.

And for all the rest of you, do shut up. Its time for Nelson to either PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

End of story.

And if you think this will affect his ridiculoius book sales, think again. If you've ever taken finanance courses........they'll most likely go up.

Fonz

For someone that claims to be so smart you dont make an awful lot of sense.
As Jibbyjabba said, you are on a power trip, end of story. You say that Nelson needs to mature?
 
Fonz said:


LOL

Such power....... the power to actually try to get at the truth, and not let a guy obfuscate everything.

Fonz

What are you trying to prove?

Here are the facts:

1. Nelson has melowed down in the last couple weeks since you guys were having your pissing contests.
2. Nelson posted this thread for whatever reason, and it wasn't even a slam on anyone and more like a profile of primo. Yea, he wants to sell books, so what?
3. You picked a couple statements in his original post and took it out of context, than proceeded to rip it apart in a "violent" manner.
4. The guy had not said anything to you. He had moved on from all the flaming and even JA and Nelson had stopped arguing for the time being, but than you come and start it off again.
5. Now you try to get to the buttom of the "truth" by editing his signature which apparently the admin of this site had put there. What's the "truth" though? That anavar is not so liver toxic? Even if so, do you actually realize that Nelson he was comparing the toxicity of primo to anavar? Are you going to tell us that primo is more liver toxic than anavar?

When this all is said and done, this was a really good post but now it's not. It could have continued on being a good post though, if you had made your comments nicely.

-sk
 
very true.

nelson has at least one thing in common with EVERYBODY on this board and that is the passion and admiration for the growing sport of bodybuilding.

in his long career in the sport he's gathered much more info than most of us can even imagine!

so you dont agree with him. so fuckin what??

now... if there are flaws in his studies and or presentations it is understandable that they be posted. but to flame him for his idea/theories based on personal experience isnt acceptable.

i think we should stick to hard evidence and debate that.
 
satchboogie said:
very true.

nelson has at least one thing in common with EVERYBODY on this board and that is the passion and admiration for the growing sport of bodybuilding.

in his long career in the sport he's gathered much more info than most of us can even imagine!

so you dont agree with him. so fuckin what??

now... if there are flaws in his studies and or presentations it is understandable that they be posted. but to flame him for his idea/theories based on personal experience isnt acceptable.

i think we should stick to hard evidence and debate that.

You know, I was one of the first to ask him for his "studies" when he made posts like "clomid sucks" threads, but what kinds of studies does fonz want for this thread? It was just a nice post, he wasn't even trying to prove anything to anyone.

-sk
 
satchboogie said:
SK...

i hear you about the clomid issue.
i would never run post cycle with anything but clomid but there was a poll a few months back in which many users reported not liking clomid.

many also reported that they kept most gains without clomid.
so who knows?

the bottom line is that the flaming and bullshit must stop.

i choose to not get involved with that bullshit, and if somebody flames me i just ignore that thread alltogether.

The last thing I wanna do is argue on the clomid issue, lol. That's been done 100 times here. :)

-sk
 
SK...

i hear you about the clomid issue.
i would never run post cycle with anything but clomid but there was a poll a few months back in which many users reported not liking clomid.

many also reported that they kept most gains without clomid.
so who knows?

the bottom line is that the flaming and bullshit must stop.

i choose to not get involved with that bullshit, and if somebody flames me i just ignore that thread alltogether.
 
satchboogie said:
SK...

i hear you about the clomid issue.
i would never run post cycle with anything but clomid but there was a poll a few months back in which many users reported not liking clomid.

many also reported that they kept most gains without clomid.
so who knows?

the bottom line is that the flaming and bullshit must stop.

i choose to not get involved with that bullshit, and if somebody flames me i just ignore that thread alltogether.

now that would be great if everyone had this philosophy... Which is not the case. However maybe they can try to be more civilized?
 
sk* said:


What are you trying to prove?

Here are the facts:

1. Nelson has melowed down in the last couple weeks since you guys were having your pissing contests.
2. Nelson posted this thread for whatever reason, and it wasn't even a slam on anyone and more like a profile of primo. Yea, he wants to sell books, so what?
3. You picked a couple statements in his original post and took it out of context, than proceeded to rip it apart in a "violent" manner.
4. The guy had not said anything to you. He had moved on from all the flaming and even JA and Nelson had stopped arguing for the time being, but than you come and start it off again.
5. Now you try to get to the buttom of the "truth" by editing his signature which apparently the admin of this site had put there. What's the "truth" though? That anavar is not so liver toxic? Even if so, do you actually realize that Nelson he was comparing the toxicity of primo to anavar? Are you going to tell us that primo is more liver toxic than anavar?

When this all is said and done, this was a really good post but now it's not. It could have continued on being a good post though, if you had made your comments nicely.

-sk

This is his 5th or 6th Primo post(Nelsons).

I'm getting tired of this BS.

He does it for ATTENTION.

Are you guys all sleeping or what?

Damn..... :)

1,2 maybe 3 fine. But after 4.....my patience runs out.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


This is his 5th or 6th Primo post(Nelsons).

I'm getting tired of this BS.

He does it for ATTENTION.

Are you guys all sleeping or what?

Damn..... :)

1,2 maybe 3 fine. But after 4.....my patience runs out.

Fonz

The irony of your sig line is not lost on me.
 
JibbyJabba said:


The irony of your sig line is not lost on me.

Do everybody a favour, and address your comments to someone who actually cares.

My ideas super-seed Nelsons by about a zillion to one.

Fonz
 
JJ, you know that Fonz is no idiot. In fact, he's one of the more knowledgeable members of this board. No need to post links to dictionary definitions for improper spelling. Also, Nelson is a big boy who can fight his own battles.
 
Sk, I think you're being overly draconian.
 
Juice Authority said:
JJ, you know that Fonz is no idiot. In fact, he's one of the more knowledgeable members of this board. No need to post links to dictionary definitions for improper spelling. Also, Nelson is a big boy who can fight his own battles.

Fonz is also a big boy - with abilities to edit anything I say, I might add... so I don't think you need to take up for him.

I don't think he's an idiot.

I think the little mistake he makes, that I am quick to point out, are not excusable for someone as condescending as him.

Maybe I am being a bit draconian here... just because I think Fonz is a troglodyte, I suppose that's no reason to obfuscate the thread.
 
JibbyJabba said:

I think the little mistake he makes, that I am quick to point out, are not excusable for someone as condescending as him.

Maybe I am being a bit draconian here... just because I think Fonz is a troglodyte, I suppose that's no reason to obfuscate the thread.

We're all guilty of that including you. I mean come on Bro, you're not exactly the most humble member of this board and neither is Nelson.
 
Juice Authority said:


We're all guilty of that including you. I mean come on Bro, you're not exactly the most humble member of this board and neither is Nelson.

You are correct, but If I am being condescending, I make sure to use words correctly. And I never talk down to people (save maybe yourself during the whole "Dbol raises test debate") to the extent that I have seen Fonz do on this thread.
 
JibbyJabba said:
You are correct, but If I am being condescending, I make sure to use words correctly. And I never talk down to people (save maybe yourself during the whole "Dbol raises test debate") to the extent that I have seen Fonz do on this thread.

It just seems that when someone is having an altercation with Nelson you're quick to defend him to the point where the altercation is no longer with Nelson since you've basically stepped up to be his spokesman. All I was saying is that Nelson is more than capable of verbally (in this case) defending himself. He's not an idiot either. You're intelligent enough to go after Fonz's theories if you disagree with them instead of his character.
 
Juice Authority said:


You're intelligent enough to go after Fonz's theories if you disagree with them instead of his character.

Thats what is wrong with these situations, especially on this topic. Fonz immediately went after Nelson's character, assuming it is with impunity. If you dont agree with something someone posts then disagree with them but for the love of God keep the immature bullshit to a minimum.
 
Juice Authority said:
You're intelligent enough to go after Fonz's theories if you disagree with them instead of his character.

I actually might AGREE with his theory, but for the fact that he won't tell us what it is.

I think it's obvious that from the studies we've seen so far, and what we know about oral, 17AA steroids, anyone claiming that Anavar is safer on the liver than Primo bears the burden of proving their case rather than referring to the time he got his ass handed to him by Ulter.

Instead, he just makes mean-spirited and derogatory remarks to a person I respect. So... I was firing back.
 
Nelson Montana said:
As with any egomaniac, the rules don't apply to fonz. They only apply when they're in his favor. The fact that fonz himself made this rule also makes him a consumate hypocrite.

Yeah, JJ -- I too was wondering what he meant when he said my thinking was "cruel". But if you think about it, his misuse of the word draconian is so elegantly apropos. It's BIG. It's arcane. And most people wouldn't know what it means. Therefore, he throws it out there in an attempt to sound educated and intimidating. But much like his "research" it turns out to be incorrect and misleading -- and he doesn't even know it himself! How perfect is THAT?

Still using that same one study from 1991, eh fonz? Okay, let's play with your ball.

If you read that study you'll realize that the test was done on people with severe liver damage from alcohol abuse. The conclusions were done after the subjects obstained from drinking. Of course there was an improvement in liver values!

And I love this..."The ones who received NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTATION AND/OR oxandrolone showed more improvement." Well, that's a tad ambiguous, isn't it? AND/OR...? Which was it? BTW: "Ambiguous means vague, imprecise or contradictory.

The conlusion from that study is so flawed it's funny -- which is why there hasn't been another to back it up in 13 years. It's like saying; " Someone with a cold smoked 2 cigarettes a day for 2 weeks and cold symptoms subsided. It is therefore concluded that smoking cigarettes cures a cold."

But alas, this is the way it is with pretend scientists. The only people who think this guy has anything on the ball are those who don't know any better and are impressed with his babble and cut and pasting skills.

Ox is 17 AA. The very process causes liver damage. That's a fact fonz. Accept it. I believe even Juice Authority had a study that showed that. I'm sure there are many.

Now that he's been proven wrong, watch him close the thread.

Fonz is a joke. Wise up people.

0wn3d!!!

But seriously, that liver toxic study is a joke.. you can't use people with fucked up livers, take them off the sause, but give them something more mild.. and then show how their liver values got better.
 
JibbyJabba said:


I actually might AGREE with his theory, but for the fact that he won't tell us what it is.

I think it's obvious that from the studies we've seen so far, and what we know about oral, 17AA steroids, anyone claiming that Anavar is safer on the liver than Primo bears the burden of proving their case rather than referring to the time he got his ass handed to him by Ulter.

Instead, he just makes mean-spirited and derogatory remarks to a person I respect. So... I was firing back.

Ok, getting back to the topic at hand. Nelson's golden endorsement of Primo has some fundamental flaws in it. There are much cheaper alternatives to Primo that are more readily available and not so commonly faked. Structurally it is comparable to EQ yet that issue was never completely addressed. In fact, when that issue was raised by Jubei and myself it was avoided altogether. We still have not had a concrete answer to that.

If anything, Fonz brought this out in the open where the advantages of Primo over other compounds were more closely scrutinized. Unfortunately we never really got to that point due to three pages of non-stop character assassination. As for Anavar's toxicity to liver compared to Primo I would agree with Nelson. I've have posted not one but two studies that collaborate Nelson's position on that. I too would be interested to see Ulter's view on this.
 
I must say.. this is a damn entertaining thread. basically shows that you can really prove and disprove anything..

basically all you guys are doing is..

Listing the benefits of steroids..
listing the negative effects of the same steroids..

then trying to use one steroids benefits to counter the negative effects of another.

Its apples to oranges guys.. you'll never EVER win.

Nelson loves creating controvery.. never bends... and is a drama queen.

Fonz is full of himself, has used a shit load of roids supposedly yet still has the body of a 12 year old. He says its because he plays so much soccer... yea.. whatever.

As for myself... sure, I'm a newbie.. I don't have a ton of experience with this stuff.. so hey.. take my opinions with a grain of salt please.

Look to the Mods that DIDN'T post on this thread.. yet are still relying to members with sincere questions.. those are the people you want to get your advice from.

Fonz.. stop dropping Ulter's name, he wouldn't touch this flame fest with a 10 foot pole... not only do you look like you are 12 years old, you are acting like it too.
 
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Lestat said:
I must say.. this is a damn entertaining thread. basically shows that you can really prove and disprove anything..

basically all you guys are doing is..

Listing the benefits of steroids..
listing the negative effects of the same steroids..

then trying to use one steroids benefits to counter the negative effects of another.

Its apples to oranges guys.. you'll never EVER win.

Nelson loves creating controvery.. never bends... and is a drama queen.

Fonz is full of himself, has used a shit load of roids supposedly yet still has the body of a 12 year old. He says its because he plays so much soccer... yea.. whatever.

As for myself... sure, I'm a newbie.. I don't have a ton of experience with this stuff.. so hey.. take my opinions with a grain of salt please.

Look to the Mods that DIDN'T post on this thread.. yet are still relying to members with sincere questions.. those are the people you want to get your advice from.

Fonz.. stop dropping Ulter's name, he wouldn't touch this flame fest with a 10 foot pole... not only do you look like you are 12 years old, you are acting like it too.

For someone who recently started a thread in the Plat forum complaining about Fonz's flaming of Nelson your flame post above is the exact same thing you were just accusing Fonz of doing.
 
Juice Authority said:


For someone who recently started a thread in the Plat forum complaining about Fonz's flaming of Nelson your flame post above is the exact same thing you were just accusing Fonz of doing.

I'm just following the example of the moderators on this site.
 
Lestat said:
I
Nelson loves creating controvery.. never bends... and is a drama queen.

Fonz is full of himself, has used a shit load of roids supposedly yet still has the body of a 12 year old. He says its because he plays so much soccer... yea.. whatever.


This thread gets more hilarious by the second...lol:D
 
Concerning Primo. The only cycles when I would use it would be either a short cycle with high dosage of it (600mg or even more...) or a long "bridge"/mild cycle at 200-300mg (even 400mg for some). Cause Primobolan depot is a very mild product. In order to see some big gains in a long cycle, you need to take a shitload of it, which in return might in the long run touch your HPTA. Not to mention it's expensive as hell. This is why, mg/mg, $/$ Deca is way superior. Yeah some had bad experiences (lost of libido) but it remains among the top. No wonder why here Deca is still the most prescribed med for muscle loss.

I'm actually using Primo for a short cycle and like it, but I wouldnt run for more than 3 weeks cause A- too expensive, B- it would lose its main benefit (HPTA safe/side free).

Now concerning anavar. I've use it 4 times so far. First at 40-60mg ED with milk thistle, then 20-40mg ED for the other cycles. And my liver has always remained healthy. Of course, this is just my personal experience, but still, if you run Anavar at a reasonnable dosage (20-40mg ED) I doubt you would end up with a jaundice. I know for a fact that 3 weeks on winstrol at 50mg killed my BP and put my liver in the red....
 
satchboogie said:
i'm on week 4 of primo 400mg/deca 400mg and i must tell you that its looking like one of the best cycles i've ever done.

hard as a rock.
slight water retention.
good strength gains.

Post some pics!
 
i'm on week 4 of primo 400mg/deca 400mg and i must tell you that its looking like one of the best cycles i've ever done.

hard as a rock.
slight water retention.
good strength gains.
 
What a great thread. :rolleyes:

It's very simple to disagree with Nelson's idea of Primo superiority without the flames. If repetitive posts were always met with flames then we might have only 1 thread a week that didn't result in a flamefest.

Obviously he loves the shit. He gets good results from it. He prefers it over other roids. He doesn't like having to deal with side effects.

Now let's examine his post.

Nelson Montana said:
I know this has been mentioned, but it bears repeating.

He's aware that he's posted about the greatness of Primo before. Don't care for it? Then ignore the fucking thread. Vote with your posts, or the lack thereof. Tired of seeing Nelson's posts? Well I'm tired of seeing inane flamefests.

...


It comes down to protein synthesis. How much protein your muscles can utilize is what will determine how much muscle you grow. Of course, testosterone will increase protein synthesis too, but it will also increase weight, aggression, strength and libido, which makes it seem oh so more powerful than Primo.

Seems pretty true to me.


Butat the end of the line , 1000mgs of Primo will pt on more muscle than 1000mgs of T, and it'll do it with less suppression.

I don't know if a gram of Primo will put on more muscle than a gram of test, but I've never used those amounts of either. I think a more realistic comparison would be between 500mg of each, but then that's just nitpicking. I think 500mg of test will put on more muscle than 500mg of primo. How much of that is actually kept really depends on a variety of factors. Some people will keep most of those test gains; others will lose much of them while maintaining gains they get from primo. If you refuse to accept the FACT that people will respond differently then you have no place acting as any sort of authority on this board.


...


Enter Primo -- specifcally designed to be as low in androgens as possible. Primo does essentially one thing. It uses protein to repair -- which is exactly what you want. But how many times have you heard; "Aw, Primo's weak as shit." You know why people say that? Two reasons: One; They don't take in enough protein. Without protein the steroid has nothing to do. You must saturate your bloodstream with aminos. And two: They don't train hard enough. Without sufficient muscle breakdown the drug also has nothing to do. It must recognize trauma and seek to repair it. The result? More muscle.

Seems pretty well reasoned and logical to me. Consuming more protein on primo will help maximize gains. Pretty fundamental tenet of diet while using steroids in general. Intense training is also widely accepted as necessary for maximizing gains.


But of course, testosterone will give the illusion much more dramatically leading people to believe it's stronger. It isn't. It is harsher though. And cheaper, therefore attractive.

Testosterone's sides do in fact make it look stronger. Partly because it is in fact stronger. Those sides aren't for nothing. It's androgenic effects and anabolic effects are strong. And as a stronger androgen it is also harsher. So Nelson's point gets a little muddy here when he says test isn't stronger than primo. Strength of an androgen consists of many more factors than just muscular hypertrophy.


I'd have to say that only tren and maybe d-bol beats Primo in the pure muscle growth department, but 1000 mgs of d-bol a week is out of the question and considering tren's side effects, it too isn't the wisest choice.

Yes, both D-bol and tren are very effective in stimulating muscle growth. Yes, both are harsher than primo.


No sides. Can't convert to estrogen. Doesn't bloat. Isn't as hard on hair as people think. Harly suppressive. And builds quality muscle. Primo's the shit. I'm surprised more companies haven't made their own version.

Primo does have sides. All roids do. But it definitely has minimal sides when compared to other steroids.

So there we go. Nelson's post had a few flaws, but does it call for flames? EF was my favorite BB board because for the most part it didn't suffer from egotistical members/vets asserting their superiority over other members. There have been way too many threads that have gone to shit because of immaturity as of late. Flames of any kind destroy the board. It doesn't matter who it's by. Christ, even JA has stayed pretty cool in the midst of the flaming. He even posted studies supporting Nelson's statement that oxandrolone is hepatoxic. That's what should be expected. Posts should be made to discuss the topic at hand... ANABOLICS. The nature of your posts should not change based on who else is posting. Simply not posting is better than flaming.

Now back to the topic, anavar is a great compound and I agree that it's liver toxicity is greatly exaggerated, but as a 17aa, it DOES have a level of toxicity. This is a fact. Nelson stated that var is liver toxic. It is. He was flamed for this statement just for the sake of busting his balls. It's obvious. Nobody is being fooled. Not even ulter will come on here saying that var is completely safe for your liver. Whether its hepatoxicity is anything to worry about is an entirely different topic. At sane doses I really don't think it's much of an issue at all. And I seriously doubt anyone is going to run var at doses that would be dangerous just due to the price.
 
satchboogie said:
i'm on week 4 of primo 400mg/deca 400mg and i must tell you that its looking like one of the best cycles i've ever done.

hard as a rock.
slight water retention.
good strength gains.

200mg primo every 4 days, 37.5mg winstrol/day....feel like granite :p
 
DeepZenPill said:

So there we go. Nelson's post had a few flaws, but does it call for flames? EF was my favorite BB board because for the most part it didn't suffer from egotistical members/vets asserting their superiority over other members. There have been way too many threads that have gone to shit because of immaturity as of late. Flames of any kind destroy the board. It doesn't matter who it's by. Christ, even JA has stayed pretty cool in the midst of the flaming. He even posted studies supporting Nelson's statement that oxandrolone is hepatoxic. That's what should be expected. Posts should be made to discuss the topic at hand... ANABOLICS. The nature of your posts should not change based on who else is posting. Simply not posting is better than flaming.

Now back to the topic, anavar is a great compound and I agree that it's liver toxicity is greatly exaggerated, but as a 17aa, it DOES have a level of toxicity. This is a fact. Nelson stated that var is liver toxic. It is. He was flamed for this statement just for the sake of busting his balls. It's obvious. Nobody is being fooled. Not even ulter will come on here saying that var is completely safe for your liver. Whether its hepatoxicity is anything to worry about is an entirely different topic. At sane doses I really don't think it's much of an issue at all. And I seriously doubt anyone is going to run var at doses that would be dangerous just due to the price.

Excellent post. Your detailed response basically summarizes this whole discussion, including flames, in clear, concise, nice, neat orderly fashion. Very well written. Probably the best post so far on this very long thread. Karma to you!
 
Another good thread that degenerated due to insults. Reading this thread straight through as I see it: Nelson gave his opinion on a subject. Fonz disagreed with him and then personally insulted him in the process. It's getting really tiresome, Fonz. You're a very well-informed person but your ego gets in the way. Also, JA, considering what you and Nelson has been through I think it would be best to refrain from any personal comments whether it's meant in jest or not. Nerves are too frayed at this point. Nelson seems to be holding steady but only lashes out when provoked. It would be great if things could be kept civil and mature and discuss the topic at hand.
 
a friend of mine has 7 amps of schering primo left from a few years ago he said still good for 2 more years but he can't do anything with it what a waste I would pick EQ for primo replacement i like to see nelson try those human made eq and stop dissing on it just shoot it up and let us know what you think
 
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